Thursday, August 7, 2014

Criminal psychopath and the PCL-R

It must be psychopath week at NPR, because a reader sent me yet another article on psychopaths. This time the focus is on the plight of a criminal who gets diagnosed a psychopath and then is denied parole on the basis of that diagnosis, as well as the legitimacy of a three hour test that basically determines your personality/predispositions/fate -- the PCL-R. The most personally interesting part was the simple explanation of the origins of the original PCL:
"Science cannot progress without reliable and accurate measurement of what it is you are trying to study," [Dr. Robert Hare] says. "The key is measurement, simple as that."

And so Hare decided to make a way to measure: a test for psychopaths.

Hare sat down with his research assistant and together they wrote down all the personality traits they'd consistently seen in the psychopaths they'd studied. Things like lack of empathy, lack of remorse, manipulation, egocentricity, impulsivity, superficial charm, psychological lying.

For each of these qualities, Hare wrote up a description so it would be clear what he meant by, say, lack of empathy.

Psychologists using the test were supposed to ask the prisoners a series of questions to determine whether the trait was present. If it was there, the prisoner got 2 points; if it wasn't, zero; if the psychologist couldn't tell, 1 point was awarded.

The test listed 20 traits to check, and so Hare called it the Psychopath Checklist. Scores were totaled at the end — 40 was the highest score, but anything over 30 certified the test taker as a psychopath.

Hare next tested his test to make sure that it was "scientifically reliable" — that two people using the test on the same person would reach the same conclusion about whether that person was a psychopath. In research settings, the PCL-R's reliability appeared astonishingly good.

Voila! The test was born.
No magic, no revelation from God, no genetic or brain scan research validating each personality trait either, and, as mentioned many times before, the PCL-R was based exclusively on his work with psychopaths that he had identified in prison using what he believed were psychopathic traits based on his work with psychopathic prisoners that he had identified using what he believed were psychopathic based on his work with psychopathic prisoners . . . In other words, circular. So although the test proved "astonishingly" reliable, whatever that means, it does not mean at all that it is valid.

The article really paints Dr. Robert Hare in a pretty good light, as a pioneer in shining more light on a highly misunderstood disorder. I don't mean to criticize him as a person, and I do believe that his work is remarkably insightful and accurate given that it still represents the very early stages of understanding psychopathy.

I do find it odd that he personally wields so much power with regard to the subject matter -- if you haven't studied with him, if you don't use his test, you're basically nobody in some people's eyes -- which gets back to my point about the cult of experts. Thankfully, NPR also linked to a few other experts weighing in on the PCL-R. Here are some selections (all direct quotes):
  • By foregrounding intrinsic evil, [the concept of] psychopathy marginalizes social problems and excuses institutional failures at rehabilitation. We need not understand a criminal's troubled past or environmental influences. We need not reach out a hand to help him along a pathway to redemption. The psychopath is irredeemable, a dangerous outsider who must be contained or banished. Circular in its reasoning, psychopathy is nonetheless alluring in its simplicity. . . . Although modern psychopathy is more nuanced than its 19th century ancestor, diagnosing it remains an essentially subjective task.
  • Thanks to tools like the PCL-R, instead of wasting limited resources on a few bad apples, the justice system can focus those resources on the majority of offenders -- those who can profit from a second chance and are, more often than not, motivated to change.
  • [E]xperts disagree the most on the personality component of the PCL-R, perhaps because scoring it involves much more subjective judgment than does the criminal history component. Moreover, existing research suggests it is the criminal history component of the PCL-R -- not the (less reliable) personality component -- that is most helpful in identifying those likeliest to commit future crimes.
Does the PCL-R just measure the tendency of someone to re-offend by (gasp) asking them their criminal history? Very forward thinking, very groundbreaking.

213 comments:

  1. In John Ronson's piece in the Guardian he tells how he met Hare and was, at first a convert, but as time progresses he seem more sceptical.

    Link to story below.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/may/21/jon-ronson-how-to-spot-a-psychopath

    ReplyDelete
  2. Excellence is my only sin.

    ReplyDelete
  3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Everybody here is stupid.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Correction, everybody except Sparklebug. That's if I'm not a sociopath or something. If that's the case she's stupid too.

    ReplyDelete
  6. http://www.fisheadmovie.com/

    Check that out.

    ReplyDelete
  7. http://www.fisheadmovie.com/watch1

    ReplyDelete
  8. "Psychologists using the test were supposed to ask the prisoners a series of questions to determine whether the trait was present. If it was there, the prisoner got 2 points; if it wasn't, zero; if the psychologist couldn't tell, 1 point was awarded."

    This is ridiculous, wouldn't you just lie to hide these traits every time?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You are giving false information. PCL-R is not 3 hours psycologist test whre they ask the psycopath and they take into account his answers. If you had done some simple research or you had information from an officially diagnosed psycopath you would see that is far more different and complicated. The psycologists make a series of interview with a lot of people , family of the psycopath, so called friends, victims, e.t.c. Hare is a scientist , not a moron so to build a test upon psycopath's admissions as he knows that a core feature of psycopathy is pathological lying. Also the psycologists who usee it must receive a certain training before they perform. Also the wofk of Hare is not a reflection of his own belief system but is sciengific. He was based in the wofk of H.Cleckley and in many e perimental paradigms as mri was ot then so developed. Fmri is much more recent than pcl-r. If someone has problem with the fact that some people are brilliant enough and with their hard work leads science one step further , too bad for them. Maybe instead of trying degrade Hare or any other pioneer scientist becose he is consider a kind of specialist or authenticity in his field after 30years of work, you should try maybe to build by yourself M.E something equal. But i keep forgeting that otdr ord charactdristics of psycopathy except lying is swallowness and grqndiosity.

      Delete
  9. i always lie on sych tests the shrinks r so dumb they think im all dumb an slow so they beleeve anything i say they r just so pleesed i can speak it makes them feel like they have helped a retard for the day when i smile an gaze into there eyes with my i am a inocent angel an i love u smile wich i can turn on an off real easy

    ReplyDelete
  10. STFU, dumbass.

    ReplyDelete
  11. question for people who have been institutionalized for mental illness. who hear has been thanked for their presence, and told how much of a pleasure it was working with them?

    ReplyDelete
  12. UKanHaveItYourWayMay 29, 2011 at 8:40 AM

    short story:

    'path: "i revolve my life around the creation and maintenance of human suffering."
    [path suddenly has a heart attack]
    ['path inaudibly mumbles...please, please....cpr.]

    me: cool, have some.
    [coldly begins stealing the 'path's wallet, watch, etc]

    nate: dude, you just let that 'path rot...nice one, lets go use 'paths valuables to buy something.

    me: fuck that, between everything 'path has, it only amounts to like.....1 dollar.

    nate: hahahaha, supposedly 'paths are all very rich and smart.....1 dollar?

    me: they profess to be such, but it's pretense, they usually have quite the run-ins with the legal system, and hence are oft-fucked by society, think bernie madoff.

    nate: sweet, well sayonara to this piece of shit then.

    me: yeah, but one thing we can do for cash....pimp this 'path to that gang of 'paths over there.
    [the gang of 'paths comes over, all get it on, and pay $500.]

    nate: dude that was one good idea, bro.

    me: i know. lets let this piece of shit live....we'll get him later and taser him, so we can keep getting $500, everyday...it's the only way this 'path could ever make decent money.

    nate: that's fucking hilarious, i think you've become a 'path.

    me: me?......nah, i figure use the 'path as they would attempt to use you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Are you mentally challenged?

      Delete
    2. UKAN.

      Sweet. Sardonic? check. Detached? check? Wise but not in a holy sort of way?

      It seems that whoever is posting as UKAN seems to be nearing jedi status.



      Delete
    3. oh wait- just checked the dates. that WAS Ukan in 2011.

      sigh. the legend has not returned.


      ;)

      Delete
  13. That's not nice 8:40

    ReplyDelete
  14. Stumbled upon your blog a few days ago. It has given me a great deal of insight into my last relationship...... I guess I am the codependant who excels at usefulness.

    My ex took me to the cleaners, or I should say I let my ex take me to the cleaners all the while believing that she would gave back at some point. My own sense of denial is remarkable.

    Now, I am demanding that she repay me for all that she took. It's a lot of work to get her to the table, and I think she only shows up because I threaten her with full disclosure to anyone who will listen including the authorities.

    Now she is off with someone new. The more I read, the more I understand and consequently the more accepting I am that she is gone. My question to you is how do I get her to pay for the things she stole?

    I read an article about the Hare PCL-R test. I scored her at 30 based on what I know about her. What is the cut-off number that determines whether, according to Hare, you are a sociopath or not?

    D

    ReplyDelete
  15. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Wow sparklebug, you talk about "pure justice" then talk about how we should label people who haven't even done anything wrong yet.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Anonymous said...

    "question for people who have been institutionalized for mental illness. who hear has been thanked for their presence, and told how much of a pleasure it was working with them?"

    I was thanked and even told that my presence was good for the other people because it let them see what they should do. Funny.

    "Expose her. There are several benefits to this. Even if you don't get re-compensated, you will give her the best instruction possible and gain her strictest attention. You will no longer be or feel like a victim. You may prevent others from being victimized. You will piss in her cheerios. You know it will be fun."

    O sparklebug the 40 year old woman with a 14 year old girls name and the opinions to match. What horrible advice. Look when you try to expose a sociopath you get their attention, yes. It isn't a good thing though. What ensues is a smear campaign. Where she will call you equally crazy and deny any misdoings. Sociopaths are good at manipulation. It is a natural area for us. The other thing is that so many of the things that we do seem completely rational or should I say are completely rational. Self interest and pursuing ones own goals is rational. Even when paired with a disregard for others. If she is a sociopath you aren't going to get your shit. Threats don't work because we lack fear. You better believe though that if you lay it all on the line she will fuck, manipulate, lie to, and fake whatever it takes to make you look like the evil one.

