Thursday, August 28, 2014

Change and pure evil

A reader sent me this article in the Scientific Article about evil and about people who have a belief that some things are pure evil (70% responded as such in a recent study). All of it's worth reading, but let me include the essential part of the argument:

Evil has been defined as taking pleasure in the intentional inflicting of harm on innocent others, and ever since World War II social psychologists have been fascinated by the topic. Many of the formative thinkers in the field — Kurt Lewin, Stanley Milgram , Solomon Asch — were inspired by their experiences with, and observations of, what appeared to most people at the time to be the indisputable incarnation of pure evil. But what many saw as a clear demonstration of unredeemable and deep-seated malice, these researchers interpreted as more, in the words of Hannah Arendt, banal. From Milgram’s famous studies of obedience to Zimbardo’s prison study, psychologists have argued for the roots of evil actions in quite ordinary psychological causes. This grounding of evil in ordinary, as opposed to extraordinary, phenomena have led some to describe the notion of “pure evil” as a myth. A misguided understanding of human nature deriving both from specific socio-cultural traditions as well as a general tendency to understand others’ behavior as a product solely of their essence, their soul, as opposed to a more complicated combination of environmental and individual forces.

The issue of whether “pure evil” exists, however, is separate from what happens to our judgments and our behavior when we believe in its existence. It is this question to which several researchers have recently begun to turn. How can we measure people’s belief in pure evil (BPE) and what consequences does such a belief have on our responses to wrong-doers?

According to this research, one of the central features of BPE is evil’s perceived immutability. Evil people are born evil – they cannot change. Two judgments follow from this perspective: 1) evil people cannot be rehabilitated, and 2) the eradication of evil requires only the eradication of all the evil people. Following this logic, the researchers tested the hypothesis that there would be a relationship between BPE and the desire to aggress towards and punish wrong-doers.

Researchers have found support for this hypothesis across several papers containing multiple studies, and employing diverse methodologies. BPE predicts such effects as: harsher punishments for crimes (e.g. murder, assault, theft), stronger reported support for the death penalty, and decreased support for criminal rehabilitation. Follow-up studies corroborate these findings, showing that BPE also predicts the degree to which participants perceive the world to be dangerous and vile, the perceived need for preemptive military aggression to solve conflicts, and reported support for torture.

Regardless of whether the devil actually exists, belief in the power of human evil seems to have significant and important consequences for how we approach solving problems of real-world wrongdoing. When we see people’s antisocial behavior as the product of an enduring and powerful malice, we see few options beyond a comprehensive and immediate assault on the perpetrators. They cannot be helped, and any attempts to do so would be a waste of time and resources.

But if we accept the message from decades of social psychological research, that at least some instances of violence and malice are not the result of “pure evil” — that otherwise decent individuals can, under certain circumstances, be compelled to commit horrible acts, even atrocities — then the results of these studies serve as an important cautionary tale. The longer we cling to strong beliefs about the existence of pure evil, the more aggressive and antisocial we become.  And we may be aggressing towards individuals who are, in fact, “redeemable.”  Individuals who are not intrinsically and immutably motivated by the desire to intentionally cause harm to others. That may be the greatest trick the devil has ever pulled.

Until recently, most researchers believed that sociopathy is not treatable (see some of the articles on treatment at this site hosted by the Society for the Scientific Study of Psychopathy). In fact, when you read some of the articles or see interviews with particularly some of the earlier scientific researchers involved with sociopaths (Hare?), it seems pretty clear that some of them have a belief in pure evil, so it's easy to see how sociopaths got labeled "irredeemable" initially.

The possibility of treatment and change has been one that I've been thinking a lot about, now that I (through therapy and the process of writing and promoting the book) finally feel like I have come to terms with myself in a way that both acknowledges and accepts my sociopathic tendencies, while not allowing them to hamper or restrict the way that I want to live my life. Less and less does my identity center around being sociopathic. I may never be normal, but I am forming a sense of self and learning how to identify and experience my emotions in a way that I never thought would be possible even a year ago. Because I still feel like I am in transition, I've been hesitant to speak too much about it or about anything related to sociopathy. But it does sort of bother me that part of that hesitancy is the concern that people will not receive the news well -- that I will be thought of as a sell-out by other sociopathically minded individuals or that I will be further derided as delusional or a fraud for having ever understood the term "sociopath" to describe me. This is too bad. I wish it were possible for us to believe that someone might have been a validly diagnosed sociopath but still was able to make lasting changes, possibly to the point where she could no longer be diagnosed as such anymore. I have my own personal reasons/biases for wanting to believe that story, but I also think in general it's one that we should try to believe in because it is one of hope and redemption instead of hopeless submission either to the evil inside us or to the evil outside us. But I'm not sure that's where we're at right now, unfortunately. 


  1. If someone went into therapy and started shedding their sociopathic tendencies, why would they care what other sociopaths think of them? Is being able to care what other sociopaths think mean they're truly changing and not caring mean the changes are shallow and not lasting?

    1. I think Me would have to answer this one herself. Socially positioned Sociopaths seem to have a lot invested in how they are perceived by others so it would follow that as a "community leader" she might be worried about that. She could be changing to the point where she considers the good of other's before her own needs. That was an especially hard step for me being as ego driven as I am. She would need to answer this on her own though.

    2. Damaged, that 'no win situation' you describe is imposed upon anyone who is revolutionary, and upon many other more common beings as well -- those who challenge society to change in a fundamental way how anyone thinks and to 'keep people in their place" -- an example of this is what you wrote:

      "Is being able to care what other sociopaths think mean they're truly changing and not caring mean the changes are shallow and not lasting?"

      I'm not sure that starting to care what others think is the beginning or the end of the development of sociopathic mindsets toward pro-social behavior, but it is important, I guess, to be able to care what anyone thinks...

      But if the person is honest on that question then 1: yes they are truly changing and 2: it is not shallow at the time. It seems to me that this is a huge step but not the end of the story.

  2. "But what many saw as a clear demonstration of unredeemable and deep-seated malice, these researchers interpreted as more, in the words of Hannah Arendt, banal."

    banal = uninteresting?

  3. I admit to not being entirely sure why your identity at any point centred around your personality disorder, but that might just be me. If you think you're making these changes, and you're happy with your life changing as it is, well, good for you, all the best, etc. Personally, I believe that evil, especially pure evil, is a construct of authority trying to control people with vague threats about the fate of a supposed immortal soul. Laws, I've found, with genuine real-world consequences, work better. Redemption from a social construct is difficult for me. And now, cue the religious outrage-

  4. "Evil" can't be eliminated in Western democratic societies because:

    1) There is no uniform concesis on what "evil" is. Definitions of "evil"
    change over time.

    2) People cannot be compelled to "behave" themselves unless you
    impose a dictatorial society. Can you place a guard in every home
    or a "telescreen" like an Orwellian dictatorship in EVERY home?

    3) People need to break "eithical laws" to obtain power, and to gain
    profit in the Capitalist system. "Nice Guys finish last." There was a time
    in this country's history, when the tenticles of "orginazed" crime were
    so vast they could place "bought" President's in power.

    4) People look the other way. It's the iron fist in velvet glove theory.
    People who threaten the power structure have commited "suicide."

    5) The only measure of social encouragement for self restraint is:
    The Church (obsclete) The Media (Politically swayed to the left or
    right) Schools: (Politically Correct indoctrination centers) or law
    enforcement. (Very often "compromised" and unfair.

    6) How long we survive, and our manner of death simpily comes down
    to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. ( Google "Colleen Ritzer

  5. "that I will be thought of as a sell-out by other sociopathically minded individuals"

    I like the term "sociopathically minded". I think I'm subclinical, but certainly well beyond most of the population, so I think this phrase fits well.

    Part of the condition is being uninterested in social norms. I've known plenty of people who reject certain norms (from the political to the religious, to more mundane things like fashion) only to establish their own which they regard with the same sort of vigor as those in the mainstream. This sort of thing is particularly evident in various subcultures. They aren't rejecting the concept of social norms, they're just accepting different ones (which is fine, people are comfortable with setting standards).

    I think that my particular expression of the condition enables me to be more open to others' differences. You're seeing something about yourself that you want to change and taking action to do so. If someone wants to condemn you for that, that doesn't sound very sociopathic to me. It sounds like someone deeply anxious about maintaining their built up identity by never allowing for apostasy.

    1. Ythene, my view is that you make enlightened contributions here. I use that word rarely.

      "I think that my particular expression of the condition enables me to be more open to others' differences. " Yes, I see it that way too. I would say the same for myself -- except our conditions are different.

      I saw that some folks repeated their comments on the last article once the comment section grew in length. In order to see all the comments, I had to press "load more" at the bottom -- at the end 4 times! What a hassle ME! Even then all comments might not appear and then I just started all over again at the homepage for this blog.

  6. IMO sociopaths aren't treatable, they just get smarter. They come to a realisation that being themselves isn't tolerated on a social level - so they pretend to change, sometimes even convince themselves. M.E is a perfect example for this IMO.

    1. Psychopaths are more likely to be released from prison than non-psychopaths, even though they are more likely to re-offend. It is quite predictable that a psychopath will lie about being "cured". Porter et al. (2009) Legal and Criminological Psychology, 14, 109–118.

    2. I am curious Anon. You say socio's like ME and I have "become smarter" mean what? More adaptive? We embarked on this journey of becoming more "pro-social" and therefore are just a better class of sociopath? What I am guessing you mean is that even though we have adopted a moral code and are "recovering" sociopaths we have not, at our purest core, changed in any meaningful way.

      Let me explain why that is both true and untrue. As a sociopath who has been on this recovery process for 25 years, most of which time I did not know I was a sociopath (tested) there was a spiritual awakening of sorts that did indeed change me on some level. Soul or mind or whatever you want to call it. I have a huge impetus NOT to backslip and am very careful about it.
      Some of the way I think has indeed changed through practicing things like praying for those who have "wronged me" instead of pushing them down the stairs or deconstructing them into component parts. Most sociopaths do NOT have an understanding of what they are, most have no name for it we just know we are different and dangerous. Now think about this Anon, about all you have learned on this site about sociopaths.

      We, for the most part LIKE what we are, whether that is a part of ego or learned I know not and care not, to heal is more frightening or worrisome for us than anything else we have been through and most of us have been through a lot. But we HAVE THE DESIRE to become more than our disease/disorder. Few people would make this journey and fewer still would honestly reveal like me and M.E, But, if we were just, like you said becoming more intelligent (good golly I have suddenly doubled my IQ!) which is patently impossible btw, would we not, instead of becoming more pro-social and trying to uplift our fellows JUST FIND BETTER WAYS TO SCAM?

      If there was no core spiritual/mental change a sociopath would by nature (and it could only be by nature because nothing changed but our intelligence remember?) we would HIDE BETTER, and just become MORE EFFICIENT sociopaths.

      While I cannot speak for ME my end game here is to integrate the sociopath into society and to find a workable treatment for us and hopefully, someday, remove the stigma while making sure you norms are protected from our more aggressive natures. That my entire game. Think I am getting something out of it? Maybe some karma but that is not my purpose. This could backfire on me spectacularly. Each time I "come out" to people I could be shunned or killed. If we want this to work though...someone has to be first. I am working with a friend who is getting her pysch doctorate.

      Thank you for joining the conversation Anon. Will you join the cause as well? Yes this could be an elaborate trap of some sort we have concocted, we might turn on you. That is what I face every day living openly as a sociopath. You can't know if we are treatable UNTIL SOMEONE TRIES ALL METHODS OF TREATMENT! Thank gawd Doctors did not think about this way about polio.

    3. Well stated Puppy Basket!

    4. Puppy basket. You day that to heal is more frightening or worrisome for us than anything else we have been through.
      Can you please explain?

  7. I'm not sure that in Europe, we would consider sociopaths as "evil".
    I guess we would think more about a problem that can be neurological and/or love-education failure, or extreme sufferings...
    Psychopath and Sociopath words are not helping, they are wrongly famous, and it brings only fear images instead of strong social difficulties.
    Some non-sociopaths might call them evil because it is very hard to understand and accept their motivations, and more of all, to protect ourselves as empaths for exemple.
    And of course, as nobody knows what to do with this kind of people...they just label them as evil, poor people, without heart, selfish etc etc...
    I guess that most sociopaths are deep inside suffering or their condition. Would they accept to try to change if there was a way to do it, not sure...
    Many of them would say, other people shouldn't be so sensitive...I do have my place as I am in this world.
    Sociopath's scam is mainly working because of the surprise of it. It's working with people too confident, and who don't know how to react front of a sociopath...
    If Sociopaths have to learn the social limits, Empaths have to learn that there are "predators" behaviours in this world.

    1. If Sociopaths have to learn the social limits, Empaths have to learn that there are "predators" behaviors in this world.

      Well stated Anon. I am intrigued that Europe has a differing approach to sociopathy could you expand on this?

      "Sociopath's scam is mainly working because of the surprise of it. It's working with people too confident, and who don't know how to react front of a sociopath."

      I take it you mean by this that it is the surprise factor of the "scam" that makes it work. This is part of it but in any scam the victim is "complicate" in a way. I am not excusing the scammer, far from it, but for a scam to work you need a specific "mark". The mark MUST want/need what the scammer is offering and desire it to the point that they are willing to suspend their logic and social defenses long enough for the scammer to get over on the scammed. For a monetary scam we target the person's greed. We even let them think that what we are offering is NOT legal and they go for it anyway. Examples would be people who fall for the "Nigerian Banker scam or buy fake I-pads in store parking lots. The "victim in these cases KNEW that they were engaging in illegal actions and put that aside to make what they saw as a profit.

      For a social scam we offer love. That is why we target those who have social niceities so ingrained that THEY feel bad when the relationship falls apart. Sociopaths who are rapists target drunk women and hookers since they are the easy access victims and least likely to prosecute or be believed when/if they do.

      We treasure innocence in our society. It is terrible when it is ripped away. But ANon here has a very important point. If people were taught when they were growing up not just that there are predators out there but HOW THEY THINK and what behaviors and tells to watch out for then you would be safer. If our tricks did not work we would adapt new ones OR it might force us to adpat to a pro social outlook as THAT would be rewarded higher than manipulative behavior.

      We already do this with children in some areas. In my city children are taught in school how to recognize a stranger pedophile and how to escape one. It does not ALWAYS work but they are having buttloads of success. The problem here lies in that we only teach these children how to avoid STRANGER pedios. Most pedophiles will be a family member (which we teach the children to accept the behavior of) or an authority figure (which they are taught to obey). That combined with the fact that many adults (learned behavior/societal BS) are less likely to believe a child than another adult. There are more things to contend with here but the bottom line is that I am right up alongside Anon that the more (unbiased) information people have to act on the more safe they are. In many instances we must give up a certain amount of our innocence to acquire the skills needed for our protection but society treasures the innocence higher than the skill set unlearning it would provide. People do this at a personal level too.

      Our treasured voices of our brave socio survivors on this site have told us that the real damage came with the loss of their innocence. If they had foreknowledge of how to spot us and our behaviors and how to nullify or react in a manner that shut down the socio and steered them into a better behavior set perhaps a positive outcome would have resulted instead?

