Saturday, September 18, 2010

Bad romance

I thought this was an interesting email from a reader regarding a recent relationship with a successful, powerbroker sociopath. There are a lot of stories about sociopaths wanting to scam or ruin the people they are in relationships with, but what about the sociopath who already seemingly has it all? What does s/he get out of the relationship? Could it be that a successful sociopath merely enjoys someone else's company? Or appreciates a fresh perspective, a companion who is "game" to try new things? And of course the question that has even less satisfactory answers, why would a "normal" person want to be with someone "abnormal" like that?
I am wondering if you can give me some insight. I've been involved with a man in a secretive relationship for two years. I'm married and so is he, although he strangely has a separate house in the same town. But pushing morality aside, here are the straight facts:

He is a highly successful and manipulative business magnate. He controls corporations, people, money, you name it. He has ruthlessly succeeded in business for two decades and while he no longer needs to work, he gets off on the associated drama. He loves the thrill of a fast take-over or money made quickly and effectively, regardless of what other corporation or career goes down in the process. He is the type of man you would never wish to cross in business or life. He's an eye for an eye kind of guy, and will do everything in his own power to see that 'justice' happens. Never with violence, but quietly and effectively.

He was married for almost ten years, but found he wasn't good at it. He has disowned his grown son. He is, however, loyal to a small group of friends he has known for many years. They have a roaring good time in business and life. Their unique views are similar.

But let's cut to the chase. He is the hottest, most passionate lover I have ever known. He is insanely erotic, but dominant at all times in the bedroom. Not S&M, but simply put, he is always in control. He holds intense eye contact during sex and is a deeply passionate kisser. But if not in the throws of passion, he is not remotely touchy-feely. He can be as cold as ice, but when he is hot, he's the hottest thing I've ever known - or will ever know.

I have struggled over the past couple of years to know whether he simply withholds emotion, because of the illicit nature of our relationship or because he is a true S or P (likely P in his case). At times I have felt that he loves me insanely, and at other times I question whether he knows how to play me to get what he wants.

Additional info... He admits to:

Lacking compassion
Not understanding people
Being awkward, despite his extreme charisma
Paranoia
Uncomfortable living with anyone
Secretive
Self-serving financially

There are many more things, but for the sake of privacy, I won't publish them here. Suffice to say, he'd get a gold star on the Hare check-list.

When I steal affection from him that isn't in the heat of the moment, he sweetly goes along, but in short order, he must soon pull away. I actually don't mind. I understand what his boundaries are. He was gentle but clear when he admitted that emotional and physical intimacy make him awkward. And yet, this man who professes to be awkward around people pursued me relentlessly for many months before landing me in the sack. I gave him every reason why we would and should never be together, but every argument I presented was counteracted with the most artful and intriguing response. It was an escalating and erotic debate that pulled me across moral boundaries I'd not crossed before. I caved, and I am no push-over. And two years out, I find that I've accepted personality traits I would never have accepted in the past, and I feel deep love and acceptance for him.

Empaths see the world through rose-colored glasses. Not this guy. He's taught me lessons in life that no normal person could possibly teach. We are in an insanely unique relationship and our cerebral connection is extreme. We spend hours discussing everything imaginable, including his highly checkered past. We also share a mutual zest for life and I don't judge or seek to change him. For clear and obvious reasons, I should fear him, but I don't. Through him I find clarity. I don't ever enrage him. I've learned patience, control and understanding like never before. I love him unconditionally and I loathe to admit that my interaction with my antisocial has made me a better person.

Tell me something: Can a sociopath truly love another, in their own way? He has never been unkind or cruel to me. He is brutally honest about who and what he is, although I've never asked him directly if he is a psychopath. I think I'm afraid of the blunt response that might be forthcoming. He does admit to being antisocial.

I sometimes think that if he is a P or S that he's hit the pot of gold in the relationship world. I have accepted every unique, wonderful and dark thing about him. I just want to know what I'm dealing with. I'm not even sure I would run if he is a sociopath. I get so much out of the relationship, in terms of intelligent and shrewd conversation and hot sex, that I seem compelled to stay for my own selfish reasons.

Thanks for any advice/thoughts/analysis you may have. I figure it's best to get it straight from the horse's mouth.
The same reader wrote me this update:
We have since split up. It was a tricky break-up for me, but clean for him. He brought down the hatchet quickly, and I didn't have a moment to respond. It took a couple of months, but he finally made contact and we have departed on good terms.

When I wrote the original letter, I was pretty sure of what I was dealing with, and I've researched more since then, and hung around this board. I no longer question what he is, and sadly, I better understand his capacity to feel the same things that I feel. But I'd love to hear feedback, particularly now that it is definitively over. But the 'over' was done with class and style from both sides, despite the chilling and brutal silence before-hand.

And finally, please tell me, is it ever really done with a psychopath? I should wish and hope for that, but sadly, I miss the excitement. I miss the ride. I miss the wild and hot sex and I miss him. Maybe I'm just a sucker with my own issues and low boredom threshold, complete with the need for drama and entertainment, but I loved the bastard. Truly, I did. It would be easier to feel anger after his abrupt dismissal, but I don't and will never fault him for what he is. And for what he is, he's damn good at it.

193 comments:

  1. Ah..

    Isn't it lovely what us sociopaths can do?

    "I miss the excitement. I miss the ride. I miss the wild and hot sex and I miss him."

    That's because he is unique. He got past your boundaries that you set up with concrete that only a few other men on this planet could possibly break down. He made you do what you did not want to do, and he made you like it.

    You loved how he dominated you, because your husband could not do that. He excelled ahead of your husband and you couldn't get enough of that. You liked his darkness just as much as he did.

    He was Dr. Love and you were Patient L.

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  2. It seems that the excitement is the largest element in many of these stories. So many of them take the excitement as freeing them from the tedium of their normal lives. What prevents some people from breaking from this pattern by themselves? Is it just complacency? Or is it a need to be guided, Pied Piper style? Whether Paradise or the Abyss is the destination seems irrelevant for most of these readers, so I'm curious about their reasoning.

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  3. All good things come to an end especially the really good ones. That's the problem with these relationships. They can be so intense and satisfying on so many levels, emotionally, physically and even spiritually, for me intellectually too…then POOF..they’re gone. Once you have been exposed to that kind of relationship it’s hard to expect less in the next. It sounds like he did have feelings for you and you were mature about not trying to change him or get inside is head to control him. It would have ended sooner if you tried to do that stuff. All in all it sounds like a nice relationship with the exception of the inevitable ending of it. I don’t know about the sociopath/psychopath part of it. He sounds narcissistic to me. He used to having things his way and that must show with his business image. He can afford to tell you the truth about himself because of his success and financial resources. If you didn’t want to be with him he would have just found someone else..maybe not as nice as you though. Sorry that happened to you. I would try to avoid being with him on the same level again because it will probably happen again. Let time go by and let those intense feelings subside and then you will see it for exactly what it was..a fantasy.

    Grace

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  4. All relationships end, inevitably. The very best ones end with someone dying. Not too encouraging at best.

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  5. Be glad you got away. You were starting to lose your sanity and dignity to this snake. He took half of your senses as it is, now you can finally get them back, and return to civilized life.

    If I were ever with a female that hypnotic I would get out as soon as I started to sink. There are better ways to deal with your boredom than dealing with a man who doesn't have respect for anyone. Then again, you guys did have that in common, you didn't have any respect for your spouses.

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  6. You don't want the thrill of a little danger in your life, Jesse? I could make you feel things you've never imagined. O.o

    And what's this? Adultery a sore point for you, Jesse? Why deny your animal nature? Marriage is the greatest crime of all... it makes relatives out of lovers.

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  7. Jesse McCartney, I like your comments. The moralizing is so... earnest. It's really funny. You called the dude a snake. You gotta admit, that's just too campy.

    The naivety of some of your comments on this blog are almost childlike. How do you get to be almost 30 thinking this way? Unless you are playing a game to amuse yourself by leaving comments here that you don't really believe. That's cool. Someone should play do-gooder here every so often, for shits and giggles.

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  8. You got something out of it. You realized what you really want in life. Unfortunatly you are left with a itch only someone like him can scratch, and he's a rare breed. Everything has a cost. Consider that the price you pay. The chances of him going back is slim to none. If he is a sociopath, their breakups from their end are pretty permanent.
    He broke up with you because you two were getting to close. Its not a coincidence that you felt so compelled by love that you researched him and emailed for advice, and then poof its over.

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  9. I was going to speak on jesse, but daniel seems to have the trash already taken out.

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  10. I'm a free loving spirit, pretty old fashioned, simple. I'm sorry I am not at the intellectual level of you sociopaths.

    I believe in all the comments I leave. Why else would I post them. Much like everyone here, there is no point in talking just to b.s.

    I take marriage seriously, and who ever I happen to pop the question to, I plan on staying with for the rest of my life, and being faithful. What's the point in marriage if your going to live it as if you were just dating with no real commitment. Marriage is commitment. I am going to be on the level of you guys here, and state that people who break marriage vows ultimately deserve to be unhappy.

    No offense doll(the woman who wrote this), but your losing him is something that should have happened a long time ago. Perhaps it was karma that the something "good" you thought you had was lost. If your husband isn't making you happy anymore, get a divorce.

    Postmodern, I'm a guy, I don't want any pleasures from you or any other males, thanks anyway. And no, no sociopath could make me feel better. It hasn't worked with my roomate, it won't work with any other girls.

