Sunday, August 17, 2014

"Feeling For You"

To file under failings of empathy (and the urge to simplify and reduce humanity into a problem that can be fixed only if you point it out often enough?), from Timothy Burke:

When the streams do cross and someone in a group or a discussion suddenly says, “Actually, I feel pretty hurt or offended by the way you folks are talking about this issue, because I’m actually the thing you’re talking about”, what happens? Sometimes people make non-apology apologies (“sorry that you’re offended”), sometimes people double-down and say, “You’re crazy, there’s nothing offensive about talking about X or Y”. A turn or two in the conversation, though, and what you’ll often hear is this: “Look, I just care about you and people like you. So I want to help.” (Or its close sibling: “Look, not to insult you personally, but people like you/behavior like that costs our society a lot of money and/or inflicts a lot of pain on other people. Don’t you think it would be better if…”)

I’d actually like to concede the sincerity of that response: that we get drawn into these discussions and the judgments they create out of concern for other people, out of concern for moral and social progress. That we feel passionately about people who let their children go to the park by themselves, about people who train their children to go hunting, about people who are overweight, about people who drive big SUVs, about people play their radios too loudly in their cars, about people who buy overly expensive salsa, about people who play video games, about people who raise backyard chickens, about people who demand accommodations for complex learning disabilities, about people who follow the fashion industry, about people who post to Instagram, about people who feed their kids fast food twice a week to save time, and so on.

I’d like to concede the sincerity but the problem is that most of these little waves of moral condemnation or judgmental concern don’t seem to be particularly compassionate or particularly committed. The folks who say, “I just want to help, because I care about you” show no signs of that compassion otherwise. They usually aren’t close friends to the person they’re commenting on, they usually have little empathy or curiosity overall. The folks who say, “Because I care about progress, about solving the bigger problem” don’t show much interest in that alleged bigger problem. The person who hates the big SUVs because they’re damaging the environment is often environmentally profligate in other ways. If the SUV-judger is consistently environmentally sensitive, some other aspect of their concern for the world, their vision of a better society, may be woefully out of synch or weakly developed.

The people I know who really care about others generally aren’t the people going on Facebook to say, “Man, I’m sick of people hiding behind claims of depression” or “If I meet another mother who thinks it’s ok to bring cupcakes to my child’s class, I’m going to go berserk”. The people I know who are really think about incremental moves to improve the world don’t get hung up on passing judgments on someone they’ve witnessed fleetingly in public.

I also liked this comment on the same post:

I think that at least part of these kinds of incidental judgements that people have and the weird fierceness of them in contrast to their weak post-hoc justifications (false compassion) comes from not having a good way to talk about non-instrumental aesthetic concerns.

We (I mean Westerners I guess) cannot really appeal to aesthetics as a justification. Think about grammar. People always justify things like lay/lie or “12 items or fewer” in terms of clarity, as though it were actually likely to confuse someone about meaning. Of course, no one is ever confused about meaning in those cases. However, for someone who has a strong aesthetic sense of which is correct, there is a moment of annoyance, a kind of disgust-related aversion to hearing the wrong one. This is actual source of the grammar pedant’s complaint, but it can’t be expressed as a valid justification because it’s not instrumental to some commonsensical social goal. So they invent concerns about clarity of language. Ditto the driver who is momentarily annoyed by a bicyclist and then concocts arguments about how not sharing in licensing fees makes riders freeloaders. The presence of an element that doesn’t fit smoothly into a mental model of how a system should work (for people like themselves) is the real problem. People do have some interest in keeping their mental model of the world well-defined, if only to lighten cognitive load. What’s problematic is the prioritization of one group’s aesthetic concerns over another’s very lives (e.g. drivers who bully cyclists on the road).

I’m a fat person, or I have been on and off, and I more or less share your take on the situation there. I’m quite sure that people aren’t expressing their real concerns when they talk about health or medical costs. (After all, runners have an extremely high rate of injury and no one thinks that they are anti-social; much to the contrary.) Although I don’t really want to sign up for some kind of identity politics of fatness either, I think it is ultimately rooted in the disgust response, much like the kinds of aesthetic judgements that go along with racism.

I think that not being racist and not being homophobic etc. are special cases of suppressing these extraneous aesthetic requirements with the understanding that some specific dimension of variation needs to be tolerated and integrated into the mental model of how things work — but that tolerance is the result of hard-fought gains specific to each case.

Which of the mental health categories get this type of hate the most? 


  1. When someone says "I just want to help, I care about you," what they really mean (or maybe don't understand yet) is that it is THEM they care about, not you. It would be a manipulation. Its the same way for all of us. We are only here to take care of ourselves. There is no one to help. .Helping people doesn't work.

    1. If this has been your experience Anon 2:02 you might need to find some better people to hang out with. There ARE truly altruistic people in the world. I do good deeds each day for friends and strangers as a part of my spiritual practice. I do it for duty alone without expecting a reward. I think part of the reason I see more of this than most people is where I live. In Texas people seem to be more likely to aid a stranger for no reason other than that is how they were raised and that is how they see themselves. It may be that they want to see themselves as "good" people and so do good deeds to feed their ego. There are some people though who like me, through practice, automatically aid those in need. Like anything, if you do it often enough, it becomes a natural reaction. I live in the south and helping others is a bit more ingrained in our social contract than in many other places. Criminals here (other than scam artists who actually have an advantage because of this) are usually much more careful about isolating prey (at least the smarter ones) since bystanders are much more likely to interfere if someone needs help. People here genuinely try to help other people, both strangers and friends. My question to you is: Does it really matter WHY people help other people? Are someones motives that important? My religion promotes what translates to "selfless service". Meaning you do what you can to help people for the simple expedient that it is what needs doing.

      For a good example of how helping others can benefit a whole you can just take my living situation. We have three socios under on roof. Without each others financial help we would not be able to afford a nice house like we have. We cover each other when one is low on funds so we all eat well even if we run into a spot of bad luck. We watch each others mental and physical health. We talk out our really evil ideas and have a group laugh and then DON"T ACT ON THEM. This is a microcosm of course but we all benefit from helping each other. Society in general benefits from our not acting on our "evil", if amusing, impulses. By functioning as a unit instead of three individuals we are stronger, healthier, and more financially secure. We enjoy our lives more by sharing our ourselves.

  2. Same basic thing: apprehend something, decide unconsciously it is good/bad/neutral, then think somehing ("he shouldn't have done that") feel something (eg anger) think something ("I can't let this slide") do something (eg say, "people mustn't do that" or punch someone).

    look inside your experience - all this happens. but are you doing it? Or is it done through you?

  3. We don't have intentions we are run by data.

  4. Anon, Surely you jest. Many sociopaths on this blog claim to have helped saved the actual lives of several people, jumping on to railway tracks to save a child, fending off bullies, destroying those who commit domestic violence. Apparently they do it not because they feel they must or even should, because they can? Perhaps it seems expedient to do so in the moment, or simply because they are impulsive? And, if all people only cared about themselves, would not the world be nothing but a field of carnage? (Which, I must admit, appears the case much of the time; but I don't want to believe it and refuse to live as if it were.) History does show quite a few altruistic types that have managed to help countless people. Please tell me it's not so that no one in your life has ever helped you? No man is an island, not even a sociopath, much as they might believe themselves to be.

    1. We don't have to work on other people. We only have to work on ourselves. If you want to help people, leave them alone.

    2. Do you want to believe the narrative of psychopaths ? They are the last ones to come to aid in the hour of need. "The last one" is just a metaphor. In reality, they will not help. It's not in them to help. If anything, they will sabotage others' efforts to help those in need. Remember they are sick. Never forget that disease is the opposite of health.

    3. The reasons I might help by fending off a bully, or destroying someone who commits violence isn't because I can. The way I see it, society doesn't allow me to do those things. If I attacked (verbally or physically) someone randomly just because I feel like fighting or because I want to get someone pissed at me, I'm the one to blame, and if the authorities got involved I get in trouble. But, if I do those things because someone was getting bullied or abused, I'm a hero in that situation and even if the authorities got involved I have people to vouch that I was helping out and doing the right thing in that situation. Though don't let that fool you into thinking that I've never done something just for the sake of doing something nice. I have this "good deed of the day" thing going on. Plus, I try to act as Christian as I can, since I am a believing Christian.

    4. Anon@ 12:28 PM Thank you for your concern. I can assure you that I don't believe everything written here. But, I work with low-functioning socios and have witnessed some of them perform aid to others in some situations. Violent situations that could have turned out very nasty for me and for my other tenants, all of whom fall under the 'hard-to-house' designation. So, I strive to remain open-minded, to remember that everything created has its purpose. Even spiders serve to keep the bug population down.

    5. Tii,

      Thank you for sharing your thoughts. If you don't mind my asking, what other scripture do you follow? Just curious. I am not religious.

    6. The New and Old Testaments are pretty much the only ones I follow but, I do like to keep an open mind, so I've also read the Quran, the Hinayana, most of the Mahayana, read the Analects and the Doctrine of Mean ( from Confucianism), currently reading The Great Learning (Confucianism). I pick what I like from them, and what I believe Christians would also do. As for my own beliefs and actions, I would pretty much be Rastafari. I follow a lot of their culture and way of life, only thing is I don't believe Haile Selassie is the Christ. So I'm pretty much a Catholic Rastafari Sufi. Of course I'm no where as devoted as a true Rastafari or Sufi.

    7. Tii, Interesting that you read about so many, often conflicting belief systems. I am also somewhat versed in that regard, having had to fend off fundamentalists in my own family. Sufism, pantheism and Buddhism are particular beliefs I find fascinating. I also like fooling around with I Ching, the ancient book of changes. It can be quite entertaining.

      What do you think of the parables of Jesus, like the Good Samaritan?

    8. Actually one of my favorites. If you think about it the Samaritans and Jews avoided each other, and wanted nothing to do with one another because of minor conflicting beliefs. Another passage it tells about Jesus in a Samaria approaching a Samaritan woman and asking her for water. Her response is pretty much "Are you crazy? You're a Jew and I'm a Samaritan woman, how can you ask me for water?" But in the good Samaritan passage, a Samaritan approaches a man (whom we assume is a Jew) and goes out of his way to help him out, disregarding his background, not because of it's his friend, not because he's getting something in return but simply because that is the right thing to do. The parable doesn't tell but I've always assumed that after he goes back to the inn and pays the man's debt they would part ways, because of their background. So what we see here is an act of pure love, not the emotions, I don't believe that love is an emotion but instead a gesture. This is what I try to explain to empaths in many of my post of this site, just because I'm a sociopath and I can't experience emotions the way they do, just because my nature is a more logical one and is to analyze someone and try to figure out how there mind works, and just because I don't particularly care for other and their problems and lie about how I feel, doesn't mean that I am unable to do good for goodness sake or that I am programmed to only sabotage people. The same way as just because one is a Samaritan and the other is a Jew doesn't mean, that since the want nothing to do with one another, if one is hurt the other will necessarily turn a blind eye towards or enjoy the others pain. I've said it before, to me love isn't the magical, unicorn trotting over a wonderful rainbow, unexplainable feeling that empaths claim it is. That pure bullshit, cause I've seen people claim to love others and wrong them, I've seen children write facebook statuses about how much they love and talk in class about how wonderful and loveable their mothers are, and then call them a bitch or say that they hate them for the smallest issues. So I don't want to here hypocritical bullshit from empaths about how horrible I am for not being able to love my mom, cause even though I might not love her in the bullshit way they do, I do love her (appreciation, respect, and caring) and will do right by her. To this day I have never once called my mother a bitch (in front of her or behind her) and I have never once said that I hated her. So yes, as a "Christian" I do try to act the way Christians should, sure I'm not Jesus and I'm not always kind to people, but I can say that I act a hell of a lot nicer (and my friends and family would vouch) than most of the people I know.