    2. It's a slippery slope between 'identification' and 'discrimination'. Perhaps I have a poor opinion of humanity, but it's very likely that someone will 'spot' a sociopath and, instead of trying to react in a manner to steer the socio into better behaviours, instead tells everyone that socio interacts with. Suddenly that socio is being constantly second-guessed, and shunned by the majority of people around them out of blind fear. I doubt this is conducive to a 'positive outcome'.

    3. First off good luck on your continuing journey M.E., know that to me and my socio-circle you are an inspiration. I put your question to the group as my obvious answer is that you are a doing a service for both sociopath and empath alike. Most of circle is not really pro-social. They have moral codes but are not too interested in becoming any more pro-social than the minimum to stay out of trouble. I have been able to impress upon them that not causing social havoc can be just as important a life skill as not causing legal problems for themselves. I have managed to direct them towards being helpful to at least their own people-possessions and not destructive as being more constructive to their lives. In the end though they have no desire to be "cured". They LIKE who they are. As long as they are not actively malicious this is fine with me.

      The consensus is that what you are doing will in fact benefit us as a people and might some day benefit them personally. They did what I did and ran it through the pragmatic and selfish test and since it will most probably be of benefit to them give you their "blessing". The other part was that they don't see you as a "traitor". This might come form the fact that our circle has come to see that while we share the same way of thinking due to each having a personal moral code we don't act as one unit. This may come a surprise to the new Anons on the site but each sociopath is an individual on a unique life journey just like the rest of humanity.

      Some of us have decided to assist others on the way. We all have different and in part selfish motivations for this but never the less we are committed to it and when a sociopath truly commits to something we are a force to be reckoned with. My roommate for instance for the most part looks at how I live my life with interest and adapts factors that serve to keep his life running smoothly but only so much as it serves him. He will friends that need it to the best of his ability but not if it infringes on his life or finances to much. He has adopted my at least one "good deed a day". He does one good deed a year and he usually gets something out of it. He runs stuff by me before acting so I can peel off the rationalizations and "carrot him" into a socially acceptable path. This is ongoing and not 100% effective but he is making progress.

      I am going off topic again... You are doing what is best for you M.E., You are attempting to make a difference in how we are perceived and treated. You are fighting prejudice (even it some of it is earned). You are taking huge risks for us and that is to be respected by any sociopath. You are conducting a social experiment also something that all the sociopaths I know do and admire. I would not worry over much how the sociopath community in general see react to your personal choices. You have my admiration and support at least. You have the apathy and curiosity of my circle :)

      I have found that I can get my circle to adopt pro-social behavior in two ways. I can point out the advantages it brings them, or I can throw it out there as a challenge. So in our microcosm I have found that sociopaths can be motivated to adopt change that benefits them personally if explained form the scociopathic point of reference or by presenting it as an intellectual experiment/game/challenge. This in itself is proof that scoiopathic behavior can be modified in a positive manner. If the scoio can see the benefit of continuing the behavior they can and will retain it.

    4. Hi Puppy,
      It's difficult to speak for the whole Europe maybe. But I can speak for France as I am french. Many people know, in France, that our view is quite different from the anglo-saxon/american one.
      One of the best example, is how french therapists are disapproving the "cognitive" therapies in our country.
      I guess for many people now, in our country, to be "evil" doesn't really mean something, first because we are less and less into religion, and because our Cartesian culture, leads us more to not take a behaviour as a fact, but as a consequence.
      If i speak about sociopaths to my friends, family, who are different people with different caracters and views, I guess they would just say that they are poor people who didn't have the chance to get what it needs to raise a well balanced child, and the consequences are heavy.
      This is what I think when I understand that someone around me has sociopathic traits. I'm annoyed, because I don't have the energy to play the games (it asks me to go outside of myself), but at the same time I would be sad to loose a friend, if I can't handle the relationship (it's little like if I speak a few words of japonese, and you ask me to make a long speech in front of 50000 japanese).

      Sometimes, I just feel like sociopaths are still children who can't handle their own limits (and impulsive), and are dying for other people to show them where is the limit. When you do it, they are, for some of them, acting better in a social environment.

      But for me it is exhausting, because i'm not their parents...I'm looking for a well balanced friendship.

      There is something that i've learned recently, I must not be emotionnaly close to a sociopath.They can't handle it. But it is not always easy when you are, by nature, an emotional person.
      Practicaly, it means that I must not see them too much, too long, I must regularly say no to some invitations, but funny-party moments are ok with them. It is always better, when possible, to meet them with other empaths or empath kind of people. I avoid moments when they will feel like they have to lead or take meeting new people for example, work I guess, any competition for anything, etc...

      As for empaths...I'm reading very intersting books and experiences about my inner self. I'm still a mystery to myself, but i'm progressing.
      Some people say there are unskilled empaths (means they don't know clearly they are empaths, or don't know how to deal with it), and skilled ones, who are using their empathy in the right way to live better.
      What I have understood so far, is that I am an empath, and maybe a high potential adult. It might have some bridges with Asperger, as I suspect my husband to have asperger traits.
      In one word, I have a very strong and wide inner world, most of the time I'm turned to this inner world. It means that I might have some difficulties for the down to earth things (cooking, cleaning, taking care of myself...I'm doing it of course, but I do understand that some people are far more skilled for it). Some women I know are most of the time looking for these flaws to try to take power...but It can be many different things of course...I don't say that people with sociopath traits are master in cooking and cleaning. It can be anything else.
      (continuing below)

    5. As things stand in society today Anon I do agree with your assessment with probable reaction. I am able to get away with publicly identifying for the simple expedient that I have vast positive social currency with those I identify to (usually) or if they are new to the group the group helps the newcomer process the paradox that I usually present.

      I am might be unique in this but I seriously doubt it. Tii for instance might be able to get away with it too since his moral code and his reputation for adhering to it would buffer him from repercussions. One thing I do with the person/persons I reveal to is to honestly answer all their questions about the disorder and me in general. Truthfully me and my roommate started doing the reveal for several purposes.

      1) Simple curiosity to see how people would react.
      2) to make sure people knew that we could be dangerous and manipulative and so THEY WOULD try and second guess our actions.
      3) To live more honest lives.

      Number two is the big one. We know how we get. We watch each other and call bullshit and protect the rest of the circle from each other. We have invited our friends to call BS on any of our actions to prevent us from harming them either by being callus or lying or manipulating them to their disadvantage. Not one of them has done us any harm, run screaming from the room or revealed us to other acquaintances though they have asked us to self reveal on occasion. (different reasons long stories blah blah blah)


    6. By now about 50 people, at least, know I am a sociopath. Some of these people ask me to watch their children for them. Let that sink in a minute. I am not talking about having no recourse to other child care I am saying they chose me over anyone else to take care of their young. While you might think them insane consider why.

      I have am amazing at child care. I can control, teach, and amuse children better than most of the parents who hand them off to me. The kids all prefer me as a minder. I am best equipped to handle any emergency that might crop up. They know I will throw myself in front of a grizzly to protect their kids. They have my past actions and experiences as proof. They have the evidence of their own eyes and other eyes as well. They understand how my disorder works and that I personally represent no threat but in fact an advantage to their kids.

      This just me personally though. My disorder represents in a way that makes me advantageous. My roommate and husband are not to be left unsupervised around children in any WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM they know this and neither will breed or allow themselves to be put in those circumstances. The disorder manifests differently in each individual dependent on life experiences and level of control and moral adaptations.

      This is what I am trying to get out there by self-revealing. That we can be useful members of society but we do have limitations like anyone else. There are emotives I would not in a million years leave a child with. I would pick Tii for instance over them in a second.

      I do not suggest to any sociopath to self reveal UNLESS they have demonstrated a severe adherence to a moral code, have built up sufficient social currency to be received in a non-abusive manner, fully explain what it means to them to be a sociopath, feel out the person/people they are revealing to the extent that they can be relatively sure of their own safety and do make sure to warn the people about what to watch out for from them. Start the conversation at a natural point. Ask the participants what they know about sociopathy. Ask the participants how they see you as a person beforehand. If there has been no overt hostility displayed towards the idea of a sociopath being an accepted member of society proceed to self reveal and invite questions. Answer honestly (except in places where the statue of limitations has yet to run out :) I have yet to be met with any problems that we could not hash out reasonably.

      Once again. If you have no moral code or no social currency built up DON'T. Stay "in the closet". Or go ahead and tell me how it went. I am kinda curious.

    7. As was suggested in comments on the previous article, the term 'pro-social sociopath' is a contradiction, and it is important to separate a person's behavior from their internal cognitive and neurological state; i.e. not all people who have a lack of empathy could be diagnosed with ASPD, or will end up in prison...

      People are discouraged from identifying as sociopath for very good reasons, and lumping people together, irrespective of their individual behavior, is harmful to society, for many of the reasons discussed here.

      So for the lack of a better idea, I'll use the term "nonpath" for folks with a sociopathic neurological structure who act in pro-social ways... so I would say that Puppy Basket, Tii, ME and some others here are nonpaths.

      @Tii From what you have written, it looks like your religious beliefs are relevant to your acting in pro-social ways. As an agnostic, I still have questions about that: As I understand you, you believe that all souls will either go to Heaven or Hell in the afterlife, and you want to go to Heaven. You write that doing things right gives you positive demigod points (a good feeling), whilst doing things wrong has no effect on how you feel.

      Is there a connection between getting positive demigod points and your chance of going to Heaven (vice versa too, negative demigod points increasing your chances of going to Hell)?

      It's often written that socios (nonpaths and ASPD folks) tend not to respond to negative feedback, or negative outcomes -- so increased recidivism, as well as your lack feelings about negative demigod points both appear to fit into that.

      What do you think about the term "nonpath", and can you clarify the relationship between demigod points and your chance of going to Heaven?

    8. "If i speak about sociopaths to my friends, family, who are different people with different caracters and views, I guess they would just say that they are poor people who didn't have the chance to get what it needs to raise a well balanced child, and the consequences are heavy."

      I am moving to France :)

      I see where you don't exclude sociopaths from your circle of friends, but instead treat them as you would someone with perhaps a social learning disorder. I commend you. We can indeed be exhausting to normal people and empaths to be around. Just so you know from our side of it we find that being around emotional people exhausting. I suppose we are both trying to do the emotional for you and intellectual for us "gymnastics" it takes to interact with the other.

      I must go now but am looking forward to reading more from you.

    9. Dr. Whoddawhadda...did you just coin a new term?...let's see, who else is a nonpath...Dev. Dev is a nonpath...whatever happened to Dev? And what's a raven suppose to represent to you Dr. W? You called me a Raven. I call myself Raven, but just wondering what you meant. :P

    10. Dr. Ginger, I write as DoctorHow now, rather than DoctorWhat, because I do believe as also @Mach has written that coining a new term for 'pro-social sociopaths' is necessary to make progress in the end...

      However, it's the interactions here that lead to this proposal. A new term can't be coined till a community as a whole finds it meaningful and understands why it is important to do so. Maybe another term would be better, it is only a suggestion...

      I do believe that alot of this back and forth that seems to never come to an end, and people just talk past each other, arises from inadequate language.

    11. Dr. Ginger,
      "And what's a raven suppose to represent to you Dr. W? You called me a Raven. I call myself Raven, but just wondering what you meant"

      I was referring to a spiritual essence (even though I can only cognitively understand spirituality, not emotionally). Search for instance:
      Raven as Your Totem: If Raven is your Totem animal you are very playful and creative. You have no fear of the dark, or the underworld and understand that there is a divine balance between the light and the dark." from a google search, there are many more descriptions.

      So for fun you could be a ravenpath at the moment or a bearpath... but I suppose a scientific term could be "omnipath".??


    12. "If Raven is your Totem animal you are very playful and creative. You have no fear of the dark, or the underworld". Nailed it! Oh you are good. That's exactly how I describe it. I'm not afraid of the "darkness".

    13. @Doc,
      I don't think going to Heaven, and gaining demigod points have anything to do with one another. Demigod points are a result of my ego, while going to Heaven is a result of me doing good. If I help out people in need I don't necessarily gain demigod points. But if without laying an eye on my textbooks, and without studying I ace a test that no other person in the class got higher than a B for, I'd probably earn demigod points. Sorta like, "Well, nothing to be surprised or excited about. It's me after all. Such feats are totally within my abilities." I also do think that the fact that I don't give myself negative points is because of the fact that we don't learn from negative feedback or negative outcome. I tried to explain that on the last thread, guess you missed it. I think it's because nothing can shake us enough (we're not concerned enough to notice the negative feedback) to make us feel any less, or diminish ourselves.

      Nonpath sounds good enough for me.

      If you move to France you might want to consider Paris. Though it can be expensive as fuck. Parisians can be such snobs, and talk so highly of themselves, they probably wouldn't notice a sociopath if they walk with a sign above their head. Too busy bragging.

    14. Obviously not all, but a good deal of those I met.

    15. AnonymousAugust 28, 2014 at 5:34 AM can I ask you to pick at least a temporary name. The reason I ask is that it is not easy to tell if the anon's in this topic are the same or different, and I would like to be able to search for a name and pick out the posts I want to read. I often skip over anon posts.

      Till you offer a name, for the selfish purposes mentioned above (I want to follow what you write in what can become very long threads, and optionF is the way to do that...

      I Knight Thee (was that Great Balls of Fire?) OpenMindedFrank

  8. Why I didn't see Sociopaths coming, is because they enter through a door which i'm never looking, and which is not locked, because it leads to an empty room in my inner self. A rooms i've difficulties to take care of, and to inhabit.

    For example, speaking about work, a person with sociopath traits would not succeed with me, and maybe wouldn't even try...I fully occupy my "work" room, and there is a door code to enter.

    Like every child, I've learned to be suspicious with strangers, etc...the problem is not here, the problem is that I don't inhabit a part of myself...because i'm far too busy with another part of my inner self : emotions, sensitivity, deep thinking.
    I'm learning now to use it usefully and to better handle it.
    It's a strange world, but I understand many things now in my life.

    I would say for sociopath thinking to be recognized as full human beings, that to be recognized as an empath/sensitive/High potentiel people is also not easy at all. Human being doesn't like sheeps out of the flock...of course it's even harder if you have a kind of evil profile, but not so easy also for sensitive people. Sensitivity is not always seen as a positive thing.

    I've seen recently this. This is very american for me (like a hollywood film, but dealing with serious subjects (strange!)). I guess this is a way to try to raise awareness about some type of personalities.

    Then the testimony of scientists seems inevitable, but are they ready for this?
    In France, there is a wide conflict between psychanalists and the supporters of the Asperger syndrom.

    Maybe that neurology will make anybody agree one day?

    1. Anon9:21
      "Why I didn't see Sociopaths coming, is because they enter through a door which i'm never looking, and which is not locked, because it leads to an empty room in my inner self. A rooms i've difficulties to take care of, and to inhabit."
      Yes, that is my experience too. As I think OldAndWise wrote, it's not losing one's innocence, but the process of doing so that can cause harm.

      can I ask you to pick a name, at least a temporary one, so I can use the search function (e.g. optionF) to find what more you choose to write?

