Friday, August 6, 2010

Sherlock Holmes: high-functioning sociopath?

I've been meaning to watch the first episode of the new Sherlock Holmes television show in which he outs himself as... you know what:
"I'm not a psychopath, I'm a high-functioning sociopath; do your research."
Equally as entertaining, though, is following the blogosphere's reaction to arguably the biggest sociopathic outting of our time. Like many who refuse to believe (Claymates, anyone?) there are some skeptics, or at least some who are worried that the show glorifies sociopaths:

Sociopaths, even high functioning ones, present themselves as something they're not - and this is a primary characteristic as well. They mimic feeling and empathy to lure their prey and it rings hollow. Sherlock does not try to mimic, he observes. Obsessive-compulsive, and hyper-intellectual but not a sociopath. Sociopathy is not the new cool, and sociopaths are very destructive, whatever level they function on.
Sociopaths aren't the new cool? I couldn't tell whether that was a normative or positive statement, so I did a quick search and turned up this question on answers.com.
I have noticed that the media kind of glorifies sociopaths, and people think they are cool. Why do people think sociopaths are cool but other antisocial diseases, like aspergers, are uncool? They both make people act differently... And if someone can explain the difference I would be grateful
Eat your small black hearts out, aspies.

158 comments:

  1. The guy who wrote this postAugust 6, 2010 at 8:18 AM

    Oh, me, I got it. It's the Path that makes it a state instead of a syndrome. And the fact that it doesn't have a bad connotation or pronountiation(?). So the people think it's actually awesome. And it looks like what House got

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  2. The guy who wrote this postAugust 6, 2010 at 10:40 AM

    Hey also another idea!!! You could write a book about are you a sociopath and talk sociopathy the PcLR the aspies the other syndromes close to sociopathy Random quotes that aren't takn from a conversation with yourself The discovery of sociopathy and whatever other stuff and then you post it here and I take the profit because you were to slow to publish it with copyrights :D

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  3. And with just two comments an above average post was ruined
    Is Tinkerbelle back or something? I was just getting comfortable to the lack of mental retardation here. By the way "The guy who wrote this post", pills don't work, bridges do, get out.

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  4. Still the guy who wrote those comments you hateAugust 6, 2010 at 2:28 PM

    Never took pillz so (Perfect moment to say Pillz Here!) and bridges do work, except when they crumble, then, they cannot perform the of crossing one side of a pit to another. IDK who the fuck is Tinkerbelle. I almost beated my record, shouldaved posted the second one alone. I can't get out the door is jammed and a dangerous killer is coming towards me. Oh wait, it's my genetically modified cat. I love when he does paws on me. Except when he detracts his buzzsaws. And I'll retard this because I DON.T LIKE DEPRESSIVE AND MEANINGFUL STUFF. I like trains. And if it can help you, I baked you a pie. What flavour, may you ask. PIE-FLAVORED!!!

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  5. OMG. Where do you random people come from? Seriously, freakin weirdos.

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  6. Of course Sociopathy is the new cool--sociopaths are not constrained by inbuilt social mores. "Sociopath" is just the newest word for "antihero". Yojimbo, Dirty Harry, A Fistful of
    Taxi Driver--these are men who hold to no code but their own.

    Antibubba

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    1. You are the epitome of ignorance. Sociopathy has NOTHING to do with an Anti-Hero in any way shape or form, on any level. It's a psychological disorder under antisocial behavior. How & why you put those two together may be indicative of a very different, more severe kind of disorder all on its own.

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    2. Except, this person said sociopath was the new word for antihero, he didn't equate them. He probably meany the that in the media and ever-changing popular norm, the general populace has come to understand sociopath as a character trope. In common media, the sociopath (self proclaimed or otherwise) plays the antihero trope to a tee. One can hardly be blamed when the two are portrayed as synonyms. Don't take things so literally, especially on the internet; it shows your intelligence (or lack there of).

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    3. well of course sociopathy is considered cool in the age when going against the mainstream is the most intense form of proclaiming individualism and the freedom from negative emotions is a wonderful idea, whether or not people truly experience it. Sociopathy seems like a release from social pressure and a way to be truly free from both a degrading self and social view.

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  7. Sociopaths aren't "antiheroes", antiheroes typically have some form of ethics or morality, sociopaths don't have that.

    There are no sociopaths like Dexter in the TV series. That is just for TV. In reality somebody normal could be trained to be like Dexter, the military or special forces can train a person to be like that and they don't have to be sociopaths at all, considering Dexter is killing serial killers and not killing women and children for example.

    Sociopaths are more like the Joker.

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    1. SPOILERS
      Dexter wanted to kill a kid in the first season but decided against it because the teen killed another kid for raping him. Then the teen kills again and gets caught by Doakes before he can act on it. Then he coaches the kid in jail, but the kid ends up taking his life.

      Dexter kills plenty of women. His first victim was a serial killer nurse, murdering patients via overdose. Another one was a wife and her husband. Both were coyotes killing Cubans who couldn't pay up. Another example, Zoe Kruger, a cop who murdered her family to escape the stranglehold they had on her.

      He feels remorse only when he's violated his own code, not because he's killed someone innocent. He killed two innocent men from what I remember, and felt remorse only for about a second. Normal people are haunted if they take another life, PTSD, etc. Soldiers and cops experience this if they have a conscience.

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    2. I agree with House. Not all sociopaths are psychopaths. The difference is control.

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    3. Control is the only thing we have but truthfully the differences between the two are like those of dogs and wolves.

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    4. House M.D. makes no point. Dexter may have killed women or may have considered killing children, but those were morally led decisions since those people weren't more or less innocent individuals. Regardless of who or what, Dexter kills for morally fueled reasons. Sociopaths hold no morals, nor do they hold remorse. If Dexter killed for the sake of satiating a curiosity, a personal interest or simply because he felt like it, he'd be more likely to be sociopathic, but the fact that he kills for purpose rather than lives without one is the difference between sociopathy and anti-heroism.

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  8. The guy that wrote the first postAugust 7, 2010 at 11:55 AM

    I never watched Dexter :(

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    1. It's not too late. It can still be found on Netflix. It's worth watching.

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  9. I have a somewhat random and bizarre question. Have any of you watched That 70's show? Is Steven Hyde a sociopath too?

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  10. The guy that answers intellignetly for the first timeAugust 8, 2010 at 1:23 AM

    No, it isn't a highly developped show, they only stick to the basical stuff

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    1. First of all, you spelled 'intelligent' wrong. "Basical"? That's not even a word.

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    2. He also spelled "developed" wrong..

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  11. Who cares. Shoot it.

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  12. it might be a baby sociopath

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  13. Shoot it anyways.

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  14. If I was your mother, I'd be a womanAugust 8, 2010 at 1:12 PM

    Nope, just fell asleep

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  15. If I was your mother, I'd be a womanAugust 8, 2010 at 1:12 PM

    Nope, just fell asleep

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  16. what the hell?!

    Soiciopaths aren't the new cool. They are just people who wouldn't conform to what socioty says is normal. Sherlock does not glorifing soicopath he was just making a bloody point. And House isn't a Soicopath but he's meant to be like holmes.

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  17. That's what I meant

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  18. sociopaths seem to think that they are god. There are many more people out there who know what they are and do not glorify them, but instead, are sickened by them, pity them and especially only have apathy towards them. These people that I am referring to know the truth. The sociopath doesn't believe there are any people out there who know that they will never be capeable of wisdom, let alone intelligence. The sociopath, therefore knows very little. They are a pure example of 'nothingness', or a 'black hole'.

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    1. MR, 17 yr old socio
      Sweetie, when you comment by 'anonymous' it means you're an average thinking human; it doesn't make me any less human than you, but a bit more observant. A sociopath is nothing more than a skillful brain than recognizes his rational abilities and compares it to others' thinking process. That's what your statement 'seem to think they are god' means, they don't 'think' so, they know. NOT that they're god, but that they're smarter. Whomever is sickened by them is an evolutionary failure, for our brains were given to us to be USED: analyzing, thinking, planning, socializing, foreseeing, decoding... things the sociopath knows how to do. & Those who 'pity' and 'only have apathy' towards ♥socios♥ is because they haven't taken the time to fully understand their workings, because they are not one of them to do so. If you were a sociopath or a psycho even, you would know what the word SOCIOPATH means, a synonym of evolution. I'm afraid to tell you that you suffer from a biased opinion, a failing analytical ability, a questionable reasoning, a superficial opinion, a gullible mind and an intolerant temper. I don't mean to be mean. If you take it as an offense it proves you're unable to detach yourself from the digested information that you believe gives you a genuine verifiable perspective. If you don't, then welcome to the club.
      I hope you join us ♥

      Anyway, identifying oneself as one and seeming threatened by such a comment would only prove me to be below my own standards to try to explain our workings. Well, their workings...? hahah, that's what the immoral side of our mind means, the 'flaw' you find in us: adaptability, independence, complete detachment if it's what's convenient. So, this blog is an achievement, a success, since it brings such minds together, like a Society of Altruistic Machiavellians (contradictory but possible). You should be proud of your species, because here is where the idealism of a functional society lives along with reason and science. The greatest idealists have been socios, where would such complex ideas have come from? Rousseau, Gandhi, Jesus Christ, Kant, Marx; in the end they all wanted peace, and they acted upon it no matter what. Do not think socios are evil, they're as benevolent or evil as they are smart enough to decide which is better. Socio's are rebels with a cause, it just so happens that actually the formation of most of these minds has been in chaotic environments which is why most turn 'evil', therefore are stereotyped as such. I am not one of them, i apologize for my rude manner and hope you, or anybody for that matter reads this, and explains if i am to be mistaken.