    9. That was enlightening Tii. Thank you

    10. He just preached the gospel. Amazing words brother. You described love at its fullest; feelings, fuzzies, mean jack shit. It's the attributes that mean something.

    11. Tii, You are such a pleasure to read. "So what we see here is an act of pure love, not the emotions, I don't believe that love is an emotion but instead a gesture." Course, I'm sure you know that empaths would disagree; whatever. Of course empaths hurt others all the time and then justify it. What interests me about your comment is this -- If love is a gesture, what does it look like physically, on a corporeal level, in concrete form. Because I make all kinds of gestures every day and a lot of them mean nothing and look terrible -- confusion at some dumb remark does not sit lovely on my features.

      As for hypo-meta BS from empaths whining on about their horrible, fake mothers, what can I say? They are supposedly human, too. I still love my mother very much; my dad is more of a challenge. Bad temper and very selfish. They are both dead in any case.

      Nobody is always kind, period. Jesus wasn't, either. Look up other stories about Him besides the bible. And don't sweat if you sometimes feel like murdering someone -- just don't do it. Way I see it, if there is a god, He's only Jesus when he's in a good mood; He's Satan when he's pissed off. Just like me.

    12. To steal the words from Lutan Fyah's song "Love is a smile" of course that would imply a genuine smile with good intentions.

      And yes I now jesus wasn't always kind, it shows in the Bible too. But I believe he always had good intentions, I suppose that's up for debate.

      Never really thought of it that way, God being both the Savior and the Devil. I guess it could be, though I don't think it would be as simple as depending on his mood.

    13. Nothing is ever simple in my experience. May be just me.

      But I do think that god or whatever you want to call It is both complicated and contrary, too. It would have to be. Just as Newton's and Einstein's theories are not an easy fit alongside quantum mechanics. Yet both physics' theories appear to work and operate side by side. And each defines some aspect of reality. Anyway, I've never met god, an angel, ghost or other supernatural being. You may laugh, but I still occasionally dare both god and the devil to strike me down rather than not speak to me; if They do in fact exist I really don't see why They won't talk to me. But, I'm still here, still waiting. No lightening has struck as of yet. For how long who cares. Nothing you can do but dance while the dancing's good.

    14. As for good intentions . . . they pave the road to hell. Acts build pyramids and other kingdoms; intentions only squeak. Intentions did not carry the load it took to build Stonehedge.

    15. I do laugh, but only because I sometimes dare them myself to strike me down, or appear before me, or other things. As you say, "Nothing you can do but dance while the dancing is good."

      As for intentions, those mean little to me, what I meant was smiling with good intentions. Meaning to uplift someone, acknowledge them, or comfort them, instead of smiling because someone's hurt or you're expecting someone to get hurt (I think I've mentioned it before, when I'm about to fight against someone who provoked me I always have a smile or grin on my face, that wouldn't count as a smile with good intentions). Intentions by themselves is like saying it's the thought that count, and I've already expressed my thoughts on that being full of crap. Acts might have built the pyramids, the Stonehenge, or other kingdoms, but a smile after the first stone was set might have brought hope and comfort, and helped believe that one day they will accomplish that back breaking task. A bright smile towards someone who's down can make them lift there heads once more. Of course, there is nothing concrete to prove this, but it as long as it doesn't hurt to smile while not just keep it going.

    16. Hi Tii, Good to hear you laugh. )

      You're right. Smiling with good intentions sends a certain vibe and most people, even the ones asleep, can sense it. I know I do. The predatory smiles I know very well, too. From working with people who exploit each other night and day in both tragic and hilarious ways. It's all in the eyes and lips, and a certain devious sparkle they emit. Now when I first started working there I would become annoyed when they tried to run their games on me. But their attitude has since changed and for the most part they don't lie to or try to game me as much as they used to. Suppose it could be that they feel they can put their scams to better, more effective use elsewhere. In any case, I've developed warm feelings toward many tenants who in the past have threatened to kill me. It seems almost funny now when I think back how worried I sometimes felt, because a couple literally stepped in front of maniacs and took blows to protect me. I share a secret smile with many of these folks, who, low-functioning as they may be, still express a wide range of canny, interesting abilities, including showing sorrow and sympathy for other beings that can certainly seem authentic. (One could argue that `I'm being naive, that they are acting, but for reasons I can't explain I don't think so.) Mind you, I wouldn't want to cross one; their thirst for revenge is pretty intense, usually resulting in stab wounds. Lately, whenever I think about some of the most cold-hearted opportunists who live in the building, l flash back to the scene at the end of the movie Under the Skin. I think it's the most moving alien invasion story I've ever seen, a perfect metaphor for the sociopath. The ending, where the alien blankly gazes upon her former epidermal disguise, her still animated, beautiful human face, is priceless. And it exactly matches the look I've seen on the opportunists when they are brooding alone in their hotel rooms.

      I like the way you see things, btw. You are obviously someone who likes to think, probe deep. I like that, too. The darker the mystery, the more I want to investigate.

    17. The reason you don't think so is because it doesn't matter whether they are acting or not. If I see a friend crying, I might not care the slightest bit why, or whether or not it's serious but, to be a good friend I will ask and try to console them. I'm acting like I care even though to me it doesn't make a differznce whether they are crying or not. The end point is they feel better after I pass, it doesn't matter whether or not I care, what matters is that I'm taking care of them. The thought doesn't count like people claim, if actions speak louder than words, they sure as hell speak louder than a thought.
      Well, I don't do much in my spare time, only thing left to do is ponder, and attempt to solve the mysteries of the world.

    18. One of the most important things I have ever heard was "Love is a verb". I see so many people mouthing the word and then acting in the totally opposite way from what love is.

      I can define Love for you June. It is the act of doing for/helping another without expecting anything in return or even giving a thought to what you get out it. What you get out of it includes warm fuzzy feelings in my opinion. Those warm fuzzies that empaths so cherish? They are endorphin's that are released when they are happy.

      Oh dear... epiphany time. So the argument that the hater empaths have to prove we are sub-human or less than they are is that our endocrine systems don't reward us with drugs when we do good deeds like their's do? I wonder now if the normative's entire worldview is slaved to their feelings? If so do they get bad drugs released when they do bad things? Is that where this nebulous conscience comes from? Then they have the gall to hate us because we don't have a drug induced reward punishment system? Excuse me while I go off and have a huge laugh over this.

    19. Puppy Basket,

      I get this -- anyone who belongs to a member of a class, and who has experienced injustice, discrimation or hate for being a member of that class would (unless they are mindless) be able to identify, or empathize with this sentiment:

      "I wonder now if the normative's entire worldview is slaved to their feelings? If so do they get bad drugs released when they do bad things? Is that where this nebulous conscience comes from? Then they have the gall to hate us because we don't have a drug induced reward punishment system? Excuse me while I go off and have a huge laugh over this."

      Anyone whose entire world view is slaved to emotions, or slaved to anything at all is inflexible and cannot learn and adapt. This is not just a property of some empaths though -- it is a universal part of the human condition.

      But still I wonder what do you feel when you write that. What does laughing induce in you. Isn't it true that laughing makes us happy by releasing endorphins and other hormones and/or neurotransmitters.

      It isn't just true that happiness makes us laugh. It is also true that laughing makes us happy. So laughing is a robust psychological way to deal with hypocracy and injustice.

    20. Humor is more cerebral for me newbie. Irony and parody are my favorites. Absurdity tickles that funny bone too. Puns and wordplay. I can understand and appreciate these things. I have learned to laugh when other people do so I don't look odd and try very hard to cover when laughing in really inappropriate situations. Like at plane crash.....
      I can be happy..ish. My friends and I play Cards against Humanity and sometimes collapse on the floor we are laughing so hard. Usually at the worst possible combos. We go out of our way to try and be horrible sometimes. We succeed admirably. No I really don't get a big endorprhin rush from it. Just cerebral smilies.

      I smile all the time. Always. It makes people think I am a happy individual. HAPPY HAPPY BASKET OF PUPPIES!
      I got told I was the nicest person someone had ever met again today.....
      That happens a lot. Whether they know or not. He doesn't. It weirds me out sometimes. It either means I have the most awesome disguise ever and/or I am working my code right, or that a sociopath is the nicest person they have ever met. Either way....

  5. The failings of empathy described in "Feeling for You" occur frequently in the healing professions, to which I'm privy. Not to mention the rush of secondary ego gains the actual empath feels via his ministrations, whether real or simply imagined. It's true that those who help others for no apparent personal gain do profit emotionally, and through osmosis. Feeling the wounded/frightened person's relief and joy is a very real physical pleasure for these people.

    1. What do you know anything about us? If we so need to know, we have the capacity to access you, but only for a fleeting unbearable moment. Even what I have said previously will not make sense to you as I have intended. We can never reach out to you. Only you can reach us, by "realizing" you are severely handicapped by an unfortunate pathology.

    2. Oh don't get it wrong... We do realize. It's just that it's more like a fortunate pathology then an unfortunate one ^_^ .

    3. Anon, I don't know anything about you or anyone else that posts here. I'm visiting. Curious. You may have noticed, btw, that the post was not about socios but empaths. The failings of empaths in particular. But also one example of their joy.

    4. To be perfectly honest, I cannot say for sure whether Anonymous12:40 would self identify as an empath, sociopath, or aspie, or some combination therein.

      Does that make me an aspie?

      Have I reached out?

    5. Ah the sheer terror of it. One thing you learn with aggressive personalities in your life (and particularly one who lies for sheer pleasure, and to always have the upper hand -- in his own mind that is) is to

      not taking anything they say for granted.

      What I mean by this is to temporarily suspend any preconceived ideas you have about the state of mind of someone who could say such a thing.

      But rather imagine a totally different conscious condition where what is being said is meaningful to that person in such a way as they would bother to say it.

      I mean it could be true, could it not that anon, my true friend, is a psychopath pure and simple, or an aspie, or your run of the mill socio.

      It's true, one thinks at first it must be an empath.

      That's taking things for granted.
      Of course such a person would feel that anything that followed was totally ridiculous.

      Wouldn't you?

    6. ps there are possibly lots of posts here that look like an empath would write them but in fact did not.

      Look all you empaths, this article is about the failing of empaths, as was said before.

    7. Finally, my friend anon could be genuinely expressing his or her state of mind and feelings in the sense of the 'whole truth' -- even if they are a psychopath for instance.

      In that case, supposedly empathetic people just miss the boat entirely.

      Please do not misunderstand me to imply that anon here is lying about how he feels and thinks. he may well be telling the truth. It may also just be humour. It could be many things.

      But I took him as expressing a genuine truth of his personal awareness even if he was a psychopath and then see if it could make sense -- if I were in his or her shoes.

      Over and out.