    O sparkle bug you most be bored since they no longer allow executions of retards or maybe that was in your best interest. Also, given enough time with anyone and they might start to look like a sociopath. The fact of the matter is though you've probably met plenty of us. The fact of the matter is for the most part we don't care. We are just trying to get ours. So we can't bother with you.

    So all you who get into a relationship with an S get out or don't. It doesn't matter. People generally don't identify someone as a S when they are with them. It is usually afterwards when they feel used and abused. When you have that many negative emotions running through you how can your opinion not contain a horrible bias?

    ReplyDelete
  18. kesu the sociopath wannabe

    ReplyDelete
  19. i am leaving this bullshit site for good, i think, why even waste time over here with 'paths ALL of which on the earth SUCK!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  20. ........................./´¯/)
    ......................,/¯..//
    ...................../..../ /
    ............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`•¸
    ........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
    ........('(...´(..´......,~/'...')
    .........\.................\/..../
    ..........''...\.......... _.•´
    ............\..............(
    ..............\.............\

    ReplyDelete
  21. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  22. My mother was a single unwed 22 year old who was still in college when I was born. We didn't have much money. My father left 2 days after I was born. I have no trust fund. The reason I got the company is because my father failed to produce a male heir with his wife and he started to see his own mortality. I was in college at the time. When he offered to have me come work for him I knew exactly what he was thinking. So I jumped on even though he had been absent 99% of my life.

    Your assumptions are wrong. You are an idiot. Do some research.

    ReplyDelete
  23. i never got that part, where they say we fear being exposed as sociopaths. If you expose a sociopath for what he is he will just laugh at you as if to say, so what.. or punch you square in the eye.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Finger in kesu's momMay 29, 2011 at 3:03 PM

    ........................./´¯/)
    ......................,/¯..//
    ...................../..../ /
    ............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`•¸
    ........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
    ........('(...´(..´......,~/'...')
    .........\.................\/..../
    ..........''...\.......... _.•´
    ............\..............(
    ..............\.............\

    ReplyDelete
  25. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  26. I believe sparkleplug is right kesu. For all of the nice things I have said about my ex, he was afraid of bumping into his previous ex with me....I don't know why.... My only guess is that he didn't want me to hear from others what a giant douche he was. It pleases me that he has fear. (i am not a doctor, and I am not part of the O'hare family, but I think he is a sociopath.)

    ReplyDelete
  27. So you buy my being an owner of a company but not that I came from humble beginnings? If I wanted to get your sympathy I'd tell you about the beatings I endured and the worse transgressions against me.

    What I was doing was simply pointing a finger at the body part you talk out of. Your ass. You speak with no knowledge. You pathetic little charity working house wife. I know your type. My aunt is you. She is an idiot of epic proportions. She thinks she helps little under privileged kids in urban areas. She thinks she changes their lives for the better. The little fucks still grow up to be gang bangers. They are still stuck in poverty.

    You act like you know. You know nothing. Sociopaths talk here openly. You think we show that face in the real world? You think I don't have several persona's that I live and breath. You naive twit.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Refuting someone's claims in ANYTHING is easy if you have the means. It doesn't matter if it is sociopathy, or just being a shitty person.

    But seeing the storm before it hits makes it a lot easier. I've done it a few times. I generally start a smear campaign in the guise of worry about that person, and say how they're spreading lies about me, etc. so that by the time it does happen, if it does, they'll think the person is an asshole delusional mess.

    And if it happens afterward, all you have to do is look really sad, hurt, and act rationally, looking at that person with judgmental pity.

    There's this great lie purported about exposure, that it's a death sentence in a social structure. Such a claim would have to be proved, and as we read above, getting around the PCL-R, especially someone who isn't a con, wouldn't be too hard. After all, if you played your cards right you would only have one person to interview against you, and that person would be biased with a possible agenda.

    This whole exposing someone as a sociopath is a crusade created by Lovefraud, and the simple fact is that unless you get the bugger locked up, you'll never get the revenge you need.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Luminous Insect-- I suspect the one and only follower of your blog (tags: include death, dysfunction, grief and loss, suicide and poetry) is the husband who 'keeps' you. Now, there are only 8 in Texas who share his name. If I bothered to read your drivel i can say with some measure of certainty that Within five minutes I would triangulate not only the individual but your name, address household income, magazine subscriptions, political affiliation and shoe size.

    In contrast, I know nothing about Kesu.

    Now, I am simply a person (specifically an empath) stuck in traffic. If as a budding fascist, you value anonymity, you might want to dim the light on velveteen spark and perhaps put aside some of your judgement and preaching to share a story about what brings you here.

    This is a rather unique opportunity to break bread with the beasties and most people, gain neither greater awareness nor peace through condemnation.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Break bread with the beasties"...

      So beautifully put, Citronella. Especially that last bit.

      Delete
  30. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  31. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  32. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  33. "Science cannot progress without reliable and accurate measurement of what it is you are trying to study," [Dr. Robert Hare] says. "The key is measurement, simple as that."

    I agree with this statement for just about everything. However, that Hare would form his measurement system on such a limited range of subjects i.e. those within the prison system, lacks an astonishing amount of insight. That it would then be used as a way to dismiss people as unredeemable and beyond means of reintegration is even more disconcerting. To me, it seems that instead of writing off P/S (or any PD) types, instead, the PD should be noted, and then have the knowledge utilized in a way to reroute rehabilitation in a direction that is functional.

    It’s like a prison guards guide to getting off easy. Oh, this person checks off? Sweet, nothing to do about him. Next!

    Fail.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Insect: the ways you might define yourself are infinite why persist in choosing pain? I mean, most everyone here adores it. Who tried to squash you? Why so much anger? Why are you so interested in vengeance?

    You're right of course you shouldn't care to protect your identity, particularly if there is no loving husband and you are not a Virgo ;) Personally I value anonymity. To each his own. Beyond that I had a day on the water, wine, and was curious about what might have made you blame a particular group for so much...harm. Oddly Men in Hats was on the radio at the time and it was that drunk off a boat wet behind the ears thing where I tried to find something random out of boredom.

    A technicality Sparkleplug, but I'm Assistant Professor Obvious and I did laugh when you said hunchback, because I am.

    ReplyDelete
  35. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Not feeling much today. Just to see the latest reactions posted here. What do I find? Yet more commentors seeking affirmations through the believe that their opinions, 'voiced' by their 'identities' have been the catalysts for other people's reactions in whatever form..connection, rejection, comparison, judgment.

    I don't even see how they hold any tangible meaning or benefits for the posters apart from boosting this blog's alexa ratings (the personal fetish of the author). His/her MO being to maintain an aura of exasperating cognitive dissonance as the 'neutral' psychological 'salt lick' that draws on and feeds the latent imbalances constantly needing to seek affirmation through whatever presence that have or can be projected here. The prison warden that uses and fosters mutual hate and distrust among the inmates for self regulation achieves the total dependency of all. What juicy lambs we all are :)

    ReplyDelete
  37. Keeping cry. Maybe you will drown yourself in your own tears. Then you wouldn't be in so much pain. Self-righteous whore. Keeping going though. You might challenge the wrong or right person. Who knows. Who cares. All your talk of ass kicking from someone who has probably never done anything of the sort means nothing. I'm sure you think some petty argument with a neighbor is a real ass kicking.

    No you don't brag about your deeds you just moan about your emotional angst. Then you condemn us. For what exactly? Because we cause pain? O well causing pain is a simple fact of life. Why should I feel bad about it? Every life is sustained through the death of another. Do you feel bad when you eat meat? I'm sure the animal doesn't want to die for you. Your very existence is pain for someone else. That is life. People die. Why should I care. It is natural it is what is suppose to happen. If some poor sap offs himself why should I feel bad? Their choice their decision. Lastly who are you to judge anyways. There are many neuro-typical who are doing horrid things. Is the fact that they feel bad about it but continue to do it better?

    ReplyDelete
  38. Now I feel something like asphyxiation.

    ReplyDelete
  39. ^Oh? How so, Fiddy?

    ReplyDelete
  40. Mother, do you think they'll drop the bomb?
    Mother, do you think they'll like this song?
    Mother, do you think they'll try to break my balls?
    Mother, should I build the wall?
    Mother, should I run for President?
    Mother, should I trust the government?
    Mother, will they put me in the firing line?
    Is it just a waste of time?

    Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry
    Momma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true
    Momma's gonna put all of her fears into you
    Momma's gonna keep you right here under her wing
    She won't let you fly, but she might let you sing
    Momma's will keep Baby cozy and warm
    Oooo Babe
    Oooo Babe
    Ooo Babe, of course Momma's gonna help build the wall

    Mother, do you think she's good enough
    For me?
    Mother, do you think she's dangerous
    To me?
    Mother will she tear your little boy apart?
    Mother, will she break my heart?

    Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry
    Momma's gonna check out all your girlfriends for you
    Momma won't let anyone dirty get through
    Momma's gonna wait up until you get in
    Momma will always find out where you've been
    Momma's gonna keep Baby healthy and clean
    Oooo Babe
    Oooo Babe
    Ooo Babe, you'll always be Baby to me

    Mother, did it need to be so high?

    ReplyDelete
  41. Poor Fiddy :(

    Forgotten already!

    The ego-comedown must be awful, dear.

    I do hope sticking it to the bitches with psychedelia is proving soothing.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Come down from what oh little shadow of anything I post?