      If someone believes i am, please express yourself scientifically & methodically (for there is nothing more tiresome for a socio than an undeveloped opinion) Not with facts, studies or charts, since i doubt everything, but pure reason and logic. I'd like to meet your thought process and if it proves to be valid i'll accept my mistake & thank you.

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    2. Gandhi? Please, wake up.
      You, human? Lol

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    3. MR 17soontobe18 yr old socio
      want a DNA sample?

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    4. Our lack of empathy is probably part of what makes us smarter than other people. To call us unintelligent because we lack empathy only serves to prove us right in the knowledge of our own intellectual superiority.

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  19. The original Sherlock Holmes has a very clear morale code and is extremely hard on himself when he let's people down. He is very respectful of people in general and his condescension is accidental. He seems to generally be surprised when people don't understand the things that he does.

    The idea of the obsessive compulsive is more like that.

    However, this modern Sherlock Holmes does fit the symptoms attributed to a sociopath. Including an apparent lack of guilt and emotion.

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    1. Not a doctor, but from what I read in the internet I would agree that BBC Sherlock at least partially falls under the definition of a sociopath.

      However, I think that Asperger's is more likely. He would seem to fit the symptoms completely.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

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    2. not true, he does show guilt - of sorts - when he hurts john's feelings in hound of baskerville, and is protective of others(mrs hudson), even at the expense of his own life- as in the reichenbach fall. if u actually look up the characteristics of sociopaths, they include being charming-which holmes doesn't even attempt, manipulative, sexually deviant-which is hillarious since he's practically asexual,paranoid,compulsive liars and cruel to animals. i fail to find any of those traits even in the modern sherlock holmes, little less in the original one. actually, a bit dissapointed that there is so little belief in actual genius, mental-illness-free, eccentric as they may be.

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    3. Also, in "The Great Game" in series one, he does mimic pain and pretends to cry at the so-called death of a man he doesn't know to get information. He quickly brushes it off and has no remorse for upsetting the "dead" man's wife.

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    4. @ AnonymousJuly 23, 2012 at 6:58 PM

      I actually prefer animals over humans. I'm also pretty sure your information comes from research on unsuccesful psycho/sociopaths.

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    5. He could easily fall under the heading of "disempathetic sociopath" because he's able to form a small number of emotional connections. Asbergers is unlikely because his social interactions don't fit the definition all the way around.

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  20. I think people need to actually talk to sociopaths before forming opinions. Otherwise its just blind predjudice. Speaking as a sociopath i may not be bound by your idiotic moral codes but that doesn't mean i'm about to become a serial killer. I set my own rules and they are damn good ones. We are more than just "black holes" or "destructive beings". I really annoys me that people demonise sociopaths for having a different form of intelligence. I see most of my sociopathy as simple curiousity. Don't do that. Why? There really is no answer. Just a "becaquse thats the way it is". I don't obey rules without a reason. I have determined that i shouldn't kill because i would be arrested and alienate my friends. Thats a tangible reason not to kill. Same for stealing and so on. Sociopaths aren't the monster you think we are. We may be different but violent sociopaths make up a very small percentage. The rest of us like me, live normal lives. We are simply better at asking questions.

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    1. ... And suddenly I find myself described (in part) by Anonymous' debate on Reasons to Obey the Law. I wish I had your contact information, I'd love to compare your reasons with my own.

      Sad that you would alienate your friends with lawbreaking. My friend would give me an alibi, assuming he wasn't an accomplice, as long as I could provide my logic behind it.

      By the way... to those comparing it to something nifty to emulate. Sociopath is not the new goth. There is more to being a sociopath, and requirements for diagnosis. Do your research. *wink*

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    2. So, if you could take something without repercussions but it would harm someone else you would do it though. If you didn't need something but perhaps wanted it. Or say there was someone who you were hanging out around and there seemed like a good way to get money out of them while promising a future return. You would have no problem stringing them along with no intention of a pay back.

      You say without a stupid moral code. That moral code is what ensures that people like you have the reason not to kill... because you'd get fucked by people like us. I understand you'll just fight back but who gives a shit. You don't have a unique moral code where you just question things and push the limits. You take what you can and wish you could have more.

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    3. You actually think we care enough about you people to cheat you? That's arrogance on your part. Why would a sociopath string someone along for money, when it's far more entertaining to see their reactions to being strung along.

      Pfft. You judge and demonise what you cannot understand, because your mind is just too small.

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    4. Empathy just seems to make it more difficult to get anything done. I'm thankful I don't have to deal with that. I'm not a criminal, and the generalization is not just ignorant, it is idiotic. Why is it that people with empathy feel the need to denegrate those of us who are perfectly functional just because we are sociopathic? We may not care what you think of us, but it doesn't mean we can't recognize the irony in the situation: you despise us because you dislike our callousness and lack of feeling - and yet, what are you doing?. I thought you were supposed to be morally superior in that respect? Most of us aren't criminals - messing with people may be the sport, but I see no reason to get myself arrested because of it. Jail would be a serious hindrance to living my life and continuing the chess game.

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  21. to anonymous sociopath, i'm suddenly struck by the desire to write a short story about you.

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  22. @thrythlind:

    clearly, you've seen too many mid-century film adaptations and never read any of doyle's holmes stories. holmes's morality was selective at best, and the only people for whom he expressed any respect were those characters (moriarty, adler, etc.) that bested him intellectually. he constantly jabbed watson for being intellectually inferior, as well as those characters (lestrade, hudson, etc.) that presented little practical use for him. he's not surprised that people can't comprehend his methodology; he's shocked when anyone actually can.

    in fact, holmes was a brawler. he poisoned his dog regularly to test theories with no cares if it died. he only invited watson on adventures when he needed his brute strength in case he couldn't take down a villain alone, and otherwise generally ignored his existence. he absolutely loathed the few instances in which another person made an observation that he believed only he was intelligent enough to discern. he was arrogant, had a huge god complex, exhibited self-destructive tendencies ranging from drug/tobacco addiction to abusively using the few characters (watson, mycroft, etc.) that gave a damn about him, and he had zero compunction about using anyone he considered expendable. he charged exorbitant consulting fees for his private cases, yet never claimed open recognition of his accomplishments because he refused to socially integrate himself into a world that he didn't believe existed but for his own enjoyment. some might call him an asshole, but most psychologists would call him a sociopath.

    he was such a fascinating character specifically because he had the intellectual restraint necessary to recognize that his life would be more comfortably spent if he behaved in accordance with legal strictures (for the most part). holmes was the nightmare that is so frequently immortalized in hollywood thrillers: the barely-contained law-abiding sociopath next door that could snap at any moment.

    this modern adaptation of holmes is the most true-to-life cinematic account of his nature thus far.

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    1. let's agree to disagree.although he acknowledges a certain equality of intellect with moriarty and in a fashion is charmed by irene adler- who by the way in the original is not such a villain,more of a resourceful woman- holmes the original is morally superior - in a conscious way- to the villains he pursues, and disdains the dregs of society they represent. that is why he considers even the loss of his life a small price to stop moriarty. it seems you take your original holmes from the guy ritchie movie, which is NOT the original holmes.
      he cares about the wellfare of his clients, particularly the women whom he believes should be protected, accepts high fees when dealing with morally ambiguous clients but sometimes no fee at all if the client cannot afford it, but is in dire need, and the only times he allows criminals to get away is when they commited the crime against a villain-abuser or murderer-with somewhat justified reasons, and even then reluctantly.
      he constantly seeks the company and help of watson, and although he does not understand how and why other people are not capable of making resonig chains and deductions as he does, he does recognise individual value. in the books he is several times appalled at the fact that he almost gets watson killed, and is reluctant to forgive himself when that happends.
      there are several cases where he deals with intelligent officers of the law or fellow detectives and is pleased to see them able to think on their feet and make coherent judgements. there is actually one case he has, where he works in parallel with a constable and reach the same conclusion and final action.
      he enjoyed showing off, being dramatic and secretive, but that is the extent of the fun he had at the expense of those less intellectually endowed than him. the only destructive behavior he demonstrated was directed at himself and even that he ceased at the requests of watson.
      please do not mistake the original holmes books with some movie or series adaptation and on top of that proclaim your opinion regarding this to everyone else. i have no pb with any kind of resourcefull adaptation and i've enjoyed both sherlock the latest movies and the bbc series, but they are not the a.c doyle books

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    2. MR 17 yr old socio
      there seems to be no problem, both are true, facts and rationalization of his acting :) you two should've written the article. He's the Altruist (sort of idealistic) Sociopath kind, still a sociopath like @thrythlind states, still altruistic like the replying anon suggests.

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  23. *VERY SMALL SPOILER ALERT*

    Well that’s interesting above Anon. It’s a nice review. I’ll have to take your word for it since I’ve never read any of the original Doyle novels. I just got through watching the series featured in this M.E.’s post via PBS and I must say I love this version of Holmes. The latest episode, The Great Game is especially pertinent. In it he outright says that he never gives a damn about the victims. It’s all about the game for him. It just so happens that he’s taken the law abiding side of the game rather than the law breaking side, as embodied by the world’s foremost ‘consultant criminal’, Moriarty. You even see Holmes’ implied respect for Moriarty when he shoots Moriarty a brief smile of admiration at the start of the big reveal. Cumberbatch is doing a stellar job in this series.