    8. Newbie, You make interesting comments. It's Anon's tone, not his words per se, that give him/her away. His 'core' tone is full of fear, loathing and contempt. Whether he/she is an empath or socio matters not at all to me. Too many labels, not enough essence, so to speak. Self-labeling, labeling by a shrink, any kind of label that 'tags' a human being, limits the scope of what it is I'm trying see. Here or anywhere. I find labels akin to branding cattle or a business. Shallow and rather boring; the real product, meat and bone, lies beneath the butterfly or scorpion tattoo. So while I recognize that labels like socio and empath distinguish certain people from others on this site and in the field, I'm trying not to be judgmental regarding Anon. Besides, I don't know him but from one small, albeit rude, comment. But that runs like water off my scaly back: I'm a water snake according to Chinese astrology. (I read some weird post about astrology on this site a few days back.)

    9. Hi June,
      I find some of your comments thought provoking too. I did not take "His 'core' tone is full of fear, loathing and contempt." or that he was giving anything away.

      It may not be so simple. If one is consistently misunderstood and consistently met with remarks which are nonsensical or totally off the point, then one would naturally adopt such a stance as this person may present. I could imagine such a person could feel isolated to say the least.

      As i"ve written before, I'm not a big fan of labels either. But we mostly all use them here, as you did in your previous comment at 10:40. They are handy shortcuts sometimes leading to mistakes we make, assumptions that are simply not true.

      I do not necessarily see loathing. It could be sadness, for example.

    10. and finally, my friend anon here may well self-identify as an empath. I have seen far harsher descriptions of socios from empaths than anything written here... sub-human, monsters, all should be killed, etc.

    11. His 'core' tone is full of fear, loathing and contempt... I'm trying not to be judgmental regarding Anon."


    12. See June, my best guess here from that one paragraph by Anon is that he or she does not identify as an empath -- quite the opposite. I read the remark as an attempt to make a point or at least get some laughs from the response. Such a person is also reflecting back words they incessantly hear about themselves from empaths back to them -- how they are pathologized and how they 'do not understand'.

      But this could all be wrong, but it is possible and totally self-consistent and not driven by the specific core you assigned necessarily. It could be a genuine attempt to reach out. Just not the way you would do it.

    13. Newbie@:12:00

      "Could be sadness." Of course. Sadness/anger/isolation and her sisters/brothers are cousins. Suffering is attachment to these emotions, said the Buddha. Well, we're all attached to something.


      12:12 "harsher descriptions of socios from empaths." Yup. The definitive parameters comprising the the label "empath" needs redefinition in the same sense as the traits/behaviors of socios. We know practically nothing compared to what there's left to discover in just about everything, I think.

      Anon@ 12:33 PM You're right. I can smell contempt parsecs away. Like I said, I'm trying . . . to reach out, too. ;-)

      Newbie@ 1:47 At 12:12 you wrote, "my friend anon here may well self-identity as an empath. (Nope. See comment on contempt.) At 1:47 PM you say, "Anon . . . he or she does not identify as an empath -- quite the opposite."


      You are right that Anon is reaching out. Don't we all. Anon appears to be reaching out in a roundabout way -- looking for his own mirror? To know him/hersel? (I'm sure many socios are chuckling at that one). Knowing others, those shiny empathic mirrors, always leads back to the self one way or another. How ironic and funny it is that we can never escape ourselves, not through space, time nor anything but insanity. I've been to Santa's village (to be honest, it was 80 miles south of Old Crow) and back and always it's the same Me. I do not mean M.E., btw. We're both dark angels, but the twist of our wings significantly differs.

    14. Just to clarify, in case there may be a misunderstanding, I said at the beginning of this set of replies that I do not know for sure if anon self-identifies with being an empath, psychopath, sociopath, aspie, etc. I have expressed a consideration of these different options. Hence the terms "may well be", etc. my point is that once one considers the different possibilities life is more complicated, sublime and interesting than otherwise.

    15. Newbie, I got that but nonetheless appreciate your further sublime comments. It's simply interesting that a socio would make the effort to pose as an empath, if in fact that is Anon's his/her propensity. On a site like this, where everything is anon, who cares what we say? I would never pose as anything. Why bother and I have better things to do -- like trying to stay awake. Half of the human race appears to be soundly asleep. Not that I blame them. It is rather dog-eat-dog, the same old story, eh?

    16. Hi June,
      If you have read my remarks to mean that the only possibility for a psychopath to write those remarks is to "pose" for the sake of posing, then I have not explained my POV well enough for you to understand.

      It could be a way of getting a message across, nothing more or less. This person could find that they are usually misunderstood by people who claim to be empaths. It could lead to a strong feeling of isolation. Then they just use a similar set of words as are directed at them. But it is actually how they feel too. This is just one of many possibilities.

    17. so on that basis, if anon were a psychopath explaining himself in a language empaths could understand, he would be holding the mirror up to anyone who cares to read his or her words and imagine themselves in his or her position.

      ps. it would be ludicrous to assume that a psychopath always lies about his view of himself in interaction with others. And it makes sense to me. If I were a psychopath I could imagine writing those words and 'really' meaning it -- explaining how I see things in a community that treats me as alien.

      Most important battles have been fought on the territory of imagination, and what stories we allow ourselves to tell depend on what we can imagine.

    18. Newbie, I totally agree with your assessment. No one strikes out like that, whether they are an empath, socio or saint, unless they are aching for contact. Lucky for Anon I can totally relate. (I'm kidding, Anon, in case you take that too seriously.) Bit of a paradox though, no? That a so-called emotionless being _can_ feel isolated. Says a lot, actually. Ties in with a pet idea I'm working on regarding all physical beings, plant, animal and human.

      I hope Anon comes back. All's good in the hood, as my tenants like to say.

    19. June

      You have raised many interesting issues.

      I offer no more than a point of view, about reaching out -- rather than just striking out. I'm trying to offer a window of possibilities that lead me to attempt to comprehend or empathize to the extent I can with what people write -- in a similar way no matter what I believe their personality type to be.

      Its only my limited ability to empathize, not my desire to do so, that would lead me a priori to respond to such remarks based unjustifiably on attributes that are attributed to specific personality types. Each person is a individual not a stereotype.

      I hope this is clear, but if not, let me know.

      Language is important as are our attributions. That's why I didn't jump to a conclusion about a 'core tone', or that Anon here would necessarily be posing if he or she were a psychopath. I would jump to that conclusion either if I believed anon were an empath.

      Yes, a bit of a paradox. I can see that.

      But I would say it's a mess of contradictions. For example, if one attributes to psychopaths (which is not what you do) that they are emotionless beings then it would not be possible, by definition, to try to empathize with their point of view.

      Feelings of isolation, or responses that tend to create feeling of isolation in the recipient, are something that can be addressed and from my POV could make the world a better, richer, more sublime and harmonious place.

  6. M.E., this very much reminds me of what Dr. Phil said to you when he expressed how "bad" he felt for you that you don't experience life the same way he does. Clearly, he actually feels superior to you and is disturbed that you apparently don't agree.

    1. I also feel sad that a socio cannot connect with others unless it is empowering them or being able to gain some kind of power due to manipulation & causing harm to others. It is sad!! Missing out on so much. If I could get that kind of enjoyment of abusing and harming others.. I just cannot wrap my head around that. I'm thinking that is why the thirst cannot be quenched because of not being able to truly connect. sad existence...

    2. I believe there is one word that would fit succinctly to this:


    3. Ever read exquisite corpse

    4. Anonymous Aug 17 3:51 PM,
      Do you have any friends that never do anything good for you? Do you have any friends from whom you have absolutely nothing to gain from, whether it be emotionally or materialistically? Do you have any friends that bring absolutely nothing to the table besides pain, or negative outcomes? If you answered yes to any of those, you're either a liar who is trying to make my argument invalid, or a desperate ass mofo in dire need of acceptance and affection (which you won't get if the don't bring emotional pleasure to you), or you really have not grasped the concept of friendship. Now, if you've answered no to these questions, how are you so different then us? Aww... Poor, poor you for not having noticed that you too lived a sad existence. But, don't worry, everyone else does too.

    5. @Tii
      You raise some good points and ask a question: How are we so different? Many, but not all, socios here and elsewhere express what looks like glee or pride in themselves from setting out to ruin someone who for whatever reason, they were attracted to.

      They lie about their intentions. Its a conscious, willful set up and the more their target is destroyed the more happy they are.

      The fact that remorse is not felt afterward means only that the intentional behavior will continue to the next target.

      Its that intention to 'ruin', in the absence of any harm done by the other person, that non-socios do not comprehend as a meaningful way to live one's life.

      It's also what leads to expressions of outrage on the part of victims, when they realize what has happened, the betrayal, and the intent behind it.

    6. Like you said not all. Let's also make it clear that very few empaths do not lie or set up people for there own benefit. Maybe their goal isn't the destruction of the other person but just to try and make it in a harsh world, or trying to fit into a certain crowd. Have you ever seen mean girls in high school, or mean guys (i guess?)? Some of them will bully and talk down another person just to be cool, without regards of the other persons feelings. And they won't show any remorse, or at least they will swallow it for the sake of their pride. I remember a friend of mine in highschool was bitten by another kid, so we went out to humiliate him and pay back. When we got to him after listening to the way he answered back and after observing his behavior, I asked him if he was autistic. He answered yes and asked if it was a problem, I immidiately suggested to my friend that we let him slide this time and warned the kid that newt time he acted out I would take care of him. My friend, an empath, replied "fuck it I don't give a shit, let's keep it low and nobody has to know that he is, if anyone finds out we'll just pretend we didn't know". Out of anger he was willing to do this. If someone can do the same things a sociopath does while feeling remorse but still going on... aren't they much worse? As I see it the only thing we're guilty of is not feeling remorse. Sure, a lot of sociopaths make it their goal to hurt others, but not all of them. Let's remember that most of the sociopaths caught and studied are in jail and criminals. There are many more out there just trying to live and enjoy their lives.

    7. Meh?
      Bob,you do not get it. Sorry. Feelings are more important than sight or hearing. I know I have said that before. Life is boring without feelings. Why do you think the world has all those songs, books, movies, plays, and other form of art all centered around feelings?
      But this "meh" of yours reminds me of what I read quite a while back in the book: "An anthropologist on Mars". If you are in the neuro science field, you probably read the book. It is a very fun read overall. There is this person in the book who is blind from just after birth. Then by his middle age, he is physically "cured" through surgery of his blindness. He can see at last... Except that he cannot make any sense out of what he is seeing. His brain has not been taught to see. So eventually he becomes blind again, not because his eyes cannot see, but because his brain cannot handle the load. I am hoping you can see the parallel. Hugs..

    8. Tii, I have great respect for you, assuming you live your life the way you say you do, which I think is true. You have fantasies about ruining and emotionally hurting people, but if you don't carry them out, that makes you as good or better than quite a few empaths. You are better than some of those judgmental empaths that denigrate, bully, disrespect and hurt people just because they perceive them as different and unworthy, and because they do not fit their narrow idea of what they think is right.

    9. Dots, very well said. But i believe some of the "higher functioning" sociopaths know that about themselves, and try to curb those tendencies. Still hard to fathom why an adult would want to emotionally hurt a person that has done them no harm and that is friendly to them. You see this often in younger kids, though. Also, there is slapstick humour which a lot of adults enjoy. They laugh at people being hurt physically. Think "America's funniest video" for instance, We also have the Simon Calwells of the world that have made a fortune by publically being mean. And ask what sells papers most... Empaths are not completely immune to being interested in other peoples demise.