    ReplyDelete
  43. Please stop stalking me, Oh Little Shadow.

    ReplyDelete
  44. I think you got his goat. Bye fiddy

    ReplyDelete
  45. Is that sarcasm? Thinking that I have the mean's to make something out from a pathetic incomprehensible string of words is a feat of great determination. Well, who knows, maybe I might get to like being a interactive educational toy for a retarded manchild.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Retarded ManchildMay 30, 2011 at 2:20 AM

    So there.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Interactive Educational ToyMay 30, 2011 at 2:23 AM

    Oh, Mr Manchild, won't you wind me up and play with me?

    Please? I promise I'll eduk8 you!

    ReplyDelete
  48. 'fiddy' >too much work, back to 50%. Any other suggestions?

    ReplyDelete
  49. Interactive Educational ToyMay 30, 2011 at 2:30 AM

    What about Drivel?

    It's a trademark *and* a new favourite word.

    ReplyDelete
  50. u r an idiot drivel!! why is my cinaman raison toste not cut in thick weges

    ReplyDelete
  51. Wow, a chain of self-interacting comments! A little entertained ... or is it Ego that I feel now?

    Anything shorter than 'drivel'? Btw you guy's still can't beat Ukan's 0% and he's a self professed dumb illiterate.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Self Professed Dumb IlliterateMay 30, 2011 at 2:59 AM

    fiddy iz godd

    ReplyDelete
  53. Interactive Sociopath ToyMay 30, 2011 at 3:14 AM

    What feeble, witless drivel by a useless bunch of prattling non-entities. You do know you're pointless, right? Just sayin'.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Interactive Sociopath ToyMay 30, 2011 at 3:16 AM

    *saying

    ReplyDelete
  55. Hahaha! I've never had such a reliable paraphrasing chain of responses b4. U are gold!

    ReplyDelete
  56. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Assistant Prof IGMay 30, 2011 at 8:29 AM

    Hi buggy.  

     What interested me was your vitriol-- all the pain, condemnation, anger.  

    I was curious about you because I define myself very differently. Anything more than a brief dalliance with a sociopath's tactics (and I do like to dally) would violate some basic ideas about what it means to be me.  

    Simply I do not set out to cause pain, but am wired in a somewhat complementary way.  I also recognize a sort of natural order.  Bring your pain, if someone feasts on it, well then, at least  someone has eaten.  

    I am rather impressed with the crew.  They are seeking to know themselves more fully, to understand their reactions and composition.  Such a thing is difficult without familiars and as you point out, they seldom have the privilege and benefit of that.  I find them beautiful creatures and if they gnaw at me, I simply walk away.  Offagssing here is not only safe but to my thinking necessary.  Your proposed witchhunt struck me as missed opportunity.

    This place has been helpful to knowing who and what I am.  I have the opportunity to gauge my responses under cover and in my own time;  I find that useful. 

    In my experience, whore is not a sixth grade insult, I have to wonder if that has anything to do with why you never had kids.

    ReplyDelete
  58. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  59. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Whoa, this place went to shit.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Vitriol is a strong emotion and condemnation a vivid response.   As I mentioned, I was curious who would levy  them against strangers.

    Your loss sounds extraordinary.  I had no idea why you might describe your perspective, a "40 something woman without children"* as "unique".  That in itself describes several hundred million of the world's inhabitants.   I have a much clearer idea why  you see these attributes as original and why you might choose to present yourself in a childlike way.

     I have to apologize, I really had no idea I could so toxic. (Guess that makes me an empath with Aspie tendencies.)I'd also like to thank you for being so instructive.  I am usually dmissive of people who pull the wings of bugs because they can.  Apparently I am one such person. 

    *Sorry if I got some of the details of your profile wrong.  I can't seem to click through to your blog anymore-- Hope you haven't dimmed it on my account.  My only suggestion was for the safety of your personal info.  Not really from these anons but you never know who your next employer is, or who is running local governement.

    Incidentally Kesu shared a hardship from his past you dismissed him as a liar and accused him of trying to garner pity. No one here has done that to you. You each wear your damage differently. Not sure it gives you the right to judge him.

    You're carrying around alot of  Pain. I hope you decide to talk to a friend, neighbor or get some help. Best of luck.

    ReplyDelete
  62. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Quantitative data is essential to advance a field, and to do this you need measuring tools. I don't have an issue with the existence of the PCL-R, but it's extremely problematic that this research tool is used to make criminal law decisions. It's not sufficiently advanced to base legal decisions on. I also take issue with the fact that Hare receives remuneration for the use of his test, the financial gain brings his objectivity as a scientist into question. Not to mention attempting to suppress other scientist's criticisms of the PCL-R.

    ReplyDelete
  64. First of all I think its pathological lying instead of psychological lying.

    I don't think its that problematic though. I think a smart psychopath can still manipulate this test. I would no what to answer. I did the test ones and scored a 36 out of 40. But thats only because i haven't been in prison or married. (than it would likely be 40). I know they say you can't self diagnose this test but with that score i can't be far off.

    But i agree with the opinion that if a person commits different crimes regularly the expectation is he will commit a crime again. So a criminal record could be helpful during parole hearings.

    ReplyDelete
  65. I’m not an expert on the psychopathic checklist, but it always seemed a bit subjective to me. Also, I can see how it could be manipulated by people who don’t really meet criteria for diagnosis, but want to be seen as being psychopathic. This is why I always liked the MMPI because it is almost next to impossible to manipulate. Most psychologists see the checklist as an outdated assessment. I also have to agree where she says"I don't mean to criticize him as a person, and I do believe that his work is remarkably insightful and accurate given that it still represents the very early stages of understanding psychopathy." These are my feelings as well.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dr. G,
      Agree about the appearance of subjectivity, another reason I dislike that it's used to make legal decisions. I don't have a copy of the PCL-R manual, but do have a copy of the PCL-SV manual and was shocked at how subjective the criteria are.

      Yes, it could be manipulated by those who want to believe they are psychopathic, but I think that's the case with any PD criteria. I think some of the issue is that people interpret things using the colloquial sense of the words, instead of what they mean in the context of the mental health field. Additionally, most people don't actually know somebody with a PD and so can't differentiate between that and normal jerky, irresponsible, and stupid behavior.

      I played around with, what I assume, was a genuine copy of the MMPI-2 until UofM sued to have it taken down. Answering it honestly, it did pick up on psychopathy but if I answered it dishonestly it didn't catch it. Not so with the Schizophrenia and Mania scales, I couldn't get a valid score without those scales being a bit high. I felt that the questions used for the Psychopathic Deviate scale were too easy if you know what society wants to hear. Perhaps it would spot secondary psychopaths.

      In your experience, how well do you feel the MMPI picks up on psychopathic traits? And what do you think of the new MMPI-2-RF?

      Delete
    2. Yea, they're sue happy. They went after someone I knew too over the mmpi.

      Well the newer version is shorter (thank god). I'm surprised it didn't catch it. I remember once emphasizing to someone to be honest because on the validity scores it will show, and he will have wasted his time, and it takes quite awhile to complete the assessment. He didn't listen, and it showed. He said he was dishonest twice.

      Scale 4 is usually elevated in sociopaths and in bpd, but it can also mean things like rebelliousness, unconventional, independent, etc without a full blown personality disorder.

      Delete
    3. Yeah, it did such a good job catching everything else I was surprised too. Although I suppose it would be difficult to formulate questions and scoring methodology that would catch non-criminal psychopaths, since it's not like they're lining up for psychometric testing. Most of the questions seemed like they were aimed at people with antisocial thoughts and behaviors who were not aware society doesn't like those things. Taking it with "mask on", those questions may as well have been surrounded with neon lights. It was like going through daily life, all the little things that I know I shouldn't say or do because I might get unmasked.

      Delete
    4. Read this: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/critique-of-forensic-psychopathy-scale-delayed-by-lawsuit/

      Delete
    5. Gonna have to agree with Dev here. I took the MMPI and lied my ass off passed as extremely well adjusted. The psychologist who administered was delighted with me. I often take the required online psych tests for my husband when he is applying for a job because he fails at them so bad and I can score them high in the "really good job candidate" area.

      I did have a hard time not dissolving into giggles at the number of different ways its asks you "do you like setting fire to shit?". I was able to determine that "fuck yeah bitches!" was not the answer that would get me what I wanted.

      Delete
    6. I am so sad I missed the sparklebug shitstorm......
      The self replying comments game... to whoever is responsible. So. Much. Love.

      Delete
    7. The MMPI asks a lot of strange questions like "I like collecting flowers and growing house plants...true/false". I guess I can see how some of the questions you feel you lied on, but for a lot of these questions how would you know whether being dishonest was going to work to your advantage or not? If I remember correctly, I recall researchers found a correlation between psychotic symptoms and a predilection for flowers which is the reason for the questions related to flowers on the MMPI.

      Delete
    8. Ah, so that's why it kept asking about flowers. The first time I assumed it must have been for the feminine-masculine identity score, but then it kept asking. Now I know if I meet someone obsessed with flowers they might have a mental disorder.

      If the questions for antisocial attitudes and behavior could be made more subtle then it might do a better job catching people. A lot of them were things like, "Sometimes the cleverness of criminals amuses me", "Sometimes when I'm angry I do the opposite of what someone tells me." Uh, yeah, I know agreeing with those statements is a bad idea. Or some of the ones used to measure anger, "Sometimes I get angry enough to break things." No, never, I'm not an angry person at all.

      Delete
    9. Bob,
      Yeah, what a mess with Hare and the whole litigation thing. I really don't know why he didn't let the paper get published, and then publish a rebuttal in the next issue of the journal. Now, the criticism of the PCL-R gets lots of publicity and he looks bad. Not very rational.

