This is an odd review of the book The Psychopath Test, which apparently has less to do with psychopathy than you might think by the title and more to do with the mystic nature of psychological diagnoses. The reviewer seems convinced in part of the book's main thesis, but comes to an odd conclusion that since diagnoses are so unreliably vague, we should really leave them up to the professionals:
In the end there is little black and white beyond the ink and pages themselves, but this is not Ronson’s fault. Diagnosis, whether of childhood bi-polar, psychopathy or the myriad conditions between, is a work-in-progress, an imperfect science in the hands of educated intellectuals. This is an important consideration for readers of The Psychopath Test who might be tempted, as Ronson was, to self-diagnose (he did so quite poorly; expect the same of yourself). The madness industry deserves to be approached with skepticism and a critical eye. But Ronson knows first-hand the perils of a layman playing doctor; diagnosis isn’t an exact science, but it is a complex one. Knowledge is power, but in this case it may be a loaded gun aimed directly at your foot. So for God’s sake, leave the labels to the professionals.
I have nothing against the cult of experts that exists in our society because I am largely a beneficiary of it. I get my hair cut by an expert, I get my sushi selected by an expert, I have my surgical procedures performed by an expert. I myself belong to a profession in which I am considered an expert and it is hilarious to hear other uninitiated people try to use the jargon, but I realize that at its core, the jargon is just that -- a lexicon that we made up to exclude outsiders. I realize that there is nothing inherently complicated or specialized about my body of professional knowledge that would keep any layperson from picking it up on their own, in fact it happens all the time. So what is the big deal about experts? To quote from that ever wise Wikipedia from a
slightly different context:
[F]ortunes are nowadays earnt from insights by "experts" into the relationship between "knowns" and "unknowns", and in which all kinds of primitive fears, anxieties and superstitions about what "might happen" are manipulated and capitalized on - not infrequently in a fraudulent way. The authoritativeness of these experts, it is argued, often begins to rely on a quasi-religious belief by people in the experts' powers of analysis and forecasting, and in the power of their knowledge, something which is sustained with sophisticated techniques for persuading and seducing the public. The valuation of knowledge gets a somewhat "mystical aura".
If psychological diagnoses are by their nature moving targets, that doesn't mean we should necessarily trust the experts even more. If the more uncertain the subject matter, the more we trusted experts, we would be putting our full faith into psychics, diviners, and preachers. Some of us may choose to do so, but others legitimately choose to not.
Finally, an interesting post.
ReplyDelete*snigger*
ReplyDeleteYou guys trusted "experts" until now? Don't bullshit me I know some of you do, all the while sucking Hare's cock while you talk here, but don't tell me ALL of you believe that crap.
ReplyDeleteM.E., you get amused easily. How can you look up all this boring shit?
ReplyDeleteOk I'm bored and it doesn't seem like this is topic is going to start a conversation. So instead lets talk about what everyone is reading. I'm reading Look Me in the Eye.
ReplyDeleteIn the softer sciences like psychology there is no concrete standard. If misdiagnosing patients is relatively common for the professionals, your average human has next to no chance of diagnosing themselves accurately. And shouldn’t even try. It hardly matters anyways unless you want to do something about it like seek help and treatment. I was misdiagnosed by 3 different professionals before my psychiatrist diagnosed my PD. Of course, there’s nothing to say that he’s any more right or wrong than the other 3. Maybe I shouldn’t say I was misdiagnosed so much as not fully diagnosed. I certainly present with the disorders they gave me, but none of them encompassed the extent to which I was dealing/not dealing with the world around me. My PD diagnosis at least covers all of my disorders and behaviors and gives a better guideline for better societal integration.
ReplyDeleteThese ‘experts’ don’t even have a solid guideline for diagnosis. The psych field at least recognizes this and is making an attempt to create a consistent model for diagnosis in the DSM-V, instead of guessing from a loose collection of symptoms and psychological presentations. I was just talking about this yesterday on my blog.
People also seem to forget that having any number of PD symptoms does not mean they have a PD. Most people demonstrate PD ‘symptoms’ at some point, even for a period of time. Who doesn’t lose empathy for people sometimes, or get paranoid, or overreact and cause a public scene, etc. What they forget is that it’s not just having a handful of symptoms but the pervasiveness and /severity/ of these symptoms to create a significant hindrance to a person’s interaction in society.
