Friday, June 28, 2013

Interview with a seductee (part 1)

I interviewed a seduction target to get the backstory. (I discussed this admittedly clumsy and mistake riddled seduction first here, then here, and finally here):
You came into the office for your little stint. You kept walking by my door, kept walking by my window. Then you would come sit down in my chair and you definitely sat in it with a very territorial type comfort and I would talk nonstop in a verbal diahrrea that only showed my sense of discomfort with the entire situation and more appropriately you. I really remember my interactions with other people about you. People seemed to notice that you had come around in talking to me. I remember one or more person asking about you, who you are, what your deal was, where you were coming from, whether you liked me, aka what was your sexuality. Because even though it was decidedly confirmed that you were trendy and hip, it was unconfirmed whether you were gay or not, so it became my duty to find out, not just for their sake but equally for mine. Then we went to lunch I think, I remember it being somewhat awkward. I drove. We went to the mexican restaurant. You didn't eat your food. You ordered it. You didn't eat it. I thought that was strange, that you had ordered it, not eaten it, and not taken it with you. But we had an interesting conversation about nothing and then we talked about the only thing that mattered to me, which was trying to find out which gender you were into. It started with something like whether you had been to a particular gay club, which you had been. I had determined that that had meant that you were either gay or bisexual, which meant that the possibility that you and I were pretty much in love was certain. And then you would go on cigarette breaks with me and we would talk about life's mysteries.

I like the way the way that you stand, by the way. When we were standing outside, I really like the way you stand. I don't know if it was a proximate distance thing or a confidence, standing at attention, straight back thing, but there was something.

Then we made plans to have dinner, which essentially was to have dinner at my place without many more specifics, but we set a date within that week. You were only working there for a week, and I was leaving on a trip, so it couldn't have been much longer than a couple days after the lunch that we arranged to have a dinner together. When discussing this with my cohorts, they had decided that we were going on a date, and since you were coming to my house it was more a date plus something else, which put me in the uncomfortable position of deciding whether or not I wanted this something else from you, despite the fact that we had not actually established what you sexuality was. Luckily for me, my house is always tidy, but I don't have any groceries, so when you and I had arranged to have the dinner, I was going to have to go buy it that day, this all felt like a lot of hoopla and I didn't know if I wanted to pursue this. This led to me backing out and you sitting there in my office staring at me. I tried to explain myself, which was met with by your cold stare of unacceptance, to my shock. I was waiting for you to go "of course, can't wait to try it sometime later or soon," or some other agreement for letting me off the hook easily, but you seemed that much more annoyed that I was not only trying to get out of it, but trying to explain why I was trying to get out of it. You said that this was a negative attribute of my personality. Then, feeling much worse about the whole arrangement than before, I reneged on my attempt to get out of dinner and instead went back to having dinner with you and decided that I would just have to leave work early to get dinner supplies. After dinner, you're just laying on my floor, there were a lot of silent pauses. The entire time I felt like you were so brilliantly twisted and of wild thoughts that I was both enamored by you but felt that I had to prove myself to you and not bore you with small talk. You said that normal conversation with normal people was about things like what is your favorite color, and I seemed to ask all of these either very direct or indirect questions. It didn't flow like having a cup of coffee and catching up the way that good siblings or even new acquaintances would laugh at shared experiences. We were two awkward ducks in a mucky murky pond. It was very strange to me the interaction. You flew out the door and I had no idea what had just happened. I saw you at work for the next three days and after that...

90 comments:

  1. So you're a gay male??

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  2. Nah, he's more of a game lover. Since ME and myself have some traits in common, I'll extrapolate for you, though ultimately he knows himself better than I do, so full disclosure:

    I (and probably ME) don't see people in terms of what sex they are. On a social level, I see them as real people with real thoughts and feelings. On a sexual level, I see them as walking talking slabs of meat. I don't see them for their reproductive organs, I see them as a series of traditionally feminine and masculine qualities (after all, when I see someone, I don't walk up to them and put my hand down their pants).

    I'll give you an example to clarify what I mean: I recently slept with someone who had soft skin, no facial hair, a slim lean body, and an amazing all natural scent. This person had a pleasantly snippy personality and acted like they were the boss of me. Can you guess their gender? It was a male. And although we didn't fuck (it was mostly sucking and cuddling), I would have had just as much fun inflicting an orgasm on him as I would any other girl. For me, it's not the sex of the person I'm sleeping with that matters (though it does dictate what can be done), it's the joy of convincing that person to surrender their control and power over their orgasms to me- seduction is like a game.

    For the empaths wondering what this may be like, allow me to make the following analogy: Think of the last time you ate steak. Was it tender? Was is rare? Well done? Juicy? Now ask yourself "Did I enjoy it?" Now ask yourself "Did it come from a boy cow or a girl cow?" Can't answer that one? Don't worry, it doesn't matter. And now ask yourself one more question, "Do I really care about the sex of the meat in question, as long as it satisfied my hunger and desires?"

    Now we can further expand this analogy further by asking what purpose did this piece of meat have in the first place? Did it's mother give birth to it for the sole reason for it to satisfy our desires? Probably not, unless it had a sadistic mother like mine, but I digress.

    The meat we eat and the people we seduce are much the same: we are using them to satisfy our wants and needs in a way that it's parents probably did not intend. Does that make it wrong? Not necessarily, because we are all adaptable people, and we all use and are used by people to fulfill our wants and needs, however subconsciously. For the sociopaths amongst us, we are more honest with ourselves with those facts of life and have no need to disillusion ourselves with rationalizations.

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    1. But you are not honest with others and that's why you are evil monsters. If you search for meat, say so, you might find meat, you are also meat.

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  3. "we are using them to satisfy our wants and needs in a way that it's parents probably did not intend. Does that make it wrong? Not necessarily,"

    It's very cut and dry for you. Your needs have to do with power, control and probably orgasm, although that is one you can make happen yourself.

