Wednesday, August 4, 2010

Female sociopaths and BPD (part 2)

My response:
Yeah, this is interesting. I'm assuming you're female? I sort of wonder sometimes why BPDs are typically female and ASPDs are typically male. I do think that the extremes of both those conditions are very distinctive, but I wonder if women who demonstrate traits from both tend to be diagnosed BPD, while men tend to be diagnosed ASPD. What do you think? How did you get diagnosed BPD?
The reader:
Well, they say there are a lot of similarities between the two, but just as many differences. One of the main differences I've noted between ASPD and BPD, is individuals with BPD have been described as on the 'border' of neurosis and psychosis- which, I'm sure you already knew that, but it helps the point I'm about to make. Now, I was once upon a time diagnosed with psychosis, but that was during the time I refused to cooperate with my treatment and/or therapy sessions, and I'll be the first to tell you I NEVER experienced any hallucinations that weren't really there. So much for psychosis, eh? Of course, I'm not implying that hallucinations are inevitable or even present with BPD, just the principle of having once-upon-a-time being diagnosed with something so far-fetched. Now, neurosis; I've also read/heard individuals describe BPD as a constant state of remorse, low self-worth, etc. in which case, I'm the complete opposite. What I feel isn't a clusterfuck of mixed emotions, in fact, it's an emotional vacancy. Although, I do wonder if it's possible to have both? Apparently, it's easy to misdiagnose those with ASPD with BPD instead, and just as well, if a personality disorder such as BPD goes untreated for such an extensive amount of time, it's possible for it to 'manifest', I guess, in to another personality disorder.

I've often found myself asking the same questions about BPD and ASPD. You know, that maybe BPD is just a female's version of sociopathy, ha. But, I can tell from my own experience and research that's not entirely true. So, if I've already been misdiagnosed on several occasions, then it's possible I may have been misdiagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder.

Yes, I am female, by the way. Now, how was I diagnosed with borderline personality disorder? Oh, boy, I wish I could tell you. Unfortunately, not even I am entirely sure how they came to that conclusion, heh. I imagine it has something to do with my reluctance to cooperate- I was never honest. Although, I used to self-mutilate, but not because I wanted to die or because I hated myself. It was more so for the adrenaline; it provided a momentary high every time I did it. Maybe that's the reason it was so easy for me to become addicted to. But, I never told anyone else that. I guess it's safe to assume they interpreted my self-harming behaviour as a 'cry for help', or an attention whore's way of saying, "I hate myself. Please, someone pay attention to me!!!!one11!1" That was never the case with me. I didn't WANT help. All I wanted was to be left the fuck alone, but my mother was- and still is- such a worry wart, that's like asking an African-American to stop being so black.
.... Just not going to happen.

Another guess is, at that time, I was in that violent romance I mentioned earlier. When I say 'violent', I mean we used to get physical with our fights. It wasn't your typical man vs. woman where she may hit him and he not hit back, or he strike her and she falls to the floor like a damsel in distress. No, this was equivalent to two men fighting; he'd sock me in the face, I'd haul off and retaliate all the same(or vice-versa), then we'd start turnin' tables. My mother was there to witness a lot of our altercations (how classy, right?), so when I wasn't cooperating with the therapists, she'd step in and talk for me, ha. So, in turn, they knew about him and I- some good, but mostly bad.

All in all, I couldn't tell you why they diagnosed me with borderline personality disorder. I never thought my psychologists was that bright to begin with, and after actually studying these things, now I KNOW he wasn't that bright. Hence why I came to you; you're an anti-social, yeah? You know what it's like and you're on the outside looking in as opposed to my situation. I find it's hard to 'diagnose' myself because the information is so biased, but then again, I know myself better than anyone.
Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of labels anyway. I basically consider "sociopathy" to be a buzzword for a cluster of personality traits, a particular world view. As a diagnosis, who cares if you are or not, it's not treatable anyway. But for trying to learn more about yourself by talking to others similarly situated, I think it has been really helpful for me at least.

49 comments:

  1. "I NEVER experienced any hallucinations that weren't really there."

    That's what my crazy uncle says. He poured boiling water over his childrens' toes and melted the skin together. You two should hook up.

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  2. Dont Worry About ItAugust 5, 2010 at 11:42 AM

    Your uncle probably couldn't tell the difference between his hallucinations and reality. He sounds like a real romantic, though.