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  11. You and your 20th century mores, Jesse... tragically boring. <3

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  12. She and her husband could discuss having an open marriage. Divorce doesn't always have to be the only option when spouses aren't getting everything the desire from one person.

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  13. Not a Swinger! LOL I am in an open marriage and I practice polyamory on the occasion that I meet someone with whom I wish to be in a relationship. I'm not a sexual swinger.

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  14. @Daniel
    How is Jesse naive when he said he would get out of the relationship with someone like the man described? If anything the woman who allowed herself to be seduced by the sociopath buisness guy and thought he loved her was naive. Jesse seems more willing to make the rational decision here.

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  15. @Porn Star

    It’s the sweetness and light, yet moralistic tone of Jesting Jesse’s speechifying that I find so amusing. And naïve. I wasn’t really paying attention to his recommendations for Anonymous Seductee #3,733.

    “People who break the marriage vows deserve to be unhappy.” Seriously? “I plan on… being faithful.” Who talks like this anymore? Even those normals who are moral don’t sound so young. God, Jesse’s purity promise ring must be old and grimy by now. Unless he gets it cleaned regularly. Who else but a virgin says these kinds of things on a blog called sociopathworld?

    Or maybe it is the exact opposite. Maybe he’s a jaded soul who has been so hurt by his misadventures that he is now wrapping himself up in a warm blanket of bland, middle class values to make himself feel better. That would be more interesting. The misadventures part I mean.

    Contrary to how my comments sound, I am not hating on the Vah-JJ. I find the whole “true love waits” vibe I’m picking up from his comments really precious.

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  16. Historically, marriage was for the purpose of forming economic liasons.

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  17. @Daniel: Jesse reminds me of this with a healthy dose of born-again virgin pontificating, sans the "born-again".

    Clearly he's very committed to his fluffy ideals, to the point of recoiling from any transgression, even implied. Honestly, who on the internet can't take a little gay flirtation in stride? Virgins and overcompensating "alphas", that's who.

    Jesse... obviously you're no alpha, so what does that make you?

    @Aerianne: That's the kind of utilitarian perspective I can respect. If you're going to tie yourself to some other heaving sack of flesh for the rest of your life, at least get a tax break out of it.

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  18. "Courtly love" was a medieval European conception of nobly and chivalrously expressing love and admiration. Generally, courtly love was secret and between members of the nobility. It was also generally not practiced between husband and wife.

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  19. Yes, I'm quite familiar. I actually built the entirety of one of my earlier relationships on such nonsense. She seemed to get a kick out of it, and I got laid. Win-win if ever there was one.

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  20. My advice for anyone considering marriage, is that you had better pepper your love with a healthy dose of reality.

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  21. Good advice Aerianne.

    I say pick a person you could live with and partner with on long-term projects. Love enough will likely grow over time.

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  22. I don't get it. You are in a open marriage, but you are not a swinger? Explain please.

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  23. I think swinging carries a more active connotation, whereas an open marriage is more passive.

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  24. That is such a romantic story, I love it ! Thanks for sharing it.

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  25. Jesse - few people go into marriage planning to cheat. Judge not until you've been hitched for fifteen years and have kids.

    But moralize away. It's a free planet. Well... now that's a whole other debate.

    And yes, Jesse - I'm the author of that story. And now I'll respond to the others....

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  26. So many of you have responded, and I thank you all. I also agree - it'll be a bitch trying to find anything even remotely satisfying on so many levels. I know, Jesse, I should be finding all that at home with my husband. If only life were like that. But you'll know one day, when you're with your beloved, coming home after a hard day at work and your wife's been mopping up kid puke for 6 hours. Yes, at that point, you may wonder just how people do it. A few years later, or less, you may find yourself responding to the 'understanding ears' of another.

    Anyway, I've digressed here. Yes, those of you who pointed out that it will be difficult to achieve those levels of stimulation (on every level) are absolutely right. I have no illusions about what lies ahead, but I will be attempting to reacquaint myself with normalcy. Already it feels as though I've taken a sedative.

    Ultimately, he did me a favor, and I'm accepting it all at face value. I don't/won't look back with regrets. How could I? I've been bathed in the glow of the highest form of his 'species', and like any wild, erotic learning adventure, it was a experience. I saw windows into things I didn't know existed, and I'll never regret that. But am I more jaded? Hell - I barely recognize myself...

    When you guys are good, you are really, really good. And if someone like me appreciates the situation and avoids the landmines, it can be a mutually beneficial experience. I'm all for learning in a creative environment...

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  27. And by the way, '2', you nailed it in the first response. He did get past barriers few others on the planet could get by. It was a dual, of sorts, as I'm no push-over. But always it was in good sport. I rose to the challenge as never before, determined to never land at the bottom. Okay, he dropped me in the end, but all given, it was a fair deal. I held my own throughout and I hold my head high, now.

    And yes... I did like the darkness in him. It was brutally refreshing. Sage advice at all times, a realists view of the ways of the world, and a level of proficiency that can only come with lack of conscience. There's a reason we so often like the bad guy in film and literature. We wish we could get away with more and a P who isn't a warlord or serial killer, and is gainfully employed at the highest of levels of society, is often admired. At the end of the day, we all wish we could get away with a little more.

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  28. openminded said, "I know, Jesse, I should be finding all that at home with my husband. If only life were like that. But you'll know one day, when you're with your beloved, coming home after a hard day at work and your wife's been mopping up kid puke for 6 hours. Yes, at that point, you may wonder just how people do it. A few years later, or less, you may find yourself responding to the 'understanding ears' of another."

    This. Real life experience, sans denial, makes all the difference. And I think it's possible to talk about one's moral beliefs without sounding like an overgrown Dudley Do-Right.

    Anyway, nice email, openminded. I usually can't get into sociopath love stories because they almost always involve a heartbroken normal who is full of self pity and confusion or full of self righteous fury. In other words, thanks to their refusal to look in the mirror, they are full of shit. You are one of the exceptions. You own why you were with him and what you wanted out of the relationship. And still want, if you could have it back. You even turned it into an opportunity to grow as a person, to expand your inner horizons. What a breath of fresh air.

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  29. Openminded:

    I'm trying to understand your justifications for the reasons why you went outside of your marriage, but I can't. There is no reasonable excuse to cheating, other than the selfishness and boredom. How is it love when you treat the spouse so horribly? I'm not understanding, and perhaps I never will. I truly don't know the temptations until they approach me, but so far I have had enough self control to resist temptations if they make themselves seen. If it's a temptation that will only create more harm than good in the end, I avoid it. Simple. Why is this so hard for others?

    As for open marriages, or swingers, if that is what both in the marriage agreed on, then no hard feelings. It was something BOTH are aware of, and agreed to.

    Am I the only person that believes in commited, non cheating, marriages?

    Daniel, I'm far from a virgin. I just been through some things that made me more aware of how to treat people. I'm not a manipulative, selfish asshole, but I have done some things that I regret.

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  30. "And by the way, '2', you nailed it in the first response."

    Thank you.

    And yes, DB, I believe Seductee #3,733 is actually unique and exceptional in terms of the seductee role.

    Oh, and I giggled reading PMS giving Ukan word connotation lessons. I think you were either being obviously dense, PMS, or you did not realize that Ukan is being purposefully stubborn.

    Jesse: "Am I the only person that believes in commited, non cheating, marriages?"

    Probably. I would only agree to this concept in terms of, "I believe in committed, non-cheating marriage if it benefits me in some exceptional way."

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  31. Jesse Duplantis:

    So you are entombing yourself within banal middle class values to... what, assuage your guilt perhaps? What did you do in your younger years that you find so objectionable now?

    I bet you think you are "growing up", don't you? ;-)

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  32. I always thought marriage should be something serious, but I never took, well, relationships, that seriously. I went for what I wanted, not realizing I was hurting the person(s) I was with at the time. Because I didn't see the relationship as serious because we weren't married, I was a dog. I lost a really precious woman that I was with for 5 years because of my lies, and...extracurricular activities. I didn't take her seriously because of my literal meaning of relationships versus marriage. This was all a while ago, when I should have been in college, but I was out being lazy, doing drugs,doing what I wanted, the typical hates government so I didn't want to work, or pay taxes (still don't), I guess your cliche bohemian. I got my act together only after losing her. Have yet to be dating again, concentrating on other things.

    Now that you have played Dr. Phil for a moment, I'll await your findings and criticism.

    Yes, that was sarcasm...

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  33. @2: I like to play the dense pedant commentator, at times. A child could see that UKan was less than serious.


    So we finally come to the heart of Jesse's issues. It's cute, really, and fully what I expected. I love those adorable euphemisms, by the way. Your insistence on writing out the prevarication that I'm sure is part of your daily speech is really just the best, though.

    The whole thing slides from self-deprecation to self-loathing and back again so many times that I begin to think you lied when you said you'd never had your heart broken.

    I think to get a really good read on all this I need to try to reconstruct the timeline of your recent life. You're 28 now, and writing your thesis, so you've been in school about 3 or 4 years, probably. Since the relationship of record occurred when you were not in school, we can infer that you were about 24 (give or take) when it all ended. Taking 5 years from there, we arrive at your fairy tale's beginning at the tender age of 19. And, I suppose, the intermediary conclusions that you wasted your "sowing your wild oats" years and that you haven't had a proper date in nearly 4 years.

    Am I close? Or were there filler years, and the beginning is even earlier? Was she your high school sweetheart, Jesse? And is that really all? Really? That's what's made you into this dreadful Ward Cleaver wannabe? You talk like you have this beast inside you, kept at bay by your strength of will, but in the same breath you're this tragic broken soul.