    10. OldAndWise,

      Well you raise many good points, just a thought here.

      It's the personal betrayal -- not simply some random person's demise.

      And of course, the province of 'evil' is inhabited by all personality types, and yes of course some higher functioning socios realize one day that their delight in ruining an intimate partner or family member or friend -- that short term reward, in their cost-benefit analysis, comes up short for what they want in life.

      Unfathomability as you say. I wonder how that decision making process goes, giving up the power to ruin. How and why that change can happen.

    11. Tii and OldAndWise,

      I am learning a great deal from your exchanges. Bravo!

    12. Dots, you are right. It is the personal betrayal that is unfathomable to "regular" people. The sociopath empathy circle does not naturally extend beyond him/herself, and that is what is hard to understand.
      I am also interested in what it takes to give up the power to ruin, and the power to seduce, because in my mind, those two go hand in hand.

    13. OldAndWise,

      On reflection, I agree now with what you wrote. In particular that the power to ruin goes hand in hand with the power to seduce. Perhaps it is the single-minded focus on control, which seems related to some degree with the sentiment express by Tii -- that he sees his relationship with his sister as a 'me and mini-me duo'.

      Two questions are:

      what would create in such a person a desire to change that overcomes desires for control, or needs -- whatever you want to call them.

      Under what circumstances then would such a person have the power to change their fundamental want to control, and give up their power to ruin and seduce. That would be having the desire to change as well as the control of themselves to do so.

    14. Hahah even though she probably doesn't know there is a name for it, I'm sure that my younger sister has realized that I have a different thought process than others. Probably the only one in the house who realizes that. But I wouldn't try to control my sister, not only because I have no desire but, also because it wouldn't be an easy task (too much work and nothing to gain really). She's too old for it and like I said she has developed a character like mine. Even though she's very emotional, she's very analytical, she wouldn't fall for people trying to fool her. She learned from me not to put too much trust in anyone, whether it be friends or family. She has become pretty good at mind games, to the point where when I try to play a joke on her she will sometimes catch on and pretend to fall for it, then turn it around on me last minute. She's good at reading emotions, but she's a horrible judge of character. I don't call her lini me because I control her to be like me but, more like because she absorbs my behavior and tweeks them to make them her own.

    15. Hi Tii,

      Thanks for that and for many of your other posts here. I find you refreshingly cheerful too. I see that your are not about controlling your sister. Didn't mean to imply that you IN PARTICULAR were. I was referring to a sentiment not to you.

      My suggestion is that a world view of relationships with close others as 'absorption' or strong self-identification (whatever one wants to call it) is often related to an obsession for controlling.


    16. I guess it could be for some. Their may be a certain obsession for control in people who are looking desperately to confirm their success or to establish a certain legacy. They might be trying to leave there traces behind.

      I, one the other hand, am more about about freedom. In all honesty, most of the time I find having to socialize pretty bothersome. I prefer living a quiet life without having to constantly associate with people, meaning controlling people isn't really part of my agenda, and I will refrain from doing it as long as I'm not provoked. A beautiful woman by my side to play with wouldn't be to bad. I'm not to bad at seducing, and while others might thing that it is wrong, I'm pretty sure I can make a woman feel more loved than the average can. So as long as I don't brutally break her heart I don't see what's wrong. Starting my life anew in a small rural town with lots of landscape, away from family and friends sound pretty good to me.

    17. Tii, it looks like what you are saying is that freedom, for you, relies on a sense of personal detachment. Can you say more about your view of freedom as a value, or a feeling, or a set of principles?

    18. Yes, I would say so too. With personal detachment, no one knows me the next place I go, so no one expects anything. I guess you could say I'm growing tired of putting on a mask the same mask (one that has nothing to do with what I want). I'm thinking a peaceful job, one that pays enough to live comfortable but not extravagantly, in a small rural area where I can walk out of town to go enjoy the landscape with a minimum amount of noise. For that I first have to leave this loud (pretty) big city life I am living with my parents.
      My understanding of freedom means no values, and no principles, just me comfortable in my skin without being bothered and not bothering, where I am able to "go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence". - Desiderata by Max Ehrmann

    19. That's fascinating Tii. I can't imagine what it is like to be in your shoes and I've never understood that freedom could mean no values and no principles. That's a freedom beyond my imagination. I can't yet conceive how that is possible.

      Also, what do you think about this quote on sociopathworld?

      "So there you have it. Because I know who and what I am, I now know what I want: power, which equals freedom."

    20. Financial, economical, and social power can be mistaken for freedom. With all these, who would dare to stand up to you. I guess I can see why some would think that it could mean freedom, if you want to travel you travel, if you want to go out clubbing or eating, you go. But, like the saying goes "With great power comes great responsibilities" and with responsibilities comes the loss of freedom. That's like a lion in a cage at the zoo thinking that he is free because he wakes up and sleeps as he wishes, and has a constant amount of food coming to him each day, he has space to go and stretch his legs, and lionesses to keep him company. As powerful as he may seem with all of that, is he free?
      From my perspective power isn't freedom, but freedom is power. If I am completely free (let's say it was possible) I can do whatever the hell I want. Now with the freedom I can obtain, which would be as I mentioned earlier away from people's gazes enjoying the landscape, I am more powerful then him and all his money. Because of his social standing and environment he is limited to a certain behavior. Let's say where he is in the city living his extravagant life, he wants to run around and scream, kick, punch, and jump, if he attempted to do that it the city people would look at him like WTF and would probably keep their distance from him, and if he over does it the authorities would come and check what's going on. Me in my meadow, I can. Alright that's not much let's go further, if I decide to take a shit every ten steps I make in my meadow, who will tell me otherwise. Every ten steps I take I shit as I please. Let me see him do it in the big city, walking on the sidewalk, in a building, or anywhere that isn't his property. Take a shit in public and get arrested.
      So to put all this together, with freedom you can do whatever you want, with power you can have whatever you want, but everything you do is being watched and broadcasted through the grape vines. You can only act according to what people expect of you. One example, The Great Gatsby, powerful man with economical, political, and social connections. HE could live as wild as he wanted, have almost everything he wanted, but let me see him go in town and take a shit every ten steps he takes. Let's see the President do it, the Royal family of England, or a CEO of a Company do it. Sure your assets remain, but with each shit you dump your influence diminishes. When your power depends on materialistic things, and people, you might be able to buy almost everything you want (so I guess you have purchasing freedom), but you are far from real freedom.

    21. "Our freedom can be measured by the number of things we can walk away from." -Vermond Howard

      Looked it up to make sure of the wording... I like this one.

    22. "Unfathomability as you say. I wonder how that decision making process goes, giving up the power to ruin. How and why that change can happen."

      I can probably help you out here. I gave up the power to ruin because I found I really did not have that power in the first place. I had no power of all except the illusion of it.. Like Tii said the more things I try to control the more I am enslaved by them. The next epiphany came with the realization that the I does not even exist. Who I am is just a story my mind creates. Take my body apart atom by atom and you will find no one thing that is "I". I practice a form of Hindu detachment. The elimination of the ego and the practice of selfless service. I actually lucked out in being a psychopath in this. Makes it much easier in some ways to not form attachments to the physical world. Harder in some ways to kill the ego though.

      I stopped being a practicing sociopath as the result of a spiritual awakening. I have noticed that the other non violent sociopaths n this site also have spiritual codes that they follow. This might be a deciding factor in "healing" us. I did not stop all at once and I did have mentors, I still do and still have to make daily progress. I think the reason some of us are more able to do this than most is that we don't see other people as objects like many sociopaths and some other mental disorders like narcissism.

      I have the spiritual belief that all life is equal and part of a single "spiritual organism". Therefore to harm one part of it harms all parts of it, me included. Kind of like killing all the bacteria in your body will kill the body itself. Nurturing the whole by nurturing the parts creates a stronger whole.

      I do not always achieve this "zen" ideal. I am tempted to smack or destroy many a fool. My mind comes up with hideous things to amuse me still. Just today I considered if it would be viable to distill poison ivy juice and inject it into cigarettes just for the lulz. Just because I started living a better life does not mean that the predator that lives in my brain has gotten any tamer. I just keep it under control or turn it to a higher purpose.

      Do not pity me Old and Wise I can feel spiritual joy, and spiritual love, well not sure if "feel" is the right word. I can experience it. We really need a new language to describe our "feelings". I would rather not feel self loathing and horror and fear I consider it an even trade off for not feeling the "happy" emotions.

    23. "We really need a new language to describe our "feelings". "
      Spot on. Let's do it.

      "Take my body apart atom by atom and you will find no one thing that is "I"."
      One thing we know from physics, is that emergent phenomena, which are more than the sum of their parts, occur even in much simpler systems that human consciousness -- even a pile of sand, exhibiting avalanches when a single grain drops on them, is more than the some of their parts.

      The existence of a self, or an "I", is an emergent phenomena.

      That's what I guess spirituality means to me these days. You can call this a higher power, the creation in the universe of complex systems. Our universe is not simple and neither are we.

    24. Beautifully stated Puppy Basket.

      "This might be a deciding factor in "healing" us. I did not stop all at once and I did have mentors, I still do and still have to make daily progress. I think the reason some of us are more able to do this than most is that we don't see other people as objects like many sociopaths and some other mental disorders like narcissism. "

      So three essential ingredients are:
      1. A belief in a higher power
      2. To have mentors {every human being needs mentors in order to mature}.
      3. To not treat other people as objects.

      How do socios define people as objects and what does it mean to not treat others as objects?

      How is that related to one's sense of self?

      Is this selfish selflessness?

      Are there other essential ingredients?

    25. It seems like Puppy Basket is a lot kinder than I am. I do not try to be selfless, I try to be nice. I'm pretty egoist, and my ego is more than just overinflated.

      If I could describe seeing someone as an object, I would put it as want they want doesn't matter. When you hear about a friend or relative who is sick, the first thing that comes to mind isn't "I wonder if there doing okay... Are they hurting that much" it's more along the lines of "Oh... okay." My parents told me that one of my aunts cancer was getting worse and that she had approximately three weeks to live. My responsr was "Oh... okay" as matter factly as if they told me we're out of ice cream (actually even less, I would actually feel bad if there was no ice cream.

      So all in all, it's not like when I walk in the street and see someone walking I actually see a vase or a pot. I see someone but the amount of interest I put into that person is similar to the amount of interest I would give to a parked bicycle.

      Pup Bask,

      You're totally right, people need to get new terms for their feelings. People oversimplify the meaning of emotions. When the same word is used to describe a long range of feelings, in the end it means nothing, for example the word "love". People seem to love everything from accessory, to food, and to their grandmother. The meaning of emotions have becomd blurred along the years. By simplifying and over using the name of a feeling, the true sense of the word disappears, which makes them ambiguous and complicates the meaning of sentences.

    26. Tii,

      Your description of your reaction to hearing about a relative's cancer, is not so different than mine most times. I have to put an effort into appearing to have an emotion in that kind of situation. I have to make an effort to empathize and express feelings, and when I do so, then I actually start to feel them to some degree. So we are not completely different specimens of the human species. My focus tends to go first to what can I do about the situation. Is she being properly cared for, getting the best medical treatment...