    You don't have a need for connection like empaths do. Since there is little emotion in a sociopath, I also wonder if there is a sexual orientation. To feel more for one sex than another would mean that you would have to have the emotions to feel that attraction. I could perfectly understand how sexually you would see people as slabs of meat. The positive in that, is, that you are able to see people for who they are without being distracted by a person's sexuality, like with most empaths.

    It is not wrong if both people are aware that they are being used. If one person is lead to believe by the other that there is a special emotional connection, then that is wrong in my opinion.
    Zan

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  4. I liked your comments Morrigans. I have screwed both men and women and you’re right. It can potentially be fun either way. The reasons need only make sense to me.

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  5. Btw Zan, you asked:

    I also wonder if there is a sexual orientation.

    I won’t speak for anyone else, but for me, sexual orientation isn’t real. It’s like all of the other major identity markers that normals take for granted. I neither believe in nor do I feel any connection to the labels of hetero/homo/bi-sexual. It’s all equal to me. That wasn’t a philosophical choice either. That’s how my own experience of sexuality turned out after puberty.

    Maybe I’m “try-sexual”.

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  6. do S and Ps actually feel any sexual attraction to anyone? i ask because in theory we arent supposed to feel anything,right? so getting turned on should be out the window....

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  7. Interesting question. I think that's just human instict you know.. reproduce, chemical, hormonal. You don't have to feel love or concern for anyone to have sex with them. Wouldn't describe me though.

    Grace

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  8. It seems to me, given what I have learned about sociopathology through personal experience by dating one and having read alot, that there would be such a thing as sexual attraction but it would not be the same as for empaths. For the socio, the sexual attraction is based on a goal. Possibly the person is a sexual challenge or is exceptionally good looking and is good for the ego of the socio, or possibly the person has money. Once the socio attains whatever it is that he/she was looking for, the attraction is no longer. There seems to be a relationship between the socios sex drive and the thrill of the chase. The more thrilling the chase and the higher the stakes the more sexually reved up the socio is. I don't know that this would qualify as sexual attraction because it isn't about anyone else other than the socio, his wants and desires which have nothing to do with the other person. I do believe that some socios that do not have alot of self awareness possibly confuse the adrenaline rush related to the anticipation and planning of the goal oriented seduction with attraction. Socios truly know how to make their target feel desired and can almost perform on demand. It really is amazing. Sigh.....i miss the fantasy so! Why did I ever have to wake up....lol
    Zan

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  9. Oh, I just remembered, here's one for the socio men. What does it feel like to you when a woman gives you a backrub? Do you just want to run out of the room or what? I tried to give my ex a backrub and he recoiled with disgust. He behaved like cat does when it is scared, you know how it's back arches and all their hair sticks up. Why would anyone not like a backrub? I thought all men did until I learned about socios.....or was that specific to the ex?
    Zan

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    1. My borderline liked backrubs... I got, I thinkkk, 3 out of the 5 years we had ...what I can minimize down to... our "thing"
      (Ugh.)
      considering over half of it was secret. Silly me for trusting someone elese's logic and accepting it.

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  10. For me, it's not that I don't want to have a connection with someone, it's more that I don't know how to.

    I realize that when people get married, there's three major components to it: love, companionship and sex. I may not know much about how to love people, but I have realized that I love myself, and I can transfer some of that love onto others. Take my roommate for example. I love him. It could be that he reminds me of myself, it could be that if he dropped dead right this moment it would take me a while to find someone to pay his share of the rent. He's figured out that I'm a sociopath, and he has no interest in outing me to my rabbi. On the other hand, he's a tad emotionally retarded, so either he's one too or he's just a guy who's really been affected by his army training. We haven't had sex, mostly because it would probably make things awkward for him, and thus not be in my best interests. We have a kind of unspoken companionship with each other. There are times when we just lay down on our couches in our underwear, just watching the Military channel, making fun of other countries failed strategies. I like those times because without him I'd be left with the tv and my thoughts. And boredom is not good for a person like me.

    When I have sex with people, it's not about the power and control they willing hand me, though it's a part of it. It's the artisan in me. Everyone's different, but we all have the same nerve endings more or less. It's how I stimulate them to orgasm that I like the most. For some reason, it seams that everyone puts such high importance on orgasm, like it's some kind of holy grail or something. I've had many orgasms in my life, and for me, their not that special. But when I inflict one on someone, they're so grateful for it. And that is my personal Artist's Pride.

    I don't really feel a sexual attraction to others though. I'm more of an asexual with bisexual habits and an opportunistic mindset. As far as emotional attraction goes, I have realized that I do hold other men in more esteem than our womanly counterparts. Living in an Orthodox Jewish community, I can't even shake hands with a woman I'm not related or married to under various modesty laws (unless you count a handshake as a part of a business transaction, and that's debatable.) I've found that men are easier targets to befriend and have sex with. Remember that person I told you guys that I had sex with recently? It's funny, I met him at the shul on during some special event. A few days later I go over to a friend's house to play Pokemon (note to self: act 21 already) and there he was. We had fun snipping at each other, I showed him my tablet computer, he was enamoured it, found some of my "interesting comics," showed them to me, and I respond "well what were they supposed to do in the time chamber for a year?" Long story short, we went to his house, his parents left, leaving us alone, and since he was sweating heavily and not wearing deodorant, I could literally smell his pheromones. What we did together was the first time I actually enjoyed having fun doing it. I even enjoyed the cuddling afterwards.

    I've realized over the years that either I'm immune to the effects of oxitocin, or I don't produce it. Before him, I had the theory that maybe my brain didn't have the receptors needed to enjoy those warm fuzzy feelings. Now I'm just not sure.

    ...

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  11. ...

    This relates to the last post Zan made, I've never really enjoyed the backrubs people have given me. They were always painful, to the point that I've always jumped up like a cat. When people ask me about that, I just tell them that it's just my Asperger's acting up. That always surprises people, I've received it as an official diagnosis, but you wouldn't know it. Plausible Deniability, for the win.

    And to relate to Daniel's comment, I sometimes have a label I can attach to me. I find one that suits my needs best, and it becomes real to me. I'm more than capable of seeing a cute girl and being turned on. If I pursue a relationship with her, I turn straight, because that would make it more preferable to sleep with her than if I was gay. Or bi if she likes that.