      Delete
    10. That would make sense... if it was an authentic scientific product instead of a commercial one. Also, pulling strings to get the APA to send in their fixers was definitely not wise either. The APA is already suspect with the DSM - an intervention on an already peer-reviewed article with their "peer review" goes against the process. Peer review is suppose to be a blind process.

      Delete
    11. @ Puppy BasketAugust 8, 2014 at 9:15 AM
      Sorry (i'm not) for being sharp, but u have a husband. You live together with Dr. Ginger. And you tried to find a nice socio girl for him. that makes no sense. lol. BOOYAH!

      Delete
    12. Isn't Dr. Ginger a girl? I thought I saw someone call her by she.

      Delete
    13. Idk it's weird tryin to guess people's gender online. Anyways, what doesn't make sense about it?

      Delete
    14. It actually does make sense the three of them live together. Dr. Ginger is not one of them (my mistake). PB wrote "in answer to your question Dr. Ginger my roommate". That's why i thought he was his roommate.
      Sorry just trolling. lol

      Delete
  66. Why do you care if the system is unfair, M.E.?

    I thought about this issue. It does seem to be unfair to identify psychopaths/sociopaths and then say, "you stay in jail" - because there's a chance that some of them might reform themselves, develop consciences and then live uniquely moral lives.

    E.g. Saul became Paul. Saul was a nasty psychopath. Paul was a saintly psychopath.

    If the parole board was deciding whether or not to let Saul out, they'd keep him in, and we'd never get Paul.

    You can make a utilitarian argument: the expected costs of paroling a psychopath outweigh the benefits. As a rational and utilitarian psychopath, I can't see an argument with that.

    Until we have technology that allows us to see into the brains of psychopaths, and say, "oh look, his brain has changed. The expected cost of paroling him is less than the expected cost of keeping him in prison - so let him go" I don't see a reason to allow parole.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think M.E.'s criticism was that she doesn't think the PCL-R itself is valid. So, if it can't recognize psychopaths, or it recognizes them but overestimates criminal recidivism then it's not a good tool for the criminal justice system to make decisions with.

      Delete
    2. Even if using the PCL-R leads to more people being locked up longer, it can still be a net win for society.

      This logic is the same as saying, "blacks commit crime at 9x the white rate and are less likely to reform, so lets lock up black criminals longer."

      As a numerically-inclined psychopath, I see the logic/truth in it and I'm OK with it. Most empaths wouldn't think it was OK. I'm also the sort to think, if the death penalty is too costly, we just need to reduce the cost. That's not how normal people think and feel about this stuff.

      In the end, we'll get brain scans of parole candidates, and those brain scans will reveal which criminals, psychopath or not, have reformed. And that information will be very predictive - so we'll use it.

      Until then, there's evidence that the PCL-R helps to identify particularly rotten apples. I can't fault people for thinking it makes sense to use it to make decisions until there are better tools.

      Check this out:

      "Relative risk statistics at one year indicated that psychopaths were approximately three times more likely to recidivate—or four times more likely to violently recidivate—than were non-psychopaths. The correlation between general recidivism and PCL-R Factor 2 (a measure of the social deviance facet of psychopathy) was stronger than the correlation between general recidivism and PCL-R Factor 1 (a measure of the interpersonal/affective facet of psychopathy). Both PCL-R factors contributed equally to the prediction of violent recidivism. The PCL-R routinely made a significant contribution towards predicting recidivism beyond that made by key demographic variables, criminal history, and personality disorder diagnoses. Across studies, PCL-R scores were as strongly associated with general recidivism, and were more strongly associated with violent recidivism, than were actuarial risk scales designed specifically to predict reoffending. Taken together, these findings indicate that the PCL-R should be considered a primary instrument for guiding clinical assessments of risk for criminal recidivism and dangerousness."

      Delete
    3. I would take that study with a grain of salt since one of the authors is Hare. As in all science, there's the risk that he's unconsciously biased toward wanting to see his brainchild perform well. More concerning than that, is the fact that he receives a royalty for use of the checklist giving him a monetary incentive for the test to be effective. The results of this study don't appear to have been repeatable looking at the following meta-analysis.

      http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2010-17510-003
      The efficacy of violence prediction: A meta-analytic comparison of nine risk assessment tools.
      Yang, Min; Wong, Stephen C. P.; Coid, Jeremy
      Psychological Bulletin, Vol 136(5), Sep 2010, 740-767. doi: 10.1037/a0020473

      "Actuarial risk assessment tools are used extensively to predict future violence, but previous studies comparing their predictive accuracies have produced inconsistent findings as a result of various methodological issues. We conducted meta-analyses of the effect sizes of 9 commonly used risk assessment tools and their subscales to compare their predictive efficacies for violence. The effect sizes were extracted from 28 original reports published between 1999 and 2008, which assessed the predictive accuracy of more than one tool. We used a within-subject design to improve statistical power and multilevel regression models to disentangle random effects of variation between studies and tools and to adjust for study features. All 9 tools and their subscales predicted violence at about the same moderate level of predictive efficacy with the exception of Psychopathy Checklist—Revised (PCL-R) Factor 1, which predicted violence only at chance level among men. Approximately 25% of the total variance was due to differences between tools, whereas approximately 85% of heterogeneity between studies was explained by methodological features (age, length of follow-up, different types of violent outcome, sex, and sex-related interactions). Sex-differentiated efficacy was found for a small number of the tools. If the intention is only to predict future violence, then the 9 tools are essentially interchangeable; the selection of which tool to use in practice should depend on what other functions the tool can perform rather than on its efficacy in predicting violence. The moderate level of predictive accuracy of these tools suggests that they should not be used solely for some criminal justice decision making that requires a very high level of accuracy such as preventive detention."

      Why bother going through the extra expense and rigamarole of the PCL-R when Factor 2's predictive capability is the same as other tools? Also, if you have someone who scores very high on Factor 1, but not very high on Factor 2 they could qualify as a psychopath even though they are unlikely to reoffend. Now we all have to pay to keep some glib leech with no life goals in jail even though he would've just gone back to being an annoying layabout.

      Delete
    4. from a utilitarian perspective, you just look at costs vs benefits.
      even if hare is a douche, you ignore the "emtional cost" of paying a douche,if it otherwise is worth it.
      but as you mention, there's evidence his test doesn't predict. if so, it isn't worth it.
      if the other tests work, just use them and we are all better off.
      at some point we will just use tests, perhaps even before people commit crimes, to know who is expected to cost more money when kept outside than kept inside. you could even pay people, preemptively, to go into a prison-like environment to stop them from committing crimes.

      similarly, you could pay cluster-b people to get sterilised, to reduce costs even more cheaply and less intrusively.

      Delete
    5. I don't care whether or not Hare is a douche. I only brought up the fact that he gets paid a royalty because any research he does on his own instrument is likely not objective due to his financial interest in the effectiveness of said instrument.

      Society might actually shoot itself in the foot if it sterilized all cluster-B sufferers given the genetic linkage between bipolar and cluster-B disorders. Bipolar predisposes sufferers to higher intelligence, so that is one of the reasons bipolar is overrepresented in art, science, and technology.

      Delete
    6. OK, I agree with you that we should assume Hare is impartial.

      Also, I agree there could be unintended consequences to a eugenics program.

      Even if sterilizing people might lead to problems, I think it is something we ought to look at, dispassionately. Crunch the numbers. Perhaps do some analysis - as in, "oh, these people lack the genes we'd get rid of. How do they perform on various metrics?"

      That is, analyze our population now and try to figure out how things would look if we changed our policies.

      Of course, if you are going to do the eugenics thing, just paying blacks to get sterilized is probably the low-hanging fruit. Yes, we'll lose our best jazz players and basketball players - almost all of them. But we'll also lose approximately half of our violent criminals and a big chunk of our low-IQ underclass.



      Delete
    7. If we hypothetically had enough understanding of how things work, then I would not be opposed to a eugenics policy. I think we need to be very careful though since the issues are so complex. There's a high risk of accidentally punching holes in the hull and sinking the ship. I'm skeptical that we'll ever manage to gain enough understanding to justify the risks.

      Regarding blacks, I doubt that they're inherently stupid and violent. If they were removed from the gene pool, I think other people would fill the vacuum. Easier access to contraception, better sex education, and ceasing government subsidization of people who can't afford kids but reproduce like rabbits would probably do more to remove violent, low intelligence people of all races from society with less risk and less expense than eugenics.

      Delete
    8. AnonymousAugust 9, 2014 at 9:59 PM
      Racist much? I am black and have a high IQ, I was adopted and raised in a area where I was given economic and social advantages. Race has no correlation to IQ or the propensity for violence. Low economic opportunity and the social forces that accompany it on the other hand do. The problem with Eugenics is always the same. Who is in charge of the program. Not even who is initially in charge but the people who worm their way to the top with their own agenda. The second problem and a very important one is that when humans run a program such as this they are going against natural selection. Who is to say that what we as humans think are "good" or "bad" genes are not the very thing that will mutate into something that will be beneficial to the species farther down the line or even if they do not mutate will be beneficial if Earth's circumstances change? What if there is an extinction event (well not what if, because they ALWAYS happen) and a certain facet of sociopathic or bipolar people have a genetic advantage that we have wiped out and the entire species dies as a result. For instance, you Anon, would like to wipe people with good melanin from the face of the earth. Considering our vanishing ozone and global warming we are in fact more genetically favored than you are to survive.