    2. I will test to see if it works...

    3. Hi Lala, a name also has the benefit that if someone uses the search box on the righthand side of the webpage, one can find everything a named character ever wrote here, or any response that mentioned that name -- and get a picture of that person, more detailed and interesting..

      Myself and someothers also tend not to pay much attention to anonymous comments... Up to now, there are lots of them in this comment section alas. Then there are some names I totally ignore: they are stuck in a closed mindset. They are not worth my time..

      Lala, you are worth my time:)

  9. Replies
    1. Welcome Lala!
      I do think of "pure evil" as perhaps a superstitious or social construct. Take the Inquisition for example. The atrocities were performed with the express purpose of rooting out pure evil. (Well that and some underhanded political motives and the desire to take other peoples stuff) Paradox. I mean here are some good god fearing Christians ENJOYING their good works since torturing a sinner to death is good for the sinner.

      I had an epiphany the other day that the real reason the very thought of us existing horrifies and terrifies some emoters is this: They can put themselves in out shoes. Their brain examines what it would do if something magially removed all the social and moral constraints and guilt and "conscious" from themselves and they saw what "good works" they would perform. Personally. They got a good look at the monster that lies in their own brain and it, not us, scared the shit out of them. They don't believe a moral code can hold us back because it would not for them.

      It seems the emoters on this site who are actively trying to participate are different. They looked inside and were baffled by how anyone could have monstrous thoughts to begin with. They wanted to understand how we were created and how we operate.

      Nonpath.... I dunno I like the fact that it is easier and shorter to spell but it seems to me to present the assumption that I am not a sociopath anymore. This is far from the truth. My thought processes are possibly/probably never going to completely change. My off switch for emotions is gonna stay off for the most part. ( Though I am experimenting with flipping it back on thanks to you guys.) I still have that pesky rage trigger that could end me in jail forever. I don't even know if it is possible for me to stop manipulating completely. This is a daily maintenance thing for me and a slow process. Wish me luck and if you believe in a higher power pray for me.

    2. Puppy Basket, I'll address your last paragraph item by item:

      1. My point (as I think Mach agreed) is that separating antisocial sociopaths from pro-social ones, by using simply 'sociopath' for antisocial ones and some other word [maybe nonpath but that is only an initial suggestion] is important. Do you think that this separation is useful and could be beneficial (for all kinds of reasons, many of which are written here, including stigma...).

      This does not imply that your thought processes are going to change. Nonpath simply referrs to people who are 'sociopathically minded", as Ythene wrote, from sociopaths who are antisocial.

      By the same measure, I think it is important to separate antisocial empaths from pro-social ones. So I would suggest to use the word empath for prosocial empaths, and dysempath for antisocial empaths.

      I'm just trying to figure out if, even if you don't like the name nonpath, you agree or not it is important to separate behavior from mindset, that both of these are important, hence we need 4 words here instead of 2.

      ps I have gotten alot out of your comments here as well, but I want to stick on this point to see what people think, if it is useful or not.

    3. @ Puppy,
      My own reaction is that sociopath's behaviour is like a deseperate way to survive. From what exactly, I don't know...a difficult childhood, environment? a different brain system?
      I think that they can't trully turn themselves to others, because they must save themselves is like a surviving process.

      That's why I guess we should understand that sociopaths are maybe not acting against us as a specific person. We are just maybe the mirror of a past child story...and supposed to pay for this difficult story we are not aware of?

      I'm born with a mother who has plenty of love to give and teach me. Unfortunately she became psychologically ill. I had to try to help her, with my child heal her in a way (to live more for her than for me), because she is the most precious person I had on earth.
      Am I born an empath? or does the circonstances made me an empath...I have no idea. Maybe both.

    4. @ Doctorhow,
      What is an antisocial empath?? I've never heard this?

    5. Hi LaLa, well I haven't heard of antisocial empath until today -- in the back-and-forth here -- it just popped up. I did a quick search on google and didn't find it either...

      If you use the search box on the homepage on the righthandside and search for "puppy basket" [for instance], after reading some of that (and she has written many pointed comments that offer clarity and some degree of insight), well Puppy Basket and others have often described cases where empaths act out of their emotions to grossly harm others, and then justify, or rationalize their behavior through self-righteous hypocrisy.

      those descriptions are of 'antisocial empaths' -- or what I would called (provisionally) dysempaths. They did not actually using these specific terms though but the definition of that corresponds to what they write about.

      I would also say empaths persistentlycoming in here to advocate for exterminating all sociopaths would be reflecting a state of being that I would identify as antisocial(behavior) and empathic feelings combined in an unfortunate way.

    6. I guess empaths can sometimes turn off their emotional system. They can become then very cold and rude. This is what i m doing sometimes to try to understand a sociopath behaviour, i make an exercise to turn off my emotions. I can be like this also at work for example, where emotion is not very important. It is more about a strategic game that everyone is playing conciously.
      About people who wants to destroy sociopaths...i m not really sure they are empaths. This is not an empath feeling, or a very brief one! I read very often here the sociopath/empath opposition. But if you are not sociopath, it doesn t mean that you are empath!! I think they say that 20% of the population are empaths. I guess there is also different levels of empathy.
      Anyway, i think that there is very few occasions for an empath to be antisocial, but as we can switch of sometimes emotions, it can happens.
      I have suddenly cut some friendships in my life, coldly. It looks sudden for the other person, but it was a decision for me. In this case people don't recognize me, but yes empathy does have limits.

    7. I can add also that empaths can have an antisocial behaviour regarding their soft " autism-autistic" behaviour, while stuck in their inner world. But then it is not a pro-active antisocial behaviour, it is more about avoid something or someone...

    8. I agree with Lala. The emotive and the empath are different. I sometimes use the term interchangeable and that is kind of insulting to our fine empaths on the site. so now we have Mythopath (prosocial sociopath), Emotive (normative person) , Empath (self explanatory) regular sociopath (antisocial sociopath). How is that folks?

    9. I think I can help you in your quest for the off switch Lala. I learned it by talking a step back in my head from what is going on outside of it. Humans normally must assign attributes to everything. Stop doing that. Nothing is good or bad look at everything as just being. Don't include it in the story. I took a class in Film Critique once. I would recommend to people that they never do this. You will never enjoy movies as much again . It forces you to pick the movie into it component bits while you are examining something you cannot feel emotions about it. We don't brain that way. There are certain tasks you can set your mind to that "short circuit" the emotional response area. Math is one of these, for instance. A suggestion I have heard for people who have emotional performance anxiety when peeing in public is to do their times tables while peeing. It works like a charm. You cannot do math and feel at the same time.

      Lala you can practice this disconnect while watch a movie that always elicits an emotional response in you. Keep doing your times tables while watching and see how this stops you from becoming immersed. Once you realize you can make this jump on a deep level you should be able to do it at will with practice. Times table pee'ers for instance eventually become able to perform without resorting to the crutch. They internalize the lesson and move forward.

      Another method is living in the moment. This is a zen/hindu meditation thing. Put a picture of a puppy or something that creates in you an emotional response when you look at it in front of you. (You might want to do some meditation prep before hand there are many good books and methods out there and online how to's) Look at the picture once you are calm and "in the zone" feel how happy puppies make you, how much you like em, then slowly pull away in your mind, realize that these are not real puppies but just a flat representation of puppies. Meditate on that for a while. Now take it one step further the picture is not in fact puppies at all it is just dots on a surface, it is just colors and lines. You can appreciate the aesthetics of the composition now. Indulge those feelings for a while. Pull away more and become an observer in your own mind, look at the picture but don't let yourself think about it. Be in the moment. Be without attaching to that picture. If thoughts intrude, and they will, examine them and release them. Just be. The picture is not in anyway you. It does not effect your being in the moment it is part of the landscape that you are being in. You have become a part of the universe that you always were and outside matters do not concern you. You can record this and play it back while doing the exercise if you have trouble. Do this exercise with a picture of a person next. Do it for a week.

    10. Now on to putting this into practice. Next time you are in a situation where someone is "making you mad" step back in your head. You have the practice and the tools now. Understand that this person has no effect on you they just are. Detach your emotions from them. Visualize their emotions as tentacles reaching out to you and visual picking them off. Then (deep breathing here just like when you meditate) just listen to what they are saying like you are watching a movie. Don't put judgements on it, don't include it into your own story, just be a quite observer in this play. Observe how they emote, watch their facial expressions and hand gestures. Know that they are a beautiful part of the universe just like you. Just drink in the beauty of life. Think about what they are saying without attaching your own judgement to and back story to it. Does it make sense? Is it eliciting an emotional response in you. WHY? Pick it apart. Think back to why your own story is making you react to this person's story. Don't judge yourself, there is no good or bad remember? There is just now. If there is just now then what is happening has no effect. No past to color your perception, no future to fear. Take yourself out of picture and you can act instead of react.

      Your zen moment of the day was brought to you by the number 7 and the letter z.

    11. Lala,

      For me I think I became a sociopath because of over thinking everything. Ever since I was a kid, I've rationalized situations to the point where in the end all that was left to think was "why should I feel anything differently about that situation". If someone died my thinking would be "well their either in heaven so I don't need to cry, or they're in hell so they don't deserve my tears, or they are reincarnated in which case they are alive again someone else, or they've disappeared into nothing meaning that they are not worried or sad about the situation so why should I be". With all those thought going to my head the end result was, well it's pointless to cry or feel sad about death. If someone is insulting me, my thinking is "do I believe what they said is true?" If no then screw them, why should it bother me. If the answer is yes, another question comes up, "do I like that about myself?" Yes? Then it's a compliment. No? Then change it and case closed. Very young I realized that all good things must come to an end, no friendship lasts forever, no life last forever (at least in this world), no love is definite. So, I never got attached to anything, not my toys, friends, pets, or even family members. Eventually all that will disappear, I enjoy them while I can, but I do not get attached to them. One poem I like that summarizes this:

      "Nature’s first green is gold,
      Her hardest hue to hold.
      Her early leaf’s a flower;
      But only so an hour.
      Then leaf subsides to leaf.
      So Eden sank to grief,
      So dawn goes down to day.
      Nothing gold can stay."
      -By Robert Frost

      Conclusion, if you think a situation through, going over the facts and details in your head, and matching them with different emotions people would express under those conditions, often times you will realize that displaying those emotions are useless, worthless, a waste of time and energy, and illogical.

      Sorta hard to explain. Not sure if I'm making any sense. If some part is confusing you feel free to ask.

    12. I really like the word mythopath. But wouldn't it apply to both prosocial and antisocial characters? Both love to spin tales. It would be good to have a different, less loaded word to describe people with aspd characteristics. Mmm, we are getting very politically correct here. Society comes up with new words when one becomes too loaded with pejorative connotations. Black became African American for instance.

      Basket of Puppies is often comparing her alcoholism with her sociopathy, in the sense that it is a daily decision, even moment by moment struggle to keep on the straight and narrow, and the possibility to slide back one either or both accounts is very real. She is a recovering alcoholic. Is she also a recovering sociopath? PuppyB,what do you think?

    13. I will run the word mythopath by my mythofriend, see if he likes it better than sociopath or psychopath!

    14. Puppy Basket, your explanation of deconstructing emotions and feelings to parts that are do not affect you anymore is really good. I use a similar thought process when emotions become too overwhelming. I become an observer of myself. It is a useful skill to have. But it is a slippery slope. I have spoken before about the fact that one of the most difficult aspect of losing your innocence by being targeted by a sociopath is to retain and continue to enjoy and trust your feelings and trust others.

      Learning to deconstruct feelings is like burning a piece of furniture or melting a car back to a block of metal. It is useful and needed some of the time (a very small portion of the time) but if you burn all the furniture and melt all the cars, it won't be a very interesting or enjoyable place to be, not to me. I want to be able to keep joy, trust, anger, excitement, emotional connections, disgust, contempt, fear, the ability to love, and anything that life has to offer, even boredom. It has now become a more conscious process, it was much more instinctual when I still had my innocence.

    15. Yes I do even use the term recovering sociopath to describe myself quite a bit. O&W you keep enjoying life! I take the observer role as a life choice for me now. Guru says it is requirement. Observe all with perfect compassion and love knowing all is god and all belongs to god so your attachment to it is just illusion anyway. But this path is only for the initiate. A "householder" like you are has commitments to the world and family and those are beautiful too.

    16. Yes I know OldAndWise, mythopath was more of a way to keep that part, but removing the bad connotation that comes with sociopath, or psycopath. To be honest, if we could find the right words, I would change not only for the word for "mythopaths" (for now) but, also for the typical movie sociopath.

    17. Tii, regarding your idea "I would change not only for the word for "mythopaths" (for now) but, also for the typical movie sociopath." Could the latter be something akin to "malpath"?

    18. Tii, about empathy, how do you relate to it's dictionary meanings?
      1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
      2.the imaginative ascribing to an object, as a natural object or work of art, feelings or attitudes present in oneself: "By means of empathy, a great painting becomes a mirror of the self."

  10. @ Puppy
    Yes it would be the reaction of my friends and family, BUT they would maybe not choose to do anything with you or approach you, to avoid problems.
    It means that they recognize that you are not just a mistake of nature, that there is a background, doesn't mean that they will do anything for you...they'll surely consider that it is your problem, or the scientists/therapist problem.
    As I wrote long time ago on this blog, sociopath traits can come also from a disadvantage environment, like in certain cultures and countries.
    For the ones I know, it's mainly linked to a past hard life, were love was not an important thing to give to children.
    France is not a reference, but I think that there is a strong importance given to morality, civility, very early at school for example. It's part of many young french education. We "pretend" (only!) to be the country of human rights.
    There is also an important social welfare system.
    Does it help to reduce the personality disorders? not sure...but I have met much more sociopathic traits in disavantages environments/countries, even if I have met some in France too.

    1. Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you on this Lala but I really wanted to put it to the test not only in my won circumstances but in what I know personally about my circle and in the sociopathic community at large down to the serial killer.

      I think you might have something vital here. When you said we were stuck at a certain point in childhood and just replaying our childhood truma over and over. I posted a few days ago something similar to the first part about ANY mental disorder seems to me to be stuck at a certain phase of childhood development that they never moved past. Emotionally and developmentally anyway. I also have been exploring that fact that people are who they are because that is the story they tell themselves (everyone not just scoios). You manged to put them together without the extraneous crap though.

      When you sober up one of the first things they drill into your head is you will never stay sober unless you do a few things, one is change your playmates and playgrounds much of the program is geared to creating a tabula rasa (clean slate), recognizing the patterns you keep replaying (old tapes) and trying to change that pattern and behaviors into something that works.

      One of the fascinating things about the serial killer is they almost always have a type of preferred victim, Killing mommy or daddy or whoever damaged them in the first place over and over. Perhaps the more egregious the damage the more likely we are to be violent. Most offenders socio or not they have been able to study sited "violent fantasias" . Playing a mind tape over and over until the fantasy crossed into reality.