    But it's not all bad. I can appreciate your third grade level, pedantic, reductionist view of the relationship/marriage spectrum. Again, it's cute, really. I just don't know how you make it to 28 and still think that's a revelation. I hope you're unique this way, else I weep for my future. I'll probably just kill myself if I end up such a mincing, boring thing at 28.

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  34. Jesse asked, "Am I the only person that believes in commited, non cheating, marriages?" and Ukan said, "I don't get it. You are in a open marriage, but you are not a swinger? Explain please."

    I "believe in" commited, non-cheating marriages. I'm in one. When my husband and I owned up to the needs we had and looked for an alternative to divorce, that was commitment. When we spent time ironing out the guidelines by which we would practice polyamory, that was commitment. Being honest with yourself and your spouse about who you are and what your needs are, without judgement and all the other emotional drama that can ensue, requires commitment.
    The specifics in describing what I mean by being polyamorous and open marriage vs. sexual swinger are these: My personal taste is not to have multiple sexual partners; however, if I meet someone who I would like to have in my life, on a less casual basis, I am free to pursue that relationship; whereas someone in a monogamous relationship would have to make a decision to walk away from that or cheat on their spouse.

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  35. Thank you, Jesse, for becoming a higher moral citizen after screwing with women's minds and bodies for years. I so appreciate your pious attitude. You well indeed are 'holier than thou'.

    Oh, wait - let's fast-forward to IVillage in four years. 'My husband was so rotten in the past, but when he met me, he was so wowed that he vowed to be forever faithful. He said he could be faithful, even though he'd never done it in his life. Now I find out that Jesse had a string of one-night stands and a long-term lover...'

    Whatever.

    And Daniel, thanks for the compliment. I'll accept it. I was different with him, but I believe I was different than I've ever been with anyone. We all seek to change others. It is interesting to be in something with someone when you know that they cannot ever change, and to accept them exactly as they are. We should all do that more in life. I am glad I had this opportunity, and sure I could have left earlier. I didn't want to. Who walks out of an enticing, thought provoking film before the inevitable tragic ending? Certainly not me. I'd miss the best parts if I did.

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  36. Hmm. You know, ME, I'm not sure I agree with the title: 'Bad Romance'. It wasn't. It ended, I didn't want it to, but it was a good romance. We both got a lot out of it. Life doesn't always turn out the way you want it to, but wallowing in the negative helps no one.

    Best to be an opportunist in this kind of situation. After all, he was.

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  37. Openminded, I agree with you. My relationship with a socio was a "good romance". I have no regrets other than it ending. I knew my socio and what he was about and loved him as he was without ever feeling there was anything about him or the relationship that I'd like to change. It's a shame that his "polyamorous freedom" wasn't true freedom. His was contingent on whether or not his spouse was happy, and if she felt threatened by his feelings for someone else. Not my brand of polyamory or open marriage but those are issues they have decided to live with. I loved him but I wasn't going to be part of their drama.

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  38. I never had a broken heart because I was the cause of it. As for someone breaking my heart, no. Not yet.

    You are right on the age, years situation. It has almost been 4 years. There have been chances to have someone, but I haven't taken that into consideration. Not too interested.

    I wasn't a horrific cheater, but I did stay, a few times, usually under the influence. It was in the beginning, and when I told her years later, she wanted out. If you want to assume this is why I turned out this way, that's fine. I was always a bore, lol, I guess you can say. Nothing outlandish, never have been. That wasn't why I ended up "this" way, as you named it, I am pretty much the same. I just have a clearer, non drugged up mind, and better understanding of relationships, mine anyway.

    It's funny how everyone is all wrapped up in my past drama. Was I coming off as a do-gooder? Why the holier than thou attitudes. I'm stating the obvious, don't cheat if committed. Aerienne, no problems with your sitch, what your doing is completely honest. Openminded, you know what you did was wrong or else you wouldn't be going out of your way to prove to me that it was right. I know it was wrong, we all know it was wrong, you know it was wrong, but I did commend you on getting away. Take THAT as a compliment atleast. I'm not calling you a complete fool.

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  39. "Openminded, you know what you did was wrong or else you wouldn't be going out of your way to prove to me that it was right."

    See, right there Jealous Jesse. I didn't see her trying to prove anything right. You were projecting. You are trying to create meaning where there is none. Not just with your comments to OM, but with your transition from dog to good, grown up guy. Being a good guy is as empty of inherent meaning as being a bed hopping dog. You are not maturing. You are merely moving from delusion to another. Truth is, you got bored with one way of living and decided to try something different. The something different is more socially acceptable, and social acceptance apparently equals maturity to you. It probably always did, which is why you spent years running away from it to begin with.

    Anyway, you are as selfish now as you were when you cheated on your long term squeeze. Only now, your selfishness looks like most everyone else's selfishness, that's all. Your callous judgment of openminded's choices and your dismissal of whatever pain she might have experienced as a result of the relationship she just came out of demonstrates this.

    And deep down, you know all of this.

    I am not suggesting you shouldn't make this change from selfish cheater to selfish conformist, btw. I keep talking to you because it's rare for me to openly examine a normal like this, and get feedback. Of course I examine them all the time, but never in this exact way.

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  40. Oh dear, Jesse - you get me wrong. Have I once said that what I did was right? That it wasn't immoral? Nope. I don't justify my affair.

    None of that means that it wasn't important and meaningful, despite our differences in personality.

    Unlike you, I don't pretend to be anything I'm not.

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  41. You know, Jesse, it's dangerous to judge another. My ex-AP was a better example of what he's capable of than I am. He lacks certain emotions and checks and balances, but he strives to be the best at whatever he does. And he exceeded expectations in his relationship with me. I admire him for that, as I admire anyone who strives to succeed in the best way possible with what they've been given.

    I have the capacity to comprehend the enormity of my actions, but my letter to M.E. wasn't about my own guilt or skewed moral compass. It was a letter that was written before the demise of my relationship as I tried to understand and comprehend what I already knew instinctively: That he is a P, or someone with extremely strong tendencies.

    You have nothing, really, to add to this discussion. You make assumptions where none should be made. And at the end of the day, you make presumptions about your own strength of character. You glibly state that you'll enter into a marriage and be faithful. Well let me tell you something, Jesse, it is a rare person who doesn't wish for that with all their heart when they walk down the aisle. You are childlike in your comprehension of human relationships and emotion. You cannot pronounce on marriage with children until you are in it. And remember - some of the least moral people walk through marriage without straying, and some of the most pious tumble fast, hard and furious.

    I'll withhold further predictions about your own fate.

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  42. And thank you, Daniel. You're someone I'd respect in real life. You are intelligent, pragmatic and open-minded. You have admirable qualities that any empath with half a brain should respect. It's a shame not everybody is driving with a full tank.

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  43. I respect Daniel's comments as well OP. As long as they have nothing to do with me..lol. Just kidding..he has always been honest and has tried to be understanding regardless of how ridiculous he thinks I am. If he were my friend I would value that as well.

    Grace

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  44. Hey, Grace -

    I actually asked Daniel jokingly (in a previous thread) whether he hadn't just dumped an empath. His logic, wit and superior reasoning skills remind me very much of someone I know.

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  45. Isn't that a crazy thought? You never know...

    Daniel...are you under 30? Just courious.

    Grace

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  46. "Birdick's blushing by now, undoubtedly." - or salivating ;)

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  47. He's probably sleeping.

    Going to watch M For Murder(Hitchcock)..after I read about cellular division..bla.

    Grace

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  48. Openminded:

    Sorry for hitting a nerve, yet again. I doubt you read through most of my message, I stated numerous amounts of times that I will never fully understand until I get in that position, you were right on that. Don't forget that what I say is my opinion, much like anyone's comments on here. No need to take them personally. Why are you anyway? I am not pretending to be something I'm not, never thought I was. People change, those who realize there faults anyway.

    Daniel:

    On the contrary, I was not bored with my old life, I was just getting no where fast. I needed to grow up. I needed to respect others and myself. I needed to get a clear head, and do something that mattered. I did that. My "projections" on marriage has never changed. I have always believed in marriage that way. And if I were married and a cheater I would be just as dispicable as those who have done it. I may have been cold, and unwelcoming with her pain, I do apologize for that, but I can't completely sympathize because I don't see any reason to do it. That's all. Condemn me to hell, which I'm sure most of you have,ol, but all this in the end is opinion.

    Hearing from you has made me see things differently. Some thoughts that come to my mind are scary, things I never even imagined myself thinking, thoughts that have never even seemed possible. I don't like that feeling. And it has only happened after speaking to the few that address me here, especially you Daniel, and Postmodern. Is this part of your manipulation game? To get people to question themselves?

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  49. One more thing Openminded, then I'll leave you alone:

    Please don't get into another fascination with another sociopath (Daniel). Although a little more harmless, because it's on the computer, your doing it all over again. I don't understand the magic these eople have over others....

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  50. You're just as fascinated Jesse, you keep responding, and coming back.

    And this magic?, it's called MANIPULATION, you even stated it in your previous comment. Sometimes it feels nice to be owned. Just sayin'...