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  24. @Anon Holmes Review

    Doyle's Holmes was quite inconsistent as a character, actually. At times he was polite, ridiculously charming and witty; other times he was boorish, condescending and guiltless. Despite being overall, quite cold, he had a human side in the story and a very very strong ethics code against criminals.

    I actually think you've been watching too many mid-century adaptations because if you've actually read all of Doyle's stories, you'd know that holmes really isn't the sociopath that newer adaptations make him out to be.

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  25. IDK if writers "glorify" sociopaths - I think they're intrigued by how easily they can build up drama between a sociopath and a non-sociopath. I guess it's similar to the humorous interactions between aspies and non-aspies.

    I think the new show, Sherlock, tries too hard. Dexter tries very hard too, but seems to be more balanced and planned, but I suppose it's easier when the character isn't based on such a popular icon as Holmes.

    If you're intrigued by shows with sociopaths, try UK's Luther from last year.

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  26. "I have noticed that the media kind of glorifies sociopaths, and people think they are cool. Why do people think sociopaths are cool but other antisocial diseases, like aspergers, are uncool? They both make people act differently... And if someone can explain the difference I would be grateful"

    a) sociopaths get pussy
    b) aspies tuck their shirts into their waistbands, the trousers to which they belong always being too short for their wearer's gangly long legs
    Simples.

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  27. Oh good. I was wondering when this sight was going to catch this TV show.

    Sherlock is definitely a sociopath.

    I began reading the books when I was younger and Holmes became my hero because we had so much in common. How he was smarter and more observant than the average person. How he always needed work to keep him busy. His ability for mental detachment. His need for no friends except the one, dear, close friend (Watson).
    There were other things too in his behavior and personality.
    Years later I began to suspect that I was autistic, and then I thought I could be a psychopath. Finally I looked up some stuff and discovered I was a sociopath. The things that made me a sociopath were also true my Sherlock Holmes and I then diagnosed him also as a sociopath.
    I'm glad to see that the BBC has actually outed him now. It's brilliant.
    Then there was that bit shortly after saying he was a sociopath...that part where Watson was talking about the lady's dead baby and Sherlock said "That was ages ago, why would she still be upset?"
    My friend next to me at the time said "Ouch man, that's cruel." And of course everyone on the TV paused like Sherlock had said something bad.
    It took me a minute to understand that what he said wasn't appropriate. Apparently people 'are' still upset when they lose a baby 12 years ago.
    That little bit there confirmed for me that both Sherlock and I were sociopaths.

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    1. I've had similar moments when watching the show. My sister is constantly appalled by his comments, whereas I am not. It amazes me that she still expects that I'm going to have a problem with what he says - most of the time, I'm thinking what he's thinking.

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  28. Comment part 1:

    Sherlock's sociopathic behaviour is shown by many things.

    Sociopaths aren't entirely without feelings, emotions or empathy (that's something closer to psychopaths). Sociopaths do have feelings and emotions, they just keep them hidden and don't like to display them or talk about them.
    Sociopaths tend to show their emotions a little more openly to those that are very close to them: family, friends, lovers. With these people they can feel empathy.
    With strangers, or people they met one-time, people they don't really know, people they don't really like or aren't interested in...with these people they can only really feel simpathy.
    However, there are certain things for which they feel more strongly. Bad things happening to little babies, or kittens, or pretty young girls.
    {Holmes is never too upset when horrid things happen to his clients. Certain things upset him more though, like when a child or a young lady is in danger. He also has the ability to mentally detach himself from the problem when he can do no more but wait. Rather then worrying for three hours he goes off to play violin, not a care in the world. He does, however, feel close to Watson. In one book someone took a shot at Watson and Holmes showed genuine concern and emotion.}

    Sometimes they are unable to understand why people are upset about something.
    {Sherlock in the BBC series showed this when he asked (about the lady's dead baby "That was ages ago, why would she still be upset?"}

    Sociopaths can be very charming, particularly if they try to be charming. They have a very flexible sense of self. They mimic 'human behaviour' like empathy. They can pretend to be someone else with much difficulty or even the feeling that they're 'acting' or 'pretending'.
    {Holmes displays this by disguising himself when he needs to gather information or go undercover or for whatever reason.}

    Sociopaths also lie alot. Not bad, stupid, lies to your face, kinda lies. It's more pathological lying. They have no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
    {Holmes does this too. Again, with his disguising himself and going under cover as another person. But just whenever it suits him. He'll lie to a random stranger to get information out of them. He'll lie to his criminals and clients alike. He lies to Watson when it suits him. Deceives them all when he like. Like how he sent Watson to investigate that 'Hound of the Baskervilles' thing and said he wasn't going to come, and then secretly tagging along anyway. Or pretending he was dying so that Watson wouldn't give away that he was pretending. Lots of stuff. He does it coolly and without remorse because as far as he knows there's nothing wrong with it.}

    Sociopaths often give in to 'The end justifies the means' but not always.

    [See part 2 bellow]

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  29. Part 2: Shut the hell up, you're an idiot.

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  30. Comment part 2:

    Sociopaths often think the world of themselves. They KNOW they that aren't the greatest person in the world but they still FEEL it. Thinking themselves to be the smartest, cleverest, coolest, awesomest person they know. But they don't show this outwardly. They always think they're right. There will be exceptions for them.
    {Holmes knows he's smart. He knows he's clever. He often thinks that everyone around his is dull and average and possibly a little bit stupid. He thinks he's right all the time unless something pops up to prove he's not right, but unless it's conclusive he still has the feeling that he's right.}

    There is a diminished sense of remorse, shame, guilt, etc. Again, it's like empathy. Say they saw someone cross the road and then get hit by a car. The normal person probably feels [oh, I should have seen the car coming and called out to that person. Oh, I could have saved them, I'm sure.] Sociopaths don't have that kind of illogical guilt. There was nothing they could do. They didn't see it coming. They didn't know the person. It has nothing to do with them. Why should they be guilty? And they aren't. However, if they were directly responsible for the horrible death of a dear friend THEN they would feel guilty, but it probably wouldn't linger for the rest of their lives.
    {Displayed in the way Holmes deceives people, or disguises himself, or even when one of his clients dies or something and he gets over it very quickly indeed.}

    Sociopaths have a need for stimulation, be that mental puzzles or physical activity.
    {Holmes is always like this. He says so himself.}

    Sociopaths are also manipulative in subtle ways, and sometimes even quite open ways. For example, say you saw your roommate pull up in the driveway come back from shopping. You know they'll have groceries and want you to help bring them in. Maybe you don't want to help so you chose that moment to be taking a shower so you are unable to help. From the roommates point of view, it isn't your fault, you were in the shower at the time and couldn't help. They can't blame you.
    {Holmes is manipulative is this subtle way too. Not necessarily for lazy, mean reasons like above, but all sorts of way and reasons anyway.}

    These are all qualities of a sociopath.

    The other qualities are:
    -Poor Behavioural Controls/Impulsive Nature
    -Early Behaviour Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
    -Irresponsibility/Unreliability
    -Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle

    However, with proper upbringing these are easily prevented from manifesting. So it is with Sherlock Holmes and myself (though I am a little impulsive at time and used to be quite irresponsible and have only recently begun setting out a realistic life plan).

    Sherlock is a sociopath.

    [sorry about the two parter but it was complaining about the character count]

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  31. Part 2:

    Sociopaths often think the world of themselves. They KNOW they that aren't the greatest person in the world but they still FEEL it. Thinking themselves to be the smartest, cleverest, coolest, awesomest person they know. But they don't show this outwardly. They always think they're right. There will be exceptions for them.
    {Holmes knows he's smart. He knows he's clever. He often thinks that everyone around his is dull and average and possibly a little bit stupid. He thinks he's right all the time unless something pops up to prove he's not right, but unless it's conclusive he still has the feeling that he's right.}

    There is a diminished sense of remorse, shame, guilt, etc. Again, it's like empathy. Say they saw someone cross the road and then get hit by a car. The normal person probably feels [oh, I should have seen the car coming and called out to that person. Oh, I could have saved them, I'm sure.] Sociopaths don't have that kind of illogical guilt. There was nothing they could do. They didn't see it coming. They didn't know the person. It has nothing to do with them. Why should they be guilty? And they aren't. However, if they were directly responsible for the horrible death of a dear friend THEN they would feel guilty, but it probably wouldn't linger for the rest of their lives.
    {Displayed in the way Holmes deceives people, or disguises himself, or even when one of his clients dies or something and he gets over it very quickly indeed.}

    Sociopaths have a need for stimulation, be that mental puzzles or physical activity.
    {Holmes is always like this. He says so himself.}

    Sociopaths are also manipulative in subtle ways, and sometimes even quite open ways. For example, say you saw your roommate pull up in the driveway come back from shopping. You know they'll have groceries and want you to help bring them in. Maybe you don't want to help so you chose that moment to be taking a shower so you are unable to help. From the roommates point of view, it isn't your fault, you were in the shower at the time and couldn't help. They can't blame you.
    {Holmes is manipulative is this subtle way too. Not necessarily for lazy, mean reasons like above, but all sorts of way and reasons anyway.}

    These are all qualities of a sociopath.