      The point is as humans we cannot know what genes we will need in the future for the species to survive and prosper. Look back at the stunningly "brilliant" record the human race has for "improving on nature". We fail in every instance and usually make things so much worse.

      While certain people are born predisposed to psychopathy it (usually) takes massive abuse (mental, physical, and or sexual) to push them into full realization. Would it not be a better idea if we reached the point where we could screen for this at birth to ensure that the child was not raised in an environment that led them to full blown psychopathy? We have already established that a socio who conforms to a moral code is not only not more dangerous than a "normal" person but can also be a asset to society. Consider alone how many doctors we would lose? How many captains of industry? Fixing the underlying societal problems that are the root of violence, overbreeding, and poor learning seems to me to be a much better solution than "weeding out the gene pool".

      This won't happen of course, the "haves" have very little incentive to uplift the "have nots" in any useful way. Better to feel morally and intellectually superior and enjoy the benefits of having a class system.

      Delete
    9. The numbers don't bear what you say out, Puppy Basket.

      The numbers demolish your argument. The facts are racist, not me. I just see things as they are. Your sense of self is tied up in being black, so you can't tell true from false.

      The Color of Crime: Race, Crime and Justice in America


      * “Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against other blacks.” Forty-five percent of the victims of violent crime by blacks are white folks, 43 percent are black, 10 percent are Hispanic.

      * Blacks are seven times as likely as people of other races to commit murder, eight times more likely to commit robbery and three times more likely to use a gun in a crime.

      * “Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit violent crime against a white person than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.” (If decent black folks have trouble hailing a cab, and they do, these numbers may help explain it.)


      Delete
    10. You might find that those statistics are worthless Anon. Check out other countries where blacks are not socially disadvantaged and you find different one. You will find out however that anywhere social disadvantage occurs the underclass are more likely to commit crimes. That is just the way it is and has always been.

      Also statistics can be used to say whatever you want them too.
      I notice you left out that white people commit 43% of the crimes as well as Black people committing 52%. Since native Americans commit 2.2% of the crime in the US. I chose to draw form this fact that white people commit to large a portion of the crimes and should be sterilized and exterminated (tongue firmly in cheek). While I do identify as black I am in fact Mulatto. I can say also that you are to invested in being white to see my side of the argument. Please do educate yourself on worldwide crime trends, historical criminality, and the social reasons underlying criminal behavior before pronouncing your bigoted BS as "truth"

      Delete
    11. Also consider the source of your skewed statistics.
      http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/groups/american-renaissance
      I tend to not give a whole lot of credence to pseudo science published by bigots.

      Delete
    12. More black people get jail time, more poor people get jail time. Why? Most people with good lawyers get reduced or no sentences. Not public defenders, real lawyers. Just a fact of life, The Government is at this moment review 1000's of cases of people arrested for the same basic crime, possession of cocaine, wherein black people were more likely to get longer sentences than whites based solely on the amount of money they were able to spend which determined which TYPE of cocaine they used. Crack vs. powder. Crack is cheap and therefore poor people do harder time with longer sentence than rich people who just get to go rehab FOR THE EXACT SAME CRIME. One example of injustice based on social perception and mores.

      I am light skinned as long as I stay out of the sun, I can speak with any accent and tend to mirror those around me, if I put my afro in a ponytail you really can't tell I am not white. If I walk down the streets of my home town in an affluent neighborhood, mine for instance, with only my white "upper-class" friends the police wave happily as they go by . If I do the same with my "hippie" or black friends we get subjected to "stop n frisk" by the same cops. Assume I am carrying something illegal, for the sake of argument, the chances of me being caught are highly influenced by the bias/perception of the cops alone. No other reason. Do you see where this might skew your statistics a bit? Say all my friends in this example are carrying dope. Which ones are going to be arrested? Being white you have never had to worry about being pulled over the crime of "perambulating with an overabundance of melanin". (Walking while black) Does this not give you an advantage when it come to not being incarcerated? It gives a sneaky white socio more incentive to break the law than black one though.

      Delete
    13. Those are FBI statistics. American Renaissance just uses them to show that blacks commit disproportionately more crime than non-blacks.

      For whatever reason, blacks do a horrendous amount of crime, and non-blacks would better off if there were fewer blacks, because there'd be less crime.

      Asians can say the same about non-Asians: with the exception of illegal gambling, Asians are more law-abiding than non-Asians. Asians would be better off if there were fewer non-Asians, as crime would drop.

      My statements are self-evidently true. The problem is that your sense of self is tied up in being black, so seeing reality is painful for you.

      I'm a male. Males commit at least 90% of the violent crime. I accept that reality. I don't try to shift blame to TV, women, etc. The reality of males being criminal doesn't cause me to suffer. I can see reality as it is.

      Similarly, it doesn't trouble me to admit that Asians are more law-abiding than other groups. I don't suffer.

      You can't see reality of black behavior without suffering. I have compassion for you.

      Delete
    14. Yep, what started as a discussion of the effectiveness of the PCL-R to predict criminal recidivism turned into this.

      Delete
    15. dev, like a lot of high functioning psychopaths, I'm goal-directed and creative, And not one to let history or feelings get in the way of solving problems.

      if the goal is to reduce the cost of psychopathy, let's quantify the costs, the mechanism, potential solutions and let's go for it, 100%.

      if you read about Burma, those guys are saying, what will future generations think if we don't solve our Rohingya problem now? their thinking makes sense to me - how can you identify a problem and not move to deal with it, using everything you've got?

      that's how we put men on the moon, developed our medicine, cars, etc.

      Delete
    16. I'm not saying that I disagree with solving the problem, I'm saying I disagree with your interpretation of the available data. Misinterpreting the data carries substantial risks that need to be accounted for in a cost-benefit analysis.

      Delete
    17. Psychopaths tend to be reckless and overconfident - I agree.

      That's why it is good to have guys like you around.

      E.g. a psychopathic CEO has a cautious right-hand man that makes sure he doesn't saw off the branch they are both sitting on.


      Delete
  67. If a person is going through a crisis period in their lives, can they
    TEMPRORARLY display sociopathic sympthms and revert back to normal
    behavior?
    I saw a film the other day called "Map Of The World?, starring Sigorney
    Weaver. A well liked farmer's wife was watching a neighbour's child.
    She gets distracted and the child downs. Her reaction to the tragety
    puzzles people. She seems numb and apthetic. Meanwhile, people
    recall other perculiar aspects of her behavior. She worked as a school
    nurse and one child testifies that she slapped him. Other's come forth
    with accusations, and the witch hunt is on.
    Her own "sociopathic" reaction doesn't do her any good. She reacts
    completely unaffected even while in prison.
    The trail is held, which everyone is certain will be open and shut. She
    testifies on her own behalf, and acquits herself quite well. The tissue of
    lies and false accusations comes unraveled. At the end of the film she
    is reunited with her family, and reverts to "normal."
    Could this happen in real life? Could a person be "sociopathic" for a
    LIMITED period to help them over trama? Or, sociopathy always a
    LIFELONG condition?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My experience so far is, everything is in us, everyone can be a psychopath, an addict, a borderliner, a murderer, can have no emathy, shallow, mean, it is all in us. I can switch my emotions off, if I need too. And I don't have a personality disorder. At least I think so. But to some degree we are all disordered and sometimes a mess. That is part of our nature, being imperfect.

      Before I met my "Psychopath" oder "sadistic pervert" I thought "he is bad" and "I am good". Haha. How wrong I was. That is why I don't like to label people. What is normal?

      In my german history "it was normal" to murder innocent people, even children .And after their death (I am still so sorry and beyond words!), they exploited their body, everything. So called "normal" people did this.
      And every culture I know did kill others. Look at the milgram experiment. It still can happen any time.

      To me this Hare Checklist isn't valid. I don't understand that splitting (don't know if it is translated correctly) and simply definitions. I think he has also a distorted perception. Psychopaths aren't aliens and from a different planet. We are all sharing humanity, with different perceptions to moral, ethic, opinion, cultural backgrounds.

      As long as you don't accept (love, be in peace with) yourself as who you are, it seems you have to project, suppress, judge, control, split, destroy, compare, win, manipulate and so on. This is my opinion.



      For me, all "psychopaths checklists" are invitations to be not responsible, kind of black and white-thinking, here good people, there not so good people, there bad people.

      After my "Psychopath" meeting I have learned, that I am responsible for my life and my boundaries.

      Delete
    2. ^ well stated.

      Delete
  68. I didn't want te respond in the first place but now ill do it anyway because of the last post.
    I think you misunderstood my post doctor. The idea when manipulating the PCL-R is to NOT be diagnosed as a psychopath. Why would you want to get a positive result on the PCL-R while on trial? You will just stay in prison longer.
    Furthermore I recall Hare talking about a psychopath that had the MMPI, the manual, scoring manual and the scoring templates in his cell. And providing a service for prisoners the help them get to a diagnosis. (and then a second "better" one just before they got released). Also said Hare that prisoners usually don't have much trouble with manipulating this test with the manuals.

    @ AnonymousAugust 8, 2014 at 3:12 AM

    Its possible that post traumatic stress disorder might block memory or might make a person emotionally cold.

    Als it could be there is a underlying disease that causes pseudo psychopathic syndromes (temporarily making them a psychopath. This could happen with diseases like tertiary syphilis, wilsons disease or hashimotos disease.

    But in the most cases psychopathy is a lifelong disorder

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. John,

      I wasn't responding to you, I was just posting a comment in general to the original blog post. I'm not sure how often it occurs when someone is on trial, but there are clients who try to receive this type of diagnosis. If you notice, the media tends to venerate and glorify many of these traits. Serial killers get their own hbo documentaries. There are plenty of shows that feature antiheroes that have sociopathic traits and so forth and so on so yes people who aren't psychopaths will sometimes try to manipulate the outcomes of these assessments.