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  51. Jesse you should have just stayed home. Why hide behind morality now? You make me sick with your self pity. Its stench is too much for me to bare you weak pathetic loser. You sat at home doing drugs and fucking over the only girl that was worthwhile in your life and now you're projecting your guilt and regret on someone else? You're like a catholic priest ; preaching against homosexuals while molesting little boys.
    How hurt you must feel. How many nights have you tossed and turned in your bed thinking of someone else fucking her? Worse you know its your fault. Yours alone. How long have you obsessed on the fact that you will never have someone like her again? Four years? Do you ever wonder if she lies awake at night pillow talking on how much of a dirtbag you are to her new man? She does. Believe me. All five years of your amazing relationship that you had is soiled and rotten in her mind. She's already erased you.
    You should have done a lot of things, but instead you ran out there trying to be a revolutionary. All you ended up being was a chauvanist pig drug addict loser like your dillusional friends. Your problem is you have never made a positive impact, and you don't really want to. You just want to pretend like you do.
    Don't think that everyone lives life like you do. We don't all look back at our lives and feel regret.

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  52. UKan for president. M'hm.

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  53. President? That guy (or girl) is a idiot. Jesse just feels bad for what he did and you guys are just beating up on him. This site is just a forum for sick people like UKan and Daniel to mess with people. You may all not believe in God, and think you will not be judged, but judged you will be.

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  54. Clearly, God is quite unnecessary if judgment is what you are hoping for.

    Look around.

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  55. Even if you disagree with Jesse what UKan is saying is low and unfair. Even you would have to agree with that. You people are a den of vipers. I went back and read the rest of the comments on here and its just filth. This proves exactly what I thought: You do evil on purpose.

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  56. Define evil, please. I may indeed do evil on purpose, depending on your definition.

    Also, your metaphor deserves some reanalysis. Vipers are incapable of abstract thought, so really a den of vipers is about as evil as a pencil case.

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  57. To expand on that, they're simply predators. Is a predator evil for following its nature? If not, I am no more evil than the next predator.

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  58. jeez UK. If my ex ever contacts me, I doubt that but if he did, I may ask you to prepare something for me to say to him without just saying f--k off..I would need something effective! You could be my secret weapon.

    Grace

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  59. Evil is pretty much a relative term. For instance, I think Little Debbie Snack Cakes are pure evil.

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  60. I love those cakes..but I dare not eat them:)

    Grace

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  61. I was thinking about Openminded's relationship and parts of her story kind of reminded me of the movie Indecent Proposal.

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  62. Of course you don't know the definition of evil. If you did you wouldn't be practicing it everyday. You people think you're in control, but satan is the one controlling your lives. Jesse don't let these people bring you down. There's always forgiveness for your sins.

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  63. UKan Dowat JesusdoesSeptember 19, 2010 at 10:40 PM

    This ones a total muppet.

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  64. Sins, and vipers, and satan, oh my!!!

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  65. God help me... How did this turn into a fire and brimstone discussion.

    First up, I'm an atheist. Yup. Here we go...

    Jesse - I'm sorry this has turned into a hatefest. I haven't read your other posts before now, and I'm not sure what your views are. I only know what I see here, so I'll only comment on that. IMO, you came in here judging me, and that's fine. I don't mind - that is your right. But you also derailed things by moralizing about things that are largely unrelated to my story.

    In short, I wrote M.E. many months ago, while trying to figure out just who and what I'm involved with. I get it. I understand. I also understood when I found this site, but I needed to accept it, and accept it I did. But knowledge didn't change my views of him. Labels are simply labels.

    I had a powerful connection with him, although obviously things were unbalanced. He felt for me in the best ways that someone like him can feel. Who am I to judge? How do we ever know what another feels? Look at the range of emotions in empaths. None of us are perfect.

    It's admirable that you want to be a better person, Jesse, but projecting your values onto others when you can't comprehend the situation won't win you allies. That said, I'm sorry it got so nasty here.

    My actions were immoral, but my letter to M.E. wasn't asking for moral judgment. I wrote to him because I thought he could help me to understand the person I was involved with. He asked me then if he could publish my letter, but I wasn't comfortable with it. He may not feel compassion as you and I do, but he respected me and he respected my limits. Antisocials actually do that - respect the limits of another, provided they feel a level of care for that person.

    I wrote back to M.E. not so long ago, finally at peace with my situation and asked if he still wanted to publish it. And here we all are, duking it out in a public forum.

    Finally, I loathe religious terms, but I'll simply say this: Don't demonize another because they wear a particular label: Psychopath. Sociopath. Adulterer. And please don't feel sorry for me because I was in the clutches of an antisocial. I am an adult. I made my choices.

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  66. And please somebody tell me how the hell we get the religious crap out of this thread. Christ all mighty...

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  67. Why explain yourself openminded. Surely he taught you that much.
    Jesse sets himself up to be beaten up on. Don't worry he prefers it. It's his way of punishing himself for his past. He's gone from the adulterer to the saint on a soapbox. He's like Christine O'Donnell.
    This is coming from someone who doesn't cheat on his girlfriend Jesse. Your judgemental attitude only shows your weakness. You tell on yourself just like every other tart that comes on this site with their broken hearts and sob stories. It always ends up the same. You were a dumb knob and now you are paying the price.
    Openminded's story is about someone who doesn't bear a grudge for once. She actually understood the man, and even adopted some of his ways of looking at the world. Her ability to mirror in general kept her strong enough to be with him. The fact that she was that strong and she understood him made him value her. However, in the end he had to sacrafice that for something he decided he valued more. For him it became a logical decision, so he easily distanced himself emotionally from it easier than she could. He made her in his image and still it sticks to her. Haunting her still.
    That's what you should have understood Jesse, but your too stupid to. That's why your alone.

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  68. Wow, Ukan - You nailed it. Insightful and thoughtful. I'm speechless.

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  69. Ukan: "She actually understood the man, and even adopted some of his ways of looking at the world. Her ability to mirror in general kept her strong enough to be with him. The fact that she was that strong and she understood him made him value her. For him it became a logical decision, so he easily distanced himself emotionally from it easier than she could."

    There it is. Thank you for that. Again, something I understood, but you put it so succinctly and clearly. You just summed it all up for me.

    Hmm. Strangely, I've never felt so 'okay' about an ending. It felt like death for a while, but it's all okay, and likely for the best.

    This forum has been hugely beneficial, including the comments today. I'd cruised in and left, then popped back in when this story was published. Nice closure for me.

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  70. Lol, wow, so much love!

    I'm far from stupid UKan, just not at your level, but far from stupid. My being alone is my choice, it has nothing to do with how I view the world, or how dumb you may think I am, or any of the many nasty things that were said. I am not literally asking for this treatment, but I can see how I am. I am speaking to a groups of "self-aware sociopaths and friends" so I was quite aware that it
    could get nasty here. It has. Doesn't change much of anything on my end though. Does, however, give me a sundry of perspectives to give my opinion on, and different ways of thinking. I may not be liked, but no one is meant to be admired by the whole world. Everyone with a conscience feels horrible for the past things they did, and they either regret for years, and never move on, or they learn from it, and become better. Nothing's wrong with admitting a fault. And if others don't like what you did, especially posting it on a blog where other's opinions are allowed, you are bound to get love or hate. That comes with the territory.

    I really must come off as Dudley Do'Right.

    Your not hated, never were Openminded. I now understand your viewpoint. The story was more for the understanding of the messed up person, not the extra-marital affair. Took a while to get to this realization, lol, but I now get it.

    I don't get the whole religious thing. I get you were standing up for me Anonymous, but the religious undertones to this topic even to me is uncalled for. Thanks, but no. I can handle this beating.

    In all Openminded, glad you got closure. Thanks for appreciating my change, never meant to come off so completely condescending. As I stated before, I take marriage personally. Putting the marriage issue aside, I understand your point to your story. I hope things are getting better in your marriage so you don't have to venture elsewhere again.

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  71. Probably, the religion came into play because lots of religious people don't know how to debate things they don't fully grasp without just throwing dogma at it.

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  72. Aerianne, it's like throwing poo at... well, poo.

    Thanks for that extra lovin' Openminded and Princess Grace! I didn't blush, but I did salivate and jizz my pants. About 80% of the time, I attempt to be polite when I comment here. Politeness is what I do. I find it classy and intelligent. For the most part. Until I talk to the unquestioning minds that show up here. Then my comments turn less polite… Speaking of,

    @Jesse-Jesse-Bo-Bessy-Banana Nana-Fo-Fessy-Mee-My-Mo-Messy-Jesse... You got a lot of luvin too, I see.

    Many of the normals that have posted here in the past are usually profoundly ignorant. I’d say you fit that description, only your ignorance is of yourself. You lack inner clarity. Of course, you’re not very different from most other people in that regard. You haven’t questioned anything deeply. You have just reeled from one kind of ignorance to the other. You thought your anti-authoritarian stance from long ago was you being smarter than the average bear, no doubt, but it wasn’t. Naturally you think this "growing up" thing you’re doing now is wiser, but as I said before, it’s just another kind of ignorance.

    And in the end, you, like most everyone else, will not question. I mean, really question, the dogma that defines your life. Will you Jesse? So trite, so commonplace.

    You are boring me now.

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  73. I love how you guys come on here and pretend to be sociopaths...it's friggin hilarious - I love it!!! I like to imagine what you all actually look like..
    When I think of UKan, I imagine this fat guy with longish scraggly brown hair except he is relatively bald on top. He has the beer goggle type glasses and for some reason is wearing a dirty brown tracksuit. All while stuffing cheezles in his face thinking about how he can't wait to touch a girls jugs for the first time.
    Thanks for providing me with regular entertainment - it's great keep it up. Now...have at me - I need a good laugh!! Can't wait.