    The other qualities are:
    -Poor Behavioural Controls/Impulsive Nature
    -Early Behaviour Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
    -Irresponsibility/Unreliability
    -Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle

    However, with proper upbringing these are easily prevented from manifesting. So it is with Sherlock Holmes and myself (though I am a little impulsive at time and used to be quite irresponsible and have only recently begun setting out a realistic life plan).

    Sherlock is a sociopath.

    [sorry about it being two parts but it was complaining about the character count]

    ReplyDelete
  32. Why does my 2nd part keep getting deleted?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Part 2:

    Sociopaths often think the world of themselves. They KNOW they that aren't the greatest person in the world but they still FEEL it. Thinking themselves to be the smartest, cleverest, coolest, awesomest person they know. But they don't show this outwardly. They always think they're right. There will be exceptions for them.
    {Holmes knows he's smart. He knows he's clever. He often thinks that everyone around his is dull and average and possibly a little bit stupid. He thinks he's right all the time unless something pops up to prove he's not right, but unless it's conclusive he still has the feeling that he's right.}

    There is a diminished sense of remorse, shame, guilt, etc. Again, it's like empathy. Say they saw someone cross the road and then get hit by a car. The normal person probably feels [oh, I should have seen the car coming and called out to that person. Oh, I could have saved them, I'm sure.] Sociopaths don't have that kind of illogical guilt. There was nothing they could do. They didn't see it coming. They didn't know the person. It has nothing to do with them. Why should they be guilty? And they aren't. However, if they were directly responsible for the horrible death of a dear friend THEN they would feel guilty, but it probably wouldn't linger for the rest of their lives.
    {Displayed in the way Holmes deceives people, or disguises himself, or even when one of his clients dies or something and he gets over it very quickly indeed.}

    Sociopaths have a need for stimulation, be that mental puzzles or physical activity.
    {Holmes is always like this. He says so himself.}

    Sociopaths are also manipulative in subtle ways, and sometimes even quite open ways. For example, say you saw your roommate pull up in the driveway come back from shopping. You know they'll have groceries and want you to help bring them in. Maybe you don't want to help so you chose that moment to be taking a shower so you are unable to help. From the roommates point of view, it isn't your fault, you were in the shower at the time and couldn't help. They can't blame you.
    {Holmes is manipulative is this subtle way too. Not necessarily for lazy, mean reasons like above, but all sorts of way and reasons anyway.}

    These are all qualities of a sociopath.

    The other qualities are:
    -Poor Behavioural Controls/Impulsive Nature
    -Early Behaviour Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
    -Irresponsibility/Unreliability
    -Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle

    However, with proper upbringing these are easily prevented from manifesting. So it is with Sherlock Holmes and myself (though I am a little impulsive at time and used to be quite irresponsible and have only recently begun setting out a realistic life plan).

    Sherlock is a sociopath.

    [sorry about it being in two parts but it was complaining about the character count or something]

    ReplyDelete
  34. Consider actually reading about what makes a sociopath a sociopath, and I think you'll find that nearly everything you've said is in direct opposition to all established literature.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not necessarily for disempathetic sociopaths. We can actually form a small number of emotional attachments. It's difficult and not at all a common occurrence for us, but it is possible.

      Delete
  35. The fact that you disagree does not support your case. It just means that you're wrong and don't know any better.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Well then please, explain your case.

    ReplyDelete
  37. The burden of proof is on you, sport. The DSM-IV supports my position that your opinions on sociopathic empathy, guilt, lying, and that nonsense about babies are wrong.

    Your pathetic little fanwank obsession with Sherlock Holmes doesn't help you, either.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Very well. Sherlock Holmes being put aside now.

    Most literature (in the form of official documents), particularly the older ones, have only the extreme negative cases to work with. People who act violently, badly, criminaly, etc. The well behaved sociopath often doesn't stand out enough to warrant analysis.

    Had I not diagnosed myself as a sociopath I'm sure I never would have found out, unless I was to stumble into a therapist's office for some reason.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Have a look at this perhaps:

    http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

    ReplyDelete
  40. You've not addressed the severe problems with your opinions.

    Fine, using your source, perhaps you should also read it, specifically the passage on callousness/lack of empathy, the section on lack of guilt or remorse, etc. Your source contradicts you at every turn.

    You're not a sociopath, you're just a sad little person trying to be a special snowflake. You've already admitted to empathy and guilt, which take you right out of the running by any clinical definition.

    ReplyDelete
  41. No, I'm not addressing the severe problems. Because I don't believe I (or Sherlock) have the severe problems.

    I did read my source.
    I have no admitted to empathy. I have infact frequently been told that I come across very cold. I've had pet cats go missing for weeks and I know I should feel worried but I don't, nor am I incredible overjoyed at their return. It's not to say that I don't like my cats, I'm like this with everyone. Currently my grandfather is dying of cancer. I don't feel anything for him. Nor do I feel guilt for not having empathy in these situations. My grandfather will probably pass on and my world won't change at all.

    I didn't find anything contradictory in my notes.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Sociopaths tend to show their emotions a little more openly to those that are very close to them: family, friends, lovers. With these people they can feel empathy.

    If I'm to take it that you're a sociopath, as you claim, then I must also take your second claim that sociopaths feel empathy. Ergo, you must feel empathy.

    However, if they were directly responsible for the horrible death of a dear friend THEN they would feel guilty, but it probably wouldn't linger for the rest of their lives.

    Same reasoning.

    Jumping in the shower to avoid bringing in groceries isn't manipulative, it's just lazy. Anyone would do that.

    You're living a fantasy, and it's pathetic.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Aaw. Thankyou for taking the time to try and insult me.

    Yes. I stand behind what I said there about empathy and guilt. That is what marks the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath.

    Psychopaths feel no guilt, empathy, emotions, etc. None at all. No matter what.

    ReplyDelete
  44. And you have exactly zero evidence to support your claims. Unless you've got something worthwhile to say, go find somewhere else to play. I'm sure there's a Sherlock Holmes erotic fan-fic community that would welcome you with open arms.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Now where did you get 'erotic fan-fiction' in all that?
    Honestly...

    And I'd hope that you were capable of:
    a) seeing that I was talking about Sherlock Holmes because that is the topic after all.
    b)not use the same point over and over to try and make me feel bad. Enough about Sherlock Holmes.

    But if you're set about this unprovoked hateful behaviour then very well. I'll go else where.
    Waist of my time really.

    ReplyDelete
  46. I'm going to say this one more time, very slowly, for when you inevitably refresh this page to rage at my response; you seem to be missing the crux of my comments.

    Your.

    Opinions.

    Are.

    Illogical.

    And.

    Ill-founded.

    They are not based in clinical reality, nor any other.

    Your self-diagnosis is invalid because you do not understand the diagnostic criteria.

    Your opinions are invalid because you draw a line between sociopathy and psychopathy (incidentally, these identical conditions are currently mere labels for people with ASPD) which is not in accord with accepted medical fact, and you do so with absolutely no evidence to support these opinions.

    ReplyDelete
  47. I'm going to say this one more time, very slowly, for when you inevitably refresh this page to rage at my response; you seem to be missing the crux of my comments.

    Your.

    Opinions.

    Are.

    Illogical.

    And.

    Ill-founded.

    They are not based in clinical reality, nor any other.

    Your self-diagnosis is invalid because you do not understand the diagnostic criteria.

    Your opinions are invalid because you draw a line between sociopathy and psychopathy (incidentally, these identical conditions are currently mere labels for people with ASPD) which is not in accord with accepted medical fact, and you do so with absolutely no evidence to support these opinions.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Part 1: I'm going to say this one more time, very slowly, for when you inevitably refresh this page to rage at my response; you seem to be missing the crux of my comments.

    Your.

    Opinions.

    Are.

    Illogical.

    And.

    Ill-founded.

    They are not based in clinical reality, nor any other.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Part 2: Your self-diagnosis is invalid because you do not understand the diagnostic criteria.

    Your opinions are invalid because you draw a line between sociopathy and psychopathy (incidentally, these identical conditions are currently mere labels for people with ASPD) which is not in accord with accepted medical fact, and you do so with absolutely no evidence to support these opinions.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Postmodern is correct, Anon.

    Perhaps you have confused Narcissism with Sociopathy.

    ReplyDelete
  51. To future readers, kindly ignore the duplicated posting. Blogger is occasionally weird and does not show long comments until a few hours later.

    ReplyDelete
  52. I am a sociopath, but it doesn't make me insane or a bad person. I can manipulate and sometimes I do, but not for money. If anything motivated me to manipulate like that, it would be sex, not money. I was in the Army. I killed people in Iraq and I have not lost one night's sleep over it. I lie constantly, but more in a joking manner and I make my lies fantastic so any rational person would know I must be lying and if asked, I will confirm that I was joking or lying. I'm not sure if I can love another person. I only have one 'friend', but if he were to perish tomorrow, I wouldn't cry for him, as I didn't cry for my great uncle, my grandmother or my mother. I knew I should have cried, everyone else was and I tried to fake it just to blend in a bit. I started to feel awkward to see people I didn't know crying over my mother and her son is just staring at her and his watch back and forth.