      Delete
    2. Thats weird. That must been messed up persons. Trading some media attention for extra jail time.

      Delete
    3. John,

      As I stated in my comment, I don't know how it often it occurs when someone is on trial, or in a prison setting. I was talking more about a clinical setting where someone might come in for a diagnosis, and make themselves sound more psychopathic than they really are. It may sound strange, but it really does occur, and I think part of it is because of how it is portrayed in media.

      Delete
    4. This goes in line with JUICE's comment on August 8, 2014 at 10:01 PM, where he was asking for help. S/he knows s/he is a sociopath, but society and his/her friends are telling him/her s/he is the most normal of all and that they aspire to be like him (JUICE, probably not the smartest friends you have). We are currently glorifying some of the sociopathic traits in the media, particularly callousness. Probably because we wish we could avoid the hurt that comes with being able to feel emotional pain, guilt, and other unpleasant feelings. Not sure this is sustainable long term. Thoughts?

      Delete
    5. I suspect that people like the sociopathic traits because some of them can lead to fame, fortune, and power which nearly everyone would like more of even if they won't admit it. It's an escape for them to imagine what their life could be like. Also, those traits make for intriguing and memorable characters that encourage viewers to come back for another episode. Some of it is probably due to society's ideal of masculinity; a lot of socio characteristics are masculinity on overdrive. As for female socio characters, that might play into the masculinity issue as well. People find a mix of feminine and masculine personality characteristics in an attractive female body appealing. Men think its sexy, and women like that the character is sticking it to female stereotypes. The female socio is the idealization of the modern woman, the antithesis of June Cleaver.

      Delete
  69. Here are some strange and fun facts:

    1. There is a book on how to pass the checklist as "normal."
    2. I wanted to take the test to see how I measure up. The mental health professionals I spoke to never heard of Haar. I guess he's a big fish in a small pond (consisting of those scholars who venerate him).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Really, thats so straang. You must be trolling

      Delete
    2. Actually, there is a book on passing the PCL-R. You can buy it on Amazon.

      Delete
    3. So there is. I gotta get me this. Of course if you order it on Amazon they have all your info..... IT"S A TRAP!
      http://www.amazon.com/Pass-The-PCL-R-Psychopathy-Checklist-Revised/dp/146626618X

      Delete
    4. lol, paranoid?

      Delete
    5. @AnonymousAugust 9, 2014 at 1:05 PM
      But of course!
      Though caution online is not a bad course to follow especially if you share a computer. I use Chrome as my browser and google has a bad habit of tracking my activity and offering me ads targeted to my interests. Usually not a bad thing but in this case could be a problem. For instance the other day a friend of mine wanted me to "check out" a possible hook up for me a gay men's dating/hookup site he trolls. Next thing I know my google ads are full of neekid mens. Amazon does indeed track my purchases so they can offer me other things in my area of interests. We KNOW from Snowden and other sources that government agencies flag such things. Though Snowden did not say specifically that Amazon purchases were flagged it does stand to reason it would behoove the watchdogs to flag certain reading material. Just saying. For instance that dude who left his kid in the car would never have been arrested if the police had not found an incriminating browsing history on his computer. Their entire case is centered on it. Without his browser history they would have nothing. Something to think about.

      Delete
    6. It's those naughty gubburments.

      Delete
    7. John, if I'm "trolling," would you tell me how I'm doing it? I never did quite understand what the word means. Dev, I just mentioned the book in my post. Puppy Basket, I just assume the government is watching everything I say and do online. I just say, "fuck it." Things that are really secret are locked securely in my head. Anyway, I think if would be difficult for the prison system to combine what it knows about you with everything online. Software isn't as "smart" as we think it is.

      Delete
    8. Puppy Basket,
      If you don't want embarrassing ads, try using a different browser like Firefox. If you really don't want to be tracked then use Tor browser. Caveat with Tor, supposedly if you spend too much time on it the feds will flag you as a possible person of interest. Honestly though, if you use it properly they would have a very hard time figuring out who you are.

      Purchase tracking is an inevitable part of life unless you pay cash in a place with no cameras. I doubt material on psychopathy is flagged, a lot of people have an interest in the subject because it's titillating. Unless you are, or appear to be, a terrorist I wouldn't worry too much about the feds. Now, if you're prone to breaking the law and the cops ever got access to that information that might be less than good.

      Delete
    9. Free-Behind-My-Mask,
      I'm aware you stated above that the book exists. I said it actually does exist and stated where one could purchase it since John seemed insistent that your post wasn't factual. That's probably why he said you were trolling, even though that really doesn't fit the definition of trolling. If you were trolling the post would've been off-topic or intended to cause an inflammatory response.

      Delete
    10. Do you guys think law enforcement hangs out on this page? Also, how do you prevent hackers? I've been hacked several times now, but it just kinda goes with the territory with the types of populations I deal with.

      Delete
    11. cont.

      7. Make sure your wireless connection is secure. Use WPA/WPA2 security, not WEP. WEP has a lot of security holes. Make sure the connection and administrative access is password protected. If the router's firmware is out of date usually you should update it. Occasionally new versions of firmware will be less secure, so you should research the different versions first. If your router is Universal Plug and Play (UPnP) capable, turn that off. MAC filtering can remove low hanging fruit, but it's easy to spoof MAC addresses. The decision to use MAC filtering really depends on the individual situation. If you must use a hotspot, use a VPN. I like OpenVPN.

      8. Close open ports. The procedure will depend on your operating system.

      9. If you don't need to connect to ipv4 devices turn that capability off. In Windows I've always used the command line to do this, I don't think there's a way to do it through the GUI (but don't quote me on that).

      10. If you have very sensitive information encrypting it is a good idea. You can encrypt the entire drive, but that's probably overkill and carries some risks. There are programs that let you create encrypted volumes; an example is TrueCrypt.

      11. Use an electronic file shredder for sensitive items. If your device is ever stolen, the data won't be recoverable.

      12. If you have a smartphone, be mindful of what information is on it and how that data is secured. Using a program that lets you remotely wipe the data in the event your phone is lost or stolen is a good idea. There are programs for laptops too. Some will even give location data for your device.

      This will stop most targeted and untargeted attacks because there's not that many real hackers, most "hackers" are script kiddies with limited knowledge of how the systems they're attacking actually work. These days you can download a few programs, and start "hacking". It's no more difficult than learning to use the Microsoft Office suite. If you have the misfortune of tangling with a real hacker, you'll probably need professional help. If you're office network is getting hacked, I would hire a security professional to fix it.

      Delete
    12. Dr. G,
      Apparently the board ate my comment, let's try again.
      I seriously doubt that law enforcement watches this site. If you got arrested and law enforcement got access to your electronics, and they figured out your handle, and you said something incriminating, then you'd have a problem. Not a very likely scenario. More than likely, information on this site is in a federal database somewhere because the feds collect almost everything. Unless you're a terrorist I wouldn't worry about it.

      Depends what's getting hacked, and what devices you have, and what operating system(s) and version(s) you have, and on and on. But there are some general steps you can take to make it more difficult for hackers.

      1. Beware of social engineering. Frequently successful attacks employ a bit of this.

      2. Keep all your programs up to date. Unpatched applications, especially browsers, leave holes for hackers and viruses to get through.

      3. Use antivirus software and keep it updated. This is really important if you use Windows.

      4. If your OS is so old it's no longer secure, replace it.

      continued...

      Delete
    13. 5. Use strong passwords, and don't use the same one for multiple accounts or reuse old passwords. The minimum length I would use (application allowing) is 12 characters. Use random alpha-numeric and special characters. If you're still using old style passphrases like "horsebATtery20cLocK>", stop doing it because people have written programs to crack these. The longer your password the more secure it is.

      6. Use a password manager. Writing your passwords on a post-it note hidden under the keyboard isn't secure. If you have physical copies of passwords, keep them locked up. KeePass is a good program, but not very user friendly if you aren't tech savvy. LastPass is also good, but easier to use.

      continued...

      Delete
    14. wow, you know a lot about this stuff.

      Delete
    15. hhmm yea bout that whole terrorist thing...well I am irish :P :P ahh I always hope the fbi can take a joke.

      Delete
    16. I work in the tech field, so it would be kind of a bad thing if I didn't know this stuff.

      Delete
    17. I will add a couple of things to Dev’s list. (Dev, you made me paranoid). Deep breath in, and… breath out. OK, all good.

      13. If you don’t want anybody to know where you are browsing/posting from (for instance, depending on what tools ME is using, she might have a map of where the hits are coming from and how many of them), or if you want to access web pages, services, programs from other countries that you cannot get in your own – as an example, BBC programming if you are in the States, or US netflix selection if your are outside of the States – then use a program like “HideMyIP”. You can change your IP Address to make the outside world think you are in a different country. A Fed investigation can get past that, I believe. Dev might know.

      14. Regularly clean up your history and cookies.

      15. Some browsers have an incognito mode. This means that you can browse and none of the history or cookies will be left behind after you close your browser window. (easier than cleaning up after you browse.)


      Sigh… I follow hardly any of the advice Dev outlined. Too lazy. Or as I’d like to see it, too busy.. My stance is that I have nothing to hide, so why should I bother. Yep, as I said, lazy…

      Delete
  70. Shouldn´t americas favourite zodiac sign then, cancer, be denied parole if suddenly doing "naughty stuff"? (America is supposed to be a "crab" country according to the zodiac teachings: love of family, cooking & old fashioned stuff combined with a passion for running small business enterprises). Why? Because cancer also happens to be the most criminal of all zodiac signs, real jailbirds so to speak..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm a Cancer.
      Tell me more please.