I agree that the experts may not have it all right because the field is so fluid. Anything involving people will have a measure of uncertainty. If the professionals can’t be trusted though, the uneducated layman certainly can’t be.
Kesu... I'm reading Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
ReplyDeleteI'm a geek.
What's Look Me in the Eye about?
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ReplyDeleteLook Me in the Eye is a memoir of an Aspie. Really interesting.
ReplyDeleteBTW Haven that is hawt. XD
I bet UKan can't read lmao
ReplyDeletehawt! hehehehehehe XD
ReplyDeleteFag
I'm reading a history of Modern Russia.
ReplyDeleteHm, memoir of an Aspie. Maybe i'll stick that on my reading list.
ReplyDeleteI'm way to into Star Wars. Sith specifically. Jedi can stuff it.
I never read a book in my life.
ReplyDeletelol. Not surprising since the Sith are all about emotions and the Jedi are all about being in control of their emotions.
ReplyDeleteRunning with siccor's is his first book Kesu.
ReplyDelete::laughs:: Exactly =)
ReplyDelete@Wish actually Running with Scissors is written by Augusten Burroughs(AB). The younger brother of John Elder Robison(JER). AB is the one who got JER to write it.
ReplyDeleteYour right, it's been awhile. Running with siccors was made into a movie, now there's a doctor for the ill. LOL
ReplyDelete@ Haven--Jedi can't stuff it, it's against the rules. ;)
ReplyDeleteKesu, I just finished "Naked Heat" & am about to pick up "Monster Hunter Vendetta."
Experts are not immune to the human tendency to fall in love with their own ideas. More knowledge does not automatically make one more open-minded, after all. I like the reviewer's quip "the madness industry"--clever & apt. I attempted therapy a couple of times, but did not stick with it. The "experts" would equate it with stopping a course of antibiotics before the prescription ran out, I suspect. The therapy was to deal with grief I'd shoved aside for too long, not anything relating to being broken by an S. Sorry if that disappoints anyone. OK, not really. See! I'm learning to play this game! It's fun, in it's own twisted way....
Anyone know any memoirs of sociopaths? Preferably self aware ones.
ReplyDelete"Sith are all about emotions and the Jedi are all about being in control of their emotions."
ReplyDeleteNo the Sith are all about destruction and the emotions in personal gain and the Jedi represent the emotions inherent in creation and collectivity. Notice the balance in "the force" came through the creative play between them. Like the yin and yang symbol. The dot of light in the dark, and dark in the light.
No they really don't. The Sith are about all emotions love hate etc etc. Jedi are suppose to be emotionless. Thus why they aren't allowed to wed have children. Why fear is dangerous. Star Wars is based off of another book. Called hero of a 1000 faces. Look it up. Supposedly the entire thing is based off of Ying-Yang Dualism.
ReplyDeleteYin*
ReplyDeleteKesu, they are not allowed to have wild affairs, wed and have children because that would mess with their perfect zen mood.
ReplyDeleteHero with a thousand masks . . . opps or was that faces.
Jedi aren't emotionless, they simply repress their base urges under a guise of outward selfless servitude. In effect they deny their self and the base nature of their very being. They function as less than a whole entity in my opinion. The Sith rely on their passion for their strength, embrace their urges, think inwards towards their own means.
ReplyDeleteSith are not inherently evil. They can and will ‘do good’, as long as it suits their end goals. Just like Jedi will make sacrifices of the few in order to preserve the greater good.
What the Jedi fail to realize is that there is always balance in the Force. The Force is nature. It does not choose sides. It simply is. It’s the practitioners that choose how much of The Force they will embrace. The Jedi limit themselves. The Sith open themselves completely.
Haven nailed it. This is just getting way to geeky. :D
ReplyDeleteThe Jedi aren't Zen practitioners. The Jedi are cowards. The Jedi aren't allowed to wed and have children not because it would mess with a zen attitude. In order to have these things you must open yourself to emotions. You must feel and embrace a path (emotion) that is not controllable. In that loss of control they fear the dark side will take hold. Which is amusing, because fear is a path to the dark side.