      On the non violent side socios who did not get love become seducers. We are trying to recreate our childhoods with a happy ending maybe? I know that until I let go of the past and learned new ways to deal with my fucked up family dynamic ("Dance of Anger" go read it guys) until I rewrote my story I could not change. Now I am on to the next step which is to eliminate the story altogether. Live one second at a time as it were and this is where the real freedom comes from.

      Lala you are a genus. If we use this method, a bastardized twelve step program maybe, I am living proof (there are many more) that socios can recover. I use the word recover because this is a daily maintenance thing and a program of progress. Stop moving forward, stop growing, stop helping others (cause teaching what we know is where we learn) and we don't just stagnate, we slide back into old behavior and thinking.

      That is why this site is so vital for me. This whole year has been one astounding journey of discovery for me. Thank you for taking it with me and guiding me along the way.

    2. The only problem with helping sociopaths is most think they are fine the way they are. A friend broke it down for me really simple yesterday. Imagine your life as a car. Most people do general maintenance and wash their car and feel a connection to it. It is an expression of who they are. If something is broke on the car most people will bring it to the shop and get it fixed if the can;t afford that maybe find a friend to help or get a book on how to fix cars and do it themselves.

      Now imagine you are driving down the street and see a dude pushing his car. All the tires are flat, the hood is up and the engine is on fire. You stop and offer to help and he looks at you like you are the crazy one and claims there is no problem he is just taking it down the street to wash it and get it polished. You: "But your tires are flat and the engine is on fire".
      Him "Yeah but it looks pretty doesn't it?" "Isn't that all that matters?" You : "We could take it to the shop and they could fix it" Him: " But it has always been this way and I like it like this. People are always giving me attention for it and besides why would I want to fix it when I can just keep pushing it?"

      Kind of extreme but this is how I think. I am the dude pushing my broke ass life down the street and not caring to fix what is wrong with it. In the early chapters of her book ME had a story about not fixing the breaks on her car and I laughed out loud because... I did the same damn thing. I had a beater camero and if you jerked the wheel too far to the left really fast the engine would shut down and the car lock up. The breaks were going out on the car so I used the emergency break instead until it burned out and then I used the "Jerk the wheel to the left method to stop my car until my friend soiled herself one day when going down a hill in the rain break free toward the freeway crossing I had to use that method to stop.

      That in a nutshell is how I used to think and live. As long as I had a work around that sometimes could be applied I would not change even if it would quite probably kill me and anyone with me. NO FUCKS GIVEN. Yes indeed I thought my way of thinking was grand and logical and the only damn thing I was feeling when I burned to stop 2 inches short of a speeding semi was excitement and accomplishment. I seriously thought look how fucking smart I am never realizing that driving with no brakes in the first place was NOT INTELLIGENT.

      I have an IQ that puts me in the 99.9 percentile. I am, on paper at least smarter than 99.9% of the people on the planet. Two days ago I fell out of bed because I tried to pull the pillow I was sitting on out from under me while still on it and pulled my self off the bed. I brain bad. I need to keep reminding myself of that. Raw intelligence is my fall back ego booster. I am smarter than you (statistically) which make every thought that comes through my brain better than your thought. This is the lie I will tell myself every chance I get, or did until it was pointed out to me that most of the shit I actually DO is stupider than shit. My mind is trying to kill me. Simple fact. I advise others all the time on how to better themselves. All my nuggets of wisdom though? They are things I learned from other people that have worked when I put them into practice. If you want to know how to fuck your life up though I can give you plenty of "good ideas" from my personal decisions.

    3. This way of learning is so antithetical to the sociopath mind though. Our ego is so caught up in the stories we tell ourselves. You really have to want to change more than you want to keep pushing the flaming wreckage of your life down the street. That is rare. I am putting this out here though in the hopes that someone will see themselves in me and want this new life I have found. I am content in my own skin today. I am a contributing member of society. I bring my car in for regular checkups and fix the shit that is wrong with it. I do the same for my life. People like to be around me not because I dazzle em with bullshit but because I make their life better in some way.

      I could never have done this on my own. I am grateful and humbled by the people who have helped me on this journey. God (in my opinion and experience) works through people. We make ourselves into a vessel and let our god/goddess/goodness in the universe whatever we call it work through us. If we put the ego in the way the message and execution get garbled. I need simple, If God is indeed everything that means part of the message is in each person. I might have one little piece of the puzzle but that does not help me for shit until everyone else drops their piece on the table and we try this shit together. That is how we get wonderful technology, Each new discovery builds on the old. Sometimes we need to throw out the old way entirely to get to the new thing though. Dyson is a wonderful example of this. Vacuum cleaners were pretty much the same for year and years because everyone figured this is "as good as it gets". They looked at it and called bullshit. Reworked it without being mired in old thinking and came up with an amazing thing and then KEPT IMPROVING ON IT.

      Lala I bow to your genius.

  11. I have a question now, what don't you like in empath's behaviours?

  12. I have decided I am now a mythopath.

    1. lolol Tii 19 year old, 6'2'' black male mythopath! I got lost due to the length of the previous thread...

      "Demigod points are a result of my ego, while going to Heaven is a result of me doing good." I suppose this means (please clarify) 1: going to Hell is a result of you doing bad (or what is the opposite of good), 2: the prospect of going to Heaven motivates you to do good, 3: the prospect of going to Hell motivates you to avoid doing 'bad', and therefore 4: since you want to go to Heaven, you get a good feeling when you do good.

      I am assuming that some of the above statements are wrong. How did you pick mythopath?

      ps. i don't know what kind of path I am, maybe xpath?

    2. Doc,
      You pretty much got everything right except 4. I don't get a good feeling when I do good. If you mean good deeds, no I'm just doing what should be done. If you mean doing things well, no doing things well come naturally for me XD.

      Mythos is greek for story and word. In philosophy it's used to describe an explanation that stands on nothing but the fact that you wanted an answer.

      How did humans discover fire? Well, the gods had fire, and it was just awesome and wanted to keep jt dor themselves instead of shzring it with humans. They weren't good enough for fire. But Prometheus thought otherwise, and gave fire to humans. Btw in case you were curious, Prometheus was condemn to forever get his liver (or was it brain, or eye) eaten by birds. Since he is a god, he would live through it and regenerate, only to have it eaten.

      I figured since sociopaths are good at making stories and even better at manipulating words, mythopath would fit well.

    3. Hi Tii, I like mythopath.

      There is a disease called mythomania or sometimes referred to as 'pseudologica fantastica', where a person invents myriad of stories about their life, a barrage that is faintly related to reality. Most of the lies are self-aggrandizing, and not primarily to con. It's not known if such people float in and out of believing their lies, or if it is like a 'waking dream'.

      And yeah, the stories can be intriguing.

    4. Psychopath... Psychomania
      Mythopath... Mythomania

      Is it me or is it starting to seem more legitimate.

      Alright that makes two now. Anyone else thinking of boarding the ship.

    5. What is an xpath?

    6. Hi Tii, it looks like you agree that, if we are going to use labels, it's important to distinguish pro-social sociopaths (mythopath or your favourite word here) from anti-social sociopaths, who are just plain old sociopaths. The two share a mind-set where they don't internalize feelings from doing bad, like shame, remorse... and don't feel affective empathy. But one acts more pro-socially than the other. [This is always a continuum -- we are just describing poles or limits of that continuum.]

      There's been some discussion that to be logically consistent one should distinguish, as well, mind-set from behavior in what are nominally called empaths here? Do you agree with this? If so what would you base it on?
      Can you summarize? You have this talent for conciseness and I've gotten a bit lost.

    7. Dr. Ginger, what is an xpath you ask? An xpath is an unknown type of 'path' that doesn't fit in to a category the person can define in a sensible way and test it against themselves. "x" denotes a variable to be determined later perhaps. It's the first step on a journey of self-discovery. lol

    8. Are you a psychologist?

    9. Dr. Ginger, I would say as an xpath that by definition I don't have much insight into myself, and its been historically proven that I often don't get a grip on the motivation behind people's actions.

      That is my nature. But I have learned that if I sleep on things (i.e. there is a time delay, so I don't have to respond in real time) then I can get a grip or insight on where people are coming from. I can to some degree put myself in their shoes, after meditating and sleeping on it. That is what gives rise to insight that can help me grow and recover.

      It is for you to decide if I am a psychologist. I have not been employed as one though. My mother had a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and practised as such. I typed up all three of her theses. None mentioned sociopaths. I wish they had.

      I have a Ph.D. in a technical scientific field and practised this art successfully for a number of decades. I am embarking on a new career. What would you suggest?

    10. It's also up to you if you want to call me a "psychologist" :):) . In the area of clinical psychology the term "psychologist" is a legally protected term. If you aren't licensed you can't use it. Although I was in the process of becoming licensed in the state of Texas, the field of psychology in the U.S. is so rife with professional and political issues that at this point I don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. Fortunately in marketing there are no licensing boards overseeing psychologists, and anyone can call themselves a psychologist without legal, ethical, and professional consequences. In the Netherlands there are no laws stating an individual, even in the area of clinical psychology, can't refer to themselves as a psychologist. If I'm going to practice clinical psych, it may be there at some point. In Vienna, they don't even know what a licensing board is. I've had several psychologists who were serving on licensing boards tell me everything is done to prevent a person from becoming licensed, or revoke someone's license to "keep the field elite". Whenever there is strong economic interest, there is a lot of apathy. For now I'm off to New York to market my services as a consumer psychologist :):)

    11. Dr. Ginger, given the vast failure of psychology to deal with socio type people in a socially constructive way, I am quite happy that I could never be called a psychologist:)

      What is a 'consumer psychologist'. From what little you know of me, could you take a stab at some title. It would have to take into account my inherent time delay.

    12. "Dr. Ginger, given the vast failure of psychology to deal with socio type people in a socially constructive way...." sigh, I know, and I love this stuff. It's too bad I won't be "allowed" to work with it in any way, shape, or form in the U.S. I help small businesses utilize psychological techniques to influence consumers in to buying products and services. Manipulation at it's worst! :P I can always argue though that I don't help big corporations, only the little guy. The business world is changing becoming more lateral than top down.

    13. I was trained to never assume anything about anyone, and to always ask, or at least investigate. You may not always be able to take everything at face value, but it can be a very dangerous thing assuming things about others so no I won't try to "analyze" you over the net, or make any assumptions.

    14. Hi Dr. Ginger,

      I am not asking you to analyze me. That would be 'assuming things about others'. I was simply asking for your impression, given your limited knowledge of me, just as I suggested raven, and it seemed to hit a resonance with you.

      So it's just whatever pops up in your mind, quite literally. It may or may not hit a resonance but i'd consider more options that way than I do at present.

      I was trained as scientist to be at once a skeptic AND ask how something could be right, before asking how could something be wrong, which one must always do in order to prevent going into lala land. As a former colleague used to say, a mantra if you will, "it's your collaborators who keep you sane". My guess is that you see things if not precisely the same, it would have a resonance with you.

      I have no need for money at the moment. I could develop or contribute to a website. Is there any name for a website that might pop in mind? No, I'll wait a bit till I start. I'm here to learn. But to be honest, if a corporation one day (not anytime soon btw cause it would interfere with the 'vision thing') --you know what is YOUR vision for a project to be shared with a small group of others, but you also know one day it is theoretically possible that some corporation would see fit to deal with people who have difficulties in their lives due to all the misconceptions, misunderstanding, and in fact pure delusions that contrive these machinations of Maya.

      ME is doing her part. So shall I.

    15. Some of your comments are quirky and fun, but also interesting and thought-provoking. Most people who visit the site get obsessed for awhile, and then leave. I’ll miss ya when ya get bored : ) I’m not very intuitive so I’m afraid I can’t “take any stabs” :P I’m an observer. I take mental notes, and watch for patterns in thoughts and behaviors.

    16. Dr. Ginger, I appreciate your nonintuitive observation of thoughts and behaviors, and also your skepticism too. It's true what you write that some people who visit here get obsessed for awhile, as far as I have seen.

      It's also true that anything I really focus on, I go at it in this persistent way, just to see how far I can get. It's a challenge.

      Anyone else want to take some stabs?

    17. Dr. Ginger, thank you for your last remark, including " ) I’m not very intuitive so I’m afraid I can’t “take any stabs”".

      I mistook you as someone who would identify as intuitive, so you see I learned from my mistake. I also missphrased my initial question. I am looking for names for an internet presence, names for a website, to open up some possibilities, since i can't seem to settle on anything creative.

    18. Can I ask why you thought I would identify as intuitive?

    19. Dr. Ginger, the most straightforward answer is that I appreciate the humour and what I would call insightfulness, and let's say 'utility' in your remarks. Utility to me that is.

      Then, since I identify as intuitive somewhat (once I sleep on things, otherwise I am mostly clueless), I made the assumption that you were too. Now I see that I had, I guess, 'projected', some attributes of myself onto you. And as I only have read some of your remarks, and sent them through this a priori filter we all have, I came to what appears to be an erroneous assumption.

      It is precisely what your write: we ALL make invalid assumptions about other people, and we all do it frequently. It is just some people are unable to see the possibility that this is what they are doing.

    20. ps. there's a black-and-white word again "all". Sign of an error in my mind. yes, indeed I made an error.

      Let me rephrase "we all (unless we are gifted with godlike wisdom and observation), make invalid assumptions about other people at times. Some much more so than others. Indeed some people are unable to recognize the possibility that this is what they are doing, and therefore cannot cannot be freed from illusions, delusions sometimes, or at least a factually incorrect representation of the social world they live in.

    21. pss some of what you read is the output of a random procedural generation process, to see what might stick and what does not.

    22. Doc,
      "Hi Tii, it looks like you agree that, if we are going to use labels, it's important to distinguish pro-social sociopaths (mythopath or your favourite word here) from anti-social sociopaths, who are just plain old sociopaths."

      Doc, yes I do think we need to find a term to allow us to differentiate between what you call prosocial and antisocial sociopaths. Though, I don't think that "pro-social" fits the definition too well. While I do a good job with socializing with others, I can't really call myself "pro-social". I usually would rather not have to interact with people, it feels like going to work.

      "There's been some discussion that to be logically consistent one should distinguish, as well, mind-set from behavior in what are nominally called empaths here"

      I'm not exactly sure what you're asking for this one. Are you asking whether or not I believe that empaths should behave according to their mindsets in order to be logically consistent?

    23. Hi Tii, I do so much enjoy your discourse here, although sometimes I find it beyond exasperation (like your last reply to OldAndWise about self-respect).
      That does not matter to me at all, but it is still exasperating. Do you ever feel exasperated?

      You raise some many good points as often is the case: -that the axis to separate antisocial sociopaths from others -- who are not antisocial (what has been called pro-social) -- well that axis as it is may not be the best way to go about constructing a Grand Unified Theory of Personality.
      How's that for demigodness?

      I am hoping you can devote your concentration if full to the following picture:

      1. I'll call antisocial sociopaths "sociopaths". I'll call those with a sociopathic mindset and emotional structure: i.e. little to no emotions like shame, remorse, guilt -- response to negative feedback. Since I don't know what to call them I'll call them USocio, where U represents a string to be filled in.