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  74. Interesting, Anonymous, that you who continue to read and comment simply don't get it. Look down your street (doesn't matter what neighborhood you're in). Your boogie-man resides in one of those houses. He teaches your kids, takes your blood pressure, balances your books or sleeps with your daughter. Hmm. Or maybe your wife, and fact of the matter is, she gets off on him because he's far more articulate and worldly than you, and he's one hell of a hot lover, and it didn't take much to seduce her away from you.

    'But wait', you say - the boogie man doesn't live on my street. No, but that well heeled charismatic neighbor who is in rapt conversation with your wife (or sleeping with me) seems pretty entertaining. We should have him in for dinner.

    Oh, hell, what a waste of time. Enjoy your safe little world where the boogieman identifies himself.

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  75. Anon said, "Now...have at me-". That just sounds like it could be a thinly veiled plea from a narcissistic masochist.

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  76. I don't eat cheezles. I eat frito honey twists. I can't grow my hair long, though I tried as a teenager. I'm engaged, so I desire no other womans jugs, and never claimed to have a mental disorder. There's some insight for you anon try working something off that, instead of shooting in the dark.
    You want me to have at you? Why should I when you are kneeling at my feet. Need you hide your original handle? Have I disgraced you that much? Can you not take the abuse? How long did it take you to pick up your dignity and drag your pathetic words back onto this blog. Go back to where I left you, or entertain us. Stop wasting our time.

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  77. Daniel - You just jizzed your pants? Tell you what - I'll go back to being the good little empath, addressing your complex needs while reaping my own benefits from the wild banter and mind-blowing sex. You in?

    Oh, wrong time zone. But I'd swear... swear it's you... maybe you moved LOL.

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  78. Bible thumpers, ha. Because shoving your frivolous religion in everyone's face is going to somehow make it all better; shine the light on our 'evil deeds' and completely change our perspective. I don't particularly care to argue religion with you because not only is pretty obvious it'd go absolutely no where, but I half way expect a bible across my forehead somewhere in the middle of it all. Instead, you can follow Regan's example and go fuck yourself with a crucifix.

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  79. Openminded:

    I am in. You.

    :-)

    Great minds think alike, and all that jazz. That's why I sound like your ex.

    Ukan said, "Go back to where I left you, or entertain us. Stop wasting our time."

    To quote that great sage and eminent junkie Kurt Cobain, 'Here we are now! Entertain us!' Seriously Anonopuss, be a dear and give us something novel and interesting instead of the usual drivel.

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  80. Instead, you can follow Regan's example and go fuck yourself with a crucifix.

    But it's alread up Anonoxtian's ass, right where his mom left it.

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  81. This is all just too funny. I'm gonna go cannibalize a virgin (or whatever it is we do) while I wait for the next foaming Jesusfreak. I think if we play it right and the readership is varied enough, we could get denouncements from all the Big 3 within 24 hours. What an honor! And think of the publicity.

    Also, Honey Twists are awesome.

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  82. I'm going to go and blabber all this through a confessional window to a priest who has an alter-boy stuffed under his desk and finally I'll be healed!!!

    God will save me, because my issues are far more important than all those starving kids in Africa and the muslim children being bombed by the Christians! If only I'd prayed! If only we all pray! The wars will end! The cheating will stop! The psychopaths will develop empathy!

    It's a win-win!!!!!

    Daniel, I'll meet you in a dark corner behind the crucafix!

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  83. "I'm gonna go cannibalize a virgin (or whatever it is we do) while I wait for the next foaming Jesusfreak." Save me a leg or two. I'll get the flour ready.

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  84. I knew that Ukan didn't have long, stringy hair. He hates goths and emos.

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  85. Good satire Openminded.

    I favor those big fat pretzels that come in a box at the cvs.

    Grace.

    ps...the time on here is pacific time..didn't realize that. I'm from the east coast.

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  86. I totally picture Ukan with long greasy hair, and probably a chin-dip goatee, sitting in the basement playing WoW until 4 am., surrounded by Nietzsche and Crowley books with unbroken spines.

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  87. Not me. I picture Ukan as kind of lean and wirey, shorer hair, clean shaven, with a lot of uptight energy.

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  88. Am I male? Did I just come across this site? Or maybe I have interacted with all of you before in different guises. It's amazing how on some occasions you pat me on the back while on others you do exactly as I tell you and "have at me". You know for a bunch of sociopaths/empaths (or whatever else you think you are) you are oh so eager to explain yourselves to me, sooooo easy to manipulate. UKan, I'm sorry dear I should tell you that you have never wronged me - but thank you for making sure that I knew you were not some fat virgin who likes fondling Honey Twists more than his "fiancee".
    Thank you again for having entertained me. I'm so glad you were not entertained by me.

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  89. This site is great, I'm so glad I found it. Thanks.

    I find this womans story a " Good Romance". I myself being a borderline sociopath think that an affair with one can give life a much needed shot in the arm. Married or not, its not about hurting anyone, and if you're happy that's all that matters. There is more to the affair than just amazing sex, at least for me, there is the pursuit, the excitement, and...well.. You guys all know this already.

    This is my first time here and its nice to read some similar mind sets, thanks guys!

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  90. Anonymous @ 7:01, yet another moron playing clever. Yawn.

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  91. Bahaha...I will destroy you because I am a "sociopath"...No no it is I who will destroy you because in fact I am the sociopath. To prove it I will use psychiatric terminology that I googled and think I understand the meaning of.

    Wait here is an anonymous moron that dares to question our "sociopathic tendencies" which we demonstrate regularly by "taking out the trash" and "demolishing" people who contribute to the site when they disagree with us or HEAVEN FORBID poke fun at us. Darn it you KNOW how that makes us sociopaths cry and rock in the corner!!!

    Hilarious. You lot are just so gosh darn golden - your parents must be so proud.Keep up the great work!

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  92. Bahaha...I will destroy you because I am a "sociopath"...No no it is I who will destroy you because in fact I am the sociopath.

    Hah. I do see this happening around here.

    What I find even funnier, though, is that the socios are all like "good girl" when someone comes along that can "take it", go with the sociopathic flow, be their "mirror", see them as a god, or whatnot.

    Fuck if I want to be anyone's mirror.

    Mirror MY ass, fuckers

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  93. That's funny Medusa!

    What I notice too is that you/me could go with flow today and by tomorrow, for no reason, we are nothing again. I can't trust them. It's hard to keep a connection with them. That's something I experienced with my ex.

    If I go along with what any of them are saying here, it's because they may be referring to a universal truth. There are somethings they say that are true for all of us. Someone was talking about manipulation the other day..I relate to that. That's the kind of stuff I'm interested in..for now anyway.

    Grace

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  94. You are a attention whore trying to act clever, but you have nothing to go on.
    Are you a male? Are you a female? Are you a tart? Are you a lovefrauder? Are you someone who got no attention, so you are trying a different tact? Who cares. You're nothing new. I gave you something to create with, but still you can't grasp anything but straw. You wanted to come onto this site and take your first shot at the king, but all you can do is throw stones at the walls. I want you to make me shake and cry in the corner. So I will give you more about my life to use:
    I don't eat frito honey twists, and I have no fiance. I'm married and I like hawaiin bbq chips. Now again I ask you to entertain us, or we will stop giving you attention.

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  95. Ukan, your control issues--were they present during childhood, as well? I imagine they're very deep-seated. They come off as rather malignant and ridiculous to me, because it just seems ironic for someone to deal with pathology by using more pathology.

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  96. I'm married to a normal man, but have affairs with socio men. Is this common? I feel like as a woman the men I have affairs with are trying to over power me and win a contest but I use the affair as entertainment. Watching them struggle with the fact that I could care less and them wanting me to care more. I know they do, cause I provoke feelings from people just like do. The sex is amazing and the conversations we have are profound. I just wonder if I'm doing myself a disservice by getting into an affair with a male version of myself.

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  97. UKan I don't even know who you are talking to anymore (yourself?).

    It's like you're 1/2 actually pretty smart but also 3/4 moron, or act like it.

    King? Really? Who? And of what? King of this blog? Interesting choice of delusion.

    It'll be okay, love.

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  98. Medusa, maybe Ukan meant he was the "Cut-down King".

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  99. Aerianne wins again.
    King of this blog? Please, I have greater delusions to chase. Its hard to speak to people who can't follow a conversation as infantile as this, especially when their spectating as usual (2 and medusa).
    My control has no issues. I stay in control and we have no issues. Is that fair enough for you?

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  100. How did it digress to here? Oh yeah - The Christian crap got heaved in, Jesse left and now it's the typical. Down to the petty scrapping. Yawn.

    But hey - Shannon - nice to see you here. Thanks for your comments.

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  101. I am not here to entertain or please.

    Which was basically my point.

    Heh, Aerianne gets the "good girl" award from you. Is that supposed to make me feel bad? She "wins" what? Are we picking teams? I wasn't aware that this blog was a reality show.

    Yes, you do clearly have control issues, and sizable insecurities.

    I doubt you live up to your own expectations and diatribes, which is why you get so wound up and defensive, and your attempts to hide this under a guise of "control" and righteousness betrays you.

    Have fun with your inevitable Last Word (control). And if you have no Last Word, I will just assume that you know I am right.

    Either way, you lose.

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  102. Hahaha..I think I made ickle UKan angwy. Awwwww poooooor baby. Does he want his binky?

