Tuesday, March 22, 2016

What's you vs. the disorder?

I've heard a lot of explanations for why despite being disordered, there's still something beyond that worthy of moral condemnation. Let me unpack that a little more -- a lot of people will acknowledge that my brain has certain deficits (e.g. empathy, recognition of my own emotional states, etc.), deficits that I never asked to have (i.e. born or acquired/developing by the time I was an infant or toddler). But despite acknowledging that is true, there is something about me that is still morally abhorrent to them. So since they feel that way, they often try to come up with logical reasons to justify that feeling. I've heard a lot of variations on the theme, to list just a few: (1) I still have the power to choose, so I should (or at least could theoretically) just choose to go against all of my hardwiring, 100% of the time,  just by sheer strength of willpower (just like gay people can can choose to go against their hardwiring and act straight), (2) everybody has brain problems and we can't allow people a "get out of jail free" card for their brain issues otherwise no one would ever try to surmount their brain problems and society would collapse (although this one doesn't explain why the moral animus, i.e. why I am morally culpable, just that people think I should be economically responsible for the harm/consequences of my actions), (3) I was created evil or am some sort of devil that is inherently morally wrong. But actually the one that bothered me most at the time that I first heard it, perhaps because it was in part used to justify some very bad behavior towards me, was "it's not the things you've done, it's the way you feel about them." To this person, I had not done anything truly objectionable, it was more my lack of guilt about having done them. They said, it's not your disorder that is a problem, it's your attitude about it. I never did reply, it wouldn't have mattered at that point, but internally I yelled -- the disorder is the attitude.  

I thought about this again while watching the movie Still Alice, about someone with early onset Alzheimer's. She gives a speech about what her experience of that disorder is that I thought was remarkably like living with anything that is both part of you, and not really -- where the lines of what is you and what is the disorder blur, particularly in the minds of other people:

  The poet Elizabeth Bishop once wrote: 
   The art of losing isn’t hard to master. So many things seem filled with the intent to be lost that their lost is no disaster. 
   I am not a poet. I am a person living with early onset Alzheimer’s, and as that person I find myself learning the art of losing every day. Losing my bearings, losing objects, losing sleep, but mostly losing memories. 
   ***
   All my life, I’ve accumulated memories; they’ve become in a way my most precious possessions. The night I met my husband, the first time I held my textbook in my hands, having children, making friends, traveling the world. Everything I accumulated in life, everything I worked so hard for, now all that is being ripped away. As you can imagine, or as you know, this is hell, but it gets worse. 
   Who can take us seriously when we are so far from who we once were? Our strange behavior and fumbled sentences change other’s perceptions of us and our perceptions of ourselves. We become ridiculous, incapable, comic, but this is not who we are, this is our disease. And like any disease, it has a cause, it has a progression, and it could have a cure. 
   My greatest wish is that my children, our children, the next generation do not have to face what I am facing. But for the time being, I’m still alive, I know I’m alive. I have people I love dearly, I have things I want to do with my life. I rail against myself for not being able to remember things. But I still have moments in the day of pure happiness and joy. And please do not think that I am suffering, I am not suffering. I am struggling, struggling to be a part of things, to stay connected to who I once was. 
   So living in the moment I tell myself. 
   It’s really all I can do. Live in the moment, and not beat myself up too much, and, and not beat myself up too much for mastering the art of losing. 

It's an interesting thought -- if something has a "cure" or is "treatable" or at least alterable, does that mean it's never "you"? 

133 comments:

  1. Someone gave me a framed copy of the following:

    “The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, the education, the money, than circumstances, than failure, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company... a church... a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice everyday regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you... we are in charge of our Attitudes.”

    ― Charles R. Swindoll

    ~Vegas

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  2. It's not "moral animus."

    It's complete difference. The difference is not moral, ME. I wish you would hear me on this point.

    There is a gulf far beyond comprehension and I'm trying to argue as loudly as I can that the difference is antisociality not amorality. It's critical to recognise this if anyone is to ever progress the conversation.

    Stop the outrage about neurotypical hypocrisy. Sure, we're all hypocrites. It's NOT what's at issue here.

    I was in a leadership training course today and one of the facilitators paraphrased Paul Keating:

    "Always back self-interest. You know it's always the horse that's really trying."

    The difference is antisociality. Neurotypicals cannot comprehend it. We can't understand it until it happens to us. Hence my approach in the book. Believe me, ME. Not even psychologists, unless they specialise, get it.