      2. Can you offer some names For U? Once one gets a U, that means one has got an idea of what the fundamental differences are to separate out such people. In general this is called "principle component analysis". What are the main things that separate USociopaths from Sociopaths.

      3. Obviously that is only an interim step cause to get rid of stigma, one needs to get rid of the word "Usociopath". You suggested 'mythopath', and I like that.

      4. By logically consistence there is are different axes to separate people nominally referred to as empaths. I think its a common experience that different folks who identify as empaths come across to mythopaths and socios here. What would be the axes to separate them, they would have two different names.

      5. Finally there are those who obviously don't fit into such a simple description. There are for instance people like myself who are xpaths, cause they don't self-identify with any label attached to a clear and well understood meaning.

      6. there are other character types besides the unknown variable. Maybe omnipaths.

      Now, this surely looks like an obsession. Can you focus your mind quite intently on these questions? I have got no clue myself anymore. That is why I ask.

    24. ps Tii, and everyone else who has hacked through steps 1. to 6., a bit more if you wish to continue reading. The term "Grand Unified Theory of Personality" is only part in jest: I mean particularly personality in the context of social relationships, the interactions of the network of communication links that bind us. I do not refer to classical psychiatric or psychological notions of "defense mechanisms..." I mean purely in terms of observation of behavior, and secondly in terms of how people describe themselves and those around them.

      I agree with the sentiment of OldAndWise, of the notion of a recovering sociopath similar to the notion of a recovering alchoholic. A recovering alcoholic is simple to define: he or she does not drink. What is a recovering sociopath doing? It has some kind of end-point, a USociopath.

      And if you still have read all this and think this is all nonsense, please let me know.

    25. USocios- Untraditional Sociopaths
      TSocios-Traditional, uncaring, unfriendly, "evil" sociopaths
      Empaths- Most neurotypicals, those that "feel" the pains and joys of others, that are emotionally driven.
      BHMEmpaths- Butt Hurt Mad Empaths, those that have been hurt by TSocios and are in need of blood. They want to get rid of sociopaths around the world period. They do not give much thought, and aren't open minded enough to realize the fact that not all socios are TSocios. They do not care and their emotions have got the better off them.

    26. I like that as a starting point Tii, because it refers to how people see themselves and others here.

      Do USocios and Empaths have some things in common? For instance, open-mindedness, a willingness to make an effort to change and learn, or other things?

      Do TSocios and BHMEmpaths have some things in common too? Like close mindedness, or a sense that 'it's either my way or the highway", or if you are not with me you are against me?


    27. ps. I ask some more questions on this topic that fascinates me (as well as some others here) for anyone who wants to join in. I look at this as an online weekend workshop, a frank brainstorming session.

      I could have some guess as to what the answers might be, but it's important for me (and the main reason I am here), to get answers to questions from a wholly different perspective of human experience, inclinations... or what is generally called personality --

      but used here in the sense of how we see each other and how we see ourselves. So if it looks like my questions have some bias, that is only a mistake that I make. Please advise if I have asked the question wrong, or am asking stupid questions (an explanation would be appreciated but is not necessary) ...

      a. Where does hate fit into this picture? Do both BHMEmpaths and TSocios feel and direct more hatred into this world than USocios and UEmpaths?

      b. Where does a sense of superiority fit into this? (now this might be totally wrong the way I put the groups together...) Do both TSOcios and BHMEmpaths feel and demonstrate an offensive superiority, much more so than USocios and UEmpaths=Empaths used above?

      c. Can anyone ask anymore questions about this network of interactions at a large scale extracted from your experiences here and in the world at large?

      d. Does the term 'healing' have a similar (or are there some differences) meaning, and feelings associated with it for USocios and UEmpaths?

      e. What meaning (if any) does healing have for TSocios and BHMEmpaths?

      f. Are there more than two types of Empaths -- UEmpaths and BHMEmpaths so far defined? If so how would you differentiate them, and then give them a name composed as a "string{newlydefinedtypeofempath}Empath".

      g. Are there more than two types of socios, as per f?
      h. Is it possible to define other personality types that don't separate into principal components well, onto the AXES that separate TSocios and Usocios. If so can you assign some tentative name to these personality types?

    28. ps I believe that have more meaningful names for the type of people in our world, that is a correct set of axis to define personality types, and then assign names to the poles of the axes -- well that would reduce alot of the name calling to start with. I firmly believe it would lead to better understanding, and healing that can arise from a site like this. Dr. Ginger, Puppy Basket -- a few crisp remarks, as is your want would be appreciated, as well as all the others here.

    29. h. Do TSocios and BHMEmpaths have a strong tendency to externalize blame, whilst USocios and Uempaths much less? Does blame mean the same things to them? Are UEmpaths more likely to internalize blame than all the others? Do recovering TSocios internalize blame?

      pick your favourite questions(s), or your least favourite one(s)...

    30. Doc,
      GAWD this list. I guess I have to admire the interest and passion you show towards this topic, but dang, I have a feeling that pretty soon I'll see you on T.V in front of a crowd at the Lincoln Memorial shouting I have a dream.I have to admit, I'm working hard with myself to follow along with you instead of "whoops I didn't notice your comment"-ing it.

      Key for my explanations:
      *TSocio: Traditional Sociopath- The ones that live like the traditional sociopath stories that get passed down by people. They see others as NPCs of a game, and will only follow rules if it is beneficial to them, they will break, hack, reboot, and treat however they want. A TSocio may turn into a USocio.
      *USocio: Untraditional Sociopath- The ones who try not to live like the traditional sociopath for one reason or another. They usually have learned that people aren’t just objects, and try not to treat them as such. They also try to live according to the law, and to what the masses view as morally correct. They’ve realized that they are not the only players in this game, and will follow the rules but, once in a while, they might hack, make some few adjustments, and reboot the system to make things easier and flow more smoothly. Those changes are usually unnoticeable and untraceable, but thankfully are usually not aimed at hurting an innocent person. A Usocio may turn into a TSocio.
      *TEmpath: Traditional Empath- The type that many empaths want to believe they are. They stand for what’s “right”, and will follow what’s “morally” correct. They might not always be open minded to situations but, they will try to put themselves in the other persons shoes, and try to understand how the other person feels. A TEmpath can turn into a UEMpath.
      *BHMEmpaths (or UEmpath)- Butt Hurt Mad/ Untraditional Empaths. The majority of empaths. While they do try to make the effort to do the right, morally correct things all the time, their emotions sometimes get in the way. BHMEmpathy is often the result of unfair treatment where one is wronged after having trusted, or been nice to someone else. As a result to make sure that such a thing no longer happen, they are not so easy to be nice, and forget about playing fair, or doing the right thing. A UEmpath is not necessarily that way in all aspects or their life. A UEmpath can turn into a TEmpath.
      *Changes from a T to U can be the results of different things, which depends on the persons personality. It may also be a result of internal evaluation and the realization that one does not like his/her current wayof living. In other words the changes are unknown, untraceable, and can be the result of a shit ton of different crap.

    31. "Do USocios and Empaths have some things in common? For instance, open-mindedness, a willingness to make an effort to change and learn, or other things?"
      I would say yes. USocio's for their search of knowledge and understanding, and for Empaths' emotions and/or search for knowledge and understanding (emotions being they try to put themselves in even the sociopaths shoes, and about how they would feel in those situations).

      "Do TSocios and BHMEmpaths have some things in common too? Like close mindedness, or a sense that 'it's either my way or the highway", or if you are not with me you are against me?"
      I guess from my experience TSocios aren't necessarily closed minded, I think to be closed minded you need to display some passion or emotion towards a subject, enough that you believe you're right. A TSocio is mynded (evolution of the word ---> me minded, my minded, my-minded, myinded, mynded). There is no other mind or opinion to take into account. If I'm about to play XBox I don't ask or think about how the console feels when I use him for fun. There's no highway, it's my way or "where the fuck will you go?"
      A BHMEmpath on the other hand is just full of emotions, it's not that they are closed minded but, I guess they feel like "last time I was open minded I got screwed, so why will I do it again". IN a way I suppose they've lost the privilege to be open minded, and/or don't want that privilege anymore.

      --TSocios: Hate? What's that? When I play a video game, and one of the NPC (None Playable Characters, the computer ones) villagers piss me off I kill them. I don't hate them, they just got on my nerves, so I took them off of my nerves.
      --BHMEmpaths (UEmpath): AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH! WHYYYYYYY!!!??? I gave the chance and it backfired on me! Every time I try to be nice I get fucked, so no more Mr. Nice Empath. Next time player to comes along I will ridicule, put him down, and try my best to make him miserable.(BHWEmpathy is not a characteristic, it is based on a specific subject. It is provoked. One might show empathy towards everyone in school but, show BHMEmpathy towards the school bully. Not to be confused with closed mindedness).
      --USocio: Remember it's not an NPC, it's another player. I was told he might have his reasons for it, let's try to listen and give him a chance. Listening and trying to understand doesn't hurt. If it proves inefficient, will give him another chance again. If it keeps being inefficient and he keeps getting on my nerves, I will hack and reboot his system so that he never spams, glitches, or becomes a virus to me again.
      --TEmpath: Maybe he had a reason. Let's put ourselves in his shoes. How would I feel in his situation? What's the nice thing to do in this situation? AAAAHHHH! He keeps getting on my nerves....! I just want to... I just want to... punch him... in the... in the face! No, let's do what's right. If it keeps on happening, I will take the right, morally acceptable steps to solve this issue.
      (From my understanding)

    32. b)
      --TSocios: Superiority? Why? What is there to look down on? I can climb up a mountain, or dig down a mine... If the view doesn't change what's the point of doing either. Being inferior or superior to an NPC is pointless, what am I better than? The program?... Can't I just be "-erior" and keep playing this game the way I want, to achieve what I want?
      --UEmpaths: (Not really sure, but I'll give it a shot) I guess sometimes I feel superior or inferior. I mean I might be better than someone at one thing, and worse at the other. If we're talking about the better person, I guess I usually try to be good, and be the better/bigger person, but sometimes people take things too far. It's just that... I just don't like people messing with me. If I'm nice to you and you take advantage of that to hurt me, why should I be nice to you again. I mean... I'm not better than everyone, there are still people who are better than me I guess.
      --UScocio: Superiority? Why? What is there to look down on? I can climb up a mountain, or dig down a mine... If the view doesn't change what's the point of doing either. I know they aren't objects but what makes them or me better than the other. Sure, they make a lot of stupid mistakes because the follow their "feelings" and "empathy" still. Sometimes things don't work out how I wanted them to either, and sometimes because I don't factor feeling and empathy correctly into the equation. Plus, what makes someone superior or inferior? Status? Some poor people feel like the have the world because of their family, while rich people sometimes feel empty. Family? Some people have a family and wish they didn't, while some people without family don't want and feel glad that they don't have one. Friendship? That word has a pretty loose definition. I guess freedom would be the answer, but no one has true freedom. And, someone with true freedom doesn't feel inferior or superior, their is no need for such words.
      TEmpaths: (I seriously don't know but let's try) Well I guess I sometimes feel superior than others when I'm good at one thing, but I also sometimes feel inferior about something else. But anyways, everyone is made equal, so we shouldn't use terms like that. No one is bigger or smaller than anyone. Just try to follow your heart, and do the morally correct thing.
      (My understanding)

      --TSocio: Yeah. I heal. Everyone heals, look… If I hit this NPC, his life bar gets smaller, but then it starts to replenish. If I get a cut, after a few days it heals. I guess some wounds don’t heal though, like when you get paralyzed or die… Or similar things. Speaking of which, I have to get my phone refurbished.
      --UEmp: Yeah. I guess you can heal everything. I mean except like permanent wounds. If you’re paralyzed, or die I guess those can’t heal. Just like the knife that this bastard stabbed into my heart. No matter how long I wait, how much I tend to it, it’s still fresh open and bleeding. People say I have to forget so that it heals, but it’s easier said then done. But I guess there’s some hope.
      --USocio: (View TSocio’s answer, minus getting the phone refurbished.)
      --TEmpaths: Time heals all wounds! Sometimes it’s hard and takes longer, but it will get better that’s for sure.
      (My understanding)

    33. f/g)
      Yes, I’m sure there are many more types of empaths, probably sociopaths too for that matter. Those four terms are way to broad to take them too seriously for now. Naming them will probably take the rest of my life, and will be subject to constant updating and reevaluations, so I’ll live that job for some psych majors theses.

      I’ve realized that all I’ve done is separate high functioning, and low functioning sociopaths into groups that accepts to live their lives as the majority of people would say is “right” and “morally” correct. It could develop into something bigger with a shit load of passion, drive, thinking, and work but, that not really me. While I’m cool with helping, I won’t make this my goal.

      Socios (T&U): From what I understand, there’s no point in blaming, something happened, so be it.
      Empath (T&U): I’m really not the right person to speak but, based on my observations both usually don’t want to take the blame. T&U empaths aren’t so different. The only thing that puts them apart is that the U Empath’s feelings often get in the way of their judgment of right or wrong. Sometimes a person might be in a situation and act according to what benefits them, the Temp thinks, no they shouldn’t have it’s wrong. Then you place the Temp in that same situation and all of a sudden they become a UEmp (for that situation/ topic, not in all aspect of their life), because they had no other choice, or the person kept pressing the wrong button, or countless other possibilities.

      I feel like I just created a video game...

    34. Hi Tii, I haven't read in detail your comments yet, but I can already say I appreciate the effort you made. THANK YOU.

      Whatever effort one can contribute, large or small, skimming or reading in detail, well for me that's about relating each others dreams, if you will, to each other. Somehow i have the idea that most here share some dreams, and have our own too. I asked you because I find you so clear in your thinking process. And to be honest if there were a speech one day to be made about anything that could be learned, I'd vote for someone else. Maybe you?

    35. Tii, that was awesome and funny too!

      food for thought, munching... and a video game, what a great idea.

      "It could develop into something bigger with a shit load of passion, drive, thinking, and work but, that not really me. While I’m cool with helping, I won’t make this my goal."

      it's a cooperative effort amongst a group of people with vastly different personalities that makes progress, to whatever degree it will be, happen. As long as it's fun.

  13. Pure evil, its a state of mind that one experiences. Its really not separate from good. Hard to explain.

  14. As I previously stated before.. if a person does evil he/she was evil all along. Just because you write things eloquently to appeal to the defense of a socio.. You still have to call a spade a spade. You are a socio.. you can or probably will do evil because of your lack of feelings or remorse. That is great you are facing what you have and dealing with it. I would not put the guard down so easily.

    Just like you have no feelings in watching an animal die or thinking evil thoughts in your head of what you would like to do to someone. Thoughts turn to actions. That's why there is a tendency to keep socio either in institutions or keep them behind bars. When I see a socio be totally rehabilitated. I'll believe it then.

    1. Lots of diseases like MS and some types of cancer, bipolar, schizophrenia... (and many more) are considered incurable, but they do go into remission with treatment and in some cases without treatment, for years if not decades.