      I do not know what love means as an emotion.

      "If I could describe seeing someone as an object, I would put it as want they want doesn't matter."

      Ok, this is a really good starting point. What does it mean to matter? Surely if one is manipulating someone, then what they want and/or feel, does matter. Isn't it a matter of what the "end-goal" is too?

    27. Newbie,

      The thing is "What can I do about it?" doesn't really come to mind either. She's going to die, and that's that. Whether she dies tomorrow or today doesn't make a difference to me. One thought that came to mind though was to bring her marijuana tea but, it wasn't so much to make her feel better (or possibly heal) as it was to find out whether or not marijuana can be beneficial to people with cancer.

      I myself find nothing wrong with dying. Of course I will not attempt suicide or precipitate my death, but if someone told me right now that I would die when the sun sets tomorrow I wouldn't mind. I'd probably just buy a ton of weed, ice cream, cotton candy, and other sweets, and die consuming them while watching the sunset. So, empathize with someone feeling afraid, or sad about dying.

      What I think it means to matter, is feeling that something is important enough for me to give some of my time to it. I have to almost instinctively offer it some thoughts and/or act upon it.

  7. Pffft.. why would it matter which mental illness suffers the most hate? All suffer hate. Personally I'm not about helping others who do not help themselves. I only associate with those who I feel at "home" with. Genuine folks & people who love life. Who are not afraid of hard work and not out to cause harm. You can be rich or poor. If you love life & love others.. it shows. I despise self wallowing pity. People that are mentally ill? there are all kinds. It sounds like a description of a self righteous person. Water seeks to its own level.

    1. Word! Preach brother! Amen!

    2. Word? Is that love or hate? I think it is the former... Or is it something else altogether?

    3. Word is like saying "Right on" or "That's right". But like 90s cool way of saying it. Not many people used them anymore. We have the whole Cosby collection at home because my younger sibling loves it. Cosby's character uses that to try and be cool with his kids and their friends. I sorta picked it up to try and be funny wiyh my sis and it just stuck.

    4. Tii, you are an old soul. One if my sons is an old soul. Nothing wrong with that. Just unusual and interesting.
      You seem fond of your sister. Can you explain what she means to you and what you think about her?

    5. Though she isn't a sociopath (she's still young so I suppose there's still time for it to develop), she picks up a lot of my personality traits. It's become a lot harder for people to get her pumped up about anything that doesn't directly affect her, and responds to many situations the same way I would. Only thing is even though she usually has that cool headed apathetic personality she still gets very emotional at times. I guess she looks up to me, so she emulates most of my personamity, which I find pretty amusing. I guess I see us as a me and mini me duo. Though I don't try to get her to abandon her emotions, I do try to teach her to keep them in check and control them so that she can keep a clear head no matter the situation, and I try to get her to realize that words are words and she shouldn't put too much thoughts to othersnegative criticisms or insults. All in all I guess she's my Mini Me and apprentice.

  8. I think people with mental illness or disabilities have the hardest time. Even those with personality disorders.
    I am all for helping people but I think we should educate ourselves about mental illness and mental disabilities.
    Some definitely need help and meds. Some are violent. We need to be mindful of these people but also of safety issues and ourselves.
    I have a neighbor who constantly helps, the homeless and mentally ill and drug addicts.

    It is fine to so so, but then he complains when he gets swindles or mistreated. I am a single Mom and I appreciate his empathy, but not at a risk to the safety of myself, my home or my kids. The people he "helps" hang around my house and go through my trash, yard, etc.
    There is a fine line between helping and putting yourself at risk.

  9. consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

  10. People who live in developed countries complain too much about their lives without knowing how simple their problems are compared to people who live in poor third world countries in Africa and South America.
    I have lived for a year doing missionary mission for my Church in África and all i can say is those people live in hell. Its not a mere coincidence that the rate of sociopaths in third world countries is much bigger, with those dictatorships and hardships they have in those countries they become the perfect region for sociopathic breeding.
    Life has taught those people that they need to be "smart" or else nobody cares about their welfare.
    Why do you think violence greediness and selfishness happens so much in those places?
    Its because opportunities there are so rare that when one appears, no matter how small, those poor people hold it with a tight grip they would kill to get to the top of their Society!!!

    Be grateful that you were born in a developed country, because chances are that you already won in the lottery of life.

    1. Being born in a developed country doesnt guarantee a life without issues or illness.
      I was born in Iceland one of the most educated and safe countries in the earth and with one of the highest quality of life rate. Still I grew up in an unstable family were my father was a narcissistic and didnt care about watching and supporting his sons and my mother was a submissive person who just accepted his narcissistic and self destructive tendencies. Because i grew up in an evironment like this i didnt had the chance to develop a lot of empathy or emptional inteligence this made me have some sociopathic traits like no remorse and not really "feeling: like normal empaths do.
      What i want to show you is that even if you are born in a developed country you still have to have the luck of growing in a normal functional and supportive family in order to grow up without sociopathic traits or other personality disorders related to it.

    2. "We were taught, all of us, that if we were dissatisfied, it was our
      fault, or the fault of those closest to us. We were built wrong, somehow.
      We had failed to adjust. If we showed any sort of distress, we probably
      needed to be medicated or incarcerated... There are supposed to be no structural problems, just individual maladaptation"

      Unspeakable things: sex lies and revolution

  11. You don't need some elaborate justification for your beliefs. Whatever is in your best interest, or most convenient at the time is sufficient. When I'm driving, those stupid pedestrians need to watch out! When I'm walking my dog, those damn drivers need to slow down in my neighborhood! If you are expecting consistency from me, get ready for disappointment. Is that hypocritical? Who cares?

  12. Wisom of the socios: hollow men have rhinoceros-thick skin. Whats being said just drops off like water on geese (unless its personal insults). They seriously do not care about others views, in matters where their minds have been set. "Ba-ba-ba" sounds from a mouth cavity is not something a socio make much of, if its just subjective opinions (clever ones respect/adjust to facts, thats something else)..

  13. "The blood system is naturally linked to the heart, and subject to such conditions as hypertnsion, anemia, and leukemia. What these three have in comon is that they are associated with beliefs in weakness, incompetence, and helplessness, plus a lot of anger at being treated that way. Self-directed angr at not being able to control things bttr also may be includd. Thse people are usually very manipulative and vry rsentful at bing manipulated. Leukemia in particular often appears shortly aftr a significant loss of a parent or career position, acocompanied by intense feelings of frustration from not bing able to do anything about it. People with these conditions generally are unable to express their emotions easily. If they could, it would ease the tension considerably.

  14. You folks are complete bat shit insane. Do you understand the meaning of pathology ?
    Do you understand what having some sense or sensibility feels like ? Your kind spins elaborate rationale that seems logical only to you. Not a single sentence ever contains a shred of intelligence.
    You know why you are doomed ? Because you guys are the personification of cowardice. The higher your cowardice, the deeper your insanity. Even the mildest sociopath is so retarded, he/she would have interfered with an empath's moral courage at sometime, which the empath will come to deeply regret being misstepped by this coward. Your guys complete absence of courage is utterly and absolutely revolting. Grow some balls, you coward race. Yuk. But that's probably being ironic. Rant over. But it's an honest rant.

    1. Damn I totally feel shamed in to behaving now :/

    2. "Men of fixed convictions do not count when it comes to determining what is fundamental in values and lack of values. Men of convictions are prisoners. They do not see far enough, they do not see what is below them: whereas a man who would talk to any purpose about value and non-value must be able to see five hundred convictions beneath him—and behind him… A mind that aspires to great things, and that wills the means thereto, is necessarily sceptical. Freedom from any sort of conviction belongs to strength, and to an independent point of view… That grand passion which is at once the foundation and the power of a sceptic's existence, and is both more enlightened and more despotic than he is himself, drafts the whole of his intellect into its service; it makes him unscrupulous; it gives him courage to employ unholy means; under certain circumstances it does not begrudge him even convictions. "- Friedrich Nietizsche.

      I guess people despise us because we are the the unmoldable minds who arent afraid of telling or finding the truth by using real logic and reason even if it means using "unscrupulous" meanings for achieving our goals. Most people are too brainwashed with their ideologies and convictions to see deep enough that we are "the independent free men of the world"! We can get anything we want because we arent afraid of challenging the mainstream ideologies and doctrines.

    3. To Anon @ 246 PM.

      You quote a passage about great empaths and try to apply it to psychopaths? You still don't seem to understand what pathology means. You probably never will. Can I tell an open secret? You do not understand a single word in the way we mean it. You may understand in a strange and fakely approximate way but never as we mean it. By the way passion means an ability to experience things to their core. You do not touch anything. Try getting the meaning of a single thing: a bird, table, your breakfast, your mom or just a word. If you get it, you are on the way of being cured of your psychopathy. That is greatness. To come out of the depths of darkness. To climb out of the pits of hell. When you can manage a flicker of emotion, an instant of joy, of movement in your being, I will agree to your greatness. Until then, you are just a decease. Telling the truth? Are you aware you are called "the people of lie"?

    4. Can't exactly show courage when there's nothing to fear. Without fear to stop you, all that is left to do is act. Without remorse to stop you the next time, all that is left to do is act again. But being so retarted, isn't it funny that most empaths don't see us coming? Isn't it hilarious how they fall for our tricks? I find it very amusing that we usually stand above you on the social/economic ladder. You guys as the superior kind must be full of love and compassion to allow us retards to step over you and take the positions above you. How nice must you be to pretend that you don't see through our tricks, and allow yourselves to fall for them. Such saints for allowing us idiots to take the best positions, while you yourselves remain at the bottom. I'm sure that this little rant of your wasn't only a mean to exempt yourself from any blame, and a way to vent your anger out because of your own shortcomings and lack of skill and potential. After all a superior kind such as yours couldn't stoop as low as to blame others for your own failure and blindness. Well then, on behalf of all those retards whom you guys have kindly help by letting them climb higher than you on the social/economic ladder,
      THANK YOU ^_^

    5. Btw Anon 4:06,
      You are aware that sociopaths can feel joy and pleasure right?

    6. Tii 4:53 is right.
      If Our mental illness is so bad because we cant really "feel" love or compassion. Why we find ourselves always in better positions, than the so called normal empaths, in the social pyramid?
      For me every personality disorder has its pros and cons and not really "feel" is not one of the weaknesses of sociopahty but a strength.
      We have a "shield" that protect us from getting irritated, bullied, intimidated or getting any bad influence.This makes our Egos(if we have one) much stronger than normal empaths. This allows to achieve and things that normal empaths wouldnt be able to get or do all the steps in order to have, since they would lose hope during the process because they are vulnerable to ideologies and what other people say.

      For me there are 2 types of sociopaths:

      The Dumb ones (who like you said) dont learn how to live by the society rules and harm people and their communities because they dont learn how to control their impulses and end up in prison. This kind i agree with you they are coward and inferior.

      But there is also another kind of sociopthats the Smart ones who learns how to play by society rules and cope with living in a civilization with rules. Those end up becoming leaders like presidents,bosses,ceos,generals and other top positions in the social pyramid.Those learned to use their disorder traits to their advantage and most of the time are making key decisions to the future of humanity, while you "normal" empath live a mediocre life having to serve us. If you are so superior with your empathiness and love why we, the smart ones of our kind of course, end up having a better life full of pleasures and people in our kness, while you obey us?