ReplyDeleteI'll geek out about this for days. And do. You shouldn't let me get on a roll with this stuff haha.
ReplyDeleteAnd in support of my previous answer . . . the Jedi and Sith are both warrior cults, again, the Jedi are about collective survival techniques inherent in cooperation and reciprocity. The Sith represent reactive hunger and greed. They both strive to achieve great power. And they both kill without conscious.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was younger, I used to collect all sorts of things to show off, anything that looked good, all you need is a chisel. I never knew anything in depth about what I was collecting. At one time we were stealing car logo's, I had three big bags full of them, had like three from a ferrari.
ReplyDeleteHaven "In order to have these things you must open yourself to emotions. You must feel and embrace a path (emotion) that is not controllable. In that loss of control they fear the dark side will take hold. Which is amusing, because fear is a path to the dark side."
ReplyDeleteWell stated. Yes, the lack of emotion stagnated the Jedi and the Sith brought up the balance. This can apply to any person, corporation or political system. Nature loves her balance (roar of thunder)
Star wars is disgracefully boring, Star trek is like slow death, I couldn't make it through one episode of it.
ReplyDeleteMy impression was that Jedi worked toward harmony via empathic means--this doesn't mean killing is off the table. To quote one of my favorite shows, "sometimes you just have to put the rabid dog down." I will also say from personal experience that it is hard to channel "healthy" spiritual energy when distracted by husband & children and their wants, needs & desires.
ReplyDeleteHaven, I'm not sure I agree with your assessment: In order to have these things you must open yourself to emotions. You must feel and embrace a path (emotion) that is not controllable. In that loss of control they fear the dark side will take hold. Which is amusing, because fear is a path to the dark side.
It is possible to feel it all but not base your reactions on your feelings. Sort of a "trust in the Divine" theory--it's more about sacrificing your desire to control the situation and letting "the highest good" come about through your actions. After all, Obi Wan turned his lightsaber off at the end of "A New Hope"--which is an obvious sacrifice of control of the situation, given that it was a lightsaber duel....
Oh, my, Kesu, you got us both going... hawt!
Yes, the lack of emotion stagnated the Jedi and the Sith brought up the balance.
ReplyDeleteSoulful, are you saying that the Jedi became semi-sociopathic? SQUEE! I love it!!! Just one more bit of "evidence" that corporate religion is dysfunctional....
sre you all still talking about star wars? losers..
ReplyDeleteThe Jedi Code (a.k.a. Fail)
ReplyDeleteThere is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
It's not that the Jedi don't actually have emotions or feelings, however they are not allowed to express them. So True Jedi are not allowed to act on their feelings, or react to them. However they are also supposed to work towards a state where they transcend emotions so they have zero influence in their existence. What's the point of getting married or have children if you're not allowed to express the one emotion you should be able to let run you over: Love. Love is an incredibly powerful, uncontrollable feeling... and therefore dangerous.
Obi-Wan learned had a transcendant Jedi teaching. His death wasn't a permanent death in the grander sense. It wasn't that much of a sacrifice.
As I mentioned before, and agree with you, it's not that killing is off the table for Jedi as long as it works to preserve the greater good.
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ReplyDeleteEdit: Obi Wan's death at the end of Star Wars IV (no one calls it A New Hope) was not a sacrifice of control. He chose his end, he chose how he would end, he chose when he would end... on the physical plane of existence. It was an ultimate act of control. He could have continued fighting and potentially beaten Vader as he had previously, but he chose his own path.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes Haven your comments were pristine, thoughtful and awakened.
ReplyDelete@Soulful... ::smiles:: Thank you. I am way too immersed in this particular topic haha.
ReplyDeleteI am traveling again today and then am focusing on a new business venture upon my return. So my obsessional focus will be elsewhere for a time . . .
ReplyDeleteHAN SOLO: "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid".
C3PO: "It's against my programming to impersonate a deity."
YODA:
"A Jedi gains power through understanding and a Sith gains understanding through power."
"Truly wonderful the mind of a child is."
"Always in motion is the future."
Adam, I am happy you have a hobby.