    I wish sometimes to know what it would be like to feel the things others feel. Not just so I could hone my mask, but for the stimulation of it. There are some who have called me inhuman before, however I know that it is my desires for the things I do not have that make me human.

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  12. WHAT IN HADES GOOD NAME POSSESSED YOU TO CHOOSE THIS TERRIBLE LIGHTNING THEME?

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  13. what in hades good name possessed you to write in all capslock?

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  14. I'm noticing a trend that makes me wonder if sociopaths generally have poor artistic and aesthetic skills.

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  15. Lovely Miss Medusa: "I'm noticing a trend that makes me wonder if sociopaths generally have poor artistic and aesthetic skills."

    I myself am great at art.

    Also, have you seen Peter's works? They are quite marvelous.

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  16. Hey fucko, I'm no sociopath. Leave my masterpieces out of this.

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  17. :P

    Peter, it's amusing to provoke you. I was generally referring to your art; I was not trying to say you are/were a sociopath.

    I just have a general infatuation with your masterpieces. Why, oh why, have you seduced me, Mr. Wonderful?

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  18. You're just jealous. You're jealous of my awesome art and my awesome intelligence. That's why you like *trying* to provoke me. Because I'm awesome, and you're not. So there. Now, shower me with love and admiration.

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  19. PP: ". . .So there."

    Dan trademarked this phrase a few posts back. He is now capable of suing you for copyright infringement.

    PP: "Now, shower me with love and admiration."

    Your pets don't do this enough for you? :(

    Poor PP. . .

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  20. You're avoiding the fact that I'm due for some hardcore worshipping. Quit beating around the bush, and get on your knees.

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  21. PP: "You're avoiding the fact that I'm due for some hardcore worshipping. Quit beating around the bush, and get on your knees."

    You should probably go after one of the S victims on this site if you're after that, PP.

    Personally, I would start with Zan seeing as I find she can be quite intelligent. Her cheerful demeanor is also nice.

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  22. LOL.....well...............OK...............i guess it would be alright......but only if i could be the queen!
    Zan

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  23. How funny about the back rub thing. Such a small thing really, but I don’t care for them either. I don’t hate them, but that kind of touch does not feel pleasurable to me at all.

    Deux and PP, guys, get a room already. Don’t forget to take the video camera.

    Morrigans: You live in an Orthodox Jewish community? How interesting. So, do you believe in it or are you just there? Or do you know yet?

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  24. Hmmm...i was going to suggest that we double date, well, actually triple date. Morrigans if you can find a partner you can come too. I was thinking Dan, PP, 2, Grace, Zoe and moi. I don't know who wants to pair up with who. All I know is that I am the queen and whoever wants to be the king gets me. So, who's in? Morrigan, if someone isn't interested, your in, K? Sorry, but we just met and we have uneven partners. Let's hold off on the room, Dan, OK? Let's plan a real date. How bout the socio boys plan it. PP, if u don't agree with the plan then u revise it? If i don't agree, well, let's just say that the queen trumps all. OK, boys, where are we going?
    Zan

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  25. let's go gambling! Seems appropriate.

    Grace

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  26. How about a funeral? I hear the suffering gets rather ripe around this time of the year.

    Also. . . Isn't Zoe male? I never could tell.

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  27. Grace, now gambling sounds fun. 2, a funeral, come on now, meet us emps half way would ya. I think Zoe is a female. Zoe what are you and are you coming on our date? I got that impression from one of her posts once, can't remember which one. I personally love roller coasters. What do you think, Dan? Are out now that the room idea has been postponed?
    Zan

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  28. 2 said: "How about a funeral? I hear the suffering gets rather ripe around this time of the year."

    Only if it's yours 2.

    just kidding..I can't even make joke like that.

    I love roller coasters too Zan..Kinda Ka. lol

    I think Zoe is female. A smart one too.

    Grace

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  29. the point i was making was that in order to have satisfiying sex with someone surely there must be a physical desire for that to happen...or not??????are some of you out there that engage in it for the sake of it and not remotely turned on or feel any desire for the other person???? theres no winners in that scenario...

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  30. That sounds awesome, guys. It'll be just like twilight.

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  31. Glad I'm not invited.

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  32. Zan: "2, a funeral, come on now, meet us emps half way would ya."

    I can't help it that I find blabbering religious zealots to be amusing. :(

    That aside, we could always go to the Eiffel Tower.

    Grace: "Only if it's yours 2.

    just kidding..I can't even make joke like that."

    Aww, and that was a good joke, too. </3 My heart now breaks, Madam.

    Grace: "I think Zoe is female. A smart one too."

    Mmm. I kinda tend to agree with you, but let's see what Zoe thinks.. Lol.

    PP: "That sounds awesome, guys. It'll be just like twilight."

    Who would take the role of Edward? That eludes me, because Edward was way too emo for any of us.

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  34. Congrats Peter! Sounds like your not going to have much time for dating. OR possibly does this mean that you can now afford to fly us all to the Riviera for our date? Why did the man from corporate come down to assess your skills. Had he heard about you? Was your skill in particular demand? What is your skill if you don't mind me asking? It's always nice to read good news. Things can get a bit glum at times on this site. We need to keep the good vibes going!
    Zan

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  35. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  36. Actually, I think I'd rather not spam any personal information on this site, no matter how vague I think it is. Sorry!

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  37. I hear that PP. But there really is no way for any of us to get personal info from here right? I had a paranoid thought that one of you socios might be my ex. Then to make it worse I thought he implanted a spy device in my car...he insisted on doing some work on my car before the break up. Weird right?