    7. Well let's also not forget that some empaths are also boss and such, while some sociopaths work underthem. It's a two way streets, let's use both sides ^_^

    8. "You may understand in a strange and fakely approximate way but never as we mean it. By the way passion means an ability to experience things to their core."

      I guess a self-identified empath wrote this, since it refers to being cured of psychopathy -- which is incurable.

      I can see also how it could be the other way. I can see how a psychopath might find the absence of the ability of empaths to empathize or relate to their point of view strange...

    9. Anon 12:13 pm.
      When you say they are called "the people of lie". I know who they are... the politicians controling our nation they are ruining what our ancestors built! Our beautiful land and people!!!

    10. people change their behaviors when they see that it benefits them to change, and not because people around them don’t approve of them or what they do.
      My view is that this applies to anyone regardless of their personality type.

    11. Ah, dear ranting Anon, you brought so much amusement into an otherwise serious day. "We don't understand pathology?" We should just change ourselves magically and start feeling so we can be like you? You do understand that this is a genetic and physical thing for us do you not? We simply do not have the same Here yah go enlighten yourself

      Finished reading? That is how a "normal" animal like you functions. For a sociopath we don't get that same reward or we get diminished reward for learned behaviors. You vaunted "emotions" are nothing more than an animal physical response to stimuli. Yet you think this makes you more advanced than a sociopath. We are free of this. Our decisions are our own. People describe us as robots and yet who is the real robot? The one who is a slave to the illusion that they control themselves or the ones who actually do? We are probably slaves to other things just to be fair :)

      I have read "People of the Lie". excellent book but most of the people described within lay more on the Narcissist diagnosis than the socio/psychopathy spectrum. Did you buy into the possession diagnosis? I am actually curious. The author believed, for those of you who have not read the book, that people who behaved in the manner we do were actually possessed by demons. Which would account for Anon's spewing of bile.

    12. As an empath with some aspie tendencies, I can say that I agree with everything you write.

      The point is that anyone can be a robot, if they are a slave to anything -- their emotions, their limited ability to control impulses, a fixed, rigid set of thought process that prevent adaptation.

      but I understand that socios also feel emotions. I have read statements that look like anger {they should all be exterminated, and many more also from empaths and socios}. Anger is an emotion.

      A feeling of isolation or alienation is also an emotion.

      There are some kind of emotions I guess associated with a sense of inner peace.

      Happiness is an emotion, although I can't say for myself what happiness is.

      There are tons of neurotransmitters and hormones that rush through just about everyone at times. I do not subscribe to the belief that socios are emotionless beings.

      People who are prone to depression experience more sadness for instance than others. Our emotional complexion varies alot from one person to another. I'd really like to understand what emotions socio type people feel and what is their complexion.

      For instance, I used to feel angry quite often - even rage sometimes. Now not so much. I am prone to depression to the extent that I do not know what happiness is these days. I get a feeling of contentment if I feel I am making a positive contribution to society. I feel safe.

      I wonder if this feeling of safety is important? Are socios really fearless or rather are they less prone to experience fear in certain situations, but not in others?

      And finally, can you offer a glimpse into your emotional state when you wrote that last message: People of the lie meet people of the truth.

  15. I love to hear stories from deeply religious environments in the US where christian religion really means something. In northern europé "a psychopathic confession" means nothing; such individual will not become outcast or even taken seriously, it will just be considered some silly teenage "emo thing"! In england its being said that, even to this day, it can be "unhealthy" for individuals to claim to be withches in certain rural parts. Is it the same with psychopathy, in the southern US states..?

  16. TII.. let the arrogance keep blinding it when socio's do that. I laugh inside.

    1. Let the ignorance play you ^_^

    2. haha.. Anon at 2:46 pm. You can't waste your breath when a socio has no remorse. When you find out someone is a socio you poison their environment as much as possible. NO need to talk something out with them. You play their game. Think ahead. Get them at every turn. Educate others .. if you read these posts it reeks of "oh, look we cannot get out of jail if we are socio" etc etc.. yet talking out of both sides of their mouth talking about how they will take & use you. listen, watch & learn how to deal with these types of people. They are not that smart.. their arrogance is their stumbling block and I lay that stumbling block down for them to trip on.

    3. Just curious Anon. Do get a visceral thrill when you damage a perceived sociopath? Does it make you happy to outsmart one? Do you get all warm and fuzzy getting revenge? Now you are getting to understand us! Welcome to the socio tribe Anon.

  17. "As odd as it might seem, most aggressive personalities don’t have hurting people as their primary agenda. Rather, what they seek primarily is to have their way, including getting what they want from people. Now, make no mistake, they certainly have no problem trampling over others and their rights to get what they want, but their main objective is securing what they desire, not inflicting injury. "


    1. Totally agree Newbie. one of the most freeing things I ever learned is that "People are not doing it to you, they are just doing it." I think one of the things that disturbs people so much about the idea of the sociopath is that we have no actual investment in the people we harm. We picked them either at random or because they seemed like an easy target or they have something we want. It was in no way personal. That seems to be the most disturbing thing to them. We wound the ego by not caring about them.

      The same is true for most people who are on the normative scale though who harm others. You had something they wanted or were just convenient to their rage. This happens to people in the service industry all the time. People having a frustrating day or life will take it out on a clerk who has done nothing wrong since the clerk can't retaliate.

      Even if people target others specifically for emotional abuse they are probably driven by something totally unrelated on subconscious personal level. Get used to being a handy target folks. When you stop taking it personally and just accept that people are people and usually all kinda fucked up you can just shrug it off.

      Memorize this. "They are not doing it to me, they are just doing it."

    2. Puppy Basket,

      So good, so sweet, so kind. Indeed, I learned in cognitive behavior therapy to detach myself, to some degree, from what other people are doing -- and that mantra "they are not doing it to me, they are just doing it" has been so helpful, but I still struggle with it at times.

      I am not so disturbed by the idea that the sociopath has no actual investment in the people they harm, though. As you say, empaths can also have no investment when they harm others. The problem is that when a person seeking an intimate relationship sneaks into your life, it is hard to accept that this intimate had no emotional investment in you, even in that case.

      It isn't simply a wound to the ego, although that is a major factor. It is simply the incomprehensibility of that fact.

      A person in that situation feels cheated and betrayed. Can I ask, have you ever felt cheated and/or betrayed by the existence of a fact of nature that you are not able to get a grip on. That can throw a person into an existential crisis, and make them rethink the world around them, which is part of healing too.

      We wound the ego by not caring about them.

  18. Some funny reading on here. What is the point of discussion based on psycho/socio/empath when one is more often than not a product of abuse and the other genetic. Perhaps more focus on logic and reason and the concept of happiness and its application on an individual basis would off more use?

    Reads more like a pissing contest of the PDs which is quite hilarious.

    1. I agree with the sentiment of Anon12:53. Discussions of whether empaths are better or worse than socios misses the point. Scolding, berating, or trying to induce shame seems worse than pointless in a forum engaging socios. But it will go on anyway and one can learn things about human behavior, or laugh -- what have you.

      Who is better or worse in function depends on the circumstances -- on the details. Shame, for instance, can be a useful emotion when it focuses the person to look carefully at their own behavior, their attitudes, and see that it is in their own best interest to change.

      For socios who don't feel shame or remorse, all this means is that they don't have this emotion to guide them to change in a way that serves their own self-interest. Such people do not learn from negative feedback to the extent others do.

      On the other hand, shame can be a crippling emotion that prevents people from changing in ways that benefit their own self-interest.

      I define self-interest broadly here. I don't want to write an essay about it though.

      Some people are looking for happiness as their main goal, others for power, others for wisdom, or the betterment of the world. I think that the concept of self-interest is complex.

    2. Well stated dots. Insightful.

    3. Well put dots. I do find myself playing with trolls a tad too often. One of my last vices I am afraid. I would actually be happy for you to expand on your ideas and thoughts about how each of us functions differently in different circumstances. I had not considered it before more deeply than a passing thought. Funerals for instance. I can fake tears if I try hard enough but the absurdity of funerals sometimes causes me to stifle laughter. My husband is even worse and will crack up at them. I can see where in this instance being a norm would be easier. Well except for the being sad part. I imagine funerals are horrible experiences for them for other reasons.

    4. Puppy Basket,

      There's much to learn from the trolls and the responses to them here too. They illustrate hateful parts of the world as it really is and how to deal with hate, whilst respecting oneself. If responses to the trolls also were written in a state where the responder is actually experiencing emotions, then describing those emotions (or their absence) could be helpful too. In this cacophony we can see more truth.

      About how each of us functions differently in different circumstances. That's great point. I'll have to think about how to organize my thoughts on that.

      It seems to me that self-acceptance is important to function and well-being for all personality types, socios or empaths or any other type.

  19. Red is the "sociopathic" color. The best song about recovering from
    a relationship with a sociopath is "Red Rubber Ball," by Cyrkle. It was
    written by Paul Simon of Simon and Garfunkel fame.
    The best description of a female sociopath is the "Ruby Tuesday" by the
    Rolling Stones.

    1. Red means different things to different people. I would think of Ice Blue as being a sociopathic colour.

    2. Roses are red, violets are blue. Sugar is sweet and so are you.

    3. Move on over buddy, she's my pretty rose petal.

  20. it's not always a product of abuse. I've been keen to seeing these types of people and I like to stand in their way. It's quite funny when they get flustered in not getting what they want. the best thing is to "educate" others when you spot them.

  21. This whole thread & blog post was enlightening to me. So many people make valid points ....while everything is open to interpretation and experience.
    I put it on audio talk on my phone. And I couldn't help but nod my head up and down saying YES to many of you commenter's.

    Thanks for my entertainment while driving.

  22. I need your opinion on something. These events happened in the
    late 1970's early 80's.
    I was a social outcast/rejected freak in H.S. I did my best to avoid social
    interaction and "normal" responsiblites. The original "creep."
    My employment prospects weren't very good because of these traits,
    so upon graduation from H.S. I was enrolled in a special program for the
    physically and mentally handicapped. It was a very bleak enviorment
    because of the clientel. Some had physical disabilities, some were
    Paranoid Sictusfrenics barely under control through medication. One
    woman, who had worked as a secutary before her breakdown, had a
    harsh gigle she could barely supress.
    When I arrived I was assigned a rehabilition worker. She was a young
    woman, who had the perfect model's body. She wore these tight
    hip hugging blue jeans that seemed sewn on her. I was VERY aroused.
    She sat across from me and took my information. I had never been this
    close to an attractive woman before. The way she was dressed didn't
    help matters. It spurred my fantasies. I imagined her lips on...., Well, you
    get it. I told her that I was getting excited and she made a face and
    heaved a sigh, as if to say, "Oh, here we go again."
    She seemed a sincer enough woman. She took her job seriously but I
    just couldn't see her normally.
    One time she was sitting at a table eating a sandwich in those jeans
    and I asked her a question. Her legs were crossed. Her body movements
    as she reacted to my question were just too arousing to me. I was
    eventually given to another worker because I couldn't concentrate. The
    combination of the bleak enviornnment and her physical appearence
    was too much....