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  103. Hey Openminded. Does it get like this all the time here? Lol :)

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  104. No, shannon, it gets worse.
    Don't get mad at Aerianne just because she can see the obvious. Get mad at yourself because your so insecure that you take everything I say out of context. The entertainment is anons job, as obviously you have always bored me. I skip most of your comments, but I see you read all of mine. I will make a better effort next time.
    Poor medusa. You didn't get your good girl award. If you stayed a good girl you would keep it. You are always running off with the first riff raff commenter you see, and you're terrible at reading between the lines. Is it that you, 2, and anonymous (which is also one of you) feel so left out that you want my acceptance? I accept you. Now let's stop being silly.

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  105. On topic:
    Shannon what's your husband like? Why do you describe your men on the side (we will call it 'team') as sociopathic? Why would it be a disservice, when you have cited nothing negative?

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  106. Well, it could certainly be a disservice to her husband if he is unaware of these affairs and if she doesn't want him to find out and run. Hence a disservice to herself.

    Why are you married, Shannon? Love? Stability? Convenience? Love seems unlikely....

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  107. Aerianne read the obvious Medusa, something you can't seem to accomplish. The difference between Aerianne, Open Minded, and say people like you (medusa) and Grace is that you don't understand. You take everything we say to heart, and keep your constant vigil against any type of control or criticism coming from people like myself. It's unnecessary. Maybe that's why their relationships lasted longer. They were not a nag.
    It is you with insecurity, Medusa, when it comes to power. One off handed comment when it comes to authority, not even directed at you I might point out, and you are all over it. What sensitive nerve did that hit? It must be really sensitive considering you had to jump out in the defense of anon, who is a run of the mill upstart. How many Anon's do we get a year?
    2, you buried your head in the sand for quite sometime after that last incident. Have you suddenly found some other spectators to critique with? You were always a coward, as you like to run with the pack. Your way of getting attention is trite. You sit on the sidelines heckling people and have nothing to add. You have so much promise if you would just apply yourself. Till then you will always be number 2.
    Anon you are getting desperate now. Go back into the void of love frauders, born again christians, grieved wives and husbands, and gothic people from where you came.

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  108. Yawn.

    I wasn't aware that I was defending anybody.

    It's not your criticism or your ideas that I have a problem with, at all. It's your lack of finesse and poor writing skills. It makes it hard to take you seriously. And clearly, you also take my comments way too much "to heart", which you accuse me of doing. Why is that?

    Others here, who can be just as vitrolic as you, can at least write well and get their point out clearly without having to resort to using others to back you up (in your mind), and can at least pretend not to have such an "I'm right all the time and everyone who agrees with me is on my team" attitude.

    And you always include "straw man" insults that have nothing to do with anything, which you complain about when others do it.

    I'm done here, this is getting boring.

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  109. Except one last thing...

    I think you are just feeling emasculated because your attempt to follow me to another site to try and fuck with me a make me paranoid was pathetic and a miserable failure.

    Though I see you are still trying.

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  110. You two are just the ~cutest~! Do I hear wedding bells?

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  111. You are so predictable Medusa. Now you are correcting my grammar? How would I know what other site you were on? You are like a champagne glass to me. Always empty of course.

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  112. Champagne glass indeed. Always empty because you love the taste of what is inside me. And now you are drunk.

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  113. Projecting again are you? How ironic your name is medusa, for it is the mirror that keeps you in existence.

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  114. I drink all I see. Drunk? I think not. I'm not even buzzed.

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  115. Not sure how projection fits into my last post.

    It's like you pick something random out of your ComeBack fanny pack, no matter if it's relevant or not. And then you reuse them over an over.

    Nothing ironic about my name, Alanis. I also suggest that you brush up on your mythology. It's the mirror that kept Perseus in existence, not Medusa.

    But regardless, I'm the first to admit (and have several times) that a good part of my make-up is of mirrors. Same can be said of sociopaths, by definition really.

    So what's your point?

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  116. You missed the word irony I see. The mirror ceased medusa's existance. I found it ironic that it defines yours.
    The sociopath doesn't mirror personas, as some believe. They find your emotional needs and placate them. There is a difference. You mirror people to hide how you feel. It can be mistaken as sociopathic, but it is the opposite. It can be a strength or weakness depending on your awareness of it.

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  117. Hmm. Exactly whose persona have I stolen/mirrored and where do you get this from? I am truly interested. And how does this define my existence? Exactly how do I mirror people to hide how I feel? And please tell me, how do I really feel, since you are apparently omniscient?

    Didn't you say further up on this thread that you prefer such "mirrors", and they are the good girls in your eyes, the one's who "get it" and go with the flow?

    FYI, The mirror didn't cease Medusa's existence, Perseus did. Yet even after her beheading, Medusa's power did not die. Ask Athena.

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  118. UKan be wrong. UK, please tell me, when have I ever been a nag here? I rarely try to convince anyone of my position. So please don't bring me into comments that don't describe me accurately. You know I'm not a nag. Maybe you just don't know what to call me so now I'm a nag because I will not completely accept your position and yet I don't hold a vigil.

    My realationship with me ex was brief because of my lack of experience period. If it's my fault than fine..I can take it. But a nag..no. If I tell you I have no angry feelings towards him and now you, that would be lie. I don't need to lie, I just accept it the best way I know how and remind myself that this isn't that important.

    I do understand..more than you believe.

    Grace

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  119. Grace, I think he just meant to call me out as a nag, and not you.

    But, sigh. A woman who doesn't bury her needs like a good girl would is a "nag". I'm speaking generally here, not about myself. Sure there are lots of truly naggy women out there, that are all "me me me me do this do that". This is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about basic stuff. That's the thing that gets to me lately, though; the empaths that are accepted by many socio-types here are the ones that can "take it", as if that is what makes someone a worthy lover, or just worthy of a sociopath's presence, or even worthy of being alive. Being submissive, basically. Ukan takes issue with the fact that I am rebelling against this. It is to be expected.

    I'm loathe to think in terms of gender, as I myself barely have one, but the more I hang around here and other similar sites, the more I see that gender is really very very relevant.

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  120. Ha ha ha. Now I'm a sexist? This is getting richer. I'm sure nobody has been spared, reguardless of gender.
    I get it. You see this entire thing as a gender issue. This is why you are on this good girl page. You see these woman who are in love with these sociopaths as victims of their dominance. Brainwashed if you would. I disagree. I'm finally happy to see people happy to have had a relationship with such people, and glad they ended on good notes.
    Medusa was used as a tool after she was slain. That's no irony. Its actually fitting.
    Grace you weren't on the nag tip. You lacked understanding. Now your gaining it is what I was saying.

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  121. Yeah I don't like that word nag. I don't like any words used to label women like that...nag or the c word. Someone called me the c word when I was a teenager...and why because I asked him not to lean on my car. Put it to you this way...he apologized.

    Do you think you will ever get your point across to them? I guess there are moments of clarity for them but not many. I do believe that some of the points they make are valid...very valid. But not ALL of them!! If I did then I would be submissive too. I’m just open to other people’s perception and ideas…I don’t always trust my own and if I can make use of their input/feedback than I say I’m more intelligent than they are. God help me for even saying that. That’s how people get smart with other people. They sit back, watch and listen, if I say something it's just something simple and not very interesting but that's how I work. I should have done the same with the ex. Blinded by that silly thing called love.

    Grace

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  122. Thank you UK. I am getting it.

    Grace

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  123. No, I'm not calling you out specifically as sexist. As stated, I was speaking generally. And no, the entire thing is not a gender issue. It plays a big part which goes largely unacknowledged, but it's only part.

    I'm finally happy to see people happy to have had a relationship with such people, and glad they ended on good notes.

    Really? These people seem happy to you? Ended on a good note, really? I don't think so. Happy maybe to have realized something about themselves, or maybe pretending to be happy after the fact for self-preservation's/pride's/ appearance's sake, or maybe the happiness you see is just a quasi-worship borne out of a sense of powerlessness and poor self worth ("he won so he must be more powerful and I should look up to him and realize I'm the one that has something to learn"), but I hardly think the relationships themselves were happy ones. Some people hide it well, but they are here because of a deep unhappiness.

    Ukan, I do understand it all, quite well. But that doesn't mean that I cease questioning.

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  124. I think today there are more nagging men than wives.

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  125. I’m just open to other people’s perception and ideas…I don’t always trust my own and if I can make use of their input/feedback than I say I’m more intelligent than they are.

    I agree, it certainly does show intelligence to be openminded and such... I've certainly learned a shitload.

    But see that's the thing: in the end, if you can't trust your own judgment you are severely limited and not really in control.

    That’s how people get smart with other people. They sit back, watch and listen, if I say something it's just something simple and not very interesting but that's how I work. I should have done the same with the ex. Blinded by that silly thing called love.

    But if you just sat back all the time, watched and listened, where exactly are you in the relationship? You play the role of a sounding board. Or a scientist. Or a lamp. Not an actually fully formed person. Sure it's still a relationship, but it doesn't have anything to do with love.

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  126. You don't understand. They don't regret their relationships, in fact they only regeret it did not continue. The mirror I spoke of concerning openminded had to do with mirroring his view of the world/people. To her it made a lot more sense. The gifts he gave her are with her forever even though he had to leave. She doesn't resent the outcome because she understands how he reached the conclusion he did. That doesn't mean she likes the conclusion, it just means she understands it.

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  127. It's also the way people communicate with each other too. The words we choose are important. I used to think my ex husband (yes there's an ex husband) needed to nag(lol)me a little. He flat lined when it came to his feelings and needs. Too me that’s boring…it’s ok to say..hey baby you need to do some sit ups. Nothing wrong with that.

    Grace

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  128. Again stop projecting medusa. Not everyone wants to be in control in relationships. There is usually one who leads, and its not gender specific. I think its important to establish that or the one who wishes to be lead will seek someone who can do that task. Graces grievance wasn't control, it was that he stopped leading and left his army to wither.