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  3. I have to do an oral report on BPD. The prof. gave out a list of what topics to present to the class and I ended up with this topic. When I started to research this I immediately felt like I was reading more about bipolar than BPD. After some more reading I learned how there are some overlapping traits between the two. BPD is personality, emotional deregulation, fear of abandonment and self mutilation whereas bipolar is more of mood swings, bipolar 1 more serious than bipolar 2. The causes for BPD seem to stem from childhood trauma or stressful events that happen in adulthood and trigger it.

    There is a test, I forgot what it's called, given to people who are considered to have bipolar that can be misleading and these people really may have BPD, articles on dailyscience.com suggested this. So these people end up on meds for something they don't have and of course it doesn’t work. No meds for personality problems only talk therapies and applied behavior modifications. With all of the traits of BPD it must be hard to diagnose. I rented a tape of how one with BPD experiences the world. I will watch it over the weekend but it will be interesting to get a perspective from someone who has been properly diagnosed and what their treatment is like and if it helps.


    Grace

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  4. I used to self-mutilate, but not because I wanted to die or because I hated myself. It was more so for the adrenaline; it provided a momentary high every time I did it. Maybe that's the reason it was so easy for me to become addicted to.

    I'm pretty sure that this is the reason that most BPDs cut themselves. For the adrenaline, to feel alive, or to release pain. Not a cry for attention or necessarily an expression of self-hate.

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  5. I agree. That adrenaline can give a person with BPD a jolt of energy they are lacking from a depressed mood. I also think that cutting is a distraction from the emotional pain. Physical pain may be more tolerable than emotional pain. But I wonder if it's a strong reaction to self hatred...that makes sense to me too.

    Grace
    Grace

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  6. Doesn't matter one way or another. That would actually require me to feel the emotional pain, no? So, what if said emotional pain is absent? Still going to cling to your diagnosis?

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  7. I don't cling to any of this. So what do you think about your mental state? Some of these conditions overlap each other. Everyone's experiece of their mental state is different. Do you want help? If not then don't worry about it. If you do then try any kind of therapy suggested or do more research for yourself. People with BPD benefit from cognitive behavior therapy. Try it and see. They sell workbooks for this at the bookstore. Read it and ask your therapist about it.

    Grace

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  8. That post wasn't directed at you, first of all. Secondly, I didn't come here to seek help, nor do I want it. I'd initially submitted the article to get feedback because while certain BPD traits are obvious, others aren't. In which case, it contradicts the 'condition' so I wanted other perspectives, as well. Then I mentioned that it might have been possible to develop another personality disorder alongside of BPD, or manifest in to something else. I've been through therapy- the whole nine yards. If I really wanted help, I'd go get it, and considering I haven't bothered ever since, I probably won't.
    As far as my mental state is concerned, I'm more than content with it and have been ever since those 'symptoms' starting really showing themselves.

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  9. Oh sorry. I thought you were directing that at me.

    The physical fights that you mentioned, reguardless of who started them, do you have a history of that happening with boyfriends/friends? Just wondering about that.

    Grace

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  10. I definitely have a history of violence, but it was never limited to just friends and/or significant others. Family members, strangers.. it was pretty much all the same to me. I was kicked out of the house a few times by my step dad due to so many conflicts. But, I felt like he was stepping in to territory that he had no business in. I was pretty defiant, and he expected me to live up the expectations he'd set for his biological daughter. You know, the Miss Do-Gooder, fairly wealthy husband, two kids, nice house with a white picket fence. While I applaud her success, that's just never been my cup of tea.

    .. BUT, the bright side to the story is, he's passed away so mother and I's relationship has certainly improved. :)

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  11. Why do you keep saying Grace

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  12. If I believed ME capable of feigning such idiocy with a straight face, I'd conjecture that our troll is just his way of filling the boredom between posts.

    Probably just wishful thinking, though.

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  13. It is, I don't even know him

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  14. "I was kicked out of the house a few times by my step dad due to so many conflicts. But, I felt like he was stepping in to territory that he had no business in. I was pretty defiant, and he expected me to live up the expectations he'd set for his biological daughter"

    I know about this kind of treatment. My mother is an alcoholic, recovery for 30 years but not much different in her thinking or behavior. Point is she was and still is very controlling. As a teenager I could never give into her will and she threw me out of the house many times. My father was always on my side but he didn't live there to help me with her. I never became the perfect daughter that she could show off to her friends. Now that I'm successful she tries to take credit for it but I just smile and let her think that. She is a good grandmother to my son so I try to get along for his sake. But the moment she pulls that crap with him that will be the end of her in his life.