    Grace

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  38. Well, Peter, who could blame you for wanting to share with your new found friends such good news! I totally understand your concern. I deleted my post that followed since it was very telling of yours. So much for the Riviera...
    Zan

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  39. Peter,
    Shoot! I thought I deleted my comment by clicking on the icon at the L top part of my comment but it did not delete. I didn't see any option for me to delete. I think that because I entered my comment under anonymous there is no option to delete. Your name lights up in blue enabling you to click on it. "Anonymous" does not light up. If you would like me to ask ME to remove my comment, I would be fine with doing so. Just let me know, K?
    Zan

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  40. Hi Grace,
    I hear ya! No that is not weird. I have had some paranoid thoughts about this site too. This site is very edgy and there is a sense of a bit of danger because of the sinister reputation as well as the intelligence of the sociopath. One can never really be sure what they are dealing with on a site like this and there is always a bit of a concern about whether you could be tracked down, especially given that this site is sponsored by a socio. It is a judgement call for sure. I have learned that I canot always trust my judgement, but in this case, I think ME seems to be a person that is living his life with strong consideration for the boundaries that are set by society in general. Of course I don't know him or what he does in his personal life, but he communicates in a thoughtful way that seems to consider the norm while explaining his perspecive, bringing out the diffence between the two in a non-threatening way. Hope that makes sense. Bottom line, I feel safe but there is always that little monkey in the back of my head that says "what if"? When one has a strong imagination, the monkey can get rather big at times...lol
    Zan

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  41. Thanks Zan! To tell you the truth I didn't think ME would do anything like that because that would compromise what he has developed here. No I think he's pretty neutral about what he reads and just wants to give socios a place to communicate. It's the other peeps though. Or even you and I Zan..lol. We're undercover agents..Yeah right!!

    Sorry got so off the subject..what was the subject here anyway? omg

    Grace

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  42. OK, Peter, I am going to even things out a bit. I have personal thing to share. I really could use some feedback on this one. I realize that it has nothing to do with the post but it seems that it doesn't seem to matter on this site. The conversation goes where it goes which I think is cool.

    OK, what would you do in this situation? Say you share an office with 2 people. You drag yourself into work one day feeling horrible. You realize that you should have stayed home but you knew that your job could be on the line if you did. You drink lots of coffee, hoping that it will take away your extreme fatigue, but instead it makes it worse and on top of things you feel like your are going to jump out of your skin.

    You can't do any work and you all you want to do is lay your head down on the desk. Then you think if I could just lay down for a couple of minutes it would give me what I need to get going. So you explain to your office mates how you are feeling and you lay down on the floor under your desk for about 10 minutes. You get up, feel better and get through the day.

    1 week later, another co-worker brings up a picture that was taken of you as you were resting on the floor. I suppose it was suppose to be a joke, but I specifically asked that these people respect my confidence and I trusted them. The other office mate had nothing to do with this. I am concerned that the picture that my office mate who I obviously did not know as well will somehow be used against me in the future resulting in the loss of my job, bribery etc. You cannot see my face in the picture so I could deny that it is me. I am considering going to my boss and spilling the beans before there is any opportunity for this. If I do that, it is likely that she will be fired because of the fact that she shared it with other co-workers and it was a violation of my privacy. She is already in hot water with the management. If you were me what would you do? Please don't say that I shouldn't have lied down on the floor in the first place. That is a given, but if you had felt as lousy as I did that day, you would have possibly done the same thing. I felt so physically ill that i thought i wasn't gonna make it. Have you ever had a day like that?
    Zan

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  43. Zan, not that you asked me but you could ask this person why they did that, if they have some intentions with it and you could mention it was wrong on their part to do that. Don't say anything negative about yourself lying under the desk...after all that's no ones business. If your boss saw this then that's between you and the boss. If you don't feel comfortable with that..then you can just go to your boss and ask to have a confidential conversation with him/her. Make sure you say confidential. Or better yet go to your HR manager if there is one. Let them direct you. Tell what happened and how you were feeling ill. You don't have to say you were sleeping under the desk don’t get specific...just say you put your head down..which is true. You can say "I'm letting you know because I fear it will get to you behind my back and that will cause you, as in you, embarrassment. They may ask who took it..that's a tough call to make. Chances are if this person brings it to the boss they will get in trouble for taking the picture. If they went to the boss and told them about it without a picture that might be different. The picture is inappropriate behavior on your co worker..period. I would have that conversation first though..feel them out and see how they react…just make it clear to them if they show it to anyone they will get in trouble…make it their problem more than yours because it is.
    But Zan how the hell did you fit under the desk..lol. don’t answer that. I fell asleep during calculus class last semester and fell out of the chair. I was so embarrassed but the prof quickly stopped the kiddy classmates from laughing. But that five minutes made a big difference.

    Grace.

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  44. Thanks Grace! That's great advice. I was leaning in the direction of doing what you suggested. That is probably what I will do.

    "But Zan how the hell did you fit under the desk..lol."

    You'd be amazed at the places you will fit and your willingness to contort your body accordingly when you are feeling ill and exausted at work!

    "I fell asleep during calculus class last semester and fell out of the chair."

    OMG, Grace that is my biggest nightmare! Glad you overall got some benefit from the sleep even though it was a rude awakening...lol.

    Thanks for the advice AND YES I was asking you. Have a great day!

    Zan

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  45. If your relationship with your boss is good, just be honest about it. Tell him you needed to lay down for a few minutes to make sure you were OK to keep working, but make sure you start the story off by showing him how embarrassed you are.

    I don't know that I'd mention that you asked your coworker to keep it in confidence. That sounds like a shady deal gone bad, and I think you'd get less sympathy that way.

    In my opinion it's always best that your superiors hear anything negative about you from you first. Just try not to make it seem like you're only doing it because you would've been "caught" anyway. Keep the focus on your embarrassment, which is where your focus is anyway, right?

    People frequently go wrong trying to hide things, overcompensating with their justifications, keeping too many secrets, etc. There's very little a boss likes less than an employee he can't trust.

    If you're worried about the other employee getting fired, let your boss know that you don't think he means any harm by it. If he gets fired anyway, tough cookies for him. He's the one spreading embarrassing photos and putting you in a difficult situation. IMHO he's forcing your hand.