ReplyDeleteThe Red One . . you write beautifully and have a raw confidence. Great comments, the wide eye of an artist.
ReplyDeleteI like turtle's
ReplyDeleteThank you, Soulful--my smile is wide right now because of your comment. The Star Wars quotes didn't hurt, either.
ReplyDeleteHaven, sincerely glad you are here to school me on Star Wars--I confess that Episode One (aka the beginning of error, imho) killed a lot of my love for that universe. You should hear my rants on that movie... it would either make you laugh hysterically or correct me thoroughly.
"The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be…unnatural."
ReplyDeletethe black hole is the most powerful entity in space, all light is sucked into it, proof that evil is stronger than good. a true socio is like a black hole, sucking the goodness out of you.
ReplyDeleteWill miss your wisdom soulful.
ReplyDeleteI would say I regret starting all this but it just makes me smile to much to see this much nerd-dom from the female population. Not usually the ones you see it from.
ReplyDeleteOh, and who made & deleted the comment about understanding through power versus power through understanding?
ReplyDeleteIt was GENIUS!! And rather fitting to the whole empath/sociopath "battle." The more I understand how you all process & make decisions, the more power I have over my reactions. And am I in error to think that the more power someone brings to bear on another being, the better the understanding becomes?
(I feel compelled to apologize to Adam for not letting the Star Wars aspect die, but...)
LOL red never apologize(Specially to adam). This just isn't the place. The more power you have over a person the more you create that person.
ReplyDeleteThe social production, construction and distribution of 'health' and 'sickness' are wonderfully intriguing. Star Wars? Not so much.
ReplyDeleteThe Jedi and the Sith are both idiots. They both limit their own potential by picking a side.
ReplyDeleteIf you wanted to truly experience all that you could from the Force, you would go wherever both your heart and your mind took you. If it meant spending a year or two in a Sith or Jedi academy, so be it, but to be under the thumb of anyone's authority is to limit yourself.
It's just like Cops and Robbers, one's about seizing the day, the other is about keeping a cool head and keeping the peace.
The fact is though, that everyone's got a little of both in them, and most are too cowardly to embrace both of them and pick a side where everything will become comfortable and predictable.
An alliance is always something that should be temporary. Everything is a means to an ends.
I stay out of the cops and robbers business in the real world so I assume it would be the same way in Star wars. I like to be the big guy in the middle or work behind the curtains.
ReplyDeleteI've never seen Star Wars so I have no idea what you're talking about.
ReplyDeleteAh, where is Anon @9:45 from yesterday? Kesu has stumbled upon the honey-trap for smart girls--a genuine smile for our nerd/geek tendencies gets us wide open & willing faster than flowers & candy. And we foolishly think that if we can drop that mask because you "dropped" that mask... clearly this can be an open, honest relationship. Because this person shares a passion with us--and such shared intellectual passion is part of the basis for a solid relationship. Sex can grow stale or impractical; conversation has staying power.
ReplyDeleteReality, when it hits, hits hard. But if you learn from it, it is a great lesson.
Which is why I have no intention of succumbing to my compulsion to first apologize to Adam & then change the subject. See? Empath can be taught!
lolwut
ReplyDelete@the red one … Oh yeah. Episode I was a disaster. It was obviously Lucas trying to milk more money out of the series. There’s so much more to that Universe than the movies though. Read some of the books. I, of course, recommend the Sith line. So glad to have someone to geek out with =) Much thanks to you for that.
ReplyDelete@Notable … Both the Sith and the Jedi often spend their founding years in an academy. The Jedi have a tendency not to leave the confines of the order. The Sith see it as weakness to not pursue their own ambitions, whatever they may be. There was a time in Sith history when they began to fall towards the institutionalization of the Jedi order and they were weakened. Darth Bane ended that and restored the true Code of the Sith which is exactly that, following your own heart and mind to whatever means you see fit.
You’re right though, everyone has a little of both in the.
“An alliance is always something that should be temporary. Everything is a means to an ends.”
Sith.
@the red one... you are pure enjoyment.
ReplyDeleteAnd because I can and feel a need to balance my Jedi revelation from earlier:
The Code of the Sith
Peace is a lie, There is only Passion.