    I see a shrink, take meds and all that crap. I don't understand why I am the way that I am, but I didn't do it to myself and I don't like the way things are, but I can't force myself to feel differently, I can must make it look like that. I have also always believed that I was better than other people. I am intelligent, in shape, attractive, clever, methodical, thorough, and driven. I believe I can do anything and everything I do I will be at least better than average. I will know success with a higher frequency than other men. However, I may never know love. I am a normal guy. A normal guy that has a problem, one that I have to deal with every single day that I still breathe. So in closing, let me say, FUCK YOU. Fuck your stupid website and your postings and your protection of the free world. I am not evil. I am just sick and I make due the best I can. Just because I am not the same as most other people doesn't make me bad or make people need to notice and find me because I am going to hurt them or try to rob them out of money. That is a huge flaw in your system for me. I don't care about money. I don't desire the 'finer' things. I am completely content with Sex, Pot and Video Games.

    There are 50 mil of us in the world? well I guess that sucks that there are 50 mil wolves in a planet of sheep. I don't know how we all survive with so many dangerous . . . what am I? A Sociopath? Whatever you say, as long as there are so many of us around, I guess my secret is safe, for now.

    ReplyDelete
  53. And btw - Modern is correct and I want to leave you with a thought about your Sherlock Holmes.


    Hero worship exposes a lack of independent intellectual examination

    That's from an episode of Bones, but it has some truth in it. The biggest faux pais I can see about your specific case is that although Mr. Holmes is an entertaining character and diplays several virtuous qualities, the least of which not being his obvious intellect and extreme powers of observation and deduction, he is after all is said and done, a FICTIONAL character. This 'MAN' was created to entertain, not to be idolized. If Mr. Holmes acted appropriately and not in a fashion that, god knows why, people think would be cool, then there would never have been a movie. The books would have slipped deeper and deeper into obscurity until most people responded Sherlock who? He lives on a street with Bakers? Sherlock . . . is he Jewish? Oh, Holmes, it's a Mexican show?

    Be the man you want to be. If you notice a quality you admire in someone else or something else, just assimilate it into yourself and idk, build and shape yourself into the person you want to be. The good part is that if you really want it, you won't have to go through the motions as much or copy and paste so much into your blogs. Independent intellectual creation. Your OWN ideas. Fucking Fantastic.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Late to the thread, but Holmes was based on a very real person. Dr. Joseph Bell, Doyle's medical tutor, but carry on. BTW, this site has been very eye-opening.

      Delete
  54. I'd say the Scarecrow from Batman Begins is more of a commonplace sociopath than the Joker. The Joker is completely bat-shit insane. The Scarecrow takes a clinical interest in the effect his psychogens have on people. He watches them, unemotional and unaffected, as they scream and writhe, whereas the Joker laughs his head off in his overdone Large Ham acting.

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    Replies
    1. psykopath-I-logicalNovember 7, 2013 at 6:08 AM

      Loki is also an example of sociopathy I think-he dont threaten and feels dismissive of sentiment.

      Delete
  55. I've got an ironic addition to Anon's quote from Bones-- I know it's late and the day and irrelevant, but it was so perfect I couldn't resist.

    "Don't make people into heroes, John. Heroes don't exist, and if they did, I wouldn't be one of them." -Sherlock Holmes, BBC Sherlock.

    I can't decide if this Sherlock is a sociopath or just wants to be. I suppose that goes back to a post on here from quite a while ago that I've recently read about the possibility that sociopathy is a form of ADD-- simply not paying attention to emotions-- or not having them.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. i think he wants to be. there are several instances when he says quite proudly that he has managed to keep himself detached/divorced from feelings and sentiment. i guess a sociopath would never bother with patting himself on the back for this.it would just be a fact.a reality. from an earlier post of someone who says they are a sociopath it's also clear that since they would not mourn their departed family or friends, it's unlikely they would choose to commit suicide in order to save their life.
      i think bbc holmes is written towards the direction of being a sociopath, but hasn't gotten there.i hope it won't either. but he does make a conscious choice of avoiding sentiment. he says that several times. he finds it to be a weakness, and from an intellectual point of view he is right. emotions are messy, and cloud judgement, because of all the hormones released in the organism. and you can't fight chemistry.that is why he is affected by drugs- in baskerville- and why sociopaths in treatment take medication... altering the chemistry definetly alters the balance. that's why there are so many passion crimes in the history of the world.
      a choice made of free will - to which he doen't stick 100% - does not make him a sociopats. sorry for sociopaths fans and wannabes. if you are one, you hardly need the validation of a tv character. let's just enjoy the entertainment

      Delete
  56. Sociopaths can tickle, whereas aspies tend to scratch...

    ReplyDelete
  57. I am a very high functioning asperger, and I don't think sociopaths are cool. I do think sociopaths are people and deserving a human dignity, and that's it. Sociopaths are denied the very ability required to engage in the most natural of human behaviors. I am very indifferent to emotional displays, but I have feelings and they run very deep. I am grateful for my ability to feel. I don't pity sociopaths as I don't really think they suffer; I imagine they enjoy their condition as it is who they are and sociopaths are notoriously conceited. After all, how could narcissistists not love their own narcissistic selves? I suppose people admire their detachment from the follies of human emotion; fair enough, but what about the beauties of human emotion? Sociopaths themselves enjoy the vigor of human feeling; perhaps it is their vicarious way of experiencing our suffering and joy? It isn't cool, or in my very detached opinion deserving of pity. It just is. I feel the same way about my condition as an "aspie" or whatever. I can't relate to sociopaths at all. I feel terribly bad when I realize I have hurt someone else. However, off subject, completely off subject, I have realized, as a very high functioning aspie, that people really are drawn to me, and open up their darkest secrets to me at the drop of a hat? Why is that? Is it because I am removed, or they can tell I don't care too much? Weird. If I were a sociopath I guess I'd take advantage but as an aspie I just typically find it really annoying.

    ReplyDelete
  58. I did a bit of research on the net and there's not really such a thing as a "high functioning sociopath." At least that's not a term that any competent psychiatrist would use. After watching the first episode of Sherlock, I concluded that he's actually the same thing I am, high functioning autistic. This is a very newly acknowledged phenomena due to research coming out of...I think it was Oxford University. People think of autistics as being barely functional individuals who bang their heads against walls or as savants that never speak but can play anything on a piano after hearing it only once. High functioning autistics appear mostly normal, but the signs are there if you know what to look for. Social ineptitude, obsessive compulsive behaviour, ritualisation of daily routines, high iq but low eq etc. Sherlock fits all those criteria and more.

    ReplyDelete
  59. There is certainly such a thing, I am one myself. To use a somewhat common example, high functioning sociopaths are more likely to be successful politicians or CEOs, while low functioning ones often end up in prison. Anyone who has read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, specifically the example of J. Robert. Oppenheimer poisoning his chemistry professor knows that the difference may be simply experience and training, but there is a difference. And in response to the "he may just have an autism spectrum disorder" idea, he is perfectly capable of interacting normally, due to his intensive observations of the citizens of London, but doesn't feel a need to do so. A great example is his line "Why would someone still grieve over their daughter ten years later?" which implies that he to an extent understands immediate grief. To me, the difference between a sociopath and an "aspie" is that an "aspie" does not understand social interactions and the rules thereof, while a sociopath understand, but considers him or herself above them.

    ReplyDelete
  60. For the reviewer saying that "sociopathy is not the new cool". It seems more like you aren't understanding what the show is saying. The character of a sociopathic Sherlock Holmes is not to make it into a new fad for teens all over the world (although that has happened in the process, most likely unintentionally). I will admit that I have gone into research about sociopaths because of the show Sherlock, but also mainly because after seeing that show, I felt that maybe I was one myself. Sherlock has a lack for people's feelings as it was shown very early on in the very first episode. The TV show is mainly just opening the eyes of people that may only have a vague knowledge of what a sociopath is or may not even have heard of the term in their life.
    It's wasn't created to create a new trend or a new found liking in sociopaths, it was probably just a very good story plot and a good foundation to put a thriller to. Then comes the first series finale when Sherlock meets the bomber, it is almost like a battle of the sociopaths.
    I honestly don't think Moffat or Gatniss were trying to create a new trend, it's just they found something that was worth writing.

    ReplyDelete
  61. IMPORTANT!

    Please, Everyone,

    I'm a Sherlock Holmes fan, and also a psychologist specialized on personality psychology, and I'd like to emphasize a few things:

    First: knowing the original stories and many adaptations, I'm 99% sure, that Sherlock is a high functioning Asperger's, he's NOT a sociopath- it's only the BBC series' writer's fantasy. Neither is House- he has NPD with borderline tendencies.



    Second: 'sociopath' and 'psychopath' are the SAME thing, only different areas of medical and psychological research and different countries used different terms.

    Finally: about the 'cool- not cool' discussion: for anyone, who was robbed, injured, cheated or humiliated by a psychopath, or even heard about a case like that, it can't be a question.
    Of course media can make a lot of things cool for 15 minutes, but that's only smoke and mirrors.

    ReplyDelete
  62. That's funny, the media I watch doesn't glorify us, it depicts us as mostly mindless monsters and criminal psychopaths who lack any sort of logic, ethics, philosophy, or basic understanding of their own vested interests.

    Most sociopaths in the media seem taken from Dr Hare's handbook of criminal sociopaths and psychopathic narcissists. The truth is we're intelligent beings and far more diverse than we are given credit for.