      Delete
    2. Well, these folks (often) love crime! I guess "passionate crime" is high on that list, since crabs not seldom are the opposite to men without conscience, filled with emotions. Super-empaths?

      Delete
  71. "-Only I decide who´s socio or not!" perhaps will be a deja vu quote by politicians in coming western police-states, where the moral majority has begun to request "cleansings" instead of tired old halloween..?

    ReplyDelete
  72. While reaching for a late night snack
    I ponder the situation of the psychopath
    he can be good and not naughty at all
    and just walk around friendly at the mall

    He may sell perfumes for a living
    he´ll peddle those bottles with care
    his heart may be generous, giving
    he´ll spend time trimming his hair..

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ...........what...?..........

      Delete
    2. Yes.... and?.....

      Delete
    3. His "soul" may be a ball of fire
      his mind may be like a blade
      he´s elusive and filled with desire
      the odours he sells never fade

      We cannot say he´s only human
      he may spit at age and time
      without conscience, a true man
      has risen high above earths slime..

      Delete
    4. I like that one better XD makes more sense and I can sorta see it playing in my head in a way that makes sense.

      Delete
    5. Know what's right and when it's wrong,
      March to the beat of your own song
      And when they ask to understand what,
      Was not more than a choice, if even that.

      To fill in the gaps and float above,
      Is the fools thought and loss of love,
      And were it other, would it not be chosen
      As this is what was, and is unfrozen.

      Delete
  73. If you are TRUE sociopath an incarcerated socio should know how to trick the test. Everyone knows that you can answer questions in a certain way to throw off a test. Even as a empath I know that. I mean, are not sociopaths so much smarter, more manipulating and better at it all than the rest of emotional empaths and the rest of those who are your subjects?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The checklist questions are usually quite obtuse. The problem more lies in third-party observations of sociopathic traits through actions and behavior.

      Delete
    2. Part of the problem is also the fact that not all socio's are high intelligence. Sorry it is true. The ones in jail are not the cream of the crop so to speak. Ask any cop. One of my favorite quote on the show Cops, and I have heard it from several officers, is; "We don't catch the smart ones". I have broken the law 50 times for each one time my friends and acquaintances have. Yet I have never seen the inside of a cell and they all have. I have been stopped by police after we wrecked the unmarked cop car we stole and drove it around town stoned out of our minds at 120 miles per hour light and siren flashing with no one in the car having a valid driver's licence and were allowed to drive the car with no consequences for myself. though my co-conspirators did suffer a bit.I won't go into details, even though I am pretty sure the statute of limitations has run out, since I am not a moron but my point stands. That was just one of the many times that I have actually been stopped in the commission of a crime and talked the cops out of taking me down or even taking my name while the rest of the group I was with was arrested. Not to mention that most times I was never caught at all. People who have already been arrested multiple times for crimes are not by nature going to be the highest functioning sociopath in the litter. Just saying. Therein lies the problem. These test are administered by people, people are subjective no matter how highly they are trained. They have subconscious biases. The smarter socio can beat the test anyway. Therefore we need a better way to decide if someone is going to re-offend or not. I think people who try to make something of themselves in prison should be judged by this criteria. Maybe create a new test to see if people have developed skills that would help them not re-offend. Now that would be useful.

      Delete
    3. Stealing and trashing an unmarked police car sounds pretty moronic to me. Where you a teenager then? Are you now able to curb such foolhardy impulses?

      Delete
  74. Speaking of tests, and completely off topic... Dr. Hare is standing in front of a painting. Anybody know what painting it is? Think Provence.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think it is a van Gogh @oldandwise

      Delete
    2. It is Van Gogh's "Starry Night". O&W

      Delete
  75. MachiavellianEmpath, I might have volunteered you to speak to this person who came on SW Aug5@834pm... She got quite agitated about one of my posts under the "Accusations" heading M.E. posted. :-~
    In my later post of Aug9@418am, I suggested she read some of your posts and watch for you when you came back on. I hope this will not inconvenience you. I realize you have been very busy with your kids. Hugs.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Has anyone read the book "The H Factor?" It's suppost to be the
    newest the in personality research. I analized my Queen, Casey
    Anthony according to the instructions. It was in the ball park, but
    nothing spectactular.
    I"m beginning to think my Queen's problem was TEMPARARY
    sociopathy brought about by the stresses of her unique situation, rather
    then a long standing sociopathic condition. I'm sure many concentration
    camp victims BECAME sociopaths in the camps, then reverted back to
    their "normal selves" afterwards.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well I thought your queen was ME. Trader. Im Joking. Lol. ;)

      but your on to something....
      Temperary sociopath, I strongly believe in it. We all have the capability. I believe I go from those two extremes. But tell that to a psychiatrist...they'd laugh at you because I present strong emotion, but i do present apathy, not as severe as my husband though, his is a survival mechanism, mine too I believe. But I always challenge my apathy. Short term apathy is valid in situations and normal, long term apathy presents problems. We all do it. Some stay their longer. When my husband presents his apathy, he starts spewing out words like, " god dam honey, just give up on humanity already, I'd rather be alone than with all those assholes -- we just don't need people, this is our haven. " it's funny because it's like he switched all his emotion off, but contrary to popular belief, he's really hurt inside when I dig through his mind. Took years for him to start liking his dad again. When he starts projecting, I see his thoughts. He can't fool me. Just like he challenges me, I challenge him on his apathy. And in many situations I just validate him. ..
      .and then he softens up like mush later on.
      Must look into that book you mentioned.

      Delete
    2. Actually most psychologists are starting to call borderlines a little sociopathic so I think they're starting to get it.

      Delete
    3. :) we need more doctors like you Dr. G

      I always believed the ones who can feel our suffering and have experienced it themselves - make some of the best docs around.

      Delete
    4. Thanks :) but the reality is most psychologists suffer from some kind of disorder. It's often why they are drawn to the field.

      Delete
    5. True dat, my dbt facilitators and concellor say the same thing. That's why you hear less of borderline clients being let go now. Where all the same on some capacity. We just had this discussion the other day in program. Ha.

      Delete
  77. Yawn. Any average socio can chose "to be/not to be" whatever he feels like doing such tests. A part of the "package" is to very well know how to react/respond "correctly" when dealing with empaths.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. based on what all these posters here seem to suggest that they are all so much smarter than the rest. As usual, situations only apply whenever it fits them best.

      Delete
  78. I have been in and out tell I was 24. My last sentence was 8 years. (16-24) I'm 29 I'm a sale's representative and my lack if impulse control has yet landed me in a prison. With that being sad I score a 34 on that stupid test.Which yyou can take anonymously. If I couldn't I'd lie. I haven't robbed or assaulted anyone. I chose people to hangout with that do that stuff and try to keep a normal life.
    What is that test anyways??? Who cares if your not a empathic person. Some people are just more stotic than others. Even sociopaths know what's bad and good. I learned that good things pay off even if I do them because I know my good deed for others is a good deed for me:-)

    ReplyDelete
  79. Like some previous commentators, I'm not sold on labelling people with personality disorders or psychopathy, but I do think it makes sense to identify traits as being psychopathic or narcissistic -- for instance. Then people are just collections of various traits to various degrees and if they happen to fall squarely into one category for each trait then they would be easy to classify but I doubt the world works that way.

    I've been trying to figure out what are the fundamental trait differences between psychopaths and narcissists. I've, in the last days, seen alot of references to this here (what a unique place!), and if I put this into my brain with my biases I get out the following result at the moment. I wanna know what people who live in those mental worlds think -- not what Hare says, but what the actual experience is.

    So here is a guess about the main differences, boiled down to oversimplicity.

    1. Psychopaths want to control. Narcissist want adulation.
    2. Psychopaths are more self-aware. They know their mental world is different from most others. Narcissist think that they are the same -- only better versions of the rest of humanity.
    3. Psychopaths have no conscience -- no feelings of guilt, remorse or shame. Narcissist have a rudimentary conscience. They are less likely to lie pathologically or do other things that can only be done successfully (fool other people) without feelings like shame.
    4. Psychopaths know they wear a mask to suit their purposes. Narcissists are just themselves -- no mask. So psychopaths can be more detached, more dispassionate and more brutal.

    5. Narcissists want as their purpose in life to be glorified by others. What do psychopaths want?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hugely over simplified is correct, to the point of being useless.

      Delete
    2. I don't think it's useless. There are good points in there. Incomplete, perhaps. I see narcissists as being more capable of a different sort of brutality that comes from defending a false self.

      Delete
    3. Psychopaths commonly seek stimulation. Things that are novel and/or interesting. It's almost like a hunger sometimes.

      Also, narcissists don't traditionally see or defend a false self. They feel that self is genuine and true, and that it needs to be supported.

      Delete
    4. The point that narcissists can be brutal to protect their identity is an excellent one.

      Delete
    5. It's so funny, us humans seem to justify anything, I mean it always amazes me how we talk ourselves into believing are way is the way that's right. When in truth, there's many ways we can do something, look at something and apply it to a particular situation that works. I think the best thing we can do for ourselves and for others around us is to have some sort of moral ethical code, (specially when we have a tendency to push boundaries or by pass the laws around us.) No matter what cluster b disorder one might have. When I hear of an empath or non empath justifying immoral behaviour, I ponder and think, yup , God, I need thee. O how I need thee. But I'll justify the reasons I don't. ha! Yes. MISS ME, I was drawn to you because of your faith and being diagnosed as a Socio. :) But I think many non faith people have outstanding moral codes too. So religion is not for everyone. Rules and boundaries protect us, and help stop sabotaging ourselves in the long scheme of things. Because cluster b personalities love stimulation and pushing those boundaries. Than comes the consequences. Eeeek. Good or not so good.