  23. I eventually left the program and was forced to search for real
    employment. I went to the Department Of Labor.
    There was an employee there that also dressed very sexy. She was older
    then the first girl, but she was much more up front with her sexuality.
    I spoke with her on a walkway and noticed her crotch area. She had no
    underware and her dress pulled your attention to that area.
    I had to go to D.O.L. on numerios ocassions. I was often given this
    woman. She PURPOSELY behaved seductively. On one ocassion, I was
    being uncoopertive with her job suggestions and she flashed me.
    It was something out of the film "Basic Instinct." My eyes popped out
    of my head....

  24. The next day I arrived and I got on the esclator. She was ahead of me.
    She keep glancing down at me with a concerned look on her face,
    as if to say, "Oh my God, he must be after me!" "This is a sick woman,"
    I thought to myself.
    She was a sturdidly build, tall woman but her face was heavily made up.
    A few other incidents come to mind: Once, when I was speaking to her,
    a man showed up. He told her that the job she helped him find was
    going well and tried to make small talk. She seemed to like the attention.
    It seemed odd to me. Another time, I was speaking with a male worker
    and she was seated at the desk in front of me. She noticed me and said
    something to herself and got up and down numerious times. The last
    time I saw her she was leaving with a group of co-workers as I was
    entering the room. they were bantering about someone. She said, "He
    brought up sex! He put sex in the conversation!'
    I need a woman's advice: Was the first girl I spoke about NORMAL
    except for her propensity to dress in those sexy jeans? She SEEMED
    sincer and dedicated to her job. Maybe, she was the female version of
    a man who doesn't know his own strength. Nobody else was as "distracted" as me by her appearence. Though I think it flirted with
    danger in that enviornment.
    I think that the second woman-the DOL woman-was a definate HISTRIONIC. She went the extra mile in trying to provoke a response.
    She had a cushy job and wasn't about to get fired. She loved to tease.
    Am I correct?

    1. Read this article. I really enjoyed it with my morning coffee this morning. First try not to roll your eyes with the title. It explains the women "power inside." ;)

      Personally, you need to tame some of your sexual impulses in front of them. You'll find many women with tight jeans, shapely bodies that might get you aroused. The women aren't necessary doing anything wrong. It's maybe your perception of them and you need to get laid. But again, watch that you don't come on too strong. Because there picking up on something with how they're reading your expressions. Find a girl that understands you. Seriously, a friend. If not, you can run the risk of being accused of things that weren't even your intentions. Watch your behavioral responses. There's people out there that would like nothing more than to wreck your reputation. I get what your saying and I'm trying to compassionately help you.

    2. Good grief. You were, what? Eighteen years old? I'm deducing that since you stated this happened upon high school graduation.

      Of course you were horny. Most 18 year old guys are. Let's not forget that most women like attention, although most of us are selective about what kind of attention it is and from whom it's coming. I've always said the criteria for what meets that standard for stalking and sexual harassment (assuming that it doesn't become completely outrageous) lies in what the guy looks like. If he's hot, it's romantic pursuit and flirting. If he's ugly, it's stalking and harassment. I say that only slightly tongue-in-cheek.

      As a woman, my guess is that you gave off some kind of vibe that the second woman didn't like. She was perfectly comfortable with teasing you just enough to get your attention in order to reaffirm to herself that she could still elicit male attention and desire, but that's where it ended for her in your case. Knowing you were turned on by her and desired her was all she wanted. Once she got the feeling that you were a little too interested, she got worried.


    3. I remember I belonged to this church once, where the pastor of the church asked me not to dress in short skirts, even though they weren't mini skirts at all. Maybe an inch or two above the knee. And i usually wore longer skirts or dresses at church, always made sure I "dressed appropriate. " in that type of setting. He always seemed to be eyeing my tits the whole time in conversation ( which -- even asked me if I wanted to go for a swim with him when his wife wasn't around during my scruple episode. Asshole. I knew what he would do ...and I left. Problem was, I did nothing wrong, even three women from church thought I should get a breast reduction. And I never showed cleavage in a church setting. But saw the two of the women's husbands eyeing me. Haha, my husband was like Fuck Em, leave those tits alone. Those gossipy women have nothing better to do but trash other women. It was time to get out and leave for good.

    4. Superchick:

      Sounds like a typical church full of insecure gossip hens. Isn't it funny how men were expected to be the protectors of women, but were also the ones we had to hide from, lest they be too overwhelmed by lust? I guess we were supposed to dress like the Amish in order to protect the men from becoming the men they were supposed to be protecting us from. The protector becomes the predator.

      Talk about a full circle.

      But, yeah, that stuff almost always boiled down to the women, though. Their good Christian husbands just couldn't be trusted around little Jezabels with their boobs and skirts. Translation: She's got bigger boobs and better legs than me and I'm afraid my husband will notice and compare her to me. Let's see what I can do to make her so uncomfortable that she goes under they knife to get rid of those better boobs.


    5. Haha N, I couldn't of explained it better myself, your thoughts, are my thoughts exactly!! You hit the nail on the head. THANK GOD FOR FEMINISM. We needed it. Specially within some of the church setting. So much blind spiritual abuse, its revolting.

      nights X

  25. Do you have a girlfriend? Maybe it is time to experience your own sexuality.

  26. As per the final line of the writer "that tolerance is the result of hard-fought gains specific to each case"..

    many posts here do advocate for tolerance. In my case it was certainly hard-fought.
    I do not hate the disordered character I felt close to once, but I do not feel close to him anymore.

    Developing tolerance, or trying to empathize/understand/relate to does not mean that I want an intimate relationship with such a person.

    In the end it was a profound absence of 'good', rather than only the presence of 'evil' in his attempts to control me, that turned me away. I saw an empty shell. I am not saying he is an empty emotionless being. Others could see him differently.

  27. ""Developing tolerance, or trying to empathize/understand/relate to does not mean that I want an intimate relationship with such a person.

    In the end it was a profound absence of 'good', rather than only the presence of 'evil' in his attempts to control me, that turned me away. I saw an empty shell. I am not saying he is an empty emotionless being. Others could see him differently.""

    I can emphasize. They can wear different masks for different people around them. And it's a good thing that you recognized this.

    Can I ask you a question Newbie. Did your ex partner give you any silent treatment? I'm not talking about a cooling off period after differences, more of a prolonged silence?

    1. Superchick,
      I want to preface this with a quote I found on sociopath world: 'Look back into your self; get to know your self; hold on to your self.' . . ." and another article I read in NYT today "why we love what we don't understand".

      As I wrote before my biggest mistake was to not pay attention to my gut feelings early in the relationship. I was needy and wanted a relationship. Now I don't want one. I do not need anyone else in my life. I cannot be manipulated so easily from this position. That's part of veering toward a sociopathic direction that would do me a lot of good.

      To answer your question:

      Yeah, every tool at his disposal in all the manipulation tactics one can find by googling things like "manipulation disordered character" or "manipulation psychopath"... Except two.

      There was no physical violence or throwing things.

      There was no 'love-bombing' -- a term I hate and a behavior that sickens me even more if I see it.

      In either case I would have gotten out right then. Maybe he knew enough about me not to try that.

      In any case I think his biggest hook on me, besides sex and my lonliness was "“Not all ambiguity is created equal — when ambiguity is used skillfully, it can engage the reader because the reader gets to try and figure out what happened, "

      and “The game is entirely played in first-person, with players moving through the house while spooky noises (radio static, nauseating cries, unnatural beeps and blips) threaten to crush them under the weight of sheer tension. But then you reach a certain point and you’re teleported back to the entrance. ‘P.T.’ ‘loops,’ and each time it does, things get a bit … stranger.”

    2. Newbie, you can be strong without adopting the sociopathic mind set. Don't let go of your emotions and feelings, please. Just learn to understand them. My 2 cents..

    3. Hey Newbie, thanks for sharing your thoughts and part of your story with us. You seem like a women of strength and wisdom as you work out things that you've encountered. You've learnt a lot through the journey, and on your way to brighter aspects each step of the way..
      “Once you have traveled, the voyage never ends, but is played out over and over again in the quietest chambers. The mind can never break off from the journey.”
      Its a quote that I marvel in sometimes and sometimes just stay in and ponder, nighty nights, :-)

      thanks for the link. I will check it out tomorrow for sure. (why we love what we don't understand). Interesting

  28. from Twitter:
    "It is not personal. I am likeable, but not by him. It is not me, it is him. He is UNABLE to reciprocate feelings the way neurotypicals do"

    Said every person with an overinflated opinion of themselves and the need to blame everyone else to spare their fragile ego.
    Saying he is UNABLE simply because he doesn't like YOU kinda shows another possible reason he feels that way.
    It's never just him. You're not as likable as you think you are.

    1. How do you know who every person is who has an overinflated opinion of themselves? Do you?

    2. The anonymous @ 4:54 is quoting ME's twitter account.

    3. Anon@454pm, you have not been close enough to a sociopath to understand what this means yet. The sociopath cannot like in the same way we are used to. The emotional connection you feel with "regular" people, whether good or bad, is not there with a sociopath. It is "fake", most people would say. Or unusual in my mind. Some say alien... You take this emotional connection for granted until you get close to a sociopath. By close I mean daily prolonged interactions for several years.
      Can you please give yourself a name and tell why you are on this blog? What is your interest in sociopathy?.

    4. My name is Anonymous, and we are many. We are legions. We just don't bother with names. Too many to count.

  29. This blog is one big narcissitic I, me, my blowing smoke up your ass feeling fest. I do this and I do that. I am this way... honest. Fuck you who cares you moron. You are an over sefl preoccupied ripe for the ravaging fool. That's right.

    Try on this bullshit comment:

    "My angle is that they are less frightening if you take the time to understand them and don’t get freaked out by the fact that they cannot reciprocate feelings the way normal people are used to. They reciprocate using their intellect and on their own time. They can bring a new perspective, new energy, even a new “life time” "

    Yeah a "new" lifetime of your life getting even worse than it is now if you can believe it. As if the issue with sociopath/psychocraps is mainly that they express feelings differently and not anything to do with lying, destroying, sadism, "special narcissim" and evil and .... sociopathy.

    A good way to think of sociopaths is as demons if that's helpful. Not very bright demons and certainly vulneralble to the right tools but demons all the same. They will not help you with getting revenge on those that accurately saw you as immature and an idiot in ways... play the fool and lie in the gutter rotting. Can you learn from them? Yes, but not by defending them or being a friend.

    Grow up.

    1. I don't disagree that the Demon analogy does not fit me Aspie. I can understand your disenchantment with the idea of exposing yourself to socios as a general rule. I think this is probably the safest course for most people. Learning to recognize us and avoid us would be the sanest thing most people could do. Alas most people seem drawn to me like a moth to a flame before they know what I am, I am not harmless, I try to follow my moral/spiritual code but like all humans I do stumble. The problem is that when I stumble people around me go down in flames.

      One of the reasons all my closest companions are fellow socios. We really don't get all butthurt when one of us takes a bite out of another. We have rules about that though so instead of retaliating we work it out. Outside our sociocircle we have other friends and we work to keep each other in line to help and not harm them. We don't breed. I am not suggesting to norms that it is healthy to befriend us even if we are moral socios. Aspie is right. It is downright dangerous. But then so is your little game of hunting us Aspie. You have been lucky so far in the game but one misstep or miscalculation and you could be hurt or worse. Socio LIVE for revenge. Our actions constantly create scenarios where we harm people and then we get butthurt when/if they retaliate and we up the ante. So just.. be careful OK?