      Do you believe that medicine only makes a difference when a patient is cured? What is 'totally rehabilitated' -- you mean they are on their way to being a saint. What is your standard? How would you define 'totally rehabilitated'?

    2. If thoughts turned into actions there would probably 3 people left on the planet and the only reason they were alive was that they were to geographically separated to kill each other.

    3. 1. "You still have to call a spade a spade.:" Agreed, I am.

      2. "Thoughts turn to actions." Some thoughts turn into actions and some don't. The persons writing here to exterminate sociopaths have thoughts that way but would never commit that action themselves. Or would they, maybe I am being to generous?

      Have you ever had a thought of murdering someone? I have, more than once, it passed... Have you ever thought of suicide, or cheating on your taxes, or many other incarnations of nefarious acts?

      "I see a socio be totally rehabilitated. I'll believe it then." When I see some evidence of flexibility and thought from you, I'll believe it then. I don't expect you will be totally rehabilitated, and I couldn't define total rehabilitation myself, so it is a meaningless, unmeasurable term.

    4. ps I didn't mean to imply that suicide is a nefarious act. It is not. My point is simply that people can have extreme thoughts, and most do in fact have them if they are honest with themselves and are older than 25. They are not acted on because people have many other thoughts. I don't think it is reasonable to define the character of a person by the frequency and extremity of some of their thoughts...

    5. Suicide can be a nefarious act if the point is not to end ones own suffering but take revenge on the people you think are the cause of you suffering by causing them to suffer. Narcs sometimes threaten or even carry out suicides (or murder suicides) as a way to control people (family/mate) or cause them to suffer (usually leaving a suicide note blaming the victim for everything (their own crappy behavior).

    6. You do raise a good point though. If one's thinking gets too rigid and you keep replaying ideas they will one day spill over as actions (serial killers or rapists). Even if they don't you can become paralyzed by them (depression). Zealotry is another case study of this as is social anxiety. That is why people can't think themselves sane. Without breaking these patterns of thinking we become obsessed. We then either let it spill outwards and do something bad, or internalize it and become paralyzed.

      This applies to all people not just sociopaths. We just seem to rationalize it better to ourselves to the point where it is harder for us to break out of the destructive pattern of thinking than most other people. It can however, be done. It takes a willingness to change, an understanding of what needs to be changed, outside help (most effective is people who have made the change successfully themselves) and a dedication to keeping the change active in your life by assisting others to change when they ask for help.

      "you can or probably will do evil because of your lack of feelings or remorse."

      This is not exactly how it works. Everyone can do evil. Many people with a sense of guilt do evil and then rationalize it. Sociopaths don't hold a monopoly on evil. We just get better press. Emoters don't hold a monopoly on good. I get told all the time that I am the nicest person someone knows. Marvel at that. My actions and willingness to help people are what is causing this. I am more than my disease. There is always the chance that I will fall into old patterns and I sometimes do. I have people who will call me on my bullshit and I MUST admit I fucked up again make amends to them if I am to continue on this path. I am human and make mistakes. So do you I bet.

      My question to you. What do you personally do when you have hurt someone else Anon? Do you go to the trouble of admitting your fault and try to make it right? Do you do this EVERY DAMN TIME? I have to. Do you spend a lot of time trying to make yourself a better person? Do you attempt to help those less fortunate? Justify your existence to me as you are insisting I justify mine to you. I have worth. I have made the world a better place one little damn thing and some big ones one at a time. I work at becoming a better person every damn day. People are alive today because I overcame my programming and gave a shit. People are leading happier lives in big and little ways today because I reject your assumption that I cannot change. Some of those people also passed on the good I did and even more people live happier lives.

      Justify yourself Anon. Stop for one moment being so concerned with how I function and look at yourself. I had to and I am working with a handicap here but that is all it is. I have dyslexia and I managed to get top grades in English and math despite having to work ten times harder at and learning ways to compensate for the fact that I can;t spell or read number right.

      I will never be able to spell. So what? I am a published author. I have won writing contests. I overcame my disadvantage to be recognized in the very field that I suck in for the simple reason that I do not accept that I cannot. I am doing the exact same thing with my life. Fuck my "handicap" it does not define me and I can excel past its limits with hard work and help. I can become better at doing shit that a person with an advantage in their same area has because I refuse my to see myself as limited. I rise to the challenge. This is not ego but bullheadedness. You don't get to define me.

    7. A quick question Anon. Is the reason you think I cannot act good without a emotional reward for doing so because if you personally had your endocrine system damaged and had to live without it as I do that you immediately go out and do all the bad stuff that you really want to? Be honest here. If yes then I feel sorry for you and somewhat scared of you (well intellectually anyway). If no then WTF? If you can function that way why can't another person. I really can function this way. Buddhist monks do too. Hindu gurus do. They remove all emotional connection and do good deeds and assist others for the reason that God said do it. No other motivation whatsoever. So there are people all over the planet doing this.
      Take some time for self reflection my friend and check your motivation. Why are you so attached to this rigid thinking that people can't change? People change everyday,some for the better and some for the worse.
      Please take some time and formulate your thoughts and self examination of why you think like this personally instead of just trying to rationalize your viewpoint or repeat yourself cause that is just mental regurgitation. I really am interested.

    8. Now lest you think this is apologism or an ego wank let me be clear. I would have none of this today without a higher power working through other people to bring me to this point. It is NONE of my doing. Without a higher power I have no higher purpose and would be a you say doomed to evil. That alone is the defining thing. I don't put myself forth as an example for ego feed. I am well aware of what I am. I do it so others can see it is possible. All the glory and credit are God's. I am a humble chess piece and as long as I remember that I will do fine. It is when I forget that I stumble.

    9. Puppy Basket wrote: "I have people who will call me on my bullshit and I MUST admit I fucked up again make amends to them if I am to continue on this path. I am human and make mistakes. So do you I bet."

      As humans we learn from positive reinforcement and also, I think primarily, from making mistakes, and then realizing we made them. I acknowledge mistakes primarily for myself, just as I believe you do. (please clarify if I get something wrong.)

      It's a kind of internal housekeeping, and avoids an apocalyptic spiral of justifications heaped on rationalizations heaped on antagonism, heaped on self-righteousness, heaped on... It's like I have to stop to pick up items on the floor regularly otherwise I just end up stumbling over them as they accumulate...

      This also helps relationships with others if they feel they have been wronged. It shows human fallibility and a degree of honesty, sincerity... [At least many people see it that way] -- being able to acknowledge mistakes is the first step to changing behavior -- and that is largely a selfish interest in my case. I think Puppy Basket may be more pro-social than I am from what she writes...

      It's the association of mistakes with 'fault' that bothers me, personally, because one meaning of the word 'fault' is "an unattractive or unsatisfactory feature, especially in a piece of work or in a person's character." I don't consider it unattractive that a person admits to making mistakes, quite the opposite. I find admitting mistakes, endearing, intelligent, mature and many other positive things.

      That, in my view is why a term like 'mea culpa' can trigger in a reaction in some people -- since it could imply that the person being apologized to views the one apologizing as unattractive, which is often not the case, and was not here.

    10. Doc I have faults. If I don't acknowledge them I will act on them and cause harm. They are unattractive features of myself and I must recognize them as such. The trick is to not act on them, not let them drive my behavior and if I slip up and indulge them so to speak to take ownership of that and make an amend promptly. I don't view this as a negative thing or feel my faults are a reflection of who I am, as long as I acknowledge and fix my mistakes. Beating yourself up for erring is something both scoio and non socio will slip into. Self flagellation is non-constructive behavior. I no longer indulge in that. Goddess and Guru will forgive me any transgression if I am willing to be repentant, how then should I not be like like them and forgive myself?

      Everyone should give themselves the luxury of making mistakes. How else will we learn? The trick is to recognize and not repeat and to make sure any harm done is mitigated or fixed. I must watch my behaviors carefully since my self awareness can be low and rationalization reaction is so high. If I find I am doing one particular "negative" behavior repeatedly then it is time for a more serious course of action. I must find someone who has overcome the negative behavior, admit to them that I am having a problem with it, look for the root cause, become willing to have that facet removed, pray for removal and do the suggested action plan to remove/not repeat and then do daily maintenance on it. (short version) This is how I grow. So I don't see it as a negative thing.

      If I am not honest about a fault I will rationalize it. I will then keep doing it and excuse it to myself and lie to others to cover it and then have to move to another circle when I am caught repeating the action and then do it all again and it is just fucking stupid and exhausting when I can just fucking fix it and maybe learn something and grow from it instead.

    11. Hi Puppy Basket,
      I recognize much of what you say. What I was trying to get across is that it is one thing, in any given situation, to believe that one has acted on a fault (faulty action) , and another to believe that the OTHER person believes you have a fault, or have exhibited a fault in that situation.

      Does that make sense?

    12. ps my view is that we (unless we are godlike creatures) all have faults, but only some of them are unattractive (to another particular person). As well, not all mistakes are attached to unattractive faults, unattractive either in the eyes of the beholder or of oneself. That has been a big issue for me, which is why it struck a nerve.

  15. The Tao doesn't take sides, it gives birth to both good and evil.
    The master doesn't take sides; she welcomes both saints and sinners.

    1. That's awesome Anon 9:07! Can I ask you to pick a temporary name? I often just skip over Anon posts.

      For my own selfish edification, until I can identify a name chosen by you, I'll refer to you simply as TaoHow, so I can search and find posts that I think might be you.

  16. Did this blog get overrun by niggers?

    I guess it was bound to happen eventually.

    1. When you get to the bottom you go back to the top of the slide..

    2. If you're referring to the scrolling... Yes exactly.

    3. Yes it did and we gonna negro up this blog. You best run along Anon before we taint you.

  17. Only a ginger can call another ginger ginger

    1. I think everyone should be able to call a ginger ginger. What makes gingers exceptional to the rule? It's like saying "only Frenchmen can call another Frenchman 'Frenchie'.

      I understand what you mean but, if gingers, niggers, crackers, chinks, spics, and everyone else in between keep getting butthurt over name calling, how do they ever expect to get passed idiotic disputes.

    2. It's a song XD. That guy is clever as fuck.

  18. OldAndWise (where is she?) referred to Tii's description of physical intimacy as 'so selfish, so selfless'. I guess it goes without saying that socio type people have an easier time acknowledging their selfishness than empath type people. It's kind of funny, the way I see it now, is that for empath type people to become more selfless (maybe pro-social is the same thing maybe not), they first need to fully understand and acknowledge their own selfishness...


    1. I would agree with you but, I think that all sociopaths are aware and acknowledge their selfishness. The only thing is they don't give a crap about it. There is no reason for them to be otherwise. Many, if not most, see people as toys. Who is generous to their toys? Why should I be anything but selfish if the only things surrounding me are objects? Why should I care that objects see me as selfish? I am selfish and there's no reason why I should be otherwise. <----- I'm pretty sure that that is the thought process of most sociopath who aren't pro-social. That used to be mine.

    2. Tii wrote "that used to be mine." Can you say a bit about how that change happened in your case? Tii, anyone??

    3. Doc,
      In my younger years (middle school), I spent my time annoying and wrecking shit for other people. Most of them hated me by the end of the first semester in 6th grade, a feeling they carried until late into 8th grade. I got people in trouble by provoking them, slandering, pranking, and practically being a pest (without myself ever getting caught, or smiling my way out of punishments). The crowd that hung around me were the rejected that didn't get along with the popular group, or the majority. It was fun while it lasted, and though at first I didn't care enough to change my ways, I quickly realized that the rejected group weren't exactly going to get me anywhere, if I wanted to go far I needed to be where the connections were. So late into my 8th grade year pranking and wrecking got old, I practically dropped (not really but just didn't stick around as much) my old friends, and started acting more aloof. I didn't very much care enough to bother people anymore (to interact with people as a matter of fact). If people came to me, I would easily be nice and cool though.

      When I got into high school, I immediately blended into the French group (which by the way was part of the popular group in middle school). I was more relaxed, distant, and friendly when people came to me, people like that characteristic of me and I easily became friends with most people I talked to within the first few minutes. Around 12th grade my friends and I started smoking weed, around that time I also decided that I was tired of the bullshit the Church fed me, and started reading the bible on my own. While I had always been interested in different cultures, I now also became interested in the different religions, ethics, and moral beliefs of those cultures. I started reading more books on religion, spirituality, and philosophy (which I had always been interested in too). With that my current way of thinking, which became a lot more logical than before, and a lot less judgmental was born. While I had been morally grey in many aspects of life because I didn't care enough about how people lived their life, I now became morally grey because I'm extremely open minded.

  19. A quote from a previous article on sociopathworld:

    "Come, let me know whether thou art a creature of good or not.”
    And the creature replied: “I am a man.” “What kind of a man art thou?”
    Such as thou seest me to be: I am by no means otherwise.

    From a romantic poem believed to have been written by Chr├ętien de Troyes in the 12th century called "Yvain, le Chevalier au Lion".

  20. Puppy basket, you asked for ideas about separating a narc from his victim. I actually have experience in that field! Oops, not as innocent as I sometimes sound, but there is a big difference between understanding cluster b people intellectually, and actually being personally, emotionally targeted by one. And my apologies for equating sociopaths and narcissists here, but from an external perspective, they do share quite few common traits. But I digress.
    Turns out I can get very inventive when somebody threatens the emotional health of somebody who is dear to me. The person I am talking about is very strong, very giving, very energetic, so being in the grip of a narcissist, especially a very intelligent one, does not mean you are weak in the least. The "victim" may have a very strong sense of self and trust her own judgment. It might be hard to talk to her directly. You might reinforce her love for the narc, in the sense that she will go in the "nobody understands him, nobody understands our love, I will save him" type of thinking. Especially if she is pregnant.

    You did not give much detail, so hard to say if what I am saying will be useful. If he is an intelligent narc, he must have a narcissistic supply outside of his girlfriend/mate, and in my experience this will be his Achilles tendon. Get him by taking his narc supply away, or show him that you are willing and able to do it and he will unravel, and perhaps show his true colors to his mate. Only after she believes their might be something wrong with him or the relationship will you be able to approach her and help her consolidate that belief. Mes deux centimes.

    1. That was pretty much the solution I cam e up with and you summed her situation up perfectly. The only problem is she has no safe place to go and being pregnant this poses another obstacle.

  21. Your thoughts make you what you are even if you try as you may to show your actions otherwise. That's just a front. End of story.

    Rehabilitate? nah.. socio cannot be rehabilitated. does the thought to cheat on my taxes creep into my head.. no.. absolutely not. I guess I'm a rules girl. I see things happen all the time & I always say.. dang that thought would not have crossed my mind!

    1. Anonymous at 4:59PM,
      Do you consider yourself to be a better person than all socios, because none can be 'rehabilitated'? It seems like a judgemental position you take. Is it correct that you judge all socios to be inferior human beings to you?

      And also, do you consider yourself to be better than folks who have the occasional thought to cheat on their taxes (but do not do so), or to cheat on their partner (but do not do so), or to call in sick sometimes when they are fed up and want a break from work.... or any of the myriad ways one can disobey 'rules'.