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  129. Ukan, you have a talent for skewing things for your own ends and pulling words out of thin air. I said nothing about regret. We were talking about happiness, which is obviously something else.

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  130. Not everyone wants to be in control in relationships.

    Sigh. Again, skewing things. I didn't say "control in relationships". I was talking about control of oneself and one's choices.

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  131. Hey UKan, when I say a disservice I mean that I would be setting myself up for failure (which is like kryptonite to any self respecting socio). Failure in my marriage possibly but mainly the "what if" between me and my socio contemporary. My husband is an understanding, patient, physically strong man who is quite sensitive. Very emotional. I got married at the age of 21, I'm 31 now and I did so because at the time it was right for me. I had done what wasn't done by the people around me,house, husband, career and was very proud of my accomplishments. I love him the way I know how, and as long as he doesn't get in the way of who I am I will continue to do so. That being said, he doesnt know I cheat, and never will. Which brings me to what Medusa asked. Stability? I really never gave that a thought. But it seems to fit. I am fond of the foreseeable, its very important for me to have a straight plan. The affair with the man I'm sleeping with now is insane! He craves control the same way I do and I will submit only for the sheer feeling of knowing it is for my equal. And I see his submission as well, calling, checking in, wanting time he knows I can't give him. And won't give him. I never give up, just change my course, so with this affair I just may do so. Maybe deal with someone who is "easier"....but what's the fun in that?

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  132. Besides, I think this all is a misuse of the word control.

    Take a BDSM relationship, for instance. You, Ukan, probably think it's the Dom who's in control, but ask anyone in the scene and they will tell you that it's the Sub that has the real control.

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  133. He craves control the same way I do and I will submit only for the sheer feeling of knowing it is for my equal. And I see his submission as well, calling, checking in, wanting time he knows I can't give him. And won't give him. I never give up, just change my course, so with this affair I just may do so. Maybe deal with someone who is "easier"....but what's the fun in that?

    This the the basic conundrum and foundation of all intimate relationships. The subtle dance and balance of control, dominance and submission. If it's not balanced just right per the people involved, someone ends up very unhappy. Or addicted.

    Too much control = boredom.
    Not enough = disappearance of the self.

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  134. I don't always trust myself Medusa. I mean I've put myself in some funky situations due to my will and my certainty that I was right. The other problem is that I didn't trust anyone else to guide me either..can win that way. I'm older than most of you peeps so believe me I trying to change before I die!!

    I am a scientist Medusa..lol..not a very good one though..not yet:) I will be honest and say I'm not a fully formed woman but things will get better for sure.

    Grace

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  135. I have always said there's no such thing as too much power, but you in my situation you could be right. Lol

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  136. I'm the same in many ways Grace, which is why I am questioning this stuff and getting all arg about it.

    My father called my mother a "nag" almost every single day growing up, whenever she spoke out about something having to do with her needs or him being a dismissive ass. And as I love him to death, I grew up trying my darndest not to be a "nag".

    Problem is, I equated needs with nagging. As many men do, especially of his generation.

    This, of course, caused problems later on, where my need to exist and my need to not "nag" were at odds with one another, and eventually culminated in a bout of personal insanity that I've been dealing with this year and on this site.

    So Ukan, perhaps you can see now what nerve has been hit.

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  137. I wouldn't contemplate "what if" if I were you. Your marriage is also at risk of failure. Not because of your affair, but the fact that you are contemplating "what if". If you are getting so caught up in your affair that you are contemplating a relationship to replace your current one, then one of them must end.
    You can't battle for control in a relationship, because someone will win. The person who loses won't give a victory prize either, just resentment. This is the fate of the affair you have chosen.
    Your husband is sensitive which is what you need. You require control so its right he submits to you. Since that is a primary need, you require it. A relationship that meets that need will last longer.
    You will lose a lot and gain nothing from your affair. Your relationship, if its with a sociopath, is temporary, and one of you will end it soon after you break from your husband. Its inevitable that one of you will be consumed and the other will be bored.

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  138. Ukan, Have you ever had an affair, or relationship with your equal? Or what could clinically be called so. ?

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  139. I cheated on a girl with someone of similiar nature, however I never had feelings for her or got caught up. I saw her for a year. After a month I told her I had a girlfriend. To my surprise she told me she had a girlfriend as well. After a few months she told me that her real name was something else. A few months later it was different again. A few months later it changed again. She faded out eventually. No breakup or anything we just stopped at some point that I can't remember. We saw each other once a month, and we just didn't one month and continued. I think we both got bored at the same time.

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  140. Ukan: "My control has no issues. I stay in control and we have no issues. Is that fair enough for you?"

    I asked a specific question. The question was if your control issues have been around during childhood. You did not answer this, but instead you responded defensively out of some delusion that I was questioning your "power" and "control". Now, answer my lovely question, would ya? Thanks.

    Ukan: "2, you buried your head in the sand for quite sometime after that last incident. Have you suddenly found some other spectators to critique with? You were always a coward, as you like to run with the pack. Your way of getting attention is trite. You sit on the sidelines heckling people and have nothing to add. You have so much promise if you would just apply yourself. Till then you will always be number 2."

    This part right here is just pathetic. You decide to make a tangent about me, even when I haven't even had the chance to respond to the first? You silly goose, why the offensive nature?

    As for why I haven't been here, it's called "life". You see, I often get busy with "life". I even said a few weeks back that when I had seldomly came around here, I often left the comment boards with very much boredom of the redundancy. Now, Ukan, why is it that you have been here all this time? Should that not be questioned, as well? (Are you seeing the immaturity in your highschool-esqe comments/questions?)

    Oh, and dear Ukan... I contribute when the subject interests me. Have you not caught onto this?

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  141. No. It hasn't occured to me because its not evident.
    I didn't respond to anything you said because it was baseless and therefore irrelevant, much like most of what you say on here.
    My control comment is sarcastic. I wish it wasn't, because your response was entertaining. It would have been more so if I knew I solicited it from you.

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  142. I'm not even sure how to respond to this comment, Ukan.

    It's just.. extremely dry and uninteresting. You should at least TRY to be entertaining and interesting. You were much more entertaining last time we chatted.

    In others words... Son, I am disappoint.

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  143. As usual you cast your ballot instead of running for office 2. When you stop being a voter come chat with me as a equal. Otherwise cast your ballot and stay with the masses complaining at the local pub about the specifics of the debates you see.

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  144. Ukan, you crack me up! You take all this so seriously. Ukan for President of a Blog! Nuts.

    It's just the internet, dude. Some people have other things to do and other places where they can hone their skills and whatnot. Not everyone uses this site for the same purposes as you.

    I gotta hand it to you though, that while most of us just throw ideas and theories around here, you actually try to apply them here. To comical results, yes.

    I'd think that real-life situations would be more interesting to you though.

    Are you feeling trapped in your relationship or something?

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  145. Medusa

    If my father ever called my mother a nag, he would have been six feet under...that's the kind of mother I had. I guess I picked up some of those sensitivities from her. She's wicked!!

    Grace

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  146. Medusa you never appreciate the art of conversation. My comment means he just expresses critiques on other peoples ideas, instead of going out on a limb with his own opinion. You and 2 take everything literally.
    I'm posting from my phone most of the time and currently I'm at my girlfriends grandmas house. What better to do but sharpen my sword?

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  147. I do indeed appreciate the art of conversation, just not with you. As your "art" lacks finesse, as I have said.

    You talk in terms of being King or running for blog office and whatnot, using pretty dramatic terms, and then you try to call us out for taking things too seriously and literally.

    And why does 2 have to offer up an opinion all the time? We have enough here already to go around. Sounds to me more like you are projecting, Mr. Everyone Else Is Always Projecting. I'm guessing at one point you were (and maybe still are) a meek person and you hate yourself a little bit for it. Because clearly you don't say this stuff to actually help anyone.

    And you post plenty of useless inane crap yourself. And it's all fine. Who cares?

    And quit sorting people into groups. It doesn't do anyone any good, and it just comes off as a sad attempt to build a human pyramid upon which you can pretend to be King of the Shit Mountain.

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  148. What? You said you were married...you said this after you said you lied about being engaged. now you're at grandmas..wtf..lol

    Grace

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  149. I think the married bit was just him making some kind of joke.

    All I know for sure is that he plays a lot of video games.

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  150. Ha ha grace. I can't believe medusa and 2 didn't see that. How blind you two are. I lied twice in a row completely obvious, and you can't even see that. How dumb you are. Now you want to give me your insight on how I am? Shots in the dark.
    Meek. I love that. Everything is opposite of what it seems. How trite.
    What other guesses do you have? I put things under your nose all the time to see if you will smell it, but you can't even get a whiff.
    The only inane talk I participate in on this site is complete fools like yourself who decide to engage me in such banter. Even then at least I make it entertaining, instead of this psuedo-intellectual garbage you like to spout. What is evil? What is good? What is gravity? It sounds like my three year old child.

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  151. You are just in your own little world aren't you?

    The things you "put under my nose" are either irrelevant, or stink like rancid bullshit. Was I supposed to have responded to your married/grandma/fritos crap? Was I supposed to care? Was it relevant? Does it matter if they were lies or not?

    No.

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  152. And now I'm supposed to call out your lie that you have a child!!!!

    Right?

    But why should I care? You think you are pulling some kind of wool over my eyes? Really? Good Christ you are entertaining.