    There was violence in my house growing up between my parents and older brother. I was too young to understand any of it but as I became a teen I started fist fights with boyfriends. It continued into my early twenties and then I had to get some help for it..but not very much. It made me feel bad about myself and confused me. As I got older I understood myself better. I don't feel that impulsiveness anymore but I have been in some less than healthy relationships. Now I’m getting better with all of it. Thanks to a relationship with a sociopath, that ended, I have learned a great deal about myself. I hate to admit it but it really was a blessing in disguise.


    Grace

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  15. WHY DO YOU KEEP WRITING GRACE !!! And also, nice piece of life, a bit depressive tought.

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  16. It's her alias (or maybe real name). Was that not sufficiently obvious for you?

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  17. "Thanks to a relationship with a sociopath, that ended, I have learned a great deal about myself. I hate to admit it but it really was a blessing in disguise."

    Zing. I've had the (mis)fortune of dating a sociopath, and I've been with a narcissist, too- both of which taught me quite a few things with out even realizing it. We're just all one big happy family of Cluster B personality traits down here.

    "There was violence in my house growing up between my parents and older brother. I was too young to understand any of it but as I became a teen I started fist fights with boyfriends."

    The violence in my household was mostly my biological father's doing. Of course, I was too young to recollect any of it, but one instance included locking my sister and I out of the house while he tried to take a hammer to my mother's skull. He abused her emotionally, verbally.. never actually put his hands on her, per se', other than trying to smash in her skull, but after that, we eventually went in to hiding, yadda', yadda', yadda'...
    Long story short, my father was a reckless, crazy, substance-addicted fuckhole and I've never spoken/seen him since. My sister's no exception to the violence, either. In fact, sometimes I question whether or not she's worse than myself.


    Ze mann, her efforts to include her name helps me keep track of who I'm speaking with considering how many people use 'Anonymous', so quit'cha bitchin'. Thanks.

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  18. No but she could put it in her name

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  19. Why? It's equivalent to putting it at the bottom of her post. I doubt she's going to alter it just to suit your expectations. Get over it, move on. Discussion closed.

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  20. No this is still a post so let's just discution about the post

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  21. My mother was the one causing all the trouble in my house. My father was from Europe so he didn't know much about American women when he came here. He just adored her but as she got older she changed/developed into a different person. She became overpowering and controlling. But no one in the family was controllable..not my father my brother or me. So it just caused everyone to go their separate ways.

    I think about the impulsiveness that came when I would punch a guy. Where the hell did that come from? It's bizarre. I haven't had that feeling in years. My therapist knows this about me but he was surprised to hear about it. He doesn't think I have BPD he thinks my mother does..lol.

    Grace

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  22. "I think about the impulsiveness that came when I would punch a guy. Where the hell did that come from? It's bizarre."

    Was there anything in particular that invoked these impulses? I.e, a fight before hand, something they said, something they did? Usually when I threw a fist, it was very well justified, even if I may have started the conflict in the first place.

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  23. Me, I have to be hurt to replicate, phisically or mentally

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  24. there would be an argument and I would start to feel frustrated and overpowered, probably because I was loosing or I was wrong, and I would suddenly swing. I couldn't handle it. None of these guys, there were only a few, ever hit me back but eventually the relationships ended, usually by me and then I would always have guilt and shame about it.

    At that time I started to worry that if I had children I would abuse them and it frightened me. After I got some help I stayed out of relationahips for a long time and it never happened again. I knew that I had to watch when it came to confrontations with men anda I had to just walk away before it ever got heavy. Nothing is that important for me. I walk away from my son when I get frustrated and I never get that feeling but I wonder if that part of me is still there. I think my son has helped me get more controll over my feelings too.
    As a matter of fact he is standing here wanting to go on the computer to play Scoogy Doo games.