    Antisociality.

    Further - I've never heard any group outside the church bang on about morality so much as sociopaths. And maybe narcs for control reasons.

    Antisociality.

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    1. North I cannot express how much I agree with you. There is something in the morality issue that seems to capture socios every time and knock them back down a few levels. Its like they get so close to understanding and then they lose it. I think it's the inherent fear they have of losing freedom. They cling to morality for some reason. Its fascinating, insulting and maddening to me.

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    2. Socio apparently think we are just small minded about their amoral actions. Hello socio-thats not it-nons are just as amoral. We are however mad as hell when you violate our personal rights.

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    3. But socios must blame something-someone. Its nons small mindedness. I'm being incredibly sarcastic by the way

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    4. And socios there is a reason why fraud is punishable by law and it's not because we think its"bad" when people lie-its because it's used as a weapon to intentionally harm others .

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    5. Yeah North, I hear you. :)

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    6. I personally avoid acting in ways that might get me in trouble (because I value my freedom and generally don't like living in midst of chaos if I can avoid it) but if there is a situation or a person that I don't see as part of my future I might not care.

      Something happened some time ago that could be labeled antisocial. I basically turned by back at someone who probably thought we were friends and tried to get what was essentially hers (and after a lot of hassle I actually succeeded. OK, that was just bragging).

      The thing is – and I'm not trying to defense myself, I'm trying to explain my behavior – that I personally don't get emotionally upset about stuff that others might find antisocial. I generally encourage competition and games.

      So yes, I can sort of foresee that people might get annoyed over something or even hate me for what I do but I don't usually foresee or understand mental suffering that this annoyance might cause people (hurt, depression, stuff like that). It generally surprises me when people tell me this is how they feel.

      Of course over time I can learn to understand that if I take someone's lollipop they might get hurt or depressed but if I've already left that person behind then I really couldn't care less. I just don't think about it.

      I could promise myself that I'll never act in ways that I suspect might make people suffer (like I've promised myself never ending up in jail) but I doubt that I'll do it and perhaps that makes me antisocial.

      "May the bridges I burn light the way," like my sister likes to say.

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    7. The fact is-the reason why sociopaths are terrified of society-is that we don't care if you agree or understand or comprehend that what you do is wrong. we know it's not in our best interest to be terrorized by any one individual or group of like minded individuals who blatantly disregard the rights of others.

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    8. The bridges you burn make it easier for us to spot you.

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    9. This is exactly why I don't burn bridges, I build them in a certain way that they'll colapse by themselves at some point, and it will seem irrelevant to me. We are not all so stupid guys. Some of us are pretty serious. We're not just looking for an empath to play around with, that's the last thing I'm looking for at this stage of my life. Some of us have serious goals. You're not that all interesting. And we're not all that stupid. We're just not your friends.
      -VN

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    10. VN what are your goals?

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    11. You've all added flesh to the bones so nicely.

      Thanks for your perspective, Lola. I find it so interesting to read of your surprise; it reminds me of neurotypicals saying here that the sociopaths in their lives were often similarly surprised at the pain their actions seemed to trigger. So it comes back to the disjunct of modes, I think, and perhaps to ME's questioning around culpability.

      And I find VN's descriptions so compelling. (S?)He seems more deliberate. Serious, as he says.

      I think there are elements of both in **-*'s behaviour. It was a chess game he played with me. But I don't think his intent was to damage. He wanted to seduce me and take the pieces he designated as king and queen. As for the behaviour that was hurting me, he explained it as teasing. And I remember explaining to him that being persistently deceitful upsets people because they make decisions based on the lies (implying squandered resources.) He listened as though it were a new concept to him. And once when I told him I cried he said he didn't want me to cry.

      I don't know. He could have damaged me far more than he did, could have ruined my career, for example.

      VN and XK: I don't think sociopaths are stupid. My history here is all about comprehending the nature of the psychopath so I can create a better understanding of the human condition. I highly value your perspectives and have zero ill intent. I lose my patience sometimes because I feel I'm on the cusp of something powerful, an encompassing view of the human condition, a foundational understanding of behavioural drivers below socially created layers. Normalisation is key to the socialisation aspect; a drive to ensure survival - including equitable allocation of resources (sense of personal fairness re time, space, energy and material resources) and maintainance of social position - is another. These are shared by neurotypicals and psychopaths. The toolkits for fulfilling those drives are different between the cohorts.