      Delete
  80. what would be something not useless, or do you think the whole point of making a distinction between narcissism and psychopathy is 'useless'?

    ReplyDelete
  81. Do some more reading on narcissism and it's variants as well as PPD and sociopathy. Generalizations are rarely helpful.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Let me add to my last point that it could be the case that labelling not only people but also traits as 'narcissistic' or 'psychopathic' is not, indeed, all that useful. I'm not sure, which is why I am writing about this question to begin with. I have seen many remarks resembling one that Bob made a few times that all psychopaths are inherently narcissists (but presumably not that all narcissists are inherently psychopaths?), which only adds to my confusion.

    If one can't boil down at least a few salient points to distinguish a narcisstic trait from a psychopathic one, then what's the point in using terms that lack reasonable clarity? I offered some suggestions and am looking for that kind of result.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ME put it more succinctly, in that the narcissistic trait inherent in psychopathy is more about an above-average level of self-confidence (in a matter-of-fact kind of way) and a greater concern for self than for others. However, it's not about self-adulation or an obsession about yourself, but rather a lack of vanity or true selflessness.

      To use the phrase, in the end the only person you can reliably depend on for your well-being is yourself - survival and living is ultimately about your choices and is ultimately your responsibility, not someone elses. If you get into trouble, it's up to you to get out of it, even if that involves pulling yourself out by grabbing someone's hand.

      Does this clarify things?

      Delete
  83. http://www.sociopathworld.com/2013/09/psychopaths-feel-emotions.html
    http://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2003/psychopaths.htm
    http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/psychotic-affective-disorders/hidden-suffering-psychopath-0
    https://www.psychopathfree.com/content.php?237-What-Emotions-Do-Sociopaths-Feel
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/books-and-media/surprise-psychopaths-have-a-talent-for-recognizing-emotions/article4704549/
    http://psych.wisc.edu/newman/SecurePDF/Baskin-SommersNewman2013.pdf

    http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/01/06/scan.nsp051.full

    ReplyDelete
  84. Everybody behaves from PERCIEVED self interest. The key to
    curing an antisocial person is to show them that OTHER interest IS,
    their interest.
    What was that play, "Enemy Of The People?" I've seen both liberals AND
    conservatives use it as an example in defense of their "truths."
    When people see that SIMPLICITY is the answer they won't try to gain
    advantage over others.
    It's ALL ONE INDIVISIBLE WORLD, though I would advise fleeing from an
    ISIS terrorist advance as quickly as possible.

    ReplyDelete
  85. When say psychopaths say they feel like aliens, what exactly do they mean? Does that mean they do not belong anywhere in all existence? Can this sense of alienness be put in words for a normal to comprehend?
    I have seen some intelligent psychopaths here and in real life. But do psychopaths really feel their psychopathy as their real nature or does any of them recognize psychopathy as just a point of view ? Does psychopathy cause misery in the being of the psychopath?
    I will be grateful to any answers.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It means when Robin Williams dies and you see people getting maudlin, you think, "are you kidding me? you didn't know him. he was a self-absorbed jerk anyway."

      And then you study them, like the way a scientist would study bugs. Or the way an alien would study humans.

      Delete
    2. Socios almost never self-destruct. Why? Is this because they cannot have depressions, because they are not pestered by emotions? But when their youth, sexdrive and money run out? What then..?

      Delete
    3. disagree. They self destruct but in the shadows. They die anonymously, estranged from former (loved?) ones.

      Delete
    4. Maybe. I am a self diagnosed socio (it is an intuitive gut feeling and I trust it) and I think some self-destruct and some don't. I self distruct sometimes, but not often. And I've got a pretty positive spin on life I no longer use drugs and I hate alcohol. I like weed. When I self destruct, well I'm still here to witness all of it.. my life is a direct reflection of my beliefs and you can't really hide from that.

      Delete
    5. I have posted at the top at 2:43. I guess there is an unwritten code of unwillingness to talk about the misery psychopathy causes in the being of the person affected by the psychopathic point of view. In all the cases I have personally known, psychopathy did cause misery in those beings. But I couldn't ask them for a description, since they do not know i know about psychopathy as a subject. Only one of them knows and tells me that it causes tremendous suffering inside him. I would greatly appreciate any input on this effect of psychopathy..

      Delete
    6. Not a chance. Not the sociopathic form of psychopathy anyway. In what way does this person feel like he is suffering?

      Delete
    7. Sometimes he would say he hates himself and that it's eating him. He told me I wouldn't understand it. Movies and music are made in an alien language from his point of view. He was trying to take a course in reading facial expressions. He said that he it's hard to act like someone else constantly.and that it's very tiring. i do not have any replies to him but only listen.The others also have expressed deep despair in a quick and passing way at various times of our acquaintance. It's like they are aware of some unseen impediment. All the people here are just brilliant. But these self revelations puzzle me. That's what make me wonder what is the effect of psychopathy on the psychopath him/herself.? Effects not as in a psychopath lies, manipulates etc,. These I see as just the symptoms of subscribing to a psychopathic point of view. The effects must be there on the psychopath, which we hear very little of.

      Delete
    8. I don't know, that's not really enough information, and I don't know the person so I'm not sure what the situation is of course, but a lot of people would like to be able to read body language and facial expressions to be able to know what people are thinking. In what way does he say he hates himself, and why?

      Delete
    9. My guess was, he was doing stuff which he would rather not. But he had no strength to resist those dark impulses and the psychopathic viewpoint which was causing the disconnect with even those he wanted to relate to but somehow unable to form bonds, which I noted he was trying to.

      Delete
  86. RIP RW. Didn´t his work display the things most empaths revere: really good human emotions? Didn´t many movies radiate a form of "genuine belief in mankind"? Them were not movies about estranged, beady eyed characters with a "nihil est" attitude?

    ReplyDelete
  87. I'm an empath but also think of myself. Empaths like themselves too & also put our needs most of the time above others. I just do not try and destroy someone in that process. I do me. I do not over value myself. I don't get that the narcissism... Its kind of sad for socio to have an unrealistic view of themselves.. not realist at all.

    Does that clarify things?

    ReplyDelete
  88. I'm curious to know what you, socios, think about New World Order and his actors. I will be gratefull to any answers.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Well, there is a concerted effort at cultural brainwashing.
    People are TOLD what to believe and are exploited.
    EVERYBODY GETS LIED TO. The only question is the MOTIVE.
    The Devil's motive in the Garden of Eden was to begile the
    "child-like" Adam & Eve, who didn't know any better.
    Most lies today are political and monetary like a slick politician, a devil
    in human form like Bill Clinton.
    The important thing to know is that the Devil DOES NOT appear like a
    repulsive beast with two horns on his head. The Devil would look like
    John Edwards.
    Also realize that the lion's share of evil is done under the guise of good.
    It LOOKS good at the beginning. The objective SEEMS nobel, but the end
    result is YOUR exploitation. YOUR slavery. That's what political liberalism
    is all about.
    Also, look at the efforts to con women in particular. Women are conned
    into beds and voting booths. Women's emotional nature is "played."
    Also, humanity as a whole is "female," so that's how the scum we have
    in office.

    ReplyDelete
  90. A psychopath has to do with genes, a sociopath has to do with environment. Big difference.

    ReplyDelete
  91. agreed. cannot know what you are till you know difference and it is rewarded without knowledge of the roots.

    ReplyDelete
  92. "EVERYBODY GETS LIED TO. The only question is the MOTIVE."

    this is pure bs along with some other oversimplifications. Some but not many people will invent fantastic, fabricated personal histories to seduce people into a relationship with them, or for some other reason. Most will not. Sure everyone lies to some degree.

    How can one have a relationship with a person who is totally fake? I don't get that.

    ReplyDelete
  93. ""The important thing to know is that the Devil DOES NOT appear like a
    repulsive beast with two horns on his head.""

    He appears like an angel of light..........

    I so get this metaphor. Sometimes me and my partner have these discussions. He's always telling me that the moment and situation your in is the perfect one to be in. Its not over there, or to chase something else that's better. It's today. A simplify life is contentment, just what IS right NOW. When I dissociate, I quickly lay him down and listen to his heart beat at night. I'm fighting inside to see how green my grass really is. How my lawn is the lawn that's beautiful and that I need to stay in that moment and soak it in. It just keeps me grounded I believe. :)

    A Christian would say......Stop chasing idols and broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @Newbie

      .........."" people will invent fantastic, fabricated personal histories to seduce people into a relationship with them, or for some other reason. Most will not. Sure everyone lies to some degree.

      How can one have a relationship with a person who is totally fake? I don't get that.""

      LOL, I think your on to something. People like to believe their own bullshit at times and fabricate lies, maybe to tolerate the distress of their own reality.. :p

      Delete
  94. @Superchick

    That makes sense to me. I've wondered what "to believe" could mean to a person who fabricates an entire personal history, lies compulsively in other ways, and claims to feel "intimacy" in a "relationship". This is not a moral question exactly but more to what such terms, like those in quotes here could mean. What kind of reality is that?

    The whole thing seems impenetrable -- my empathy to the extent it exists fails.

    "But I always challenge my apathy."

    How do you do that?

    ReplyDelete

Comments on posts over 14 days are SPAM filtered and may not show up right away or at all.

Join Amazon Prime - Watch Over 40,000 Movies

.

Comments are unmoderated. Blog owner is not responsible for third party content. By leaving comments on the blog, commenters give license to the blog owner to reprint attributed comments in any form.