    Grace

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    Replies
    1. yes you would. You shouldn't have children in at least, say 10 years. You are a mess ! Egocentrical bitch, not suited as caretakes. Unfortunately most of them have a lot of kids. Why shouldn't they ? Since they never do anything wrong. Well, at least you have regrets, which is where change starts. But it does take time and for some it will never really happen. They just get older and by nature less physical abusive

      You have to realize that most of your punches, if being in a desert with a stranger you didn't know, would not have taken place. So you are basically a coward that only fire against those you feel pretty sure won't or can't do you any harm. Therefore, children are in your danger zone.

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  25. I see that. But he was standing here and started to read what I was typing so I just posted it and closed the screen. He's only seven but he reads well so I have to watch.

    Grace

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  26. Ok, then why don't you lock the door and let him bang on it til you finished

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  27. is that what I should do...ignore him like I should ignore you?
    He's only seven. I'm sure your older than seven..but not by much.

    Grace

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  28. your right, 10 years isn,t much

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  29. That's what I thought. It's not just your age you know...it's your mentality. I don't mean that in a negative way either. I mean you may not understand the context of everything you read on this site and it could confuse you..and your already confused about stuff so be careful. Grace

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  30. What stuff is confusing and what is supposed to confuse me

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  31. Forget it. Go on with your thoughts. It's just my opinion. Nothing more to say.

    Grace

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  32. Hey, hey, NO, I want to know what's supposed to b confusing cuz' it's really confusing :D

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  33. I've worked with a lot of people with the label borderline personality disordered. Here's my take on things...many people with BPD self mutilate for what they call adrenaline, some say it's to release pain or as an expression of self hatred. Based on speaking to people who have been diagnosed BPD not all are, I think someone coined the phase, a "clusterfuck" of emotions. People don't usually fall into discrete catergories. You may have BPD but have other things going on as well that cause your emotions to be less obvious. The feeling of adrenaline that some people who cut get, based on what I've been told, is a way to feel an emotion or express emotion that is repressed. You may not be feeling sad/other but the cutting makes you feel something = emotional expression. I might just add that true sociopathy is relatively rare. BUT if you have been diagnosed as a sociopath, and this may be unbelievable for some, you can actually be diagnosed with things like depression, anxiety and so on. As I mentioned before people and their mental state, even their personalities are not static. They change over time with new experiences and so on. A person can be largely sociopathic or histrionic or borderline, for example, and still have other traits thrown into the mix. I think this is why it is important to, if you want/need treatment, (a) see a professional for a label and (b) keep working with that same person until you get where you feel you are at your best (even if that isn't perfect in the eyes of others). I hate labels and if it were me I would choose not to see myself as a diagnosis. Let's say I was told "you have BPD". Fine. You can still work to be the best person you can be by your own standards. The only time you will end up as an involuntary patient is when you threaten yourself, others or are a general risk and these decision surrounding making a person an involuntary patient is not one taken lightly. The doctors who do it get absolutely dragged over the coals to make sure they were right. Sorry, I am rambling now. Anyway, message is. Whatever your label in life, we all have them for others and ourselves, just try to do the best you can with what you have, try to be the best person you can and above all be as accepting of yourself as you can.

    Cheers.

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  34. I love labels, they bring prejudice

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  35. What I'm confused about is splitting. I read about it but each source explains it a bit differently and there are some different theories on it.

    When I had depression I felt I needed to keep it within a small circle of close people and that was all. I never told anyone I worked with, people that I wasn't close to and never anyone that I knew would be critical of me or label me….that’s where the “labeling” would happen. To me it's just a diagnosis..no labels.

    The right diagnosis leads to the right treatment. Usually people with BPD don't respond much to medications.

    Grace

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  36. Hi Grace,
    However you choose to look at your situation is fine - if it works for you then ace. With the talk about labels and diagnosis etc...in my experience these two words are often interchangeable both inside and outside the healthcare system.

    It is great that you had people in your life you could share your experience with. My opinion - this is crucial to anyone who is experiencing mental illness either acute or long term. It's strange but I've noticed people don't mind being called depressed or bipolar etc - most seem ok with those labels because it means there is potentially something that can be done. I've not met anyone, depressed people, people with personality disorders, schizophrenia that is okay with being labeled mentally ill. Labels, society desperately needs them but no one really wants one!! :)

    This is the way I think of splitting - let's take BPD as an example. It is essentially a defense mechanism where a person will see others as either all good or all bad but not in between. People with BPD use this to defend their idea of self from "attacks" real or perceived because their idea of self is so undefined and transient.