Through Passion, I gain Strength.
Through Strength, I gain Power.
Through Power, I gain Victory.
Through Victory, My Chains are Broken.
The Force Shall Set Me Free.
Stop giving away my secrets red.
ReplyDeleteStop making your secrets so obvious, Kesu.
ReplyDeleteSith Shmith. They might try to adopt these ideals, but they're not their own, just stolen.
ReplyDelete@red. Touche
ReplyDelete@Note isn't everything?
Soulful/Red One stop flattering yourself you crazy bitch.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what it is, I can sit around for weeks without doing a thing, no motivation. My ego is always nagging at me, constantly telling me that I can't go through life as a parasite, not that I feel bad about it but I know I'll never succeed if I stay like that. I can't imagine fading away like everyone else without the world knowing what I'm about. I'm worried that anything could happen resulting in my death, I'm not afraid of death as such, just my shot at success is gone forever, when I'm dead.
ReplyDeleteur manipulations r very boring
ReplyDelete::shrug:: It's all in good fun.
ReplyDeleteAnon @ 3:43 said "Soulful/Red One stop flattering yourself you crazy bitch."
ReplyDeleteNo.
I can't stop.
I haven't started yet.
& Kesu, you really need to reply when I text you... lest I prove that I'm a crazy bitch. ::wink::
I like crazy bitches though. Work well with them.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNo, it's not. But sometimes I forget you're a wannabe here, so you don't know how it is.
ReplyDeleteYou think it's a coincidence all psychopaths/sociopaths act and think in certain ways? No one handed us a How to be a Bastard manual, it's the result of nature and nurture without empathy and concscience.
Only poseur idiots like yourself would be idiotic enough to think they are learned mantras.
You want to be sociopathic? Knock yourself out. But don't pretend to be one. You clearly aren't.
@ Kesu--you do work well with the crazy girls, don't you? Like you need another motivation to make them nuts... I heart you.
ReplyDelete@ Notable--I'm not a wannabe, I'm a wannaknow. This is like switching from one form of dance or martial arts to another--I'm not going to stop being a contemporary dancer/kung fu kitten because I try to learn a little crumping or jujitsu.
@Haven--I will see you on your page! It's always good to meet another geek--especially another geek girl!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Ujk8yyn58
ReplyDeleteI wasn't talking to you red one. I don't even read half your posts. Just more fruity comment masturbation wrapped in a pretty package to ruin my time with your vacuous drivel.
ReplyDeleteI have this feeling it was directed at me. It was directed at me now was it O dear Note.
ReplyDeleteu 2 can argue 4ever but ur still both faggots so deal with it
ReplyDeleteNotable, that was a gorgeous insult you gave me. Consider me chastened.
ReplyDeletekesu. how do you do impression management? are you good at changeing perceptions? psychopaths are amazing at it. they know exact what you need to hear.
ReplyDeleteMOTHER FUCKER!!!! This thing ate my comment.
ReplyDeleteI think Notable was talking about Haven. Notable is having a bad day and taking it out on everyone.
ReplyDeleteUm. I have a feeling Notable doesn't think I'm trying to impersonate a sociopath. I'm BPD. Most people here know that.
ReplyDeleteHe is projecting.
ReplyDeleteAttempt 2
ReplyDeleteHow do I? That is a lengthy explanation. Am I good at changing peoples perceptions? Yes. To say they just know is inaccurate.
Some of it is subconscious. I suppose this would be the just knowing part. Other parts of it are conscious. I watch for ques. So much of what people want/expect to hear is just mirroring them. It is often the answer is in the question.
One thing I am exceptional at is getting people to open up to me. This can be broken down into parts.
Part one would be to relate to them. I do this by telling a story that I know they will identify with or making a comment that goes in correlation with the meaning of their story. Something that says I agree with you or I can understand your perspective.
The next part is showing that you are accepting of them. The getting to know you phase. Find something that they feel that they did wrong or that was bad. Then you just need to say how it wasn't their fault, they were in the right, or that they had no choice. Once they feel that you won't condemn them then they generally will want to tell you more.