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  46. I would like to follow that up by saying that I wouldn't leave this in your coworker's hands, especially considering what he's already done. Unless you're good pals, I wouldn't talk to him about it before covering your ass. If things don't go well, that conversation could quickly turn into a race for an audience with the boss, and that will look very bad.

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  47. Zan let us know how it went. Good advise PP to Zan. That's a strange situation to be in. I would have to ask for help on that one too.

    Grace.

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  48. Thank you PP and Grace! I will definitely let you know what the outcome is.

    "That's a strange situation to be in. I would have to ask for help on that one too."

    I am a total magnet for weird situations like this. I think it's because I tend to like eccentric people. Often I write them off as simply eccentric, begin to trust them and form what I think are meaningful relationships, only to learn that their eccentricity is really "personality disordered". There are plenty of personality disordered people that are harmless and fine to be around but when you start talking borderline, just about anything can happen. Sorry, if there are any BL's reading, but my personal experiences have not been good, but, hey, who am i? Just Zan...
    Z

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  49. "Often I write them off as simply eccentric, begin to trust them and form what I think are meaningful relationships, only to learn that their eccentricity is really "personality disordered"."

    That's interesting Zan. But how do you come to learn that? How do you know it's a bp disorder? I know some characteristics are fear of being abandoned, anger, moods, etc..are you talking about the unpredictability part of it..I don't know too much about it. Can sociopaths have this disorder?

    Grace

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  50. Grace,
    Since my last relationship I have done a ton of research into personality disorders. I knew nothing about them but was amazed when I researched the subject how prevalant PD's are. I was dismayed to find out how incredibly disfunctional my family is most likely due to PD's. Of course I am not a psychiatrist and it is not my place to diagnose but once you have learned the traits they are very easy to spot. As a ER nurse, I dealt with PD's all the time but for many years I did not realize that that is what I was dealing with. Many people with PD's cover it up with alcohol and drugs. The psychiatric world does not really address PD's enough because they are seen as just about impossible to treat and are therefore essentially ignored. In nursing school they briefly touched on BP but did not mention sme of the biggies like narcissistic personality disorder, sociopathology etc. Many people are affected by these personality types in ways that are quite devastating and they have no clue about what they have been hit with. I grew up with NPD and had an extremely difficult childhood because of the person that was affected. Many people who have one personality disorder have a mix of them. Bipolar mood disorder is not considered a personality disorder but rather a mental illness because it can be treated with medication. The PD's cannot be treated with meds unless there are certain symptoms that can be managed, like compulsive behavior etc. Most of the PD's are not treatable because they are satisfied with how they are. They don't think they have a problem. They feel that the problem is everyone else. The other scenario is that they know something is not right but they can't identify it. They just have a feeling that they are different somehow. Personally I don't think they know enough about PD's to make any kind of statement that it is untreatable. I do think that there are those that have some introspection and want to fit in as contributing members of society. It's the ones that are always causing drama and creating problems for others that spoil it for the rest. These are just my personal thoughts. I am not a professional, just someone who has eperienced and read alot. So, take what you can use and leave the rest. I agree, Grace, it is very interesting! I tend to feel bad for people affected because from what I have observed it can be a rough life. They don't really understand themselves and as a result others cannot understand them either.
    Zan

    ReplyDelete
  51. I have a Borderline Personality Disorder and, honestly, we're not all dangerous and unpredictable except, perhaps, to ourselves! I have read your comments on the site with interest and I must confess that given your battles with your emotions and your obsession with your ex I came to the conclusion that you may have some borderline traits. I hope you don't take this as an insult, it isn't intended as such, just food for thought. I have a sociopathic ex (diagnosed) and it was the insanity that exploded in the aftermass that lead to me being diagnosed as BPD. The attraction between BPD and sociopathy is fascinating to me!

    Take care

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  52. Anonymous,
    I don't take offense at all. Can you be more specific as to what things that I have discussed that have lead you to wonder that? I do think that any normal person who finds out that they have been in love with a fraud for 3 years would be devastated to the point of temporary insanity. I know from therapy that this is the case and that there are some people that never truly recover from such a situation. I do believe that it is a bit of a stretch to say that it is because of BPD. Possibly you could say I went temporarily borderline...lol.

    I also believe that the attraction between personality types is very fascinating. How do you know you have BPD? Were you officially diagnosed?

    I know that I can be sensitive. I also know that I am at 2 opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to trust. I either trust too easily or I am not trusting enough of others. I know that I had a very difficult childhood which left me with many things to overcome. It is very difficult to see yourself sometimes. I don't think I have BPD, but who knows. I have read about it and there were aspects that I could relate to. I agree, not all BP's are dangerous. I appreciate your honesty and the kind way that you sugested the possibiliy of me having borderline traits. I will read up on this some more. I hope not but it wouldn't be the end of the world. I am what I am, whatever lable I carry. I know who I am and if it falls into some labled category, so be it. I know I am a good person that tries to be the best I can.
    Zan

    ReplyDelete
  53. To Zan

    I believe you're absolutely right to suggest that any 'normal person' in your situation would be devastated and I'm not saying that you may have a full blown borderline personality disorder, just some of the painful traits. I vaguely remember a discussion you had (I think it was with Daniel Birdick - not sure?) about your emotions and how you wanted to be able to take a step back from them, not allowing them to rule you and completely influence your judgement. I suppose that's when I started thinking along the lines of borderline traits as the disorder is predominantly an emotional one, leading to rotten judgment and sometimes irrational behaviour.

    It was after the 'socio' situation that I officially 'lost it' and was referred to psychiatric services and henceforth labelled 'borderline' (a label I'm not comfortable with - I hate being squashed into 9 neat boxes!). 'Socio boy' never knew how much he had affected me - thank god - he would have had a royal feast on my pain! I believe the attraction between us was based on my weird and exaggerated emotions and his total lack of them - somehow, for a very short period of time we just seemed to 'fit'.

    This was all quite some time ago and with age and therapy I have stabilised considerably. He didn't cause my disorder, my rotten childhood did. He just brought it back up to the surface (I suppose he did me a favour on reflection).