      But I want to validate this model and it takes someone else to step outside of common models to do this. You guys have neatly explained how foreign your minds are to ours. And I know there's a huge element of risk in what I'm asking of the people here. But the reward is immense. Better understanding, better practices. The tension A points out still remains and it's not for me to even think about that domain.

      I don't have any animosity towards **-* and none to anyone here. I learn so much about myself I this place and as I mentioned I am in a way working out my own salvation. Sometimes it's not pretty. That's me. I am raw and unrefined at the moment.

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    12. And I have been calling things out about sociopathic perceptions of neurotypicals for a reason. Different modes mean different perspectives. Neither one is absolute or correct; it's merely a lens. I'm capable of making space for the psychopathic perspective, and of gaining value from your lens. I have grown my own worldview. The value of a psychopath doing the same, of at least accepting the possibility of value in the neurotypical worldview - without impact to self esteem - is so immense; it would be a watershed.

      And it's so simple to do.

      It's really as simple as acknowledging the pure validity of your own mode, your own perspective, and the datapoints of your own experience. And then challenging the assumptions neurotypicals hold about the human condition. The neurotypical mode is equally valid for the sake of its existence put what we lack in our models is a full set of premises about what comprises human nature, what the possibilities are, the full range within this diverse and adaptive species.

      Goodness me, "good" and "evil": how many times have I explained my view that these are labels applied contextually and usually rhetorically? There's no absolute good or evil.

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    13. These posts go to clarifying an excited little flurry of tweets I pinged ME's way this morning. Before I bumped into **-*. Interesting day. Also had a lovely time at work and I know I am truly straddling the gulf between genuine connection and excited thrill. Perhaps this time I will move towards connection. I trust my self to make choices it's ready to make and worry little about consequence. Even if, as VN says, we are not friends, there is a journey my heart calls me on. And the path with heart is always the right path.

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    14. but this is what we control
      your heart

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    15. The journey is called destruction
      your heart is a game
      you are vulnerable
      you're a moth drawn to fire
      -VN

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    16. http://datingasociopath.com/2013/06/15/the-cycle-of-abuse-in-a-relationship-with-the-sociopath-or-narcissist/ You probably have to read this North

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    17. North I believe you haven't fully realized who you're dealing with. **_* means no good. Never. It's like you want to fall down.
      -VN

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    18. And anon who asked about my goals I'd rather not say such personal things on this blog. But I assure you my brain is big enough for me to use that instead of humans, to reach my goals, except if necessary.

      North I'm a She.
      -VN

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    19. Well, that went off topic.

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    20. VN I originally thought you were female and then something made me think differently . I understand if you don't want to go into details about your goals. And I never meant to imply that sociopaths are stupid. I'm just very interested in the "drive" behind sociopaths. It seems something almost foreign to the sociopath themself. You are not the first to use the word "goal" do you ever feel disconnected from the goal you are driven to achieve ?

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    21. And north I know you are so much better prepared to deal with whatever may come your way- I know I don't want to believe anyone has any power over me. I refuse to cower in fear. But I myself have really had to think about just"what" I'm dealing with and try-really try-to give it no power. Its really a struggle for me. I wish you the best.

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    22. All this chat in absolute terms - no. Fuck that limitation. I won't be railroaded into a binary perspective! My view of the world is so much broader, with so many more colours. My model accounts for them, embraces them, seeks them. My heart is so much richer; no longer satisfied with scraps, it's nourished and fed by my own energy, the wellspring I imagined for myself 18 months ago.

      I keep inviting you to see the colours and it seems you can't. Look how powerful our own minds are once we get out of our own way!

      Do you think that means I will be satisfied by black and white? Hell no! I want rainbows!

      *jumps on horse, rides off to the mountains in search of adventure*

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    23. Don't get me wrong - I absolutely love being here and seeing the world from your viewpoint. As I've said, we can enrich each other immeasurably. That's my project. I embrace all you have to say, I feel it, incorporate it into my understandings as precious tools to find further information - even if I grasp one tiny extra frequency for my telescope, that's awesome. But it's something extra. I hope to offer a few frequencies to yourselves as well. I'm a collaborative being but I am also my own being. I struggle to convince you and I get frustrated but I will stay here for as long as it's productive for me.

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    24. Anon 10:55 - but it's NOT ABOUT HIM AT ALL. It's about me, about you. Do what YOU WANT at all times and there is NOTHING he can can do. LITERALLY NOTHING. If he wants to be useful or collaborative, fine. If not, he can fuck off. I'm not playing any stupid games with him, I'm on my own path.