The third part is the non-judgmental stage. This is the part where you show that nothing they could do or will ever do is to wrong for you. Nothing is taboo. This is the stage where people really expose themselves. They will tell you their secrets.
This stage is the most trust building out of all of them. They already have a degree of trust in you. This stage just raises it to another level or couple levels.
The last stage isn't about getting them to open up. It's about control. You guide them. You tell them things or way to do things that will let them achieve something. Something attainable usually. They should give your opinions and ideas a large amount of credit. You want to get them to the point where they value your opinion over their own. When this happens the game is done. You've captured them.
Now many of the steps will be done at the same time. Some times they will all be done at the same time. Some times you will do them out of order. It can take an hour to do or weeks. It just depends on how good you are at it and how trusting the other person. Also changing their opinion is easy once you've completed the steps.
Now there are other ways to do this. Using status/position. logic, counter-logic, undermining their self confidence, using their morals/faith, using the group, and a host of others. I just find this is the best long term way to impression manage and easily change perceptions. In this state as long as you don't do anything overly treacherous, such as stealing all their money and burning down their house, you can get exactly whatever you want out of them. Even indiscretions against them you can easily repair.
All in all doing anything is just about paying attention to the person you are doing it to. If you want something from someone pick them apart. Know what makes them tick. People will tell you what you want you just have to be perceptive enough to hear it.
People will tell you what they* want you just have to be perceptive enough to hear it.
ReplyDeletetldr, jesus christ i only wanted an answer.
ReplyDeleteHaven,
ReplyDeletePsychology will be replaced by neurology and will eventually be a sub-set of human biology.
Then my answer should be more then sufficient.
ReplyDeleteNever!!!
ReplyDeleteAt least it won't be taken over by String Theorists.
ReplyDeleteString Theory is the shit. I'm in 50 places at once, living everyones' lives that ever lived and then some.
ReplyDeleteNow that is power. In theory.
penis
ReplyDeletehaven or any other empath, answer me this.. do you feel any emotions when you see a person suffering or witness a dead body?
ReplyDelete"All in all doing anything is just about paying attention to the person you are doing it to. If you want something from someone pick them apart. Know what makes them tick. People will tell you what you want you just have to be perceptive enough to hear it."
ReplyDeleteInterestingly enough, I think this same structure applies to empaths. They can do it altruisticly, i.e., doing it not to callously benefit from the person, but to create a two-way relationship. So the trigger to the method would not be "hey, I can benefit from that person", but "hey, wouldn't it be nice if we got along?".
It comes into play something that many socios here can't get their head around - empaths feel warm and fuzzy when they connect; it just is. I'm sure this sounds weird and ludicrous to some.
It's not a delusion. Selfishness and altruism walk hand in hand inside empaths. Sometimes one takes the backstage but remains in play, sometimes the other does it. And, of course, this dance in pairs cn be stretched and twisted by so many factors...
@Wet... I hope you're right.
ReplyDeleteI want my brain scan.
"haven or any other empath, answer me this.. do you feel any emotions when you see a person suffering or witness a dead body?"
ReplyDeleteDepends on the person. I don't have emotions for the dead. They're dead. I do have feelings when I'm forced to think about my own mortality brought about by seeing the dead, but that's for me, not for them.
Someone suffering... honestly not that much. Unless I know them and care a whole lot about them, I have no attachment and am therefore not very concerned.
Not able is the fake sociopath. His blog with its pretentious, poorly written drivel makes that perfectly clear.
ReplyDeleteNot able is a victim of his narc daddy, he is even an addict now. Def not a sociopath.
ReplyDeleteI second this. It's already happening given that people realize how big nature (as opposed to nurture) plays into this. Testosterone will be locked up, hehehe.
ReplyDeleteWet said...
Haven,
Psychology will be replaced by neurology and will eventually be a sub-set of human biology.
May 5, 2011 9:00 PM
not able writes in a heart-felt fashion into his own blog and then comes out here and play this 'bored from you' snobbish jerky tough ass guy.
ReplyDeleteOh. boy, just dissociated and pretentious and occasionally burst with a volcano of sperms
when i see someone suffering I can't continue staying around. i get away. with dead i get away after taking one good look and whispering 'all your problems are gone, buddy.'
ReplyDelete