    I suggested the possibility of BPD traits to you because of the afore mentioned thread I read between you and DB. I don't know if you've heard of it but there is a particularly effective treatment for BPD (and related traits) called DBT (dialectical behaviour therapy). This helps to regulate emotions and to reconcile emotions with reason. I thought that, perhaps, some of the practices involved would be of some use to you in helping you to overcome some of the pain related to your emotions.

    Take care of you.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anonymous,
    I am sorry that you had to go through it too. It does sound like the dynamics of both our situations are similar. Thank you for the DBT recommendation. I will read about it and if I think it would be useful, I will check it out. You take care also.
    Zan

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  55. I'm not sure that the above is true for you but it’s up to you to look into it. Just know that many people could fall into this category and a lot of us could use a little DBT now and then. It just helps bring awareness to emotions and behavior so we can be objective about what's really going on within us and see our overactive selves. I am guilty of letting my emotions rule my day no doubt but the sensibility in me always returns. So don't think there is something wrong with you that we all have trouble with and that is pretty “normal”.
    I know a woman who suffered from this disorder big time and it was hard to diagnose and treat until her therapist realized what she had. She was a mess..suicidal, blaming everyone for her problems, reacting to hurt feelings all the time and all that jazz. She ended up in a 12 step program that pretty much set her straight. You don’t communicate like that here but only you would know.

    Grace

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  56. Zan
    I'm not sure that the above is true for you but it’s up to you to look into it. Just know that many people could fall into this category and a lot of us could use a little DBT now and then. It just helps bring awareness to emotions and behavior so we can be objective about what's really going on within us and see our overactive selves. I am guilty of letting my emotions rule my day no doubt but the sensibility in me always returns. So don't think there is something wrong with you that we all have trouble with and that is pretty “normal”.
    I know a woman who suffered from this disorder big time and it was hard to diagnose and treat until her therapist realized what she had. She was a mess..suicidal, blaming everyone for her problems, reacting to hurt feelings all the time and all that jazz. She ended up in a 12 step program that pretty much set her straight. You don’t communicate like that here but only you would know.

    Grace.

    this may post twice..don't know why I don't see it from the first time.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Thank you Grace for your support. I don't think I am borderline because even though I can be quite emotional, I blame myself more than others for things. I have been guilty in the past of blaming my parents for things, but, I in many ways I believe that the blame was warranted. One can only blame parents for so long before they get a grip, make an attempt to understand their situation and do the work required to get their head screwed back on straight. I am rather introspective and almost always have looked for my part in things. I try to make ammends when it is called for. When I was in my 20's, I was a mess. I could have easily been thought of as borderline but I think it was more emotional confusion related to all the trauma and abuse I had been through as a child. Lables are a scary thing. Everyone comes from such different places and we don't fit so easily in one nice little neat box. I think I opened up a can of worms when I brought up bordeline PD. I appologize for that. One cannot generalize about any one group of people and I was wrong to do that. I really was just trying to share my experience with that dx and in doing so I lumped all BD's together. Big mistake. Please accept my apology.
    Zan

    ReplyDelete
  58. Wow, this is actually one of the archived posts I read when I first came upon SW.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Hi, this is for Mach:

    why do you call yourself Machavellian again? i know when you first came you said, but i don't recall. I wonder if it is because you have gotten much from your life by allowing the way you read people to benefit you almost (but not really)the way the sociopath does. I find that people (myself included --on a good day!)who are good at reading cues from others get social perks.

    Do you or anyone else here for that matter consider ^this^ thing i describe as Machavellian?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I've always loved Machiavelli, and view "The Prince" as a brilliant piece of satire. Machiavellian reasoning (in terms of its association with the dark triad traits) gets a bad rap. Just because you know how to manipulate someone, doesn't mean you have to use that information. I think of Machiavelli as being the most brilliant psychologist to date because he located the hidden levers and buttons within the human psyche. He argues for prudence, self control, filtering all emotional responses through logic before they are expressed in behavior, and -most importantly- careful observation of the individual (friend or foe) that you are interacting with. These skills are morally neutral.
      Because sociopaths don't have as much emotional static as empaths, they tend to develop them earlier in life. My less than idyllic childhood and analytical nature were the impetus for me to begin cultivating these particular skills earlier. Empathy is very useful when you are a parent but is more of a hindrance when you are dealing with people who want to exploit you. As a younger woman I fell prey to having this part of my personality used against me. I have more feelings than I know what to do with (other than channel it into painting and poetry- which I deliberately try to channel my intensity into to spare the individuals who have to deal with me daily)

      What's funny is the negative reaction people have to statements like "Machiavellian". It's assumed that if you are a student of human behavior you will automatically use that knowledge for dark purposes.

      Delete
    2. Thank you ! This has explained so much for me.

      I am like a different person when i do what you describe.
      DO you shift who you are with the people you are with??

      I have a very similar time with a sociopath bf. I communicated without emotion many times, I would not even bat an eye if he was maybe about to do something nice for me because i wanted him to see my emotion AFTER. I wanted him to think he had made me so happy. Which he did. Crumb happy, though. He did things like buy me things, but not before telling me nasty things. But i chose not to show anything until he did the nice thing, i sensed that if he saw anticipation he would prob decide "fuck her, who wants to make that bitch happy today" Yes i could read his little antisocial brain.

      I will broadcast my emotions to other people so they will know how to treat me. and i will broadcast emotion to people who need to see me excited for them or if they desire a certain emotional response. I give those things away because they are social graces desirable.

      I am also very emotional though.
      When i have a normal bf i put out emotions but they are many times not known to me for a while after i figure out what is going on. . i have to sometimes dig for how i feel... it is confusing to them and me too.

      the other day i said to someone "ok now i am getting irritated"
      Do you do that? do you name your emotions? Then they said "dont get irritated with me" and i wanted to clobber them softly, but i chose to say that I was in a bad mood, which i was. I do not think i could complain the real reason i was irritated because it would be a complaint about them and they are just human being i have no right to change. Do you understand?