    2. I thing there's less than a handful of socio's that want to rehabilitate...

    3. Unless they could see where it was to their advantage maybe? You don't actually quit being a sociopath you just become more than your programming.

  22. Tii, your understanding of self respect is weak to say the least. The 2 examples you gave over the past really suck (..) They actually sound more like personal fantasies, perhaps even drunken fantasies.

    A better and more common way of putting it would be that most of us would not prostitute ourselves out of self respect. But faced with a life and death situation, we just might. Can you not personally relate to this? It is both emotional and physical self respect that prevent us. Would you prostitute yourself and why or why not?

    I read an autobiographical book called "au nom de tous les miens" where the author describes having to hide for hours at the bottom of a latrine to escape from a concentration camp, with parts of his body submerged in pooh, and more falling in as the hours went. Not something anybody would do at any price, I should think. But when push comes to shove.. you gotta do what you gotta do.. This second example has more to do with physical self respect. Do you find it easy to relate to?

    1. OldAndWise,
      I still can't relate exactly. I find nothing wrong with prostitution, and no reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to do it, or be looked down for it. What makes prostitution any less than other jobs. A waiter sell you his body and time for money, a maid sells her body and time for money, teachers, doctors, and many others do, so why is it bad when a prostitute does it. Because she sells her body for sex instead of for cleaning your floor? If I was to have sex with many girls on one night, people would think of me as a player and among other things, but very few would really look down on me. So why is it that as soon as money is exchanged it makes the act bad. To tell you the truth one of my research papers for college last semester was about how and why prostitution should legal and seen like any other job.

      I myself would not become a prostitute. Why? Because, I don't want to. I would also not become a doctor because I don't want to. I don't see why self respect should stop one from becoming a prostitute. People say, if you're a prostitute your clients won't see you for who you are, they will see you only as an object for what you do without caring about how you feel. Well shit, when I go to the doctor I don't see him for who he is either, nor do I care about how he feels. I came to get treated, not to be his therapist, that someone else's job. It doesn't make a difference to me whether a lamp treated me or whether a doctor did, all I need is for the job to be done.

      For the second scenario, no I wouldn't. The fact that I can drown in shit inside the latrine, and still die would stop me from doing it. Second, how do I get out, I doubt a Nazi would be kind enough to pull me out. Third, escaping that way would never have come to my mind, that's just putting yourself knee deep in shit (pun intended). Anyways, with my attitude I would have been killed long before I ever had the chance to try such a thing. Plus, from my perspective, I really don't mind dying, I'll take a bullet over sleeping in shit any day.

      The cost outweigh the benefits. I'd die instead. I'd attempt to run away at nigh, if I make it good, if I get shot "Oh well..."

    2. Sorry folks, hookers are gonna be replaced by sex bots ; ) It'll be like the Jude Law character in AI :):):) Sounds so much better than dealing with human relationships.

    3. Why do you object putting yourself knee deep in shit? It is physically uncomfortable and repulsive, right? If you did not have a sense of smell, would it be easier?

      Normative people object putting themselves in an emotionally uncomfortable/repulsive position. Prostituting yourself, or more to the point having sex with people you don't like and from whom you derive no pleasure is seen by most as emotionally repulsive. Self respect prevents you from putting yourself in an emotionally repulsive situation. Putting yourself in those situations erodes your drive to pursue healthy emotional connections, just the way putting yourself knee deep in shit might damper your appetite for some time...

      Am I making any sense?

      You do make good points when comparing prostitutions with other jobs, though. Logically, all those equate. Emotionally, they do not, again for most people. Some people do enjoy prostituting themselves, when they get to choose their clients. Those people, even though they might be seen as having low self respect by society, probably do not suffer from the same emotional erosion, so I find not much objectionable with this, really.

      You say people would not look down on you if you had sex with many girls in one night. I am assuming you are thinking cute girls towards whom you feel some kind of attraction. What about ugly ones that are not attractive? Would people still think you are a player?

    4. OAW,
      Yes, because it's uncomfortable, and somewhat repulsive. Though, I feel that if someone were to promise me enough money to live the rest of my life exactly the way I want to, I think I would have been in that whole a lot faster than if it was for survival.
      For sex with ugly girls: People would probably think it's pathetic and that I'm picking the easy ones out because I can't do better. Easy referring to ugly enough that most would not have sex with them, so they jump at any chance they get. Though I'm not confident I would get excited if the world was ugly, might be a bit hard to work with a limp cock...

    5. But like I mentioned on the other thread. I don't think I have any self respect, I'm not surer it comes with sociopath traits.

  23. made me laugh...There are bot-like babies: People in the “reborner movement” buy incredibly human-looking baby dolls for as much as $4,000 — sometimes outfitted with heartbeats and chests that rise and fall — though they want the babies to protect and nurture, not to exploit sexually. If an entrepreneur started up KidSexBots-R-Us, would it be legal?

    1. I don't see anything wrong with it. No one's getting hurt. Same way with sex animals. The guy who makes Real Dolls won't make any animals for people who are in to bestiality, but personally I don't see anything wrong with it. Better than them goin out and screwin a dog.

    2. Ultimately such machines will learn to mirror, and therefore mimic human sexual response and hence appear to affectively experience intimacy. In bits and starts, but one day. They will operate sociopathically to achieve this ultimate product of human creativity.

    3. Dr. Ginger, I didn't mean to imply there is anything wrong with it. I am morally neutral on it. My point is simply that it is going to happen eventually I believe, probably first in Japan.

    4. ok poll: how many women here would do a Chippendales robot, and how many men would do a hot, Marilyn Monroe sex bot?

    5. The only problem with child-sex-bots is they would not totally "do it" for a real pedophile. It is about the power for them. Just like rape (well it is rape). It would cause more problems than it solves by reinforcing the behavior in the pedophiles mind. I have no qualms about the petbot sex though. I always bought the party line that pedophiles are incurable should be put up against the wall like us. Even though we know that they are just replaying childhood trauma too. Now that it might me my ass up against the wall next to them for the same reason I might have to rethink this.

    6. Chippendale's robot Doll? TAKE MY MONEY ALL OF IT NOWNOWNOW

    7. I read somewhere that many people who sexually abuse children are not actually pedophiles (i.e. people who are attracted primarily to children). Many people who sexually abuse children pick them because they are easy targets, not because they have otherwise a specific sexual obsession with children. It's important to separate this out. I was quite surprised when I read that too.

    8. lol @ puppy :P

    9. Open a fantasy-land store of alternate reality, where people can experience all their sexual fantasies (group sex anyone?) in safety and privacy and obviously no strings attached. They'd be programmed to adapt to each person's desires. I"d go for a collection of different kind of bots at different times, maybe with a partner, maybe by myself in robot-fantasy-land. Never a dull moment.

    10. A fetish for sexbot porn?

    11. I don't think it's a fetish, I think it's our future.

    12. why do you think it's our future?

    13. because all the futurists like Michio Kaku keep talking about stuff like this. Not just sex bots, but very extreme changes like being able to download our personalities on to a computer. Aren't you keeping up on any of this? ;)

    14. Dr. Ginger, it's a fascinating dark topic you open here, a future with sexbots. About Michio Kaki, I can only say that as someone with a scientific background similar to his (so I can vouch for what he says in fields close to theoretical physics) -- well I am somewhat envious of the amount of money he is able to make spewing out fantasies, to catch popular attention, to amuse himself, for whatever reasons. The further one goes forward in time the less likely it is to predict anything at all!!!

      After all no one predicted the internet, so no one predicted the existence of this website until the point that it actually happened -- till it grew.

      About downloading personalities onto a computer. Yes I agree it is possible at least an approximation of our personality. But then one must have proper definitions that are relevant to personality. Yes?

      So just for the fun of it, do you consider yourself a TSocio or a USocio or a BHMEmpath or a USocio, or do you not separate clearly on the Socio-Empath axis? I'll take a random stab at a name... (just for fun). Somehow I like omnipath for you. Openmindedandobservant(O)dark(D) like socios, mixed(M) doesn't separate clearly on the Socio-Empath axis.

    15. Ok, xpath here finally able to make a guess at a 'type' of personality
      Openmindedandobservant(O),Introvert(I), S(often as necessary separates thoughts from feelings)Empath so now has a temporary definition for me

    16. Dr. Ginger wrote "very extreme changes like being able to download our personalities on to a computer. " As anyone types here they are beginning a draft of their personalities written onto a set of computers. To some degree it already exists, or you can say that the process has started.

    17. “well I am somewhat envious of the amount of money he is able to make spewing out fantasies” had to laugh at this : ) : ) : ) …I have thoughts like this too….like guys who kill prostitutes. Makes me mad, and one would think it’s because it triggered my feminist side, but secretly I’m envious :P :P Like god damn it, you got to have that experience of killing someone.

    18. people have been predicting the change sexbots will bring for a long time:

    19. I know for sure I'd take a visit at a botel (robot/brothel) at least once. Of course, I imagine there would be no risks of STDs.

    20. Dr. Ginger, about "you got to have that experience of killing someone." How do you imagine that experience? Is it the ultimate power one can have over someone, the power of their life or death? Is it a thrill, somewhat like a sexual one??

    21. haha a botel...I live about four miles from a's legal where I'm at.

    22. Everything is about power with humans. I love allegory too. If I wanted to kill someone I would have to send them a bouquet of white lilies.

    23. Hi Damaged, it turns out the smells are very important to sexual arousal, much more so with women than men. men tend more to the visual... so the sexbots would have to secret the correct mhc complex set of pheromones for the individual or partner customers. particularly for women... and the whole notion of safety would be finally reliably solved because companies would be legally obliged, and liable to humongous lawsuits if anything went awry.

    24. ps just think about going for a jog or a brisk walk, and collecting your sweat on a cloth. Then snap that cloth into a plastic bag, put it in the freezer and then collect some more later.

      Then mail your sweat collectionoff to botels where you have had success, and then anytime a sweat bot is chosen by a client who favours your 'smell', you'de get $50 or $100 into your paypal account.

      We don't know all the pheromones yet and often what people claim are pheromones, well let's say there alot of controversy, where other say they haven't proved the case...

      but real sweat, purified appropriately and administered to clients, with donors who are paid... It's the next step up from semen.

    25. I'm pretty visual...I like the Chippendale dancers :P

    26. I'm sorry, but if you put a woman in a room with a 40 year, fat, balding, out of shape guy next to a 25 year old Chippendale...who they gonna go for...mmm hmm...exactly.

    27. Dr. Ginger about "Everything is about power with humans. I love allegory too. If I wanted to kill someone I would have to send them a bouquet of white lilies."

      This looks indecipherably cryptic.

      Are you saying that the only element to human relations is power, or that power plays a larger or lesser degree in various facets of human relationships?

      Is that a bouquet of white lilies before killing them, or instead of doing that...
      And anyway what is the allegory?

    28. Dr. Ginger, yeah esp if that 40 year old balding fat slob has had a shower in days. Run for the hills! I try to imagine being able to pick a sexbot who looks how I want, smells how I want, talks how I want, moves how I want...

      no person on earth could match that.

    29. I've had the experience of subtly hinting at first, not getting a response, and then spelling out that it was impossible for me to be physically intimate with that person until they "had a shower, washed your groin carefully, under arms too, cleaned out your nose, washed your hair, and brushed your teeth"

      even though they were horny as hell, they could not bring themselves to do this. And then I ended up associating to them a horrible smell, even when they did not smell so bad. AND THAT WAS IT FOR THE SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP.

  24. Empathy for pedophiles! -- no seriously folks, pedophiles being people with strong sexual urges for children.

    Whether such people are born or made isn't the point. These proclivities get set probably somewhere in adolescence and are highly resistant to change, if that is possible at all. The evidence seems to suggest pedophilia, as a sexual orientation if you will, is incurable. This is not the same thing as saying that sexually abusing children is incurable.

    So, have you ever considered being a person who has no legal outlet for their sexual urges? What would you do? If it were me, I would buy a pedobot.

    1. exactly...people need outlets

    2. lol a pedobot

    3. some evidence suggests that shame attached to sexual urges for children, and the secret furtive life that this can lead to, is one factor responsible for a person becoming sexually obsessed with children.

    4. Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation though. It is a pathology of control and power that got wrapped into the shame and helplessness from their own abuse drives the pedophile not a true sexual desire. Perhaps if they were able to detach the sex part from the power/shame/obsession part they could find healing. Not suggesting they ever be left alone with children. Ever. Just that there are probably less people looking for a cure for them just like in sociopathy since most find it so repugnant that just labeling them evil and incurable feeds our moral need center. Mind you if I ever catch one in the act I will kill them without a second thought. It is more expedient and safer for a society to just permanently remove the true deviants than to attempt to cure them or contain them. As a pragmatic sociopath I do understand this intellectually.

      As someone concerned with my own survival this is why I am invested in finding a way for us to become "better". Neither the sociopath or the pedophile grew up in a vacuum. Some sort of abuse "created" the "monsters" that we are. If we want to stop "evil" we need to stop the root causes because monsters breed more monsters.

    5. People have barely taken any steps against pedophilia. "If they're under 18 it's a no" because they can be easily manipulated, or coerced into having sex is bullshit from my observation. Just as bullshit as thinking that because the person is over 18, they knew exactly what they were getting into and it's no longer manipulation but, now consent.

      About a year ago I went to a party. One girl kept coming up to me, hot, pretty smart (from our conversation), and horny as fuck. We talked and pretty soon it turned into making out, and then to her reaching in my pants. I wasn't much in the mood for sex, plus I had come to keep an eye on my friend who wanted to experiment with a drug he had never used before and wanted someone to keep an eye on him. So, though I kept making out, I pushed her hands away, and she took the opportunity to grab my hand and bring it to her tits (GAWD DX they were great). Reluctantly, I pulled my hand away. She said she was getting thirsty and asked if I wanted something, I said yah, so she left. Few minutes later, girl comes back with vodka (no lemon, no salt) because she's thirsty -.- guess it was the other type of thirsty.

      I' m thinking sure why not, not going to change anything, so we shot. After three shots, I notice that she sips and doesn't fill hers up, while mine is overflowing. So I test it out next shot I turn my head away, in my peripherals I notice she only does the motion but doesn't drink. She let's this go on g or another 6 shots. So I'm at 10, she's at like 3 and half. I'm getting prettybuzzy, while it's obvious that she is pretending. She puts the vodka away, brings wine, takes my hand and takes me to her dad's study. While I'm still able to walk, talk, and function pretty well my thoughts are hard to follow, inconsistent, and I can barely hear what anyone id saying unless I look at them and focus. We drink some wine, and make out resumes. This time, the last thing, I'm thinking about is my friend, plus I forget why I allowed her to get me drunk (which was to see if she was actually planning to do what she was now doing, and to see if I could resist). Make out turns into light foreplay, then shirts are off, her tits are now out and in my mouth, while my fingers are busy playing down elsewhere.