      You probably have yet to meet one of us that is so far off the social adaptive scale that they would go physical on you but if you keep poking the demons sooner or later you are going to poke one who has no filters in that area. They will kill you without a second thought if you threaten them. Keep that in mind.

      Something else to consider. We, like the rest of the human race, are on the sliding intelligence scale. Some of us are VERY high on the scale. You seem to be under the misinterpretation that all socios are stupid. The ones that are easy spot are the ones you are hunting. If you met me in real life you would never know. I can count on one hand the times I have been spotted. I have never been successfully outed by the spotters since my masks and actions are so far removed from what I actually am.

      Just some friendly advice.

    2. I also wish you would join the conversation in a more productive manner. Just spewing hate at us does nothing more than amuse the fuck out of us. It just makes the norms on site who are trying to understand and engage get defensive and protective of us. None of that is productive to you or anyone else.

      I am going to ask you some direct questions. What are you trying to accomplish here? What is your end game for posting on this forum? I am not asking to gain "ammo" I am really genuinely curious. Perhaps if we understand what you are looking to get out of this we could assist you in accomplishing that.

    3. Puppy Basket, that's awesome!

      "I try to follow my moral/spiritual code but like all humans I do stumble. The problem is that when I stumble people around me go down in flames." --I think I do understand so much better now, about this intent thing. It's like the difference between a man who is out of control and beats his partner, or a child who is out of control, and kicks and screams... one does more harm by virtue of his strength than the other. Is that it?

      "Socio LIVE for revenge. Our actions constantly create scenarios where we harm people and then we get butthurt when/if they retaliate and we up the ante." I understand that as a fact and you put it concisely too. Can I ask, why do socios live for revenge?

    4. Can I ask, why do socios live for revenge?
      For me it is about power and "justice" and the game and the fact that they get intertwined in my messed up little brain, My default brain setting is that everything is a game and I MUST WIN AT ANY COST. That simple really. I make a move on the game board, you make a move, if your move seems to give you more power than mine I make more moves to remove you from your position of power or to neutralize your perceived threat to my power. Relationships are a game, so the weaker you are, the stronger my position on the board.

      Then the obvious one. I need an excuse to cause harm which makes me feel more powerful. I am just defending myself or getting revenge are the lies I tell myself to excuse my crap behavior. The reason sociopaths don't feel guilt is because we are masters of justification. We think people deserve what we do to them. Some by the simple expedient of seeing the rest of the populace as sheep and themselves as wolves. Some have intricate "logical" constructs as to why their victims are deserving of pain. Some just think they are intellectually superior so survival of the fittest entitles us to take what we want. I have personally used all of these rationalizations at one point or another.

      The bottom line? We like to hurt and if we frame it as revenge it is justified. From what I have seen most of us grew up in families that had this as a dynamic. One family member injures another and the injured party retaliates and then it becomes a big circle of pain. I know that is how mine worked. You pass the pain back and forth until a new greater injury results and then back on the hamster wheel for more fun.

      Breaking the cycle requires quite a bit of work. It is the most freeing thing a sociopath can do for themselves in my opinion though.

    5. It's like the difference between a man who is out of control and beats his partner, or a child who is out of control, and kicks and screams... one does more harm by virtue of his strength than the other. Is that it?

      Kind of. They both mean to do damage but the child probably does not have the same degree of malicious intent and can do less damage. The man is in fact not out of control though. Far from it. Most domestic abusers and rapists share a trait that they are more likely to do what they do when under the influence, drugs or alcohol no matter which. The thing is they KNOW this. They use it as an excuse and society actually accepts this. I have seen a few psychological studies with self reporting however where these men (did not see one on the ladies) admitted they got drunk WITH THE EXPRESS INTENTION of losing their shit. Let us look at that.

      The men only rape or beat women when they are drunk. They know that. They INTENTIONALLY get drunk to have the excuse. Then they excuse their behavior as being the result of the drinking causing them to lose control. This is one of the problems I have with the whole "losing control thing". Why I don't think it should be an excuse for bad behavior.

      If you can't control your emotional responses to other peoples behavior and you know you can't and do nothing about it then injure someone else because of it I don't see why you get to excuse it. In effect, it boils down to blaming someone else for your emotional meltdown. Which is exactly what spouse beaters do. "If she hadn't burned my pot roast I would not have gotten enraged and beaten her to death." Most people won't buy that last one.

      More people however will "buy into if she had not been flirting with another man I wouldn't have killed her." Because most people have had experience with a dishonest mate. Even more people will buy the excuse "She cheated on me". Up the ante to "I caught her in bed with another dude", even more people. If the woman was known to be a serial cheater... The crime of beating this hypothetical woman to death gets more and more "excusable" depending on how much we empathize with the attacker and how much less we empathize with the victim.

      This is why I have trouble with the sliding scale of justice that is dependent on "motives". In all the above cases the dude killed his spouse cause he was mad at her and could/would not control his emotional response. It all had to do with him. Every damn bit. He was wired for rage. The only difference in any of those scenarios is how much blame we place for HIS rage onto the victim. Just remember that in all the scenarios HE placed all the blame for his emotions onto the victim.

      You are not responsible for what goes on in my head. Your actions do not cause me to have my emotions/thoughts. Everything that I feel/think is a product of my past and my own ego. I am responsible for all of my actions. I am even responsible for my emotional reactions. If I take away your power to effect me I am in fact free. Once I learned this my life happied up quite a bit.

    6. ""I try to follow my moral/spiritual code but like all humans I do stumble. The problem is that when I stumble people around me go down in flames."

      I gave a poor example of what I was trying to get at. Yes, there are huge differences between a man and a child being violent besides strength ... I was referring to ' more harm by virtue of his strength', though.

      Can I ask instead for an explanation of how you stumble and what that quote at the top here means?

    7. I am not going to post stumble examples on the internet. Just a personal safety thing. I still rationalize bad behavior I can admit that. I still practice some questionable behaviors if I don't believe in the reason society says they are "bad". I will attack trolls on the internet sometimes. I do the minimum in some areas that I should be more proactive in. I will, without qualms, take down another toxic if it is requested of me. I will destroy them to the extent that they harmed another/others and call it willful karma. I still lie on occasion about stuff. I usually correct myself right after with the admission that that was actually a lie though. Do this enough times and you start being more truthful :( Just to save on people being made uncomfortable by it.) I lie to husband more than anyone else but he lies to me too and we kind of expect it and don't get all blamey about it so that is cool. I figure it evens out since we are also more honest with each other than anyone else. Is that weird? That is weird right?

  30. Aspie,

    When you use the words "I" and "you" who are you referring to?

  31. I'm referring to the commenters.

    1. All of them or only some? Which ones?

    2. How about less questions and just go with it? Who do you think I am talking aoout? Many, a few, some, myself? How about you? Just go with it man. The actual answer to your question is obvious.

    3. @ Anon 6:38 Which ones? Why? So you can let us know how much more of a superior human being you are by pointing out these certain individuals. Get some class.

    4. Would you agree to the statement "All white Americans are fat ass, incestuous rednecks that do nothing, but smoke crack, beat on their wives, and eat McDonalds when they aren't working on corn fields while riding on their big green tractor and listening to country songs." If your answer is no than I guess that you are smart enough to notice that the part doesn't signify the whole. If your answer is yes, you're an idiot.

    5. aspie, interesting. Are you really an aspie? One of my close friend's son is an aspersers, an my own son was a friend of his for quite some time. So I respect their vey "cut throat" point of view and judgment. Please explain your anger other than qualifying sociopaths as demons.

    6. Anonymous@6:52 PM
      Just out of curiousity, are you more on the empath or socio side of things?
      An empath/aspie speaking.

    7. Roar! No one messes with me. Seriously thou on neither side. I just smell bullshit. And when bullshit roars it's ugly head, I stomp it quick.

    8. I really hate labels. There is a person behind the label, always. But it is a shortcut we need to use here on this blog, to begin to understand a basis of where each of us is coming from, what they think of themselves, what they identify with and what they believe.
      Dev, Tii, basket of puppies (where did she go?), Hieronymous Bot, Bob, all identify themselves as being on the sociopathic scale. Not sure where super chick fits, but she is up lifting. Dr ginger, well she is the link. And there are the super empaths. June, Dots, and of course MachiavellianEmpath.
      I have stopped reading most anonymous comments. If people are that uncertain about what they believe in that they cannot even give themselves a temporary name, what is the purpose of listening to them? Grow a pair. This blog is not for people who want to remain perpetual victims. Btw, newbie, I believe you are on your way to becoming a strong person. A bit fragile right now, but who would not be?

    9. Anonymous@7:45 PM Why do you think that asking that question is BS? It might not have been effective in getting clarity, but why do you think it's a game?

    10. Thanks OldAndWise :)

      I have no idea what is going on with this thread from aspie. I have been angry at times, a few times extremely so. I tend not to hold onto anger because I find it is in the long run self-destructive.

      I found this quote from ME.

      "Today I've made a new landmark in my personal growth. I won't succumb to desperation and stubbornness. I will succumb to adaptation".

      BTW about labels -- what about you? Maybe I missed it, or my aspie side is preventing me from getting a grip. On the other hand, I can see how the ambiguity can be helpful.

    11. Anonymous 7:55 not so much of a game for me. Aspie's comments, "were quote unquote , so nicely said," I was trying to stop some of the shame bashing from continuing on thereafter. Many people just follow the critic. No pun intended. Cheers.

    12. I'd like to 2nd OldAndWise suggestion to grow some balls. This is not kindergarden folks.

      I also hate labels, but the world views are so different that there is no way to avoid using them at times -- especially when no one knows who you are, or you are posting as anonymous. A consistent stream of posts by a named author is much more credible.

      As I wrote before about the Anon June and I had a back and forth on, there are some people on here who might come across to you as being more empath, but they are really more sociopath. The opposite is also true most likely. That isn't necessarily because they are nefarious devils. They may have all kinds of reasons.

      So all you anons, if you really want to make a point, get a name.

    13. Great Balls Of FireAugust 21, 2014 at 2:35 AM

      Point taken. Too many anonymous comments, but I am only one, the others anonymous commenter's are other random people. May my courage and devotion become a shining example to the people of the Sociopath World Empire." I KNIGHT THEE.

    14. Great balls of fire, you are funny! I love the name. I wish i had thought of it myself!! Please stay on. We need comic relief here, alongside the serious discussions and the even more serious attacks!

    15. I was a complete hypocrite when I 2nd'd OldAndWise motion to limit Anon posts unless it is necessary. Lots of cowards. Always will be, no matter empath, socio, aspie. We can all be cowards.

      Slither in secrecy no more!

  32. What is obvious to you is not obvious to me. I hope you can appreciate that I could say this an not be stupid or playing games.

    We are all pretty frank here, most times. Some are just playing games. To get what you are saying, I'd like to see an example or two.

  33. OldAndWise,

    I've started to look through your previous posts, because I find them interesting and I get insight from a unique point of view, and can start to form a mental picture of the various personalities here.

    I had the following thought pop up, largely based on my recent experiences with a psychopathic compulsive liar who could invent an entire life history.

    I could imagine that you are a pro-social pure psychopath who has invented a history of a life as an uber-empath woman, who has or had a 'friend' who was a sociopath.

    If that's so, then I think this is fabulous! Please continue!!


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