      Delete
    3. wow something weied just happened.



      i was irritated and the person looked inside themself and explained to me what was going on with them, and that might explain my irritation and they were right. they cared enough to want to fix something before i wanted to. then they said i t was so easy to talk to me without tempers flaring. .

      Delete
    4. @1105- sounds like both of you have developed emotional intelligence. For an individual, that's admirable- for a couple- my hat is off to you. Very hard to do...
      @1014- not sure if its a conscious shift, more like a choice to avoid dropping an f bomb around elderly relatives and talking about my personal life/feelings in a work context. More about trying to be sensitive to the situation.
      As for how you handled your sociopath, sounds like you have a good intuitive sense of how to wear a poker face so he can't play you like a fiddle. Good job!

      Delete
    5. thank you very much, Mach.
      about the shift, what i mean is when you have high emotion or when you do not feel like giving away your feelings to someone, to stay in logic mode so they can better hear.

      it is something i do with some men who do not have the patience for emotions. With them, i get what i want (or threaten) through telling cause and effect, and if i still do not get what i want, i shift (not too terribly manipulatively, just so the point is driven home so as to put importance on the matter. -i think men are afraid of us women running around with knives, like chickens with cut off heads when we get angry, but they expect some emotion or they think all is fine and dandy)

      I have to be careful with my emotions because i do not want to look like a serial killer on the loose if i let them go. I know i do, because i have been told i am scary. This is for anger, but when i am sad, i am angry too, so it feels like the same thing applies. It is a problem when i am disappointed to hold in my emotions. when i am happy, it is all over my face, too. The antisocial would say ah ha that made you happy, didnt it. And then i was feeling a bit embarrassed. It was over him making room for my stuff in his medicine cabinet But do you now what i think?? i think people should all be. tuned in like that. They should always look for what makes you happy, and do it over and over again.

      the sad thing, is that i do not like to show i ahappy for little things like that aymore. it just feels like i should not have to be so elated we someone is a tiny bit nice. i do not want them to see how such a small thing makes me so happy, because i think t makes me idk..pitiful.




      Delete
  60. I checked out that datingasociopath.com website and found it rather interesting. It seemed like the vast majority of negative actions taken by the 'sociopath boyfriends' were heavily dependent on narcissism. For example, my wife successfully isolated me from mutual friends and did her absolute best to separate me from my family. She also worked to sabotage me behind my back and was constantly invading my privacy. She benefited substantially from being married to me, and I gave her most of what she asked for.

    Fortunately, I didn't really care for those friends and my family trusted me much more than they trusted her. Also, I was able to coldly examine our relationship and carefully remove myself from it.

    The author of that blog claims to have dated three sociopaths. I think it's more likely she dated three narcissists. She also claims that sociopaths are incapable of change. I've found that narcissism is the root cause of my antisocial behavior, which nearly kicked me off my career path. Changing my narcissistic behavior took time and effort, but it was hardly impossible.

    I'm looking forward to Jessi twisting my words and calling me a nasty sociopath, Misanthrope making vague assertions phrased as loaded questions, and Mach sympathizing and agreeing with me. I challenge you to change it up. Defy my judgment and do your best to respond in the opposite direction of your personal opinions. Test your ability to argue the other side, and whatever your true position is will become that much stronger.

    You can start by pointing out my stated lack of narcissism and how well that fits with this desperate cry for attention ;)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. game on.

      I suspect that if you didn't really care for the mutual friends in the first place, they probably liked your ex wife better all along. They probably put up with you and were more than happy to see you go. In fact, I bet they've set her up with someone who is far more sensitive to her needs, because you obviously had no clue how to meet them or she would not have had to seek "comfort" elsewhere.

      as far as the narcissistic boyfriends theory I would simply add that sociopaths are some of the best friends to have because they are not whiny little bitches and they have a low tolerance for boredom. The only downside is that they have no loyalty. Narcissists are far more annoying because they need constant reassurance, and the biggest annoyance of dating one is their endless neediness. It's particularly upsetting to be unceremoniously dumped by someone who has asked you to play their personal Stuart Smalley for X amount of time.

      Delete
    2. In all honesty, I was already tired of them before she brought out the big guns. She was fond of, what was it called, 'gaslighting?' me in front of them, and they ate it up, so I stopped going out with them. Her greatest play was going to a women's shelter, though I'd never laid a hand on her in all the years we'd been together. She told our friends, her family, and my family that I physically abused her. She thought that having a record of going to the shelter would give her false claims legitimacy.

      As for the guy she was screwing, that was her guitar-playing, effeminate hippie drug dealer of a boyfriend. They were soulmates, until a couple months later when he moved 1,500 miles away with his boyfriend. She's leeching off a couple of her friends now, still clinging hard to her victim status. I want nothing to do with her, though I am curious how long they'll put up with her.

      I am loyal to the point of my own detriment, and I care very little for having power over others. I don't want comfort or pity. Of course, being called a sociopath means I'm a habitual liar, so anything I say that suggests I'm not a monster will just be dismissed as a falsehood. Go ahead, put me in your little labeled box, I'm content to stay there. Don't forget to slap a warning label on it, because whether or not I'm dangerous, I would at least prefer to be left the fuck alone by people who can't see past their stereotypes.

      Delete
    3. You will be able to break the spell of dependency (that you prefer to reframe as loyalty) when you give up the idea that x amount of input will be reciprocated in a manner that is agreeable to you. Once you understand that a person's idea of a relationship (i.e.- you give100 they give2 = fair) is not one that you care to continue participating in, cutting the cord is easier.

      Of course, if you are loyal in the super decent guy kind of way (not the pathologically needy way) that is very sweet and will serve you well in future relationships, because you no doubt have been given a very good education by your ex wife about what you DO NOT want in a partner.

      Delete
    4. It feels good sometimes to be a raging cynic. I don't know whether I should pursue short-term or long-term relationship goals, or if it's even possible to act in a way that distinguishes the two. What I need is more self-control in conversations. I don't think I can be totally cold, as people like Jessi would prefer. I could be more aloof, less intense so that people don't get the impression that we're soulmates.

      Delete
    5. Hello andy - nasty sociopath, apparently the wooden stake didn’t work since it has to be placed in the heart and you have none…

      Narcissists don’t tell you all kinds of amazing things about yourself. Sociopaths have also narcissistic traits; maybe that’s why you missed your analysis.

      Delete
    6. "She was fond of, what was it called, 'gaslighting?' me in front of them, and they ate it up, so I stopped going out with them. Her greatest play was going to a women's shelter, though I'd never laid a hand on her in all the years we'd been together. She told our friends, her family, and my family that I physically abused her. She thought that having a record of going to the shelter would give her false claims legitimacy."

      Of course... she was gaslighting and place your friends against you and accused you falsely. Poor sociopath, is it hard to play the pity game so we feel sorry for you?

      Delete
    7. When children living in adult bodies are ignored they tend to behave in an ever more dramatic fashion to get attention.
      The saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" certainly applies, with the caveat that man children also manifest this behavior if their pride is wounded. At a certain point, however, you just have to let them scream into the wind and not take it personally. The way she behaves is her issue, and only yours to the extent you allow it to be.

      Your ex wife (and individuals with similar levels of pathology) will likely conform to this pattern of behavior until a new target is located. She is bullying you by trying to weaken your social ties. Not letting her see that she gets to you is the best revenge and will cause her to implode once she realizes her impotence.

      Delete
    8. Are you going to answer my question now andy?

      Delete
    9. the sound of silence is a beautiful thing.

      Delete
    10. stuart smalley haaha

      i undertand you. i have narcissism and i have dated other narcissist types. yes yes yes

      in my town there are many pussy entitled men who need ego boosting. one of my friends said to me once: you think if you love them just a little bit more ,... just a little bit more....no! no, you need to love them less lol

      Delete
    11. jesse , narcissists will absolutely tell you all sorts of lovely things. it makes them seem generous.

      Delete
    12. @Jessi I don't really shower people with praise. I just pay attention to them. The implied compliment is that I find them interesting and engaging, which is true. I place very little value in superficial compliments, so I rarely dole them out. If I compliment someone, it's because I find them truly remarkable. I don't want your pity, but I'll take a hug or a kiss on the cheek ;)

      I have new friends now, Mach, and if she tries messing with them, I will not be kind.

      I throw money around a little bit, because I make a lot more than she does. When she asks for monetary favors, though, I make her work for it. I like to remind her of that disparity. I have no pity for her, though. She spends what little money she has on booze, weed, cigarettes, and eating out.

      I won't separate her from her friends and family, she does that well enough for herself. She'll leech off everyone she can until none remain.

      Delete
    13. Andy I misjudged you. May I ask for consideration of my penitence?

      I was joking about all the things I said, and it was just me being bored.

      Delete
    14. Jessi, what makes you think all sociopaths are identical? Do not empathetic folk possess varying degrees of different personality traits? Psychopathy itself is a disorder that manifests upon a spectrum. Why do you insist upon painting all sociopaths with the same broad strokes?

      Not all psychopathic traits are inherently "immoral". A person can be impulsive, emotionally shallow, fearless, reckless, manipulative, prone to irresponsible behaviour, and lacking in empathy- all without being "evil".

      Your personal negative experiences have caused you to pigeonhole a segment of the population in accordance with your own prejudices, which you self-righteously cling to, even in the face of evidence which should dismantle them. This smug pride is what allows you to feel superior to those who victimized you, but it has also narrowed your perception, and left you steeped in vitriol and bitterness. When you finally let go of your hatred for those who mistreated you, you will effectively remove the log from your own eye. Only then will you see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's.

      Delete
    15. Isn't it amusing that jessi behaves in a much more "anti-social" manner then most of the sociopathic types on this site. A fascinating little contradiction there. Jessi, are you certain your not the "monster" you claim to hate?

      Delete
  61. Do you think it's necessary to go through such emotional torment? Why
    not just buy the sex and make a business transaction of it? Sex is nothing
    but a pleasurable physical release with a person who has the physical
    attributes you like. Like Travis Alexander, who spoke with marbles in his
    mouth about how "He loved the braids." Jodie was nothing to him but a
    "booty call." Did you ever hear the song "What's Love Got To Do With It?"
    Speaking of "love" (Which most people wouldn't recongnise even if it was
    right before them.) It's only been in the last few hundred years that
    people even married for "love." Marriages were political/business transations
    Women were kept in the home (An old version of female sexual mutilation)
    while the men were free to go out and about. Woe to the woman who was
    caught with a man outside her prison/home.
    If you do want to find a compatable person, a relationship not just based
    on passing fancy, then you must make use of the reams of information
    about personality type avaible on the internet and other sources.
    Once you have DETAILED information about your perspective partner under
    (But not limited to) Chinese Astrology, Western Astrology (Only bother
    with Western Astrology if you have ALL the relevent birth data.) Chaldean
    numerology, Myers/Briggs, the Enneagram, Oriental Face Reading, Graphology etc... should you even imagine you have a shot at a lasting
    relationship.
    Of course 90% of the people reading this will ridicule and reject what
    I'm saying out of hand. My only response to that is until you investigate
    and see for yourself you have no reason to believe.

    ReplyDelete
  62. ^Bullshit. I've been in a successful marriage for over a decade, and I was not privy to any of that information. Love is a choice and a commitment. If you assess the worth of your relationship solely in terms of your feelings, it is likely to fail. Romance is overesteemed, and pragmatism, undervalued.

    ReplyDelete
  63. My name is Jane, I found a great spell caster online who helped me to get back my husband who has left me for pass 1 year. we where married for 8years without a child and my friend introduce me to a real spell caster which i never believe it exist but after the meeting of this spell caster my problem where solved and now i am with my husband who left me for pass 1 year my life and my entire family are now happy now we are both expecting a baby with the help of this great spell caster. Thanks Dr. Lee of Ancientfathersandmothers@gmail.com if you need any spell, you can email him and he will be in the best position to help you. I wish you good luck and success.

    ReplyDelete

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