    ReplyDelete
  63. The Sociopathic Sherlock Holmes to me seems like a positive step at acknowledging that not all (or even most) sociopaths fit the stereotypes that many have come to expect.

    Self aware high functioning sociopaths are often reasonable, ethical, philosophical people who try to live as harmoniously as we can with others. It's in our interest as well as theirs.

    It seems today that every narcissist and cut throat thug is considered a sociopath though, sociopath has become the new buzz word for Evil.

    Excuse me, I am not "evil" I understand basic reciprocity and have a concept of rights, just because I don't share your hormone dripping feelings and reactions like some scared, infatuated, or outraged little monkey doesn't make me a monster.

    ReplyDelete
  64. There's nothing wrong with valuing oneself highly, punching society's rules in the metaphorical face (whenever one can get away with it) and using others who are less clever to further one's goals, thereby securing a comfortable lifestyle.
    Sociopathy?
    Piffle.
    It works for me.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Yup. Just as wtf? said OMG. Where do you random people come from? Seriously, freakin weirdos.
    Oh, BTW... Postmodern is a Narcissist, not a sociopath. Read his blog. Complete loser fodder.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Hello...
    I am speaking as one of the more avid Sherlock fans. Recently my mother has purchased a bumper sticker for me--
    "high functioning sociopath on board".
    While by NO MEANS am I trying to offend anyone, I'm sure it could be taken that way. While to fellow Sherlock fans it might be a bit less offensive (I'm trying to quote, not make a statement...if that makes any sense) I bet the majority of people who read the back of my bike will either not understand, or feel at least somewhat offended by such a bumper sticker...

    I really want to put this on my bike but I'm not sure how people would react to this. I feel awful when people make fun of people with OCD and ADD, and I doubt anyone would appreciate the existence of this bumper sticker if they were to interpret it as... well, people could interpret it a lot of ways...
    What do you think...?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As a high-functioning sociopath... I'm really not sure what the fuck you've got your panties in a bunch over.

      It's a quote from a reasonably well-known television program. If anyone is offended by that, it's their own damn fault for being weak and oversensitive.

      Delete
  67. In case that you still wonder, He IS indeed Obssesive-compulsive. It's obvious that you haven't even botherend in checking the traits of the obssesive-compulsive disorder in deep. People with this disorder, tend to isolate themselves from others, meaning that they try to ''feel with the head'', meaning? the try to see everything throught intellectualization so they can keep themselves emotionally detached. Now, about the need for stimulation, it happens in people that got this disorder that they often ''feel empty'', so they got some habits that they need so much to fill that ''hole''. It happens that they have a emotional hole left by parents or significative figures when they are children so it's quite normal to see them having these kind of issues. Now, the sociopath got trouble in forging deep-bonds with people, since they see them as a mean to have a need fullfilled. They think of people as vehicles to take them from point A to ponit B, nothing else. If something happens with these people, they get anfry, are easily frustrated, but cant feel empathy. Now, about the moment when he says he doesnt know why the woman would still be upset, it's obvious that he is thinks rationally, not emotionally, and that's what most people do when observing at a series of facts. Think more like a predator, like an animal, who only feeds itself with others.

    I've read all sherlock holmes stories so I can tell, that he is far from being the sociopath type. Now.. if sociopaths, psychopaths (-these being considered narsisists right now-) and obssesive-compulsive are a lot alike, well, just in some ways, little ones, since some obssesive-compulsive have some borderline traits as narsisists do, but aren't borderline themselves.

    ReplyDelete
  68. I agree with KataB. If Holmes has any real diagnosis (remembering that he's a fictional character and therefore created to be fascinating, not necessarily to fit a diagnosis), I'd say he's high functioning autistic. Why?

    Sociopaths are more likely to trend to dishonest manipulation. To someone who doesn't know them, they are more likely to be very likeable, because they will often mimic the best aspects of a socially engaging person.

    Aspies are not socially engaging and can't mimic it more than briefly at the best. Many *would* mimic being engaging if they could, but find it too difficult. However, many aspies are extremely observant of other people, sometimes in an attempt to be able to fit in. The problem is that they cannot read others very well. However, aspies with the talent to act, *can* act a part. But the sociopath is more likely to read others better and mimic well.

    Sociopaths can be charming. High functioning autistics, or aspies, cannot be charming.

    Sociopaths are much more likely to lie, whereas aspies can be so concrete about things that they tell the extremely blunt truth more often than not, and don't see why it's not socially acceptable to be so blunt.

    As part of lying and manipulation, sociopaths often far overstate their knowledge or abilities or experience, and often do not have the vast amount of knowledge or skills that they may claim. High functioning autistics or aspies, tend to amass lots and lots of specialized knowledge on specialized subjects. They will often categorize and catalog their knowledge to an extreme degree.

    Aspies are very often quite visual/spatial. In looking at verbal versus visual/perceptual ability, they tend to skew toward visual/perceptual. That doesn't mean they don't have strong verbal skills. Many aspies have high vocabularies and can write well. But their greatest gifts are often visual/perceptual (which may include math and music, by the way). If Holmes were an aspie, it would make sense that he could hone his ability to observe to such high degree. And the idea that he could carry a map of London in his head makes sense as well.

    Aspies are often fascinated with numbers and often have a greatly heightened recall of numbers and number patterns. In Doyle's Holmes, he often knows the train schedules and other detailed numeric data.

    Aspies are obsessive, even if not technically OCD.

    Aspies often *seem* to be emotionally removed from things that others would find moving. However, aspies have very deep feelings and a strong moral code. It's just that the moral code isn't necessarily society's rules, but the autistic person's own view of what the rules are or ought to be.

    Oh, and last many asperger's people tend to speak in a bit formal manner. In kids, psychologists will refer to the "little professor" tendency. In adults I know, it's like they are often giving a lecture, rather than a conversation. Holmes is a bit like that.

    I see Holmes as more Aspergers. He's very visually observant, his sense of direction speaks of 3-D visual/spatial ability, he's highly musical which means he's got a strong math side. He amasses huge amounts of extremely specialized data. He's blunt to a fault. He's just as brilliant, knowledgeable, talented and experienced as he claims to be. There's no false front with Holmes. He's not charming and doesn't care to be. He's a decent actor occasionally, but he can't fool you into thinking he's really charming over the long haul. He simply can't. He's very obsessive. He appears at first to be unemotional, but can actually care very deeply about certain things and certain people - it's just that he does not care in a socially acceptable way.

    So no, I don't think Holmes is a sociopath, regardless of what the writers of the BBC Sherlock think.

    Karen

    ReplyDelete
  69. Folks, Sherlock here is a constructed character, therefore his sociopathic, OCD, or other tendencies will always be, at best, a collage of the writer's ideas about what he is or isn't, so trying to debate the subject as if he were a real entity is somewhat foolish.

    High-functioning sociopaths do tend to be self-aware at some point. And intelligent enough to notice the differences between themselves and others. We're also able to self-correct our behavior to effectively conform to societal norms where it suits us. The key words being "where it suits us". A sociopath is neither "good" nor "bad", but only lacks the built-in "safety mechanisms" that non-sociopaths usually have in place. So a sociopath with no other underlying issues that would predispose them to violence or malice would have no desire for same; in fact, sociopaths are just like everyone else in one regard - they just want to be happy and do whatever they feel like doing. A sociopath with paranoid tendencies would be a potential problem. But sociopaths can and do learn various skills that truly approximate "having a conscience". I personally am very attracted to Buddhist philosophy. I recognize that others are like myself in that everyone just wants to live their lives in peace, and that suffering sucks, and techniques and philosophies that help to bring about a decrease in suckiness and an increase in happiness are good. But it is absolutely true that we have nothing even remotely like "guilt". In all my life I have never felt guilt. The closest I get to guilt is thinking in retrospect that a different choice of action would have resulted in a better outcome, but I use that knowledge to edit my behavior should a similar instance arise in the future. Can I translate that for others via body language and wording into what they will interpret as "guilt" - to an astounding degree, yes. But while I do so, I am not feeling guilt, I am gauging my behavioral output against their response to assess if my communication is being received as I intended.

    That makes some people shudder to think that such people exist, but I can state with absolute certainty that I am one of the most steady, trustworthy human beings you would ever meet. I like who I am and I put a great deal of energy into ensuring I maintain my outer impressions - not so I can get away with anything, but so I can look at myself and know that I am operating in a manner that I feel is honorable, and in a manner I would hope others would be able to maintain as well. The old "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" thing. It's not that hard. It's scary for others, though, who don't have a concept of what they'd do without the controls of guilt, remorse, empathy, etc.

    So back to the character of "Sherlock"... He has a few sociopathic tendencies, is hyperintelligent, and has a few other traits, but the most revealing thing is that he self-identifies as HFS. With his intelligence, if he said he is a HFS, I would believe him.

    D

    ReplyDelete
  70. I definitely don't think Sherlock is autistic. He's plenty sociable when he wants to be. Autistics are frequently getting frustrated when trying to socialize. Sherlock seems to be fine as a shut in, as long as he can find something to stimulate his mind.

    Sherlock also seems to be somewhat guided by morality. In the boscombe valley case, he let's the guy go because the victim was clearly an asshole.

    I also don't get the claims of people being a high-functioning sociopath. In order to be diagnosed with a personality disorder, not only do you have to show the characteristics of that personality disorder, but it has to cause problems. If you are a happy person, and generally not causing problems for others, then you're not a sociopath. That would simply make you a quirky person.