      Suddenly a flash of memory, my friend. I stop for a bit and tell her I need to check up on my friend, put him with people I can rely on and somewhere safe. I leave, wobbling towards my friend who had a change of heart and is only smoking weed. He's all excited for me because he saw me go with her, I sit down with him take a couple puffs and tell him about how horny she is and that she got me drunk and I'm about to have sex with her. I ask him if he knows her, he like yes it's ____'s little sister ( ___ being the girl throwing the party). I ask how old she is, he's like "I don't know man, last year she was 14, she must be 15 this year. But, she's hot as fuck, anyone would think she's like 18-20." He rambles on about weed bullshit, then tells me to have fun. BITCH JUST TURNED FIFTEEN! She had told me she was 17 turning 18 in two months. Talk about "she's under 18, she didn't know what she was doing". I serously taught about going in the room and fucking her anyways, but I figured if it came down to a court room, she's15, white, family pretty well off, while I'm black, and 6'2. Had to pick some other fruit off the tree, this one wasn't ripe yet.

    6. " many child sexual abuse offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia." wikipedia

    7. I feel like if the "kid" has sufficient knowledge about sex (anyone over 13) and they accepted to have sex with someone, it should be the same as if the person is over 18. If I'm from a country where it's culturally okay to marry a 14 year old girl even if I'm 21, because the younger they are the more babies they'll make, is that pedophilia? If I come to the U.S with her as my wife and I have sex with her, and she's okay with this because she knows she's my wife, she likes it, and I'm not bad to her, am I a pedophile? Is it still wrong?

    8. My view is that the laws related to consent are put in place to protect people, who by virtue of their age or other vulnerabilities, are more vulnerable to manipulation and sex under coersion. Not all of them, but many or perhaps most.

      It's also true that in countries where girls are married starting at age 14 or perhaps even younger, the level of female education statistically is much lower. The two go hand in hand. And lower female education is directly correlated to health, child mortality, life-span and GDP (and other things) of the whole country.

    9. True about female education. Let me rephrase, I bring my wife to the US, put her in school, alow her the same rights as other girls or women. Is what I'm doing wrong/ messed up, am I a pedophile because I sleep with her?

    10. Tii, your way of thinking is unusual and therefore interesting to me. One thing I have picked up on (in general, please correct if not the case) is that you tend to focus on hypothetical and extremely rare situations rather than much more likely situations that the law and 'rules' of society have to deal with. Laws cannot be limitlessly nuanced to deal with every conceivable situation.

      Here's a definition of pedophilia from wikipedia "Pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children, generally age 11 years or younger. As a medical diagnosis, specific criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13.[1][2][3][4] A person who is diagnosed with pedophilia must be at least 16 years of age, but adolescents who are 16 years of age or older must be at least five years older than the prepubescent child before the attraction can be diagnosed as pedophilia.[1][2]"

    11. note that this refers to attraction, not to acts. Acts are sexual abuse of children. Pedophilia is primary or exclusive sexual attraction to them.

    12. Ah... I guess I was arguing about statutory rape. But, I still think that if someone is only having fantasies without committing the act it should be okay. I feel that pedophiles shouldn't be looked down on for their fetishes, as long as they are not abusing anyone's (or their own) kids. If they're simply using Manuela or Manuel to satisfy their needs while they are thinking of kids, is it really wrong? I don't know if calling pedophilia a sickness is entirely correct. Of course it's an extremely inconvenient attraction that people should not act upon but, can we really call it a sickness or disorder.

      On another note, while on the subject, I heard (and also read to verify) somewhere that lolicon hentai (manga porn where the subject is a child... apparently with a huge fanbase) is illegal. While I do think that pictures or videos of actual children can pass as child pornography and shouldn't be done, I think it's idiotic to tag drawings as child pornography. I think it might actually have a negative outcome, while pedophiles could previously go home and use lolicon hentai to get off, now its illegal and they get arrested or fined for it. So over time that might build up some frustration until someone snaps and rapes all the kids in his/her neighborhood. Just my thoughts.

    13. Tii,
      There's a general, overall tendency to define personality in terms of personality disorders. The fact that psychiatry does not tend to look at personality relationally but rather as a property of a single person makes it even worse.

      I believe any form of thought police is immoral. So I agree with you "But, I still think that if someone is only having fantasies without committing the act it should be okay."

      The government can and should control acts (to limit violence for instance), and to a limited degree speech as well, but the government has no role in controlling or deciding which thoughts can be had and which thought's can't be.

      And all that stuff about 'evil thoughts' that are not acted upon, I don't believe thoughts are evil; making such a statement is acting as thought police, which in my view is a purely immoral act. period.

    14. ps I believe any form of thought police is immoral because it violates the principle upon which individual liberty in a free society is based. If people are not free to have their own thoughts, individual liberty does not exist -----> George Orwell, 1984.

    15. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, "

  25. I have empathy for pedophiles and pedophobes as much as I do for the indifferent.

    1. Right, but at the same time... I can't hate them.

    2. So you have empathy for sociophiles and sociophobes as much as you do for the indifferent?

  26. "“There is also an element of laziness in evil. It takes work to grow spiritually, and evil people are not willing to make the effort." Michael Fox, author.

    1. That feeds into the idea that just not doing good can itself be evil. A friend posted on another forum yesterday that they had found small children locked in a hot car and when they went to get the mother she was so wrapped up in her phone she did not even care she had almost killed her kids. Probably why she had done it in the first place. The friend ( a normative) stated that it made her lose her faith in humanity a little. I then pointed out that she and her grandma by helping those kids had restored my personal faith in humanity by the same measure. Everyone who walked that car and did nothing could be thought of as being just as evil as the mother who left them there in the first place for selfish reasons.

      Instead of Good and Evil I tend to place things into selfish and selfless. It takes the judgement part out of it. It boils it down to its true nature. Try substituting selfish for evil and selfless for good in anything you read or come across today as an "Intellectual exercise". Not just you personally Anon but everyone on the forum and see if it changes anything for you.

      True goodness has not element of apathy to it. To grow our spirit requires actions. Even someone born/created with a core selfish/evil personality can grow in the manner and become selfless/good. It might take more work though.

  27. "When you read the official diagnostic manual, in far too many cases the “illnesses” cataloged are nothing more than a description of the behaviour involved with the word “disorder” tacked on at the end. As a result, some criminal defence attorneys have even tried to exculpate their clients by claiming that they “suffer” from a “personality disorder”."

  28. Girls are such anorexics "oh no no I can't eat a cookie!! I'm gonna gain weight" pffft pathetic whores!

    1. Thank you so much for contributing that "nugget of wisdom" to our intellectual discourse.........

  29. Evil seems to be very "class-bound": small fish doing dirt get that label while war-mongerers/imperiaist oil-bandits do not? Rich folks are not evil when they laugh at dirty beggars, only "excentric"..?

    1. Good point. A street level hooker is evil and bad but a high class madame or call girl might get our respect. It is the reason that crack users were given longer sentences than cocaine users. Nope nope that one crack rock will get you 20 years with no chance of parole, since you can't afford the good stuff, while we will send this dude busted with ten times as much cocaine to rehab. Same drug on its base level. Like putting people in jail for marijuana when alcohol, which is so much more dangerous and kills 1 out of 10 people in the US, is perfectly legal.

  30. Does anybody know when M.E. is coming back? Or, even if she IS
    coming back? I only have the crudest computer and technical skills.
    I don't have twitter so I don't know what M.E. is up to.
    She has demonstrated that the blog can practically run itself.
    But I DO love M.E. very much, (See ending of film "Silver Linings Playbook.") and would like to know her future plans.

    1. Could this be a lab & and a "study" is in progress? The worst specimens get their own chapter?

    2. Puppy basket, I asked this question earlier, but I am repeating it because I think it is so important... You say that "to heal is more frightening or worrisome for us than anything else we have been through".

      Can you please explain?

      I have always thought when you start and nurture a friendship or any kind of emotional connection, you take the chance of getting hurt by it. I have said this to my mythofriend many times. Is what you are saying along the same thought lines?

    3. O&W Sorry I must of missed that earlier. To heal we have to do a number of things that most/all sociopaths and people in general probably would find repugnant. Inculded but not limited to. Looking at ourselves honestly, letting someone else's suggestions control our lives instead of our own "superior" minds. Becoming humble, moral inventory and amends. CHANGE in any form is repugnant to us. To reach the point where we are in any shape to begin the journey of "true" self discovery most sociopaths have to go through what ME and I did and take a damn good look at what our "good efforts" have brought us to in the first place. For me I hit bottom drinking for her she lost her job and some friends and took a long break from being her to observe herself without judgement. You then come to the realization that you can become more than a sociopath. I HAVE a disease I am not my disease.

      This involves breaking down our core illusions about ourselves. Not indulging in our favorite pastimes of manipulation and becoming aware of other people as people NOT objects put there for our amusement. This last one is a very hard nut to crack. If/when we accept that we are the equals of all people, not less, not more we are obligated to change our behaviors about them. I had to stop rationalizing the harm I do. Become capable of recognizing patterns of thought and behavior that are damaging to me and others and here is the weird part, not indulge them.

      As I have gotten older my control over the "feelings switch" has become not better but worse. I have been having problems the last few years turning it back on when I have at times before (like when I went cold turkey to sober up) not been able to flip the damn thing to off for 3-4 months.This is something they warn you about when you are sobering up. You are going to all of a sudden actually have to feel all the feelings you have had switched off for however long since you learned that behavior.

      Think about that O&W try and tell a sociopath that to heal they will actually switch back on and HAVE TO STAY THAT WAY until the they make progress. That they will have to stop doing everything that makes them who they are.

      Most stable sociopaths have a core personality, not usually complex, but it is the one they like. They will have "mirror selves" to deal with different social groups but when they are alone they will return to the stable state. That is one of the differences between us and Narcs. We can recognize our stable and mirror selves and differentiate. The Narc creates a single self construct aggrandized lie that it may be but they need this since they never track their own lies. We keep each lie in a separate file folder with the personality it belongs to. That core personality of ours is not grown from real life experience like a normatives. We designed it ourselves. It is our seminal work of art. You better believe we are attached to that construct! Now imagine someone told you that they know the construct is a lie and to heal you must do what they did and disassemble it and find the true parts and keep them and find the false parts and get rid of them. Scary as fuck right?

    4. Sociopaths come in two flavors O&W, driven and lazy. We all love nothing better than gaming a system though. I think maybe one of the reasons we look so hard for intellectual, artistic, monetary, social and adrenal reward is because we can't/don't receive emotional reward. We need our ego's fed and gaining these different kind of currencies is how we keep score in our game. Every sociopath thinks of life as a game and the idea is to win. What we consider win conditions are different for each person and mutable as our life circumstances change but they are always there.

      To truly change for the better we have to let other people win at this game and it is so very against our nature that is probably the most repugnant thing we can think of. Ask the others but I am pretty sure they will agree. Tii gave an example where he was willing to die instead of jumping into shit for one thing but would consider it if he would win enough money from it. So you can see that on the surface there are more reasons for a sociopath NOT to enter healing than to enter it.

      The reason I did was that I was shown immutable proof that a) It was possible and b) the people who had done it were having better lives (winning the game) than I had. c) They were not invested in my outcome.
      I could change or not they were devoted only to being there when I needed them and making suggestions that I could either adopt or not and letting me know the consequences of not and the rewards of adapting. They showed me the carrot and then handed me my own stick. I was responsible for my stick and they suggested I not hit myself with it too often. The punishment for not doing as suggested is failure. My personal failure I lose or win this game and it is ALL on me. If I do not help others win their personal game I am doomed to lose mine and all the rewards that go with it.

      They broke everything down really simple and let me know I get out what I put in. The harder I work the more I get. They will tell me only how they personally did things I am free to try it my way and please tell them about the results. (abject failure usually) Then they laugh and I can try it again until I find the path. (Following in their footsteps). It was terrifying, but I was never alone in my journey, my Goddess and the people who helped me were there every step of the way. I was not alone. I never have to be alone anymore. I can surround my self with helpful people some of whom are sociopaths some not and we can share the journey and learn form each other and share our vision of the infinite and it has become a beautiful life that I actually WANT to pass on.

    5. I agree with this part of Pup Bask's argument:

      "Sociopaths come in two flavors O&W, driven and lazy. We all love nothing better than gaming a system though. I think maybe one of the reasons we look so hard for intellectual, artistic, monetary, social and adrenal reward is because we can't/don't receive emotional reward. We need our ego's fed and gaining these different kind of currencies is how we keep score in our game. Every sociopath thinks of life as a game and the idea is to win. What we consider win conditions are different for each person and mutable as our life circumstances change but they are always there.

      To truly change for the better we have to let other people win at this game and it is so very against our nature that is probably the most repugnant thing we can think of. Ask the others but I am pretty sure they will agree. Tii gave an example where he was willing to die instead of jumping into shit for one thing but would consider it if he would win enough money from it. So you can see that on the surface there are more reasons for a sociopath NOT to enter healing than to enter it."

      Though, I would like to clarify one thing. The reason I would jump in isn't for money but, to live my life as I want. I think I've explained it before, a cabin, a small farm, and a small crop field in the woods in the country side, about 20 mins from a small town (which would be the closest town around). Somewhere where it's generally cool, with actual seasons, not like the tropics. Living my life without having to work for the man, but enough to sustain myself. That is where the money comes in, I can't imagine owning a cabin in the woods with a farm, a crop field and not having to worry about sustaining myself (my animals, and crops too) without having money. So if I was promised this life, yes I would have jumped in for it, if I was promised freedom and life more difficult than the one I had before the concentration camp, no thanks.

      Though, I don't agree that ASPD is a disease, disorder, or anything that need healing. That personality is what makes me the way I am, and I wouldn't change the way I am. If I see something that needs fixing, I fix it myself. Sure, I believe that people shouldn't live their lives to tramples on and hurt others, but that's not every sociopaths. I like the fact that my emotions aren't as extreme as most people's, joy and pissed off is enough for me. Sadness, love, heartbreak, passion, friendship, attachments, and missing people, sure I'm curious about how they feel, the same way I suppose empaths are curious about how sociopaths can remain so stoic in certain situation but, I have no need or want for them. I don't think that there is anything to fix in a sociopath, maybe teaching and explaining to them not to hurt others, but that advising not fixing. Teaching and explaining to a bully not to pick and hurt others isn't fixing him, it's showing him a more acceptable way of life. Now, if a bullygets sick or breaks something and goes to the hospital, the doctor will fix him. But, the way I see it, my arm isn't broken nor am I sick, why do I need any fixing?

    6. Puppy Basket, "So you can see that on the surface there are more reasons for a sociopath NOT to enter healing than to enter it." yes I am starting to see.

      "To truly change for the better we have to let other people win at this game and it is so very against our nature that is probably the most repugnant thing we can think of." I'm not really getting this. Is it that the game, and end-goals change to include a win-win. I mean is letting other people with at this game, mean that the socio is losing?

      Tii "Though, I don't agree that ASPD is a disease, disorder, or anything that need healing." Do you think there is a difference between personality type and personality disorder? I mean a mythopath wouldn't be diagnosed with ASPD, would he?


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