      As soon as you tie back to your own self you are grounded forever. Anything you do is for you. Understand the power in that. Grasp the power in your own adaptive being. It takes so long but there's nothing that can thwart you or railroad you or push you off your own course once you have learnt to listen to yourself. The grounding is internal. Internal. Internal. Anything else is an input that you can move towards or away from as it suits.

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    25. Power is a dream. They trick you into thinking they have it. Our prisons are of our own making and we hold the key. Seriously.

      Here it is from a neurological perspective: There is orders of magnitude more info going UP from the lower brain centres (mammalian and reptilian brains) to the neocortex (rational mind) than going down. THAT is why the heart wins. Every time. If you are forcing yourself ("try-really try") to do what you neocortex says you are jamming yourself into a box and it doesn't work. "Resistance is suffering" as my friend once said.

      Instead! Here's the technique I use very successfully. I use my mind to create the scaffold for experience - it's likely x or y will happen if I follow what my heart wants me to do. Then create the "experiment". Then if your rational mind was correct, it says "I told you so" and you get a belief change.

      A belief change.

      Now understand that all feelings and behaviour and ruminations are driven by our beliefs.

      Now you see how one creates the qualitative experience of life they want for themselves.

      The other key to the process is not being afraid of your feelings. Your feelings are evolution's GIFT for navigating social situations. They are a gift. Let them run; even sadness, anger, fear - if you don't try to catch them or jam them, they give you such rich information. Amazing. And emotional experiences *facilitate neuroplasticity* - which is what we are going for here!!! We want to change our habits and *embrace* our lives richly, richly I say!! Feelings are a gift that help us create beautiful lives in accordance with our own being.

      This has been the most amazing and liberating journey for me. It's a journey, it takes a very long time because the "heart" really only learns by experience, it creates new pathways through emotional experiences. But I absolutely embrace each step of that journey, regardless of the flavour.


      love* will lead us, alright
      love will lead us, she will lead us
      can you hear the dolphin's cry?
      see the road rise up to meet us
      it's in the air we breathe tonight
      love will lead us, she will lead us

      life is like a shooting star
      it don't matter who you are
      if you only run for cover, it's just a waste of time
      we are lost 'til we are found
      this phoenix rises up from the ground
      and all these wars are over


      * I count "love" in this case to mean my own self. This is my song. This my song. This is not healing - I am endlessly adapting. I was always ok; now I am finding greater adaptations that lead to better qualitative experience.

      See!! There's no fucking box that will ever hold me. Apart from my coffin, ha! Do you think any psychopath can injure me? Hell no. How could he? He's going for weaker targets than me, let me tell you I am not worth his effort.

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    26. North I completely understand it's not about him. I feel the same. I have no interest in what they do or don't do. I know what I want and it's not them. I personally am so happy to be away from them. Literally far away. The thought of them being near me-in my energy field-is repulsive to me. Everything I struggle to do is to further remove them from myself. Mind body and spirit. I can be extremely daring and I think this experience has made me more so in many ways. I have always followed my heart and I still will. I've just become aware that there are energies that wouldlike nothing better than to feed on my heart

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    27. Life is a dance, dammit. I'll dance with whomever is willing; learn some steps, teach some steps. And then twirl on when our pace no longer matches. It's as simple as that.

      Control! Why would I try to control this incredible universe? Why would I limit it or constrain it to my pre-conceived view in any way? Flow - adapt -flow -adapt. That's my cycle!! I'm not here to injure anyone, only to dance, baby, dance.

      Cheers, SPathW. This has been valuable.

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    28. North you are very strong and I admire that about you. You look the monster in the eye. That's what I'm doing as well in my own way. I really do wish you the best in whatever you do. There are no mistakes. And I personally hate limits. I'm still learning the difference between limits and boundaries.

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    29. "North I completely understand it's not about him. I feel the same. I have no interest in what they do or don't do. I know what I want and it's not them. I personally am so happy to be away from them. Literally far away. The thought of them being near me-in my energy field-is repulsive to me. Everything I struggle to do is to further remove them from myself. Mind body and spirit. I can be extremely daring and I think this experience has made me more so in many ways. I have always followed my heart and I still will. I've just become aware that there are energies that wouldlike nothing better than to feed on my heart"

      Thanks for sharing! Yes, boundaries are important