Tuesday, September 9, 2014


One of my sociopathic friends sent this to me, written to her by one of her intimates:

You're arrogant, thinking way too highly of yourself. You're selfish. You're stubborn. You're an outright cum sucking cunt. You believe yourself to be untouchable. You bore easily. You're controlling and calculating. You're cold and distant. You are a serpent. You know how to dance and sing in just the right way in just the right key to make others memorized by you. It's effortless. So much so it's appalling You love feeling empowered and important. You need it more then you care to admit. You are a queen in your own world and you need no one - that alone making you all the more powerful. You'll find yourself a new batch of toys even though knowing, full well you can return to your old play things. Because we are all intoxicated by your poison. It's an addiction, I suppose, on my end. Every time I find myself a bit more immune. But I still get the kick - the hit - every now and then from the sting of your bite. I burn where you strike and ache when you don't. 

Guess I'm ok with that for now.

I still see a lot of confusion as to why a sociopath would want to "seduce" or "ruin someone". The answer is basically what was written above -- that is what we're looking for, however misguided. We would like to leave an indelible mark on someone, either positively or negatively. It's like someone carving their initials into new concrete at some posh resort. Or the early British explorers of the Pyramids and other Egyptian ruins carving their name next to already etched ankhs petroglyphs. In fact, why were the Egyptians spending so much time and energy building and engraving those monuments in the first place? Maybe for the sociopath to behave this way is juvenile. Maybe it is destructive. It is clearly self-interested and not very considerate. But it's also not so different from the desire to be loved -- the desire to feel like you matter a lot to at least one other person in this world. 


  1. Ooh sexi soci heart heart heart kiss kiss kiss

  2. Anon 1:21

    How does it fill to come first for once in your life

    1. i Always come first and she got to finish on here own

  3. During the Second World War, many American soldiers would leave
    grafitii in the places they'd been. They wrote: "Kilroy was here."
    They couldn't be real sociopaths because they probably would put their
    own unique signature on the wall. Sociopaths do NOT consider themselves like any other person.
    Killing someone to get ahead? That's nothing. The end DOES justify
    the means. It only matters if you can pull off your crime in a
    "respectable," concealed manner. Not like a grungy undisclipined serial
    murderer. The President automatically becomes the biggest serial
    killer of all. He is a respected ORGINAZED criminal. Not an ill educated
    low class street thug.

    1. "He is a respected ORGINAZED criminal."

      lol at "respected". He could be replaced by a fake plastic dog shit and people would not notice the difference.

    2. LOL that is true hardly anyone would notice or people would just think your joking HA HA

  4. This sounds like a guy I know when he found out that the girl he was dating was seeing someone else on the side because he was too boring.

    > We would like to leave an indelible mark on someone, either positively or negatively.

    Is that because the sociopath hopes that by leaving a mark that person will love them? Like it’s their way of trying to impress them or something?

    1. It is our way of obtaining immortality. Like the national obsession to be on TV or create a lasting work of art. But it is more than that. I grew up never being the center of attention. I did not learn adaptive camouflage until I was 13. I could get away with being odd as a child but in my middle years without adaptive strategy I kind of stood out as the odd girl.

      I like most young girls wanted the dream of popularity they sell all the kids. I lucked out in that the summer between leaving Jr. High and High School my parents brought me to a Renaissance Faire. I picked up the accent in an hour, dressed myself in costume and became a new person. One day. I returned every weekend and made friends. People liked the "new me". Cute boys followed my new found confident self around like puppies. I had an epiphany. I could do this when I went to high school. It did not matter that many kids already new and disliked me. I would not be the same person. I would make them forget the old me and appreciate the new one.

      I did just that. I made a new me that was popular and beautiful and talented and smart. People are drawn to that. It is just their nature. One of the most fascinating features of a high functioning sociopath is our Devil May Care attitude and fearlessness. We are creative and intelligent and we can REALLY listen to what you are saying. I am fascinated by people and truly interested in what they have to say. We can make you feel like the most important, beautiful person on the planet. Yes it is addictive. You want to please us because we reward you for it.

      People would put up with behavior from me that they would not tolerate from any other person. The made excuses for me and kept coming back for more pleasure and pain. Then I had my spiritual awakening. I stopped causing the pain and simple gave the happiness part of it. Here is the funny part.. Now I have more people than ever. It is no more real to me. I could still walk away tomorrow without a second glance, but I won't.

      I stuck out at and discarded people because I wanted the part of myself I gave to them back. Today I can share myself. I can give. I still have that urge to lash out, to manipulate, to destroy for the pure joy of power. But I have come to see that type of power as an illusion. I don't need power today, I have integrity in place of ego.

      Strangers still flock to me. I am still often the center of attention in the room but that is because today I have what a new friend told me was a spark inside that shines out for all to see. I make my mark today by making people's lives a little better instead of a lot worse. Using the same skills I learned and turning my sociopathic "deficiencies" into assets.

      People will remember most sociopaths they meet. Pain fixes things in human memory. But people always remember me too. They remember I helped them THROUGH the pain. We are a natural drug. Ask yourself my brother and sister drugs though, we can be a cure or we can be a poison. The choice is ours. What do you choose to be today? Power is a delusion, you are an ant on a spec of dust spinning through infinity. But you can reach and help another ant and make infinity a better place for all. Try it. You might like it.

    2. I must admit the writer hit a nerve with me. I remember getting similar responses from lover's and "friends". That old thrill came spinning back. Power is a drug to me. A wise man once told me that in a relationship the one who loves the least holds all the power. You can see where the sociopath's problem stems from here. We exhibit behaviors that people find attractive, we reward sycophantic behaviors toward us, we punish when people do not do our bidding. If you love us you are at an immediate disadvantage that you will never overcome. You are intoxicated by us and we are intoxicated by the power you willingly give us. Intoxication causes people to do stupid things. The only way out is to quit cold turkey. Both the sociopath and their codependent. But most won't quit. Not until their pain threshold is breached. The "victim" will, most likely, learn form the pain and not find a new socio to play with. We, however, have a very high tolerance for pain and don't learn from it so we will wander off in search of a new playmate and start the game anew.

      Just glad I have found a new game. I don't HAVE to hurt people. I choose a different path. Do I miss the rush sometimes like when i read something like that? Yes. But I can get that back any time I want. Just for today though, I choose to be free.

    3. I seriously have diarrhea of the brain today. (Can't stop writing)

      One other thing of importance that M.E. pointed out today was that sociopaths have the same desires and needs as normatives. It is how we go about filling those needs that causes problems in our own lives and the lives of those around us. The more narcissistic a person is the more they will damage those around them in the desire to fulfill what should be normal human needs. Ego tells us we deserve more than we actually need. Like having a gaping hole in your soul. You try stuffing everything you can into it regardless of the collateral damage and it still never fills up.
      So you grab for more. You distract yourself from it with games and entertainment. Unfortunately for the populous at large, for a sociopath, power and "fame" is the best game in town and in this game people are the playing pieces.

      One of the best examples is the spree killer. Not always a sociopath often they are another flavor of Narc, but what they want is to be remembered. They don't care that it will be with hatred and disgust. Their need to make their mark overwhelms any remaining humanity. Two flavors do they come in. Retaliation killers where they destroy those who they perceive have wronged them: Institution (workplace, police station) or people (their family, sorority girls, Jews). Scorekeepers those who target schools, theaters, and daycare's or similar crowded places where they will be able to get the highest body count before being stopped. They KNOW they are not going to get away with it. The game is to get the highest body count before and make the news. To be known. To become a household name. To take all the pain inside and spread it around to as many other people as possible. To prove their worth. This last statement is perhaps the saddest.

      When I saw people as playing pieces I had no reason not to use them to get that power and infamy. It was never enough. Because power and fame/infamy were not what I really needed. It was not my ego that needed to be fed but my soul. You feed the soul through good works. You feed it by having a moral code and not deviating from it. You live with integrity and perform the duties that best serve others. I am at peace today. I act with compassion instead of greed. I was lucky/blessed to find the people that led me to here. I can measure my worth by living a life of purpose with integrity today.

    4. Puppy Basket- if that's diarrhea of the brain I'd say: keep it coming.

      This is really good stuff. I think you are incredibly wise. In these last posts you have provided a road map for an antisocial personality to become a prosocial sociopath.

    5. “It is our way of obtaining immortality.”

      I see it more like letting people know “I was here first.” I see having kids as obtaining immortality.

      “I don't HAVE to hurt people.”

      What if you hurt people by doing absolutely nothing? I’m naturally aloof and I’ve gone out with some women that have gotten really mad at me because I don’t “show enough interest in [whatever]”. Sometimes I just don’t care but sometimes I feel that asking about it is prying into their personal matters and think it’s best not to say anything about it until they bring it up. Just sitting on the couch and watching tv has made them mad.

    6. c i believe that you should pry into their personal lives for me i like it because then i can hold it over their heads and use it without them knowing like if their self conscious you can use it to get ur way they have daddy issues you can act like a father figure and then you can use them like i knew this one girl she had daddy issues and mommy issues i acted like her father in some ways and acted like i understood her its easy when you just don’t care and it was funny she had trust issues also because of some fiancĂ© she loved bla bla bla eventually i got tired and she got really mad at me for leaving her she said i was just like every one in her life n when she told me this i just started to laugh n i walked away from it it was so funny how mad she got and sometimes you can guilt people into feeling sorry for you like i crated this world to this one girl in which my life was soo terrible ha ha she would do anything to try to bring me up and then i lost interest and my parents told me true love this and romantic that uhhhhh high school love is so sweet bla bla bla so when i lost interest she slept with someone else i didn’t care i was on my way out it was weird she got mad at me for not being so mad at her for cheating so then she tried to pick a fight with me n i pulled out my arsenal of her insecurities it was so funny when she started to cry and try to get me back ha ha ha ha stupid empaths their so easy to hurt and get ur way

    7. Puppy B, Your story reminds me of myself around the time I was in Jr. High School. The older I got, the more I realized my intelligence threatened people, and my nerdiness made me an easy target. So I observed what other kids naturally did to try to fit in, and I did that instead. I was a quick study, so it wasn't hard to pick up those things. It's not that every part of me was fake, just the parts that people tended to like.

    8. Axl, sooner or later you'll meet your competition, your match and your challenge. Your young, there's many experiences ahead of you. I smh that there's sociopaths who kinda act like you - that kinda disgrace the rest of the sociopaths who don't do this type of thing, or maybe they do, but not so much boast about it openly. No offense intended ok, really - but you just sound like a cocky kid who needs to grow up, that's all - and needs to get his little high school fun out. I get it. Tell the girl kindly that you think she's great, and fun, and it was good while it lasted, but its best to go your separate ways. Don't laugh at her. It doesn't earn you any points even if she Fucks the foot ball team. Build your reputation a little in kindness. When you keep laughing at her, she keeps coming back. Duh. You like the chase, but as soon as they show interest , do you loose interest? Try catching them and keeping them, that's the true game, keeping your prize. But your young. You need to get the play outta your system.

      Thanks for giving me insight in what you revealed. You taught me something. I'm laughing a little..

      I hope your laughing a little too. ;)

  5. Once you learned the lesson, that there are people who seek outlets for their sadism and you think it is "love" the best thing is to go away immediately. Or at least, as the fog cleared. You can sort things out later, but not with the "Psychopath" because he is interested to play more cat and mouse games.

    At least it was never boring :-)

    1. great point. Once the target understands the true nature of the sociopath the spell has been broken.

    2. German, boredom -- yeah I was not bored until the end. I ended it because I lost interest in the unending, unpleasant games that I did not choose or want to play. I was truly bored, much more than hurt.

    3. "Once the target understands the true nature of the sociopath the spell has been broken."

      I wouldn't completely agree to that. Yes, it puts them on edge, makes them suspicious of you, and makes things a bit harder for you. But don't think the spell is so weak to break easily. You thinking that you've gotten a hang on things because you've figured out what the person is is just another aspect of the spell. In someways you place barriers and put your guards up in the places you think you should because you think you know their game, but that just means that while everyone is manning the gates, you've let the back door opened.

      I've mentioned in another thread. One thing I used to do to up the difficulty level when seducing a girl is little by little dropping hints of what I am. Might be in forms of "Freudian slips" or installing the idea in their head one way or another. What makes it more difficult is that now you have to go around and around in their heads looking for that one door they left open. Once they fall for you though, they usually fall harder if they know you're a sociopath, so if you have no intentions of hurting them watch out with this game.

  6. This topic is one of the big points that people don't usually grasp about what sociopaths want in relationships. At least I haven't gotten a grip on it yet.

    What properties make people appealing targets to mark indelibly? Surely some are more worthy than others. It's not anonymous like being on TV.

    1. along those same lines, what does 'intimacy' mean?

    2. My hunch is that sociopaths prefer to "mark" people who satisfy a need for respect that they get when that person buys into whatever image the sociopath has constructed to hook that person.

      They are less interested in people they consider beneath them somehow unless that person is symbolic of a person or experience that left a bad taste in the sociopath's mouth.

      Intimacy, in my mind, is when individuals are able to both take off their masks (all of us, not just sociopaths have some sort of mask we wear for the public). Because most sociopaths would tell you that they have no true self, only masks, the value of intimacy is exceedingly difficult to grasp. There is great comfort in feeling that someone knows all of your secrets and loves you deeply.

      For the sociopath, there is no possibility of revealing all of the secrets of a true self because they are forced to exist in a series of shapeshifting false selves that if understood in aggregate make the other party's trust impossible.

      So the sociopath keeps desirable targets around as long as possible to achieve the closest feeling to love they can approximate: intensity. They prefer a positive obsession but a negative obsession also works if the target is willing to act as a glutton for punishment rather than just walk away in disgust.

    3. "There is great comfort in feeling that someone knows all of your secrets and loves you deeply."

      my partner ~ tears :'( happy tears :D

    4. Some problems cannot be solved. If you have blue eyes, you have blue eyes. If your dying of cancer, in the last few days of your life, on hospice, that's not going to change. Let's face to truth here. Some problems cannot be changed or solved.

    5. Hey everyone is born with blue eyes. The colour is added as we age, and it can be removed so that your eyes are blue again. I'm sure the same could be said if you wanted to add brown to your eye. If you can remove the brown, you should be able to add it.

    6. i disagree if someone know all my secrets of would not be able to trust them they might do what i do use them against me i like to get other secrets n insecurities not the other way around

    7. I say intimacy, like Mach mentioned, is being able to share things with another person on a private level. Do things, say things to/with each other that you wouldn't do with most people, things the private you really enjoys or believes. Like Puppy (I think it was her) mentioned, sociopaths do have a default self, the one they are when alone, when there is no need to wear a mask because there is no one to where it for. When the person you are with begins to open up to you emotionally, if you are able to open up to them on an equal level, about things you normally wouldn't that it what I would call being intimate. Since a sociopath can't really open up on an emotional level, opening up on a mental level will do. Talk about you thought processes, how you rationalize things, your philosophy, how you became someone who thinks that way.

      I don't know about other sociopaths but for me secrets aren't a problem. I'm not the type to volunteer info about myself but, I have nothing to hide if someone directly asks me about something, e.g, if I pretend to be having a good time when I'm not and the person asks me "Hey, honestly are you having a good time?" I say no.

    8. another awesome post Tii.

    9. What properties make people appealing targets to mark indelibly? Surely some are more worthy than others.

      Hard to say for others Dr. I think everyone has their own criteria. I was lazy, I would let my victims come to me. I did insist on intelligence though. Stupid people were no challenge, annoying to be around and therefore no fun. I like Tii was/am very honest in my relationships. I was testing I think, see how much pain the other person was willing to put up with to keep me. The more you degraded yourself and threw away your moral code to stay with me the more you proved your love. Most people have lines they think they won't cross, I liked to lure people over them just to prove I could. Of course after I took them to pieces they were no longer of interest. After I had my awaking I began to do the opposite. Try to help people to live up to their potential. Help them deal with their problems instead of creating more. Help them achieve goals and find spirituality if they wanted instead of debasing them. It is both more challenging and more fulfilling.

    10. Puppy Basket, I read your words slowly to let them sink in.

      Before your awakening you write that your aim was to get a target to 'throw away [their] moral code', which looks similar to what Anon8:35 writes 'He's to the point where he's willing to cross society's and his own ethical lines.'

      From my foreign perspective it looks like both of you may be hinting at a desire to implant sociopathic traits in the other person, since both of you were crossing boundaries and moral codes when you targeted and debased. It looks like a kind of mirroring where you (temporarily) moulded the target's character into one closer to your own -- in terms of disregarding and crossing boundaries. Does that resonate?

      I am not sure what you meant regarding the past in 'I like Tii was/am very honest in my relationships.' What is the relationship between manipulation and honesty in your mind?

    11. Tii, does it relax you to be intimate in the way you describe? Does it exite you? What do you like about it? Do you rank it below being alone/in your meadow?

    12. Doc,
      She meant "I, like Tii, was/am..."

      Those types of talks neither relax nor excite me. But I am usually relaxed when I have those types of talks. I don't usually have them while walking around or doing things, usually it's when I'm with a close friend/s, we sit back relax, unwind, and the conversation usually heads in that direction by itself. I wouldn't rate it higher or below being alone in the meadows because it's not something relaxing to do, it's something to do when relaxing. In other words it would be the type of talk I have when relaxing with a friend alone in the meadows.

  7. I like it when a man aches for me. I like his yearning for me. I like to engage him and make it a challenge for him to obtain me, although it's really just a game for me to see how much of him I can get get him to give me. I like knowing that he can't concentrate at work, that he can't sleep well at night and that he craves me until he thinks he's going to lose control and start pushing MY (mostly feigned) boundaries. He's to the point where he's willing to cross society's and his own ethical lines.

    Is that about power? Absolutely. But power comes in many forms. Presidents have power, bosses have power, parents have power, but their power is enforceable. When I achieve power over a man in the way I just described, it's power that's been given willingly. Plus, I always feel a figurative heat inside that I haven't found anywhere else. Feeling a man's lust for me is fantastic.

    That's shallow, I know. But it's also honest.


    1. Thanks Anon, I think these kind of questions are often stuck inside people's head after they have been toyed with or even ruined.

      I appreciate your honesty. I think it's the only way for others to get insight. Judgements like shallowness really distract from the clarity of the matter. Of course people are reluctant sometimes to share their POV because they know that society will turn them into outcasts if other people really knew.

      At least that's how I see it.

    2. DoctorSciFi:

      My comment about shallowness may have read as a judgment, but it really was part of the "clarity" you wanted, in my opinion. I think my own perception of what I do is relevant because it speaks to whether or not I'm fully cognizant of my intentions and how deep my feelings about it go.

      It's absolutely shallow to use my looks and manipulations the way I do. I never really take the time to get to know anything about them that doesn't serve a direct purpose because I just don't care enough. I only scratch just enough of the surface to dig a hole straight to what makes them tick. The rest is background noise.


    3. "I think my own perception of what I do is relevant"

      Aha, Anon -- point taken. It does speak to your self-awareness, whatever a self is as @Mach writes about. So it adds clarity -- absolutely.

      But still my point has some validity. If the socio speaks honestly to those in their close circle, they lose their power, so that doesn't happen. There are a few places on the web, like here, where a frank discussion can take place.

      Also anon, is this related to why you post as anon rather than using a name? Maybe it isn't, it's just a question.

      And about 'digging a hole straight to what makes them tick," the targets really do pick up on being seen and this gives the illusion of being deeply appreciated, sometimes it looks like love, or what Mach and Superchick write: "There is great comfort in feeling that someone knows all of your secrets and loves you deeply."

      Maybe this is why socios do let their mask slip, do ruin in fact. Maybe it's also the driver for that? Not just power -- "the closest feeling to love they can approximate: intensity." intensity and the game of letting the mask slip to be known?

    4. DrSciFie:

      I'll try to answer your questions/comments in order.

      I just sign my post replies here with "N" at the end. I'm just as distinguishable from others that way. Your pseudonym is at the top; mine's the bottom. No underlying reason, except for the fact that it's just easier.

      With the exception of a small number of loved ones, people are mostly like carbon copies of each other to me. Their surface is pretty much the same. Without digging a hole to what makes them tick, they seem like clones to me. Very few people, relatively speaking, have real depth. So many are obnoxious bathroom mirror selfies and macho bad boys out trying to chase down someone to prove to OTHERS just how desirable they are.

      When (some) sociopaths talk about "mirroring", I understand what they're saying, but I think I go about the same goal with a slightly different method. I more so think of it as shaping and molding. I'm not necessarily shaping them, though. I'm usually shaping myself to make me a perfect fit inside whatever their gaps are and to fulfill the things they crave yet lack. Knowing you've just seeped into someone like that is definitely intense.

      To be fair, I should point out that I don't quite score high enough on the scale to be a sociopath. Same for NPD and HPD, although the only reason I score so high for HPD is because of my extreme vanity. You won't find me making those kinds of embarrassing emotional displays that are usually attributed to people with HPD, though. And to be honest, I don't really know what I am, other than a product of my childhood environment and my unwillingness to let go of a lot of bitterness stemming from it.


    5. N, I find it awesome to read your and other's post, which lead to persisten questions I've had -- trying to dispel grey clouds of the discomfort of having shared an experience with what seems like an alien, incomprehensible being.

      About "small number of loved ones" -- how do you define loved ones -- your feelings and thoughts about them vs. clones?

    6. DrSciFie:

      My children, my husband and my mother are my loved ones.

      I do have emotional empathy, but it's just very low for people outside of the ones I mentioned. I also have to work at it with others, whereas it comes naturally and automatically towards them.

      From the moment I found out I was pregnant with my first child, I made the decision that my children would experience childhood at almost a complete 180° from what I had. I knew that the destruction that my childhood caused me and the lasting bitterness, resentment and anger that still simmers inside of me was something I had to keep them from ever experiencing.

      They have an innocence I lost very early. They have stability in SO many areas that I never experienced. They have a father I never had. They're absolutely whimsical compared to the flat out ball of nerves and anxiety I was at their age, due to many reasons. The peace, the calm and innocence they have is something I'll protect at any cost.

      I've simply always loved my husband.

      My mother was both directly and indirectly responsible for a lot of what happened to me as a child, but her intentions were never malicious and I give her her due reverence.

      People in the outside world? I just plain don't have the energy or desire to feel much of anything beyond the bare minimum for them. With some, it's basically a cold indifference because they're all so much the same to me. I believe it has a lot to do with my cynicism.


    7. N , my husband would really resonate with your words. And so do I because I get to feel the situation and empathize with things that happened to you both.

      His father was present, but religiously very tough on the boys. My partner then left at a young age because he couldn't follow and conform to their strict rules any longer. I believe this is where his antisocial traits sprang root inside. The legalistic world view of religion was tough for him to follow.

      But he's my kind of perfection in a imperfect world that I love dearly. He has always stayed consistent with me. His love is always shown by action in taking care of us. Never once has he swayed in his admiration and dedication to me or the children. He follows through with us, I'm lucky to have a best friend like him.

      "My mother was both directly and indirectly responsible for a lot of what happened to me as a child, but her intentions were never malicious and I give her her due reverence."

      Well said. :)

      "People in the outside world? I just plain don't have the energy or desire to feel much of anything beyond the bare minimum for them. With some, it's basically a cold indifference because they're all so much the same to me. I believe it has a lot to do with my cynicism. "

      Another tidbit that sounds like my husband. Actually it all sounds exactly like how he would be talking to me if we brought up his upbringing.

      You seem like a beautiful person, mother and wife.

    8. Superchick:

      That last line was very generous, all things considered. So thank you.

      Question about your husband: Has he ever see a mental health professional? I'm interested to know since you see us having similar backgrounds.

      My mom took me to a "Christian counselor" when I was aged 13 and after a few visits, he decided that I was out of his scope of abilities and sent me straight to a psychiatrist. He told my mom to run, don't walk in reference to how quickly she should make the appointment.

      I sat and talked to this psychiatrist for 45 minutes on my first visit and he spent 15 minutes talking to my mom in private. He gave me a prescription for Imipramine for secondary nocturnal enuresis (bed wetting). I went to two more sessions. He spoke to my mother at length after that third visit and she told me I was never going back there.

      I still don't know what he said to her either time he spoke to her. She never would say. If I had to guess, I'd bet he told her just how dark my thoughts were. My mother was the QUEEN of head-in-the-sand. Close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and say lalala and it makes everything go away!


    9. N, the doc he saw was a doc in their parents church a long long time ago. He was a mental health professional. He revealed aspd to them. This doctor was good friends with the family and was good-standing with the people. My partner has fond memories of him, kind humble man. But he died of cancer. Has never seen a health professional since then though.

      I'd be curious to know what your doc said to your mother too if I was in your shoes.

  8. As a self-aware sociopath (psychopath) I think it has to do with the following:

    The sense of self that the sociopath has is that he is the manipulator of others. He wants others to do things - eg he wants a teacher to fall in love with him. That desire just comes out of nowhere, but the sociopath thinks of it as "his" will. Simultaneously, it occurs to him what he needs to do to try to make it happen - the sociopath thinks of this plan as "his" plan. There's uncertainty and doubt as to whether or not it will work out. The socipath tries to do things. When it does work out, the sociopath gets a huge feeling of joy. The world has confirmed that he is the master manipulator, full of power. Of course, it is an illusion. If it was really true, the sociopath could make you do what he wants the way he can move his right hand when he wants. There'd be no doubt as to control - it would be absolute. And given that the sociopath doesn't control his desires or the manipulative impulses that spring into his mind, he isn't in control of that either. The illusion of free will and power is only that - but again and again the sociopath deceives himself, feeling really good in the process, and getting addicted to those good feelings.

    1. That's really interesting because it helps explain why the sociopath has such a negative reaction to having someone figure out his con. Once the con has been exposed, the so called master manipulator has lost. It's the ultimate shame spiral.

    2. Anon; 'The world has confirmed that he is the master manipulator, full of power.' and Mach 'master manipulator has lost.'

      Not to trivialize the matter but it sounds like the joy of a competitive student who gets the highest grade in the class on a Calculus vs. the defeat they would experience if they failed the test. Is that a close approximation or totally off?

    3. These might look like stupid questions but I'll ask anyway:

      1. 'As a self-aware sociopath (psychopath) ' -- what is it precisely that distinguishes a self-aware sociopath from one who isn't.

      2. Do either type of sociopaths experience shame?

    4. It may seem trivial to individuals who are motivated by different things than the sociopath, but the sociopath is the ultimate sore loser. "Win or die" seems to be the philosophy. In addition, having someone figure out the con means risking that that person will expose the sociopath as a fraud. That's why you see the intensity of response. (only a guess, I'm a journalist, not an MD or PHD)

      I will take a stab at answering your next two questions but do not think my answer is definitive- I hope others will respond because I am merely sharing a hunch to continue the dialogue.

      My take is: If you judge a sociopath by antisocial motivations that are translated into actions (not impulses or thoughts- but all actions- not just those they get caught for) I would suspect that there is far more blurring of the axis II disorders than one might suspect. Sociopaths like to think they are largely emotionless - but yet they have very strong destructive impulses. That seems pretty emotional to me which is why I buy into the theory that many male patients who actually have borderline personality disorder are diagnosed as sociopaths/psychopaths/antisocial.

      Shame strikes me as being emotion that is both very strong but most often difficult to locate or understand, so it is released through cathartic actions that are taken because of compulsion.

      The mechanism that switches the shame to destructive impulses/compulsions lies beneath consciousness in sociopaths who are not terribly self aware. All they know is that they receive satisfaction from doing a certain sort of bad thing.

      A more self aware sociopath has likely done a fair amount of introspection and has a better grip on understanding where his/her impulses are generated. That's why they can hold their tempers better if it behooves them to do so.

    5. Nothing in this thread is trivial to me. I have tried to free myself of as many preconceived notions as I can because I wasn't getting anywhere. It's like solving a mystery perhaps... going to the starting point, or at least a reasonably unbiased pov.

      My take on this is that some people with psychopathic brain/emotional patterns an attitude to life (AlL)-- as puppy basket defines it -- experience shame and some do not.

      And then about the ponderous subject of self -- what is self-awareness, introspection -- is it more than getting a grip on where impulses come from -- that's a big part of it is seems as Mach writes, but is there more to it?

    6. at the risk of getting spiritual- there's the soul.

      Carl Jung did the best job I know of delineating a person's conscious and unconscious selves. One of his ideas is that we all have a Shadow side that is split from consciousness. Therapy, introspection and observations from others can help us make our Shadow smaller by bringing new understandings to consciousness.

      Jung definitely operates from a Judeo Christian background so much of his thinking about a soul/core self derives its presuppositions on this version of morality. That said, he's far from doctrinaire and is quite mystical. He's open to many forms of spirituality that modern day evangelical Christians would be terrified to consider, which I think speaks to his open-mindedness.

    7. so true @Mach

      Jung said, that the shadow (or dark side) is a normal part of what you are, but you don't want to accept it as a part of your personality. The way out of the duality is to be in peace and accept your shadows as much as your "bright side". Which can be very hurtful.

      Than you need not to prove anymore, that you are good enough. Competition will end and you will heal.

      So for me self-love or acceptance is be aware of your positive and negative traits, of your light and your shadow.

      The shadow is for me like a treasure you have to take care for, to experience, to "love", to understand, to accept, to examine.

      Than - I think - you need no defense mechanism and manipulation anymore. Maybe I am wrong. Idk.

      I try to be aware of projections. Everything I don't like on others and I am blaming or judge them for it, might be a hint of my own "shadow"

      Also I think, you can't become 100% "shadow-free", if yes, than you are a Buddha ;)

      Or maybe "Psychopaths" are people who accept their dark side, but don't accept their light (joking)

    8. Realizing there are drives in us that are not fully conscious and may be hidden for all kinds of reasons -- what German and Mach write is illuminating and I can see how it could be healing.

      About "Psychopaths" are people who accept their dark side, but don't accept their light (joking)" -- it does not seem so much a joke to me. I'd say this means that it could be the dark side becomes the conscious one -- an inversion where light becomes unconscious and the Shadow dominates consciousness. I am not familiar with Jung's work, so I don't know if such a scheme is even possible in his framework.

    9. Interesting thought. Ja, I was thinking about, what you have said. Maybe it is like this "We want to be the best "good" people, as they want to be the best "worst" people. Both is competition and egocentric.


      As far as I understand that Jung concept in my non-professional way, a "shadow" for a "Psychopath" would be maybe fear, being afraid, hurt, shame, other inner conflicts, all the stuff he laughs about his "target" or "victim"..." all feelings he wants to avoid or not to experience. (?)

      Maybe it is weakness for them?

    10. @Mach "Sociopaths ... have very strong destructive impulses....many male patients who actually have borderline personality disorder are diagnosed as sociopaths/psychopaths/antisocial.

      I totally agree with this, if the male is not suicidal or cutting -- that kind of thing -- and many female borderlines do not do that either.

      Just to mention, as I think Dr. Ginger wrote before, the brain scans that have been studied so far do show a difference between psychopaths and some borderlines but it's all preliminary I'd say with small sample sizes. It also does not mean one should base diagnoses on brain scans. Just a point -- that's all.

    11. Jung, that little slut..

    12. Dr Ginger- I am wondering if the differences in brain structure between psychopaths/antisocials and borderlines are the result of thought patterns and ways of perceiving that have become habitual as an adaptation to the environment or if you think that the brains, if viewed from birth are fundamentally different.

    13. Funny you mentioned "wants a teacher to fall in love with him," I've actually been trying to seduce a few of my professors. -Sigh- Alas... They like thew game, the word play, and the flirting, even flirt back sometimes but, I don't think they wanna risk what could happen if it went further than that. Let's see how it goes XD.

      Though I get where Anon 9:34 PM is coming from, I don't think that it is so crucial. I'm sure some sociopaths feel that way, but I wouldn't be so quick to throw all of them in the same box. While I understand what he mean by being the "master manipulator" and wanting to put themselves at the top of the universe, I don't think that all sociopaths think that way. What Anon calls "confirming that he is the master manipulator" (or roughly what he said) is what I would call earning Demigod Points. When I plan something out and it goes my way, I wouldn't say I get a huge feeling of joy. What I get is more along the lines of satisfaction, and a trophy to hang on my wall. Demigod points has the worth for me as a medal a kid gains at summer camp for scoring one goal in one of the twenty matches he played. Not much. It's just nice to hang around your room, display it, maybe even brag about it but, in the end it's just an aluminum disc painted gold, silver, or bronze.

      I think the sense of self a sociopath/psychopath has is "why do I need to have one self? I have many. It depends on my mood, it depends on what I'm trying to do". A boxer might be the greatest singer you ever heard but, once he enters the ring you can be pretty much sure that he won't sing (at least not until he's won). Instead he'll put his boxing face on. When he goes home after practice, he is a husband, a son, and a father, not the same beast he is in the ring. When he first holds his new born daughter he has tears in his eyes, and is holding her like the most precious thing in his life, he isn't holding her above his head, yelling his lungs out and shaking her like he would for the Champion's belt after winning his match. So why should the sociopath have one face, no one else in the world has one face.

    14. Faces come and go depending on the situation and your condition. It only seems like others have one face and sociopaths have multiple because neurotypicals are easier to figure out and to predict. Because you are already expecting a certain emotion, state of mind, and expression from a neurotypical based on a situation, you don't realize that his mask is morphing into a new one. You already expected it... so it's no surprise... and so you don't realize. But the sociopath is harder to predict, his mysterious, unpredictable, unexpected, and his emotions don't seem to match the situation. No matter how hard you try to guess what he will be feeling, or how his expressions will change, you can never really grasp it. He is inconsistent, so to most people he seems like he's always wearing a different face, a different personality, or is simply just a whole different person. In truth, it's because most people don't perceive or understand the transition. It makes no sense, it's not flowing smoothly (according to you), so it must be a totally new thing that came about.

      As for the light and shadow self, I don't think German and Doc are to far from the answer. My guess would be, not that the sociopath tends to lean on the shadow self, or that he (contrary to neurotypicals) needs to learn to accept his light self in order to become better, but that the self was never split for a sociopath in the first place. The sociopath has always seen it as a whole, not as a separated pair. Because of the loose (or maybe lack of) moral judgement, a sociopath doesn't see something as good or bad, not as shadow or light. The thing remains what it is, light and shadow painting a full image. He never worried about accepting his light or shadow self because he never thought of it as light and shadow self in the first place. He did good (light?) when he wanted to, and bad (shadow?) when he wanted to. Light isn't his qualities, and shadows aren't his faults and bad habits because a sociopath doesn't morally distinguish right from wrong. An action is an action, whether right or wrong, light or shadow, all that's left is what has been done.

      Not sure if I expressed myself clearly here. If I made anything sound jumbled up, lemme know and I'll try to rephrase and make it clearer.

    15. Tii, I imagine one day (not now) I could write a book about your texts. You are a wonderful writer and your writing drills into what can look wholly foreign to many people as a conscious experience and attitude to life.

      I have a simple question: do you or other self-identified socios yawn contagiously?

      It's a proven fact that when one person yawns, many others in their presence will. Even reading about yawning makes many people yawn. This is part of a built-in psychological and physiological, neurological mechanism of a type of empathy -- or resonance. It's automatic, not something one thinks or plans. So, do you yawn contagiously?

      I also have another question regarding "When he first holds his new born daughter he has tears in his eyes". Can you imagine what you would feel, and what you would do when you first held a new born son or daughter? Would you think about faking a mask, or would you be the 'real you'? Would it be automatic like yawning?

      That point you make about an absence of a shadow self is interesting. But I don't fully agree. I do think that some socios have negative emotions and thoughts they suppress into their Shado, because having those thoughts or emotions make them uncomfortable or unsettled, not because they are morally right or wrong. Your point on the absence of morality to distinguish the Shadow is excellent.

    16. Doc,
      About the book, find me when you're publishing. It would be nice to be able to also dip my fingers in the revenues.

      I do sometimes yawn when I think about, read about, or see yawning. But that's usually if I'm also tire or hungry.

      I wouldn't tear up when holding my newborn baby (at least I don't suppose I would). Most likely I would just smile, not because I feel overly happy, or feel overly emotional but, because of the realization of how innocent the baby is, how s/he is oblivious of all the suffering and hardship surrounding her. A baby is just discovering new thing, feeling sensations for the first time. The senses are still new, so every different thing it hears, sees, smells, touches, tastes is like a whole new flavor. It seems like an awesome position to be in, I wouldn't mind perceiving the world like they do for a few minutes. It's a peaceful thought, one that feels comfortable enough to be able to pull a smile from my face.

    17. Tii, that's a grand plan. Since you are completely anonymous except for a pseudonym you will have to find me, which is easy by sending me an email by clicking to the left here when you feel like it.

  9. You're an outright cum sucking cunt and so on and so on........ Such a nice letter written, I wonder how she responded? Socio, empath,aspie, whatever spectrum you fall on, an alien for all that matters.........why bash the shit out of her?

    hmmm, maybe he wasn't getting fed that day by her.

    I wonder what all his perfections are....i'm a little curious to know.

    He said, she said, becomes a dumb game. As a result, we all fall short. Period.

    Anyone who engages in sex is a cum sucking machine. Why does that make someone a slut? It doesn't. People desire intimacy, its a seed thats in us. Ain't nothing wrong with that as long as your not hurting others or yourself. If she is intimate with others, make it clear to all other partners involved, so your upfront & honest. You run the risk of std's, I do think one to one is safer to play with, but we all have different sexual preferences.

    1. Superchick:

      Outright cum sucking cunt. Haha!

      A few of his lines make me feel like I'm reading the lyrics of some '80's hair band song.


  10. One of the Anon ("N") here, says it very clearly : "And to be honest, I don't really know what I am, other than a product of my childhood environment and my unwillingness to let go of a lot of bitterness stemming from it."

    Socios to me are driven by a deep childhood immaturity, stuck in "unwillingness to let go of a lot of bitterness".
    It is litteraly driving their adult life.

    Speaking about mirrors, the "other" one, is at the same time USED to reflect an image to the Socio himself (Anon "N" says "I don't really know what I am"...and I notice the use of "what" and not "who"!), and an image/copy of their first relation in life...certainly their mother.
    And what does he wants to do to his mother? He wants to hurt her like she has hurt him so much.

    As "we" (empaths and co) are an image/copy, a tool to replay the eternal first relation...we will get the same treatment: A Socio will love us (like Mummy) and hate us at the same time.
    And then, like he couldn't do with Mummy, he will hurt us, and we will pay for her!

    When we say that Socios are seeking for power, they are in fact eternally thinking for power as a child to stop the mother behaviour that whas killing them.
    They couldn't stop the mother to kill/damage them for life, and a child feels/knows it.

    Sometimes the mother can be the father.
    And maybe, even, if we consider a different brain system, the child unwillingly has produced the same kind of system : he couldn't, because of his brain system, connect proprely to his mother, so the mother couldn't metaphoricaly "feed" him properly.

    It is little like the mother of autistic children, the mother is not guilty, how can she play her mother part if there is no way to connect with her child??

    I'm more and more thinking that some Socios explenations/justifications are more about a myth, a nice and frightening, powerfull way to explain their behaviour.

    But it is just a child with a terrible pain and loss, who couldn't grow up as an adult, rebuilt himself, and his sentenced as a ghost to wander alone frightening others.

    (Sorry for my english, not my mother tongue).

    1. Lala:

      You're not actually dead on with your perceptions, but you're very close. At least for me anyway.

      I'm a woman, by the way. I only point that out because you used the male pronoun so much.


    2. Thanks N, I know you are a women, but I was speaking in general...that's why I didn't mind much about he or she :)

      This is exactly perceptions, so I'm open to any comment.

      For other reasons, I had to deal with a kind of resigned mother...although very loving (very important to notice), I understood as a child that she would bring me to a metaphorical death...and have always suffered that at a very young age, I was not able to protect myself more.

    3. Sounds a little too Freudian for my taste but, I guess it is possible for some socios to have become what they are due to childhood trauma.

      I still stick to my theory that sociopathy is the result of logic, and not logic the result of sociopathy. I've mentioned on another thread, I grew up in a higher middle class family as a child, my relatives use to tease and criticize my mom by calling me a Little Prince (not in the St Exupéry sense) when I was a kid because they thought she spoiled me. It's not as though I was a spoiled, my son can't have to lift a finger, he can't ever feel pain or difficulty though. I was well disciplined (felt the belt, sandals, and twigs in more than one occasion from many family members), pretty obidient, and my grandparents have mentioned that out of their 40 something grandkids I was their favorite because I was well behaved (or more like knew how the game was played). My mother gave me pretty much nothing but love because she felt guilty that she and my dad separated when I was a baby. I didnt grow up without a father though, I saw my father regularly and get along pretty well with him, plus when I was very young my mother married a man whom I call Papa (dad) and who has been more of a father to me than half the fathers I know are to their kids. I can say with confidence that I have no childhood trauma, even getting kidnapped along with my mother at 6 years old with people pointing guns at us wasn't very traumatic.

      From a very young age my way of thinking set me up on a sociopathic path though. As a kid I could rationalize and come up with many reasons why certain emotions (usually pain, sadness, guilt shame) were unnecessary in certain/all situation. Of course I wasn't as articulate and couldn't manipulate my words to reflect my thoughts as easily as I can now but the mental reasoning was already there. I remember my parents on two different occasions telling me in tears to brace myself because an uncle had died. I had to force myself to cry for two reasons. 1. I felt like that was what I should do since everyone else was. 2. I wanted to use grief as an excuse for not going to school (didn't work though). I couldn't understand why they were crying, if at 8 I knew that everyone dies and that's nothing to cry over, shouldn't they know it too. Plus, what about all that "when you die you go to Paradise if you're nice" talk that they liked so much. My lack of empathy and my disinterest sprouted from my way of thinking. Why put so much interest in things? What do you gain from feeling that way? What do you gain from acting that way? Why should I behave and act like others, or according to what people want or expect? Such ways of thinking turned me into the sociopath I am now. I don't think that sociopathy gave me those ways of thinking.

    4. Plus there's also the theory that sociopathy might be hereditary. Though I'm not too sure about that, I'll still put it before childhood trauma. From what I've noticed lately, and what has been told to me about the past, I'm starting to develop the idea that my biological father might also be a sociopath. He's always been smooth with words, impulsive, quick to act under pressure, great at making people love him, and very logical/ reasonable. Only thing that is missing is the fact that he is a bit of a humanitarian, and that he isn't very violent (though I think that I've heard that was different when he was younger). He on the other hand had a difficult childhood (if you can call it a childhood at all). His separated from his mother when he was young and took the oldest kids with him (my dad is the oldest). Don't think he was the best father around, and eventually the kids returned to their mom. While still a kid he had to be the man of the house, take care of his siblings, teach them, and raise them like a father would. Maybe that could have sparked what I seem to think is sociopathy in him. My mother on the other hand suffers from anxiety, and depression. She used to have panic attacks way too often when we were back in my country (one of the reasons we moved to the U.S). She is very emotional, like her emotions sometimes seem to be all she is. She is also emotionally dependent, she needs someone to lean on (I don't think she would have made it healthily this far without my stepfather), she's not a decision maker and will often just do what people suggest instead of what she wants. On the other hand, if the situation is dire, and she begins to feel like people are depending on her, she will turn into the most confident, courageous, straight up cold, authoritative leader they can imagine. I don't know much about it but her personality seems to lean on borderline from what I've read and looked up so far. Can't say for sure though, I don''t know much about BPD, but someone did mention a correlation between borderline mothers and sociopath children.

    5. Til, I think your a well rounded individual and have adapted well. You'd be a good example and leader to some of the men who are sociopathic, or consider themselves almost one, (but maybe not even score so high on the test or maybe don't even see a point seeing a health professional because there is simply nothing to fix). It's just another diagnose tagged on.
      You know what you are inside and use it to your advantage -and for the good of yourself and others around you. And you try to lead a good -full filled- content life without meaning to hurt others, that's a bonus, and it's living productively with ease. If my partner and I met you in real life, I'm quite confident we'd both say, " that young man is going places and has a good head on his shoulders. "

    6. Well, Tii, i like you as well. As you know, you remind me of my friend quite a bit. More and more actually. I did not like for the self respect examples you gave a while back, that was weird.

      Also, Tii, you are still on a trophy chase, trying to seduce people. I am assuming you know you hurt people eventually doing that, don't you?

    7. Thanks ^_^.
      Funny you should say Superchick, my folks think that that good head on my shoulders is too heavy and I've tripped. They swear it's planted on the ground and I'm not going anywhere.

      Don't worry my trophy chase has ended, or at least is directed towards a new game now. The trophies I play for now are built around me developing close, pretty intimate friendships with both guys and girls. Of course I tend to get closer to girls because they open up , and share their thoughts and feeling more easily than man, who tend to refrain from opening, and spilling their thoughts onto people. The girls I do seduce, I've already become close friends with, and am pretty open with them (sorta like a gay bestfriend that isn't gay, and that you've given the key to inside and outside the friendzone). The seduction isn't the type to make them fall in love with me to the point where they can only think of me through out their day. It's a momentary one, it's flirting with them when we're alone and comfortable, back and forth play and sweet talk that leads to more intimate things after we've both agreed and understood that it's only an "in the moment" type thing, and isn't supposed to change the relationship. When it's over we're back to being just super close friends.

  11. In few words, Socios are love addicts...they need to be fed, like vampires. Their entire life is focused on this. Without this perfusion they die. They need to take absolutely, but not to give.
    (A drug addict who is going to have his shoot, will not ask his neighbour, if perhaps he wants to come, have a tea and share the drug.)

    That's also why empaths can't understand a thing about Socios behaviour : they are naturaly gifted with love. They don't need any shoot, the are already most of the time on self overdose :)
    Their system is the opposite of the Socios system. The need for love (in general, I don't speak about love relationship with a grilfriend or boyfriend) is not driving their life at all.

  12. I'm not confused. I clearly get socio motivations & their intent. I am confused by those that allows a socio to suck the life out of them. Clearly, most have not educated their self of exactly what a socio is & identifiers. It's like the site is to glamorize sociopathy. like it's all fuzzy & warm that someone has evil intend to use & discard someone. I get it .. you are so insecure that you need power. Put that energy elsewhere into more productive things.. there are numerous other way to get power. why does one have to destruct & destroy to have that?

    clearly, there are many many things missing in a sociopath soul. comparing apples to oranges when someone speaks of how empaths desire love and socio desire Power. C'mon. Get real. those 2 have no comparisons at all. At least have positive results if you attain Power instead of leaving destruction behind.
    It's evident its not the power socio want but the destruction. Apparently socio feel so badly about themselves that destroying something is all that can make them feel better.
    What a shame.

    1. totally agree

      the point is, I wasn't aware a that time, that I deal with my personal emotionally not attached "Nigeria scam" fraud ;-). No, I didn't give him money. I was aware that the illusion was an illusion and than I just stopped.

      Or in your words "my" orange behaved as an apple. I wasn't even aware, that there are existing oranges. See, how uneducated I was.

    2. Anon, your comment is interesting. I have a question and a remark.

      You write "(a) I clearly get socio motivations & their intent... (b) why does one have to destruct & destroy to have that?"

      I also ask the same question (b) -- which is about motivation, so I don't see how you get to (a) -- that you get socio motivation. (a) and (b) appear inconsistent.

      I also don't think, and perhaps you don't either, that socios feel bad about themselves or feel pain primarily, or are afraid to feel pain necessarily.

      I saw a lot of undiluted anger and bitterness at the entire world. My socio/narcborderline (or something like that) even said that he liked being angry as it gave him focus in life.

    3. I've been blessed with a very intuitive nature. I've always been an observer. I do not wear the rose colored glasses.. you know the one's that socio like to fool. The weaker or one's that are trusting & take people for their word.

      I read M.E. book through & through. I heard loud her thought process & it's clear her intentions in relationships. It's not inconsistent, in fact its very consistent of a socio intent. This is what I know.

      Yeah that apple is rotten to the core. Hopefully, a socio can feel pain..It's what make one human.

    4. Anon, it looks like you are saying that socios are rotten apples, or is it just ME you refer to?

      I guess I did not make my remark clear enough.

      You say you get the MOTIVATION of socios but then ask "why does one have to destruct & destroy ". Now that question is about MOTIVATION, is it not?

      Are you saying that you know why they have to destruct and destroy. If so, I would really like to know what you think the motivation they have to destruct and destroy from your intuitive, observant perspective.

      btw I do agree with you that being trusting and taking people for their word is a disaster for someone who crawls into bed with a socio.

    5. they kinda are. Just from observations of one's that I believe are socio's. They CAN do good deeds but it's the underlying motivation of why they do it to trick and ultimately destruct others. As this post shows.. they get off on it. I do not know why other than they definitely are missing some links. I'm not going to excuse because of missing inside of them. I say never EVER trust a socio. If they do good.. there is a reason why & usually it's not good. Yet I come here and read posts .. no matter how you project it to be upbeat, beautify it with some flattering words..etc.. Its not good & yes rotten. the rot will poison and I don't know how else to say it.

    6. They should rename this site socio.narcoborderlineworld.com

    7. My last post seems to have disappeared... so I'll try to reconstruct it.

      Poll questions for socio.narcoborderlineworld.com

      1. Is it acceptable within current cultural standards to write a blog that devotes itself in part to online anthropology. What this means in particular is taking excerpts from what anonymous people post about their personal experiences in life as atypical neurological beings.

      I am not asking whether this has any positive value. I am asking if it violates what people might regard as their privacy. Note there is no particular focus on any one individual as this is not what anthropology is about.

      2. Does it make any difference if the blog is public or online accessible for registered users?

      3. Would permission in advance be required? This has the disadvantage of potentially biasing what people might feel free to write.

      4. Does it matter if the forum is 'self-help' for a community of people e.g. those who self-identify as BPD?

      My view is that is ok since it is not really different than writing the same material in an email to acquantainces who may then send it out themselves to others, minding the facts that: no ads appear on the blog and no money is made. Also the blog is anonymous so there is no status gain or loss, unlike the case of emails.

      I ask here because I believe that people would not be perturbed by the question and I hope to get a range of views.

      3. Does i

    8. ps I expect that many here will disagree with me but I am starting to see the existence of DSM Personality Disorders as truly grotesque (I mean this conceptually not morally).

      On the one hand you have a classification system based on checking off items on a list and if the number is greater than X then the person has a PD. The result is many pd's classified as NOS, a high level of co-morbidity, and the fact that different people will often give different diagnoses.

      That is not though what makes it truly grotesque -- its the other side of the coin that must be included. As I see it, people diagnosed with the same personality disorder like BPD have not only vastly different symptoms but vastly different experiences and attitudes to life so this leads to widespread cultural misunderstanding and type casting.

      One could even say that on some imaginary scale there is more variability among pwBPD than the average difference between a pwBPD and a socio. This is just one example.

      So you have grouped people together based on the wrong criteria, or they cannot really be grouped at all.

    9. "As I see it, people diagnosed with the same personality disorder like BPD have not only vastly different symptoms but vastly different experiences and attitudes...or they cannot really be grouped at all." Amen to all that! I'm not all emo like these other borderlines....ok ima go get my emo on now and listen to Perfect Circle.

    10. I see the DSM as a very crude attempt at the helping professions to get on the same page - better than the chaos that was, but still needing work. The fact is the APA is still trying to figure out how to discuss personality variants (I don't necessarily see them as disorders - poor adaptations to the present environment...maybe...). Contrast that with a physical science like chemistry where changes to the periodic table at this stage of the conversation are small and slow in coming - mostly additions. It's a reflection of the immaturity of the field.

      I hope that the work being done with genetics and brain imaging (e.g. Dr. Fallon) will help to guide the helping community towards a better way to look at how people behave and interact. The high rate of PD-NOS, as you point out shows how weak the taxonomy is.

      (By the by, I am best described as a "Cluster B" - arguably BPD - and a guy).


      P.S. I need to work out the whole profile thing -

    11. HLHaller, I think we are mostly on the same page.

      The biggest failure in my mind of the DSM regarding PDs is that on the one hand, it clearly articulates the symptoms of 255 types of BPD. On the other hand, it does not address the fundamental issue of variance in the BPD population.

      It does not adequately describe the variability inherent in its own definition of BPD.

      There are so many different phenotypes of BPD, where life experiences, states of mind and being, of such people is inarguably varied. It simply fails to address the variety of human experience in any reasonable way, so all such varied personalities get lumped into a label BPD which is too narrow and simplified, because it hasn't been defined properly in terms of variance.

      ps i forget the profile thing and scroll down to name/url.

    12. The combinatorics to get 255 BPD types also applies to all the other PDs. As far as I know they all work by the same rule: if a person has more that U symptoms out of V possibilities, then the number of different types is

      NumberofTypes = V!/[(U!)(V-U)!] + V!/[(U+1)!(V-U-1)!] + ... V

      as far as I know all the pds work by this formula. If the traits in V are distinct varied, or orthogonal to each other (which they should be otherwise they ought to be combined into a single trait), you really get distinct populations in the same diagnosis.

      Obviously if some traits in the list V for a PD X are the same as the traits in the list V' for PD X', there will be a lot of mixing up, co-morbidities, etc.

      It's the combinatorics that kills it in my view.

    13. Add to that the other PD's and the number of combinations creating a structure that is less informative rather than more. However, given the immaturity of the field, it's understandable that they would go through this process.

      As an engineer, I sometimes use Affinity Analysis to group work/problems into clusters (this is usually done in groups a way to drive consensus). The whole clustering scheme looks a lot to me like the outcomes of those group activities.

      Also, given that much of the work on PD's is done on institutionalized individuals and the lens is only now really being applied to the greater population, it's somewhat expected that many of the questions would come up, least of all, "if these really [scary/horrible/whatever] folks have this trait, and I have this trait, does that make me [scary/horrible/whatever]? (they also seem to miss the whole "blood lust" question that, at least in my mind, really differentiates those individuals).

      It's nice that I'm not the only one looking at combinatorics and thinking that "this is clunky."

    14. HLHaller, oh the presently prevalent system is more than clunky, there is a combinatorial explosion when one considers all the different personality types and the way they can combine in co-morbidities. I am not talking about frequency observed in the population just the number of possibilities that the diagnostic system has built into it and in fact demands.

      It's this combinatorial death that is the reason the community must move, and is starting to do so to a different way of diagnosing and hence treating personality disorders.

      Just a rough dirty calculation to get the order of magnitude of the number of different combinations of traits together with the number of different comorbidities that can happen according to the currently prevailing standard:

      Ok for borderline the diagnositc criteria is (5 out of 9=255) combinations of symptoms, for schizotypial it is (5 out of 10)>255

      For the sake of simplicity (and you will see that due to the combinatorial explosion it doesn't really matter so much. That is once a number is so big it can be taken as infinity from any practical point of view)

      I'll assume that all 10 have about 200 distinct combinations which assuming each person has only one diagnosis gives 2000 different personality phenotypes for a person with a single diagnosis.

      Now we get to possible co-morbidities. Let's say a person has 2 diagnosis, and symptoms from one do not overlap (this is just an order of magnitude calculation), so for a person with 2 symptoms this gives (10!/(2!times8!)times(200)^2 = approx 2 million combinations of symptoms.

      In principle it is possible for a person to be diagnosed with all 10 personality disorders. People report in the literature seeing more than 5 in one person, but again I am not talking about frequency but possibilities that this classification scheme not only implies but demands based on how it is set up.

      For a person diagnosed with 10 personality disorders the number of possible combinations is a whopping (200)^(10) or 200 to the 10th power.
      That number is 4^(10)times10^20 which is about 10^23, which is about Avogadro's number.

      so the lower limit on the number of different combinations of symptoms that can lead to diagnosis of one or more personality disorders is bigger than Avogadro's number -- unless I have made a mistake. the approximations made do not change that number by more than let's say 10^(20) to 10^(26), but you see it can't possibly matter as it is all useless.

      that's called combinatorial explosion and why this system for diagnosing personality disorders is a disaster from my pov.

    15. ps just to give an idea of how ridiculous this all is:

      1. the age of the universe is about 10^10 years. Let's extrapolate to the future for another period of time equal to the age of the universe.

      2. the estimate is that the number of people on earth will soon saturate to about 10 billion or 10^(10).

      3. let's say that a whopping 10% have a personality disorder -- that is 1 billion people on earth with a personality disorder (this is a gross overexaggeration but with numbers this big it does not matter in the end).

      4. let's say it takes 10 years to reproduce the population with new people.

      5. then in the age of the universe, we will go through 10^9 reproduction cycles each producing 10^9 people with personality disorders.

      6. so extrapolating to the future to the time scale of the age of the universe, this gives 10^(18) people who will ever have a personality disorder.

      7. this number is smaller than the number of different combinations that a person can have to be diagnosed with at least one personality disorder, around 10^(23).

      The number of species that have ever existed on earth is less than 10 billion =10^(10) so even if my estimate of 10^(23) combinations is totally off, it is still so much greater than that. If that isn't ridiculous I don't know what is.

    16. In my experience, people in the psych profession aren't usually as adept at math as people in other "scientific" fields.

      One of my degrees is in statistics and during that course of study I became convinced that most universities have stat departments as internal consultants to help the rest of the folks get the math right for the stuff they are publishing.

      Yeah, any time you need factorials and start talking in terms of log scales, most people's eyes glass over. People can handle number up to about 1000 (10^3) - past that, it starts to become tough to wrap most minds around the numbers.

      I seem to recall an anecdote where some scientists were discussing the energy needed to achieve fusion - the number 10^25 sticks in my mind (don't want to attempt units - they really aren't important here anyway). One of the scientists tried to put it in perspective by saying, "right now the best we can do is about 10^11." To which one of the non-scientists gasped, "We're half way there!" ...yeah...

      One of the other problems I see with the way the DSM works is the binary nature. You have it or you don't. I don't think it's that black and white - I prefer spectrums.

      Finally, I have to wonder, if 10% of a population is ANYTHING, does that really make them "strange/wrong/"different"?" Is it possible that there is some bias going on here...


    17. HLHaller, I agree with you -- people's eyes glass over.

      On the other hand this categorical system has been around for ages so I'd be surprised if there were not something in the literature (ignored no doubt) about the combinatorial catastrophe of any categorical system that introduces factorials for 10 different PDs with co-morbidities present. It seems to me that psychiatry does not even take its own system seriously.

      The truth is that a reasonably mathematically competent high school senior could work this out.

      A categorical (yes or no) system can't work because of this mathematical catastrophe. I agree anything is better, anything at all. Why not start with spectrums.

    18. HLHaller, I guess we both love numbers to some degree. About the 10%, it doesn't actually matter in the final result whether it's 1%, 10%, or 100% of people have diagnosable PD's. All that means is that you end up with 10^(17), 10^(18) or 10^(19) people on earth over a future spanning the present age of the universe who will ever have a PD. This number is smaller than the different symptom combinations that a person with at least one PD can have. What does that mean?

  13. Third attempt to post this:
    The first person to call e a psychopath was my best friend when we were teenagers. Now, we are in our 70's. In a fit of nostalgia, I called her to let her know I had gotten my records from the nuthouse. She would have been very interested at one time but now she "didn't want to discuss the past." Meh.

  14. Great song by charles manson, its a cover of ray conniff and the singers.:

  15. Getting close to a snake, and then blaming the snake for venom

  16. There was a film about Eskamo life called "The Savage Innocents."
    It told about how Sociopathy is in the eye of the beholder, and how
    definations depend on culture.
    A priest pays a visit to an Eskamo couples iglu. He is invited by the husband to "laugh" (have sex) with his wife. "No!, he says in an appaled
    way. The husband takes it as an insult and bashes the priests head
    against the wall, killing him. The rest of the film is about the authourity's
    persuit of the couple, who are bewildered by the outrage.
    It's a good study about how definantions of Sociopathy differ from culture
    to culture.

    1. From Culture to culture, but maybe more from education/social chances...i'm also wandering about some genetic aspects more important for certain populations. And the fact also that some population were much mixed or not...

  17. There was a list of the different types of psychopaths listed on here once. One of them was the academic psychopath. I love that concept..the academic psychopath. I love psychopaths, and I love the world of academia. It's like putting my two favorite flavors of ice cream on the same cone.

  18. I like studying historical psychopaths. I just read an interesting article on Nero in Time yesterday. I like that they also talked about some of the good things that he did too, and the author questioned if he was as bad as he often portrayed. One of my favorites if Vlad Tepes. I feel like a get Vlad. He had an interesting life. Don’t get all hung up on that whole impalement thing :P

  19. Welp not sure how much longer I'll be hangin around this place but I sure am grateful for me's work. I'm not sure what she is like as a person but I think her work is great. It helps others better understand sociopathy and some of the complexeties. Take care :):)

    1. Some great stories are short stories. I'll miss you Dr. G.

  20. I want to be memorized by someone.

  21. When you are submitting a reply, does anyone else on here try to intentionally misspell the captcha's just to see how far off they can get before the machine won't accept it?

    1. I misspell it all the time. Lol but sometimes I graduate to numbers. I like them better.

  22. Dear Dr. Ginger.
    Before you go could you answer a few questions about borderline's
    for me? I reccomended the book about Hitler called "The Psychopathic
    God." Are Borderlines:

    A) Purposefully self sabatoguing. Do they LIKE to set themselves up for
    B) They are extremely contradictory. It's ALL or NOTHING.

    C) They can display "many faces," in over the course of a few minutes.
    Almost as though demon posessed. Look at the hundreds of "faces"
    "good" mother Casey Anthony expressed in the 1,000's of
    photographs taken of her.

    D) They play sex games involving poop. I don't know WHY, but that has
    been a noted trait.

    I don't know whether this is true in your case, and you've said you worked
    in a mental hospital setting. The hospital T.A.'s are sadistic and often
    worse then the patients, but you said you had a "responsible" interactive
    position as an "intake nurse." Is it so? You've held it together pretty good
    for a Borderline. Any explainations?

    1. sorry to bust in and hope that Dr. Ginger will properly respond, but I am greatly relieved by your point D to have the mystery of "two girls, one cup" solved.

    2. Where did you even get D from in the first place? I've never heard or read about any inherent correlation between BPD and a penchant for scat play.


    3. Anonymous@3:26 AM

      Regarding your question -- and I do hope Dr. G may have a few more words to offer... -- "Before you go could you answer a few questions about borderline's for me?"

      All your questions are ill posed. They are not even wrong. To be diagnosed with BPD one needs at least 5 distinct symptoms out of 9 possible ones to be checked off.

      By combinatorics this means there are 255 different types of BPD [even disregarding the actual severity of each symptom over a threshold]. Each person will have some symptoms and NOT have others, as demanded by the classification system itself.

      Just because a person has a high degree of one symptom does not demand they have any other particular symptom at all. That is a requirement of the classification system itself.

      So any question like Are Borderlines:"A) Purposefully self sabatoguing. Do they LIKE to set themselves up for failure?" misses the point entirely.

      Assuming for the sake of argument that A) fits into one of the 9 possible symptoms, it is not true that "borderlines are A". Some are and some aren't.

    4. Hallelujah, perfect reply doctor. :)

    5. Hey Superchick!, Dr. Ginger and everyone else here. Regarding my poll questions above, my thread asking the same questions was locked with a hue and a cry from another website for people with personality disorders and got no response here, which is interesting and funny...

      Legally the issue is clear, "In United States copyright law, fair use is a doctrine that permits limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary, search engines, criticism, parody, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship." there are similar protections in Canada, UK, Australia etc. Otherwise no one would ever be able to quote anyone without their permission...

      Legally that means that quotes can be excerpted, as long as a reference is given, from any material that appears on the public web. ME must know all of this but I am only learning.

      Ethically the issue is a mess. Ethics here has been best articulated in the research community. It is question privacy and how does it extend into texts (like literature) from a person, rather than privacy of the person themselves. Looking at web postings as texts, people end up deciding for themselves what to do. It depends on the connection between the text and the actual person.

      I"ve decided for now just to use quotes from people who post as 'anonymous' since they don't even have a pseudonym. For me its like what a ph.d. in literature would do (I guess), analyzing texts from 19th century female authors for instance, except here all the authors are anonymous, and not necessarily female.

      The ethical position however is that one has to announce what one is doing, so that is done.

    6. I'm glad to see a you mentioning about more than 200 combinatorics types of bpd. That was mentioned to me, I had no idea it being as high as 255. . You're well informed.
      Picking up my daughter at daycare, catch a later. :)

    7. “You've held it together pretty good for a Borderline”. Anon, you make me laugh : )

      First off I think it’s important to recognize there are different perspectives on bpd. You have the clinical perspective, which a large majority have latched on to. I suspect part of this is cultural because in western culture we tend to view a person on an individual level rather than as being part of a whole, or a larger group like what is seen in eastern cultures. Clinical psychologists are trained to view pathology as residing on an individual level rather than the pathology residing in society. Social psychologists don’t get as hung up on clinical diagnoses, and even poke fun at the “clinical types”. Critical psychologists will look at social issues, and see how they contribute to symptoms of mental illness. Some will even go as far as to argue that mental illness is a social construction. Our society has undergone, and continues to undergo some massive changes at a celeritous pace. Borderlines used to be seen as passionate and a little fickle, now it’s a SEVERE MENTAL DISORDER. The Hawaiian goddess, Pele, personifies a borderline, and she was turned in to a deity. Now they are locked in prisons, psychiatric hospitals, medicated in to oblivion, and told they should be shipped off to a deserted island, and kept away from society. Like sociopaths, borderlines have the warrior gene. Historically, many made great warriors. We live in a society where every little thing is a violation of law. People can go to jail or prison over nothing. There isn’t even room to be human anymore. If you have a PD, you have to be versatile and adaptable. You have to find outlets because this stuff will manifest itself no matter what in some form or another.

    8. Borderlines are force of destruction. I hate that psychologists see destructive behaviors as being a bad thing. Not all destructive behaviors are bad, and can be beneficial for society. How else can we evolve and change without a little destruction? I try to teach borderlines how to find prosocial outlets for their destructive behaviors. For example, if you are challenging a paradigm that others are operating from you have to be a little destruction. Borderlines can be very aggressive, and things that normally deter others won’t deter a borderline. They don’t always process fear right, and will take a lot of risks. All of these characteristics can be honed, developed, and used for a lot of good. I did work in an inpatient psychiatric facility, but I have never been a nurse. I agree though that staff sometimes can be a bit unsympathetic, and even a little mean.

      Do they LIKE to set themselves up for failure?

      I wouldn’t say “like”, they can just be very destructive. You mentioned borderlines perceiving things in all or nothing, black or white, and this is true for things they are emotional about. For example, I’ve come across a number of feminists that might be considered radical who would most likely meet criteria for bpd. This is an issue they are emotional about, so they tend to think in extremes. Most feminists are pretty smart, and I’ve seen them get triggered, and eviscerate people. Although I have my clinical observations, I do nothing to get in the way because, as you can see, it helps women achieve equality, and these behaviors pre-date Freud, and have been going on since the beginning of time. It’s how social and political dynamics change. We’re a social species so nature had to create something that was able to do it otherwise things would remain stagnant, and we would die out.

      I thought it was interesting when Dev compared sociopaths to the sun because I always compare borderlines to fire. Fire can be very useful, and do a lot of good. You can warm yourself by the fire, you can cook food with it, but you get too close you get burned. A lot of borderlines feel like they suffer, and hit the shit genetic lottery, but they are often very popular within any group they are in, and reap the benefits of a higher social status within a group. It’s sort of the compromise.

      Borderlines tend to be divided in to one of two groups, either high functioning or low functioning. The low functioning ones are the ones who self-harm. An interesting theory was posited by a sociologist that the reason for this behavior evolving was to instill fear in the enemy, and show them that violence doesn’t scare them.

  23. Poop trait Anon. Where'd you read that? Curious.This blog just gets more peculiar, funny and interesting..... :P

    1. Kinda wondering that myself. As someone that qualifies as BPD, I can say I've not been known for being scatological, at least in that way...I joke about it (usually describing some of our engineers trying to solve a problem...it looks kind of like a monkey house at times...you get the idea...).

    2. I get the idea. ;-) lol

  24. Psychos cannot love, the core-theme of psychopathy is "loveless". Like yes. But like is not love. They may like their children & dogs. Pink dreams about romance most likely don´t appear in "the void"?

  25. “You have been my friend. That in itself is a tremendous thing. I wove my webs for you because I liked you. After all, what's a life, anyway? We're born, we live a little while, we die. A spider's life can't help being something of a mess, with all this trapping and eating flies. By helping you, perhaps I was trying to lift up my life a trifle. Heaven knows anyone's life can stand a little of that.”

    ― E.B. White, Charlotte's Web

    1. The world needs spiders like Charlotte. Without spiders the world would be overrun by vermin.

  26. A psychologist, one who lacks knowledge about the Creation, benefits from the suffering of others is the last person who ought to advise a sociopath.

    Reminds me of a wonderful saying of Ali ibn Abi Taleb, peace be upon the Commander of the Faithful:

    "Among all the people the most detested before Allah are two persons. One is he who is devoted to his self. So he is deviated from the true path and loves speaking about (foul) innovations and inviting towards wrong path. He is therefore a nuisance for those who are enamoured of him, is himself misled from the guidance of those preceding him, misleads those who follow him in his life or after his death, carries the weight of others’ sins and is entangled in his own misdeeds.

    The other man is he who has picked up ignorance. He moves among the ignorant, is senseless in the thick of mischief and is blind to the advantages of peace. Those resembling like men have named him scholar but he is not so. He goes out early morning to collect things whose deficiency is better than plenty, till when he has quenched his thirst from polluted water and acquired meaningless things, he sits among the people as a judge responsible for solving whatever is confusing to the others.

    If an ambiguous problem is presented before him he manages shabby argument about it of his own accord and passes judgement on its basis. In this way he is entangled in the confusion of doubts as in the spider’s web, not knowing whether he was right or wrong. If he is right he fears lest he erred, while if he is wrong he hopes he is right. He is ignorant, wandering astray in ignorance and riding on carriages aimlessly moving in darkness. He did not try to find reality of knowledge. He scatters the traditions as the wind scatters the dry leaves.

    By Allah, he is not capable of solving the problems that come to him nor is fit for the position assigned to him. Whatever he does not know he does not regard it worth knowing. He does not realise that what is beyond his reach is within the reach of others. If anything is not clear to him he keeps quiet over it because he knows his own ignorance. Lost lives are crying against his unjust verdicts, and properties (that have been wrongly disposed of) are grumbling against him.

    I complain to Allah about persons who live ignorant and die misguided. For them nothing is more worthless than the Qur’an if it is recited as it should be recited, nor anything more valuable than the Qur’an if its verses are removed from their places, nor anything more vicious than virtue nor more virtuous than vice."

    As for the spider and web inferences here...indeed, the Quran discusses the tiny creature at length and sociopaths do weave complex webs only they tend not to know how to extricate themselves from them and move on and on and on. Some of them however at some point in their life....if they are lucky...get caught by a ferocious spider slayer who offers them a chance to discover the nature of the creation that they mistakenly believe they have formulated through the illusion of achievements verus the actuality of consequences.

  27. I'm late to the party here but it seems to me that the person who wrote this note is still in the throes of his/her entanglement with the sociopath. However the socio might like to romanticize his or her impact on the person they have seduced, when it is all over and done, the non-socio looks back and thinks, what a boring waste of time.


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  29. To Puppy Basket,

    You confirm a thought/feeling that i have, that these labels we use are not entirely accurate, because it's more like a really big Consciousness spectrum. On the extremes, we have pure ego/selfishness to the point it gets off on others pain, and the other extreme we have pure Love, which we could say that someone like Jesus symbolizes.

    Most are somewhere in the middle, some, like yourself, at some point move closer to the ego/selfishness end of the spectrum than you are to the pure Love. But, for whatever reason, you decided to change and to start making different choices. Over time, this has shifted you more to the Love side of the spectrum.

    I think your Expanded Self, deliberately set up your life to know and experience these extremes for this round, so that you could eventually become an effective and powerful healer. The most powerful healers are those who have been in the dregs themselves, and know what it takes to move out of same.

    Ultimately, you were always an "older", more mature soul, but you took a gamble with this--it could have kept going the other way to the ego/selfishness.

    And here's the big secret, that most more hard core psycho/sociopaths will have a hard time understanding. Love is selfish too, but in a different way than ego selfishness. Love recognizes that there is a connection, a fundamental unity and interconnectedness between all beings, between the little self and all others, and that what you do to one other part of the Whole, you ultimately do to yourself in a very real way, which is why so many sociop/psychopathic people have to go out of their way to get "kicks", whereas very spiritually intune, and mature people are naturally joyous and at peace. In other words, one can be selfish solely for the little self, or one can be selfish for the big, connected Self that we are all part of.

    I know the extremes some myself, and i can unequivocally state, that while going towards the pure Love spectrum is at times more painful, it's also much more deeply satisfying and rewarding. It's ultimately more challenging. Anyone can be a selfish, uncaring, full of defenses prick in this world. That's like water flowing downhill to some extent.

    It's a whole other thing to open self up, to let oneself feel, to care about others and the state of the world, to love others who may try to hurt you, etc, etc. This is much more challenging in this world, and personally, i like a challenge and i'm addicted to the feel good, joyous feelings that choosing pure Love eventually fosters within even under difficult outer circumstances.

    You are not a sociopathic type anymore, not really, you made your choice and as long as you stay over the middle line of the spectrum, you will continue to grow towards the pure Love spectrum, which in meditation i sometimes spontaneously perceive as pure White Light.

    And thank you for coming here (to Earth) and taking on this difficult task, so as to be a healer for others. Much love, appreciation and respect to you


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