    Sherlock may have some traits of ADHD. He is bored with the ordinary, constantly needing stimulation, and doing drugs when really bored. This is interpreted very abruptly when something piques his interest, which he expends all of his energy on. People with ADHD can easily be distracted by small things. The state of his apartment is further evidence. But then his attention to detail contradicts this, so I'm forced to conclude that he is a fictional character without a real disorder.

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  71. Anonymous immediately above... you are mistaken about high-functioning autistic/aspergers. I know several high functioning autistic individuals who socialize quite a bit. They are not necessarily frustrated. Some who actually want to "fit in" do often feel frustrated. Others do not care that they don't really fit in and therefore don't mind how they are coming across - abrupt, sometimes rudely blunt, often in lecture mode. As for whether or not a high-functioning autistic individual can handle being alone or "shut in", well of course many are perfectly happy with it. Others do enjoy being around others. There are people with Aspergers who are strong introverts and others who like around others.

    I agree that Holmes is not ADHD, but you are mistaken when you think a person with ADHD is necessarily always distractible. When faced with something they are highly interested in, they can instead hyper-focus, to the point that it may be difficult to pull their attention away. Holmes does that, but I don't think he's ADHD. People with Aspergers hyper-focus as well, so it could be another aspect of that.

    K

    ReplyDelete
  72. Point is that someone with autism would have a hard time putting on a disguise or doing most of the acting that sherlock homlmes does. If you've ever interacted with an autistic, you'd know that they are "themselves" and have a hard time pretending to be something else.

    Yes, autistic people might like to withdrawal. This might be because they can't understand their unpredictable nature, or find them overstimulating. Holmes on the other hand finds little enjoyment in interacting with others. This is in line with the negative symptoms of schizophrenia, however he has never shown any positive symptoms of schizophrenia. But Holmes is a bachelor by choice, and seems quite happy with it, so it's not a disorder at all.

    What I meant by distracted, was that when a client with a story that he finds interesting comes in, he'll immediately drop whatever it is he's doing (or not doing) and immerse himself in the case.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Actually, I do know or have known quite a few people with high functioning autism - that is aspergers - some friends, some friends of family, and some my own family. And several of them are pretty good actors. Some people assume that the individuals they know, especially people with aspergers, are an indication of all others, but people with aspergers have all sorts of personalities and abilities. If you read a lot about autism, especially aspergers, you will find that it is not strange at all for a person with aspergers to be able to act. This is because some are so very highly observant, they can act a character if they have already planned out what they are going to do. But they are unable to spontaneously, as themselves, interact in a more normal fashion. Some people with aspergers will pre-plan what they will say and how they'll act on a particular occasion and can do somewhat well as long as they are following their internal script. It's just that once you get off their internal script, they can't keep acting. This is, for instance, why some people with aspergers can write excellent fiction, because they can observe and understand people, but more in an objective sense once they stand back and give it some thought. What they can't do is read emotion or the other nuances of how a person is communicating facially and verbally. Nevertheless, they may be watching very closely what the other person is doing and saying.

    By the way, a person with aspergers can learn, over their life time, a lot about how to read people and how to respond. It may never be completely natural, but these are often highly intelligent and highly observant people. Temple Grandin,(sp?) who was not as high functioning as many people with aspergers when she was much younger, says that she has learned a lot over the years in knowing how to respond and how to understand what others are communicating.

    We see Sherlock Holmes, whether on the BBC show or in the books, as an adult. As observant and highly intelligent as he is, as well as very motivated to understand others motives and intent, he would have learned, even if he had aspergers, a lot over time about reading others.

    Holmes can figure out the facts of what a person is doing or saying quite easily. He can observe them closely and see tell-tale clues in their actions, physical characteristics, etc. But that doesn't mean that he actually "gets" the nuances of their comments and emotion.

    There's a difference also, in the way Holmes in the BBC Sherlock is written, versus Doyle's Holmes. Doyle has Holmes connect a little bit more with his clients. We see Holmes moved on occasion by their circumstances. Sherlock on the BBC show is, in my opinion, less high functioning that Doyle's Holmes, because he is less likely to see and understand the deep feelings that are being communicated by others.

    As for Holmes dropping everything for a case, this is actually what most people do with their work versus other pursuits. If, for instance, you work at home (which I have in the past) and are doing something non-work related, you will often drop everything when a call comes in for your work and pursue that instead. Holmes drops everything else, with the exception of a more important case. He'd even drop another case if he wasn't really needed, but really, when you think about it, why not? However, once involved in a fascinating problem, he will hyper-focus on it to the exclusion of all else. I don't think he's ADHD (neither do you, as you said), but the hyperfocusing thing is done by ADHD people - and people with aspergers. :)

    K

    ReplyDelete
  74. "I did a quick search and turned up this question on answers.com."

    Stopped reading right there. It seems being a sociopath doesn't equate intelligence. Numpty.

    ReplyDelete
  75. To clarify some of the inaccurate information said above:

    1) Sociopaths DO NOT have feelings.
    There are other similar conditions that somewhat 'dull' feelings in the individual, however, the definition of a sociopath is someone whose limbic system doesn't work the same way the limbic system of neurotypical people does. There is nothing 'cool' about them, it is an impairment, as opposed to Asperger's which is an atypicality.

    2) I've studied the Sherlock Holmes stories excessively as part of my research and the character is clearly portrayed as someone with Asperger's syndrome. He does have feelings but he is not open about them. The TV show Sherlock clearly has it wrong, probably under the influence of Dexter (who, by the way, isn't portrayed as a real sociopath either. He is described as a sociopath in the series of books but the TV show has made Dexter into a hero.)

    ReplyDelete
  76. These comments are rather interesting. I am generally considered to be a high functioning sociopath. Few comments are objective. It is perhaps people's curiosity that makes it interesting, somewhat exacerbated by the medias coverage of such pathology. In terms of being properly mentioned in everyday life it has only really become popular so people know little about the subject.

    If you speak to the majority of people I know I would be surprised if any were particularly upset by anything I do. University life has taught me a lot about different situations. As a result of the life I have experienced I have seen few social situations and in new ones I do not understand what I am supposed to do or react. In university I experienced other people's bereavements etc. however upon experiencing my own I didn't really react.

    Someone mentioned mimicking. This is pretty much what I do all the time. I have upset many people in my life but generally those who I have contact with most of the time. I think this has resulted in me being forgiven rather easily. My university friends strive to help me understand and are very accommodating but everyone there is something new I tend to react to it in what seems the most logical.

    I must agree that Sherlock is not a sociopath. By any means. He definitely has feelings. Irritability clearly a major one for him.... To back up someone else's comment.

    Just thought a comment from someone who has been considered a sociopath for most of my life. I say most... As when I was little it wasn't considered.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Sherlock Holmes always reminded me of myself and I have Asperger's Syndrome. Sherlock Holmes is also based on one of Doyle's instructors at medical school, who almost certainly had Asperger's. Holmes' intellectual curiosity being a more prominent feature of his personality than his narcissism is very telling.

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  78. They say, "Some men just want to watch the world burn..." I reply, " No they don't, it's more like a series of explosions..."

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  79. I worry (which seeing as I believe worrying to be counterproductive in its self is a worry [rabbit hole]) that I might be a sociopath.

    I won't bore you with the details.

    ReplyDelete
  80. As a wife to a man with HFA and the mother of two girls with HFA / HF ASD, i would say that BBC's Holmes has high functioning autism.

    He is actually very much like my husband.

    ReplyDelete
  81. This argument is lame and it's making ME crazy. So STOP it. Matter of fact is that it is clear that no one has all the answers where psychopathy and sociopathy are concerned.Is there really need for this mind numbing exchange? It's like the two of you are attempting to be all cool and dignified in your insults and i bet you both think you're rather witty. No/ You both suck and need to shut the hell up already. Shees....

    ReplyDelete
  82. @@LStacey

    Cool story, bro.

    ReplyDelete
  83. It is a little funny reading how the lot of you tries to figure out what he tried to say. He means he can switch his emotions on and off. Both cold and empathetic.

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  84. The Sherlock of that series apparently likes to think of himself as a sociopath; that doesn't mean he would necessarily classify as one.

    He plays to something like a romanticised ideal of sociopathic personality traits. Part of the popularity of the TV series' character is that he's not as cold/emotionally dead as his pretense.

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  85. i cant believe i read all that my head hurts

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  86. Postmodern Sociopath could not be anymore right.

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  87. Sherlock here!

    You're all fools.

    Nough' said,

    Sherlock

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous,

    You're a silly fool!

    -Sherlock

    ReplyDelete
  89. Dear sweet Postmodern Sociopath,

    Good jest, GOOD JEST!

    Sweet Sherlock

    ReplyDelete
  90. Well, I actually think that's how Sherlock thinks of himself - it's not actually true, as we get to see later on in the story.
    But that's only my personal opinion... and I'm fifteen, so don't count too much on it!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I quite agree with you.
      I think the character claimed to be a sociopath because that is how he likes to think of himself.
      The writers weren't trying to glorify sociopathy; in fact, in one interview I'm fairly certain they explained that he was not actually a sociopath.

      Delete
  91. I wonder what would happen if we grabbed a handful of socially inept ego fiends and put them in a box with pictures of someone they want to be...
    Aha.
    Find out what makes you tick. Make some rules. Ride that wave. The only thing that hinders anything you do is your own pathological existence.
    Of course you aren't going to get a group of people, who fail to agree to norms of society, agree on anyone representing them.
    Fact: neurologically, a sociopathic brain is wired completely differently than someone 'normally' integrated in society.
    Ergo. Any emotions a 'normal' person is feeling is speaking an entirely different language than those of personality disorders. So stop misrepresenting and misunderstanding a minority which already has to deal with social stigma and bloody pasts. It gets pretty fucking annoying when the only thing one can find to relate to on the Internet is the sods who can't get out of their chairs.
    I can guarantee a 'normal' person would CRUMBLE under the levels of frustration and negative feelings some are exposed to daily. Our brains are wired this way for survival. Anything else is unfortunate. Understand?...doubt it.
    As for the private detective. Are we diagnosing a fictional character based on a doctor of the 1800's? 1800's I say! I wonder if the social norms have changed since then, or if that has any bearings on the one failing to follow them durhurhur. If you admire the chap, then stop diagnosing him to be like you, as TEMPTING as it is, and deduce something for yourself. Properly.

    ReplyDelete
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  95. Holmes isn't a sociopath he is more of an asperger sufferer

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  101. This is my understanding so far of the issue...
    Media likes short and straight to the point presentations. Creators/tailors of contents for media knows from their experiences that majority of media consumers tend to pick up faster/react faster/gets an impression quicker from simple/to the point message deliveries either in visual/text base/still image/video, sound/verbal, and or combination of all(combination of media`s can create greater impact on how media consumer pick it up/digest)
    Why sociopath? A sociopaths has a characteristics such as fast to make conclusions and take actions based on biased cognitive process that would best serve their interests/goals/objectives (basically self serving/self centered/the world revolves around them and for them kind of mind or attitude).
    And potential results can be as following...
    Media consumers see/hear the fast decision making characters/icons/leaders in movies/stories with conscious or sub-conscious state of mind repeatedly from different similar content from various forms of media... Especially with the modern visual&sound effects, it make/frames/position/impressionalize those characters to be easily perceived as positive/good/ideal/(so called cool)... Over time, repeated exposure of contents can influence media consumers to behave or think directly or indirectly, some what similar or lineant to what the content is/was. My words written above are not based on scientific research. My words above are based on my personal life experiences and perspectives/sense making.

    But one thing for sure, we all need to understand what is the reason for existence of media, intentions of the distributors of contents via medias, ability to question and analyze(or even investigate/research) the contents delivered to us(media consumers) and understand. Once we have the understanding, we can deny the influence, at the same time being open to perceive it as an expression of art/fantasy. Education systems for all generations especially the coming new generations must be revised to minimize unwanted influences that can potentially lead individuals to cause physical or mental harms/anything negative to others or self.
    If you have read all the above, thank you for your effort to take time to read. If there are any unclear points or have any questions, please do not hesitate to reply or contact me. I would be honored to answer/discuss/debate.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Oh, and Holmes... His mind crosses over many subjects(physics, psychology, mathematics, history, current issues, logic with varieties of approaches, social science, culture, etc...) in a very short time period. He takes actions after thinking/cognitive mind process based on all forms of accessible information and knowledge he has/had or will have. Note that he also have ability to simulate/visualize/imagine the potential outcomes so if and when events or situations arrives, he can almost instantaneously react with much clearer understanding of the moment.
    Sherlock Holmes is a character I admire. But can I ever become him? hmmm... no... But I will try to learn to think more and more each situations in life(pasts, presents and potential future) and make the best choice and action that is moral and ethical.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Sherlock (the show) is stupid. No show that has to make everyone else incredibly dim and forget *the very basics of their jobs* in order to make a character look "brilliant!" is a good show.

    Don't waste your time with it. Watch Luther instead.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Luther is the best! Sherlock is fun, but not nearly as good.

      Delete
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  105. This was an amusing thread. And so much focus on Sherlock. There was another hidden sociopath in BBC Sherlock. Im not suprised you ordinary *shock face* and boring people didnt figure it out. But then again brains wasnt given out on the same day as fruit.

    ReplyDelete
  106. "so we go round the sun. if we went round the moon, or round and round the garden like a teddy bear, it wouldn't make any difference! all that matters to me is the work!", Sherlock.

    "how about death? are you not thinking about it?", me as John.

    CAN ANYONE CONTINUE?

    ReplyDelete

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  108. Politician, Corporate Executive, Corporations, Banker, Billionaire, Investor... this is what the Neo Fascist present glorifies, so, this is what the media tells us is cool, because, if we thought it wasn't and if we connected the dots we'd realize just how dangerous and destructive this arrangement is. Oh wait: economic collapse, widespread poverty, suffering, unemployment, conflict. Some people have got this message out. If it wasn't for my radical view of capitalism I'd be a text book sociopath, but as it remains, I despise these people like no one else, except the religious. Anyone stupid is forever in my crosshairs and I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on any or all of them given the opportunity.

    ReplyDelete
  109. He's not a sociopath. He is a high-functioning person with Asperger's Syndrome.

    ReplyDelete
  110. To answer your last question, I feel that the reason the common public is drawn to sociopaths but repelled by those with Asperger's is because sociopaths appear to be normal on the outside. Humans are very visual creatures, and when something or someone appears to be "off" or "different" on a more noticable/extreme level, they're likely to stay clear from it. I'm going to go with the assumption that it's a tribal trait passed down to avoid any unknown dangers.

    This is my personal opinion, at the least

    ReplyDelete
  111. I find this exchange kind of funny considering that Holmes's lack of empathy as compared to Watson's emotional intelligence is a central theme to the books. That's why they make such a good crime-solving duo. They each represent a different yet equally necessary form of intelligence.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Forget whether Sherlock said he was a sociopath. The question is, does he really seem like one? Could he really be one? Or was his statement a mis-self-diagnosis?

    ReplyDelete
  113. A lot of mention of HOUSE-which of course is simply a re draft of HOLMES (Holmes-Homes-house, Reddit?), down to drug use and his frustration with the quotidian struggle-always fighting off a boredom that always seems on the verge of tearing him apart-looking for interest in the macabre, crime, death, the OUTLANDISH AND THE BIZARRE...sound familiar folks?...

    ReplyDelete
  114. What does it mean to lack a conscience or empathy?

    When getting really scientific about it they talk about hard-wired automatic reactions.

    Could a person lack such reactions and just choose nevertheless to create a moral code and follow it?

    And then even by choice even go as far as conforming their life very closely to how they would've acted if they had that hard-wiring? (Which Holmes clearly doesn't do, just that he does enough)

    Would a person who can behave as if they have a conscience and have empathy or not and even practice it to the point where it's a second-nature sort of act but who knows they could and would switch it off if the world were to change dramatically enough where it no longer served their calculated interests count as a sociopath?

    Maybe they protect the innocent, and love and care for their friends and family because those things like anything else they choose to do just pass the time and fit nicely into the deliberately constructed storyline of their life? Maybe they feel nothing in their body when they have done something "wrong" according to their code but will still engage in the appropriate behaviors to remedy it towards others because they've decided that's how they want to live.

    ReplyDelete
  115. You doing well then until you compared Asperges Syndrome to Sociopaths.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There is a lot of crossover in traits and Sherlock was also suggested by another character on the show that he may have Aspergers. Aspergers are treated like little darlings and special little teacups in the media and sociopaths are vilified with a broad brush.

      Let us not forget that there have been some very horrific crimes committed recently by those diagnosed with Aspergers, showing that they are just as capable of violent actions as the rest of us, sociopath or otherwise.

      Delete
  116. I've done a lot of research of the difference between being a psychopath and a sociopath and I've come to the conclusion that Sherlock has a low form of sociopathology. Comparing all of his emotions and actions to being a sociopath there are many similarities. Being a sociopath does not mean you are incapable to love, it means it's difficult for you to love. Sherlock's lack of empathy, low tolerance of boredom, risky behavior, and high intellect show that he has a low form of sociopathology. This low form of it is not one to be scared about it's more of an antisocial problem.

    ReplyDelete
  117. The masses glorify people for playing fetch with one another (football,etc.) and making asses of themselves on TV (Kardashians, etc.) so what is wrong with glorifying high functioning sociopaths that contribute to the overall wellbeing of society? (even if they do it for purely selfish reasons).

    They treat us like the bogeyman so they can feel better about themselves and try to ignore the fact that non-sociopaths commit horrific and violent crimes and that the seeds of the evil they project on others also lie within themselves. I have seen "regular" people act with intense cruelty and viciousness more times than I can count. They just need to justify it within themselves first.

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  118. http://whatdoestheinternetthink.net/#

    ReplyDelete
  119. Well, I don't believe myself, after much internal scrutiny, to be possessed of any significant amount of prejudice towards sociopaths. So I think I'm not being emotionally reactive by bringing up this recollection of a detailed and deeply analytical post by a Psychiatry student; arguing that Sherlock was more of an Aspie than a sociopath. A fellow writer with experience in autism also opined that he could be a highly-functional autistic, claiming to be a sociopath because he'd rather be hated than pitied.

    So now I'm a little confused as to who is right. Or would this be a case of fictional characters, particularly complicated ones, always being up for interpretation?

    ReplyDelete

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