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  153. Man! What a complete loser. There is absolutely zero point in getting more complex than that with you cos' gosh darn it - you really are that simple.

    Generating 152 comments was fun - I've had such a laugh. Maybe no one wants to smell the things you put under their noses cos' it all smells like friggin honey twists and virginity. There is one thing I will agree to though - you are the King...the King of whiffing your mother's crotch. Crotch whiffing and creating badly worded "sociopathic" diatribe on the net - now that takes skill. Please let me know when you add spelling to your skill set. Ah you've brightened my day. Thanks a bunch hun. I think I'm done with you now. :) xo

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  154. Ha ha! That is something you can't deny.

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  155. I was talking to YOU idiot! Wow! Lame. I had the tiniest amount of something for you before you added that UKan. Oh Wow!! Now I am finished.

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  156. I'm assuming his post was probably a response to my last post due to some kind of lag, but no matter, the timing is awesome.

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  157. I want to set the record straight since there may have been some questions about why I'm here.

    In no particular order:

    I am brown-noser here, or in real life.

    I am not a submissive personality.

    My relationship was an
    exceedingly happy one.

    I ended the relationship because I decided it was time to end it.

    We had a 3 1/2 year relationship, plus we have remained close friends for a year beyond that.

    I regret that the relationship could not have continued as it was.

    I'm not hiding anything.

    I'm not deluded about anything.

    My self-esteem is good.

    I'm here because it has helped me understand this man as well as other sociopaths who are in my life.

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  158. Hey Aerianne, I didn't mean to single you out. I did use you to single Ukan out, who was trying to use you towards his own ends. Sorry if it looked like I was lumping you in some category.

    I don't know enough about you to make any kind of judgment, and nothing you have said displays a gross lack of self-esteem or some kind of sociopath worship complex.

    I was speaking generally.

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  159. Let me correct that typo, lol (cat screaming to be brushed while I'm typing).

    Should have read: "I am not a brown-noser."

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  160. Well, Medusa, just in case any of it, posted by anyone, implicated anything other than what I've just stated, I wanted to be clear.

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  161. When will you listen, medusa.

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  162. UK and Medusa...I wasn't recapping UK's relationship status I just thought it was funny. I think he started it with one of the Anons here or Jesse. I just happen to catch on to that. I don't look to catch anyone in lies..it doesn't matter to me.

    Grace

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  163. It was my private joke, but since you made it public we shall laugh together

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  164. A joke? And here I thought you were saying you were a Swinger, Ukan.

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  165. A girlffriend, a fiance, and a wife? That's some swinger. Scissors, paper, rock.
    Nay, I'm no swinger. I Have tried it though, with someone who was nothing. At this point in my life things must be solid. Outside influences and distractions are dangerous.

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  166. Mixed in amongst all the back and forth scrapping (which I had to skim through), more highly intuitive words were written by UKan:

    "UKannopy said...
    You don't understand. They don't regret their relationships, in fact they only regeret it did not continue. The mirror I spoke of concerning openminded had to do with mirroring his view of the world/people. To her it made a lot more sense. The gifts he gave her are with her forever even though he had to leave. She doesn't resent the outcome because she understands how he reached the conclusion he did. That doesn't mean she likes the conclusion, it just means she understands it.
    September 22, 2010 4:03 PM"

    You absolutely nailed it, UKan. I'll well admit I'm sick of the back and forth you three have entered into, but when I found this paragraph, i was stunned. You are absolutely right.

    Also, one of you touched on issues of control. I have never put myself in a position where I was the one who had less control, but this time I did, and for good reason. There were things to be learned. The situation was valuable to me, on so many levels (and no, never monetarily). I knew that I was entering into something that would expand my own mind and horizons - and the bonus was that it was the most highly erotic relationship imaginable. My own parameters had to shift, in order to accommodate, and yes, my only regret is that it ended.

    Truer words were never spoken.

    And Shannon - in response to your question 'is it always like this'. I'm not sure. I haven't spent a lot of time here. I hope not, though. I'm enjoying this forum.

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  167. Hey, '2' welcome back.

    I'm still trying to get through all the comments I've missed this week. I wanted to add that while my P was ultimately the one who held the power in the relationship, I also carried a fair amount of my own. I suspect that's what made it so hot. I knew precisely how to handle him, and the ending was unfortunate.

    Shannon - make no presumptions. You can get caught. He did, and hence our current situation. It didn't evaporate because of boredom. It was still very much on fire. Too 'on fire', if that's possible. And as we all know, when you play with fire you get burned. He got burned. I got burned. And so it goes: The abrupt 'The End'.

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  168. Is this the room for an argument?

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  169. It appears so. Welcome, Emmanuel.

    I guess everybody argued because my story is unique: I don't feel fire and venom for my P ex-bf. I actually got something positive out of the experience. Somehow the 'Bad Romance' (really a good romance) thread became a place to brawl.

    Good fun, but a lot of reading!

    What's your gripe, Emmaunuel? We've got the religious crap out of the way, so best leave that alone.

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  170. scientific-rationalSociopathSeptember 25, 2010 at 2:19 PM

    I find it amusing that you consider your story "unique" maybe you have chosen to redefine the word. Whilst your story bores me as I have been there done everything, it is nevertheless quite droll to listen to your relentless conviction that anyone is interested in your words beyond the obvious desire to hear my opinions. I tire, I must go now....

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  171. Openminded said,
    "I guess everybody argued because my story is unique."

    Yep; unique, just like mine ;)

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  172. Mine was not unique. It was pathetically predictable. I feel more unique now though..lol. I guess.

    Grace

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  173. Aerianne -

    I was being sarcastic in my comment above. Honestly, I don't get all the back and forth crap that goes on on this board.

    I commented that my story is unique because it all seemed to go so smoothly. I'm gathering from what I've read, that most relationships with sociopaths are stormy, at best. I dodged the landmines and it ended well.

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  174. And happy to bore you, Scientific. I'd rather bore you than come on here with some horror story. Works best for me.

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  175. So you do get the back and forth things then openminded.

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  176. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  177. Of course I get it. But it became dull and uninteresting to anyone except the engaged parties. I yawned, skimmed and said 'whatever'. I'm sure there are some interesting points sprinkled in there, but nobody but one of the three parties in the back and forth would care. But hey - you guys carry on. ;)

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  178. I hope I didn't offend you Openminded. I was just saying how naive I was about things. I wish my story ended like yours!!

    Grace.

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  179. Grace -

    The only reason mine went well and ended well is because my radar was up from the beginning. I sensed what I was dealing with the first time I crawled into his bed. Actually - there was no crawling LOL. He seemed to be well in charge, and his confidence was so confusing (and compelling) that I sensed immediately that he was no normal cat.

    Anyway, I had an inkling from the get-go, and tap-danced around the typical landmines because I also sensed that we could have a compelling relationship - IF I managed myself and ultimately him, in the right way.

    Don't beat yourself up, Grace. Your situation, sadly, is the typical story. M.E. published my story because he felt that I well described a high functioning P in that capacity, and for peculiar reasons, I was still holding my own. But as we all know.... the ending was typical. Cut. Hand-wash. Gone. I never existed.

    Also, my comments about the back and forth were certainly directed at UKan as well. He loves to stir it up, slinging stuff everywhere. But he sure nailed me. I was shocked! He forced the final realities on me, and in a nice way. I really appreciated his comments.

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  180. Also, Grace, I was fortunate that he has enough to occupy his mind and 18-20 hours of his days to not have needed to make me a project. Without his status, position and I.Q., I'd have been another typical story. I'm well aware that I got lucky. It also made it hard to walk away, and from the get-go, I knew I should. There is rarely a happy-ever-after. But as I always say, take the good and don't wallow in the rest.

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  181. Openminded, did you say that the relationship broke up because he was caught in the affair?

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  182. Not a severe definitive bust, but enough suspicion was cast his way. He had a choice to make, and for him, it was the right one - not that he couldn't have continued to cover his tracks.

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  183. Yeah, I get you. Was that what the argument was about (the one you mentioned in August)? I know you were wondering if he'd answer your emails and you said he did after the 3 week silence.

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  184. Replies
    1. Bump.

      I am 'Openminded', but I think my account is long gone.

      I started this thread several years ago, and came back to see what the 'yesterday me' looks like through today's eyes. Oddly, not much different.

      We got back together, and just ended after another three year run. It was exactly the same - a wild, intense, erotic ride. He's single now, as his wife left him, during our break-up in 2010, which was prompted by her discovery of me.

      I knew what I was getting into for round two, and recently I intentionally pushed some buttons with excessive use of the 'L' word. I knew that might spell the end, but the void I was feeling eventually became too much to handle.

      Everything comes at a price. Two remarkably different people can only play the game so long. He was happy at it, as I was undemanding, highly sexual, catered to his every whim (and enjoyed it), but deep inside me, I was missing something. I pushed the envelope I knew would spell 'the end'.

      I'm rather devastated, but fortunately I've never been a depressive sort, and life -- well, life goes on.

      I'm going to miss the bastard, and I'm pretty sure he'll miss me. I've also got some repair work to do, because the cut wasn't clean. I am suspecting that like in the past, he'll be back. This won't be best for me, and I need to build the walls.

      I've done some tough self-examination, been through dark hours of grief, and acknowledged that it was easier to stay than go. The tough work begins now: I've altered my own personality in ways I could never have fathomed, and sometimes it's easier to carry on in a certain manner and not look in the mirror.

      My day of reckoning has come, but I still maintain... no regrets. At least not yet. No doubt they'll come in a tsunami.

      Delete

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