    To make that clearer. Let's say a person's boss, is typically a cheerful person and is overall fair and good to work with. One morning the person comes to work and this boss whom they have a good opinion of and like is in a shit of a mood. The boss yells at them for no good reason and the person walks away upset and annoyed. The next day their boss is back to normal and even makes an apology. Most people would class this whole event as a good decent person who had a shitty day, responded inappropriately having a bad moment but believe them to still be good overall. A person with BPD will likely now see this person in a very negative light, have taken the attack consciously or subconsciously as against their identity. The defense is to protect themselves now from this person - this person is not a safe individual any longer. It is difficult to explain but that has been my understanding.

    Also, you are right. The right diagnosis leads to the right treatment BUT that right diagnosis can be very elusive sometimes. This can be as a result of practitioner error and sometimes as a result of patient non-compliance i.e. you cannot be treated if you don't believe you have a problem. With BPD you are also right, very few treatments work. The people who I find are most successful see a regular doctor or other professional that they have some rapport and trust with, who make an effort to address their issues (as difficult as that may be) even if that doesn't always work and take medications for the aspects that can be controlled i.e. depression and so on. I knew one person who decided that instead of cutting, every time they had an urge to cut and didn't they would put aside money. When they got a strong urge to cut they used the saved money to get a tattoo - not for everyone but worked for them. The good news with BPD is that, for those who survive to 30 (there is a high risk of suicide in this group), many become much better and begin to establish identities that are much more solid and generally find life easier. That is not the rule but sometimes happens.

    The field of psychology/psychiatry is always changing and there will always be changes because there is so much to learn about the brain and personality and so on. For example, there is evidence that deep brain stimulation, used for some people with Parkinsons and a few other conditions, may be able to be used in those with Schizophrenia. I hope some of this info has been helpful.

    Anyway, good luck in life.

    A very interesting blog here too.

    Cheers.

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  37. Thank you for the info on splitting. It's a bit clearer to me now.

    I'm reading the book I HATE YOU DON'T LEAVE ME. Lots of good info in that little book. I have to present a power point report on Tuesday on BPD for this summer class I'm taking and you have helped me. Thanks!

    Grace

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  38. Is it about bipolarity ?

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  39. no borderline personality disorder.

    Grace

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  40. IDK why, but that name makes the disorder sound bad

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  41. Sounds scary right? What's sounds even scarier is "untreated borderline personality disorder."

    Grace

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  42. Nope, it sounds ridiculously long that's all. And I don't understand why should it be scary

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  43. Ze (silly) Mann,

    Stop saying grace all the time already! Leave that for those who actually have the nick!! >:/

    (sillysillysilly...!)

    Zhawq.


    Ps. This was Zhawq being silly.

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  44. M.E.,

    you say here that:

    "I basically consider "sociopathy" to be a buzzword for a cluster of personality traits, a particular world view."

    but elsewhere you write:

    "Sociopathy is a personality disorder."

    Personality Disorders are not World Views!

    It is true that certain Philosophies tend to be considered "psychopathic ways of thinking" and so on, but it should be remembered that the Psychopath or Sociopath label pertains to our culture (hence it's focus on behavior first and character traits next).

    You also seem to use terms such as Sociopathy and Antisocial Personality Disorder interchangeably, but they are today considered to be two different things (the former being genetic and largely inborn, and the latter being a Personality Disorder brought about during childhood and or youth).

    How can you not have learned about this?

    If the purpose of your blog is to simply gather a random mixture of articles and comments about Sociopathy, Psychopathy, Antisocial Personality Disorder, and related conditions, described and approached from various view points, then by all means do so, but why not state it as well ... make it obvious to your readers, that you have a broad interest in these topics but no set view or agenda yourself?

    I'm suggesting this because one does get the impression that you are hoping to influence the discussion positively in a way so that Sociopaths (or people with ASPD?) may gain recognition as a genuine minority rather than a menace that should be eliminated.

    Can't you see the confusion here?

    .....

    I enjoy the articles at your blog, and those that you link to. I also enjoy many of the posts you yourself have written. I'm merely pointing to inconsistencies that I may not be the only one who noticed, and if my impression about you wanting a little more with your work here, you may appreciate my candour.

    Good luck ahead!...

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  45. Corection here: "... and if my impression about you wanting a little more with your work here is correct, you may appreciate my candour."

    (... forgot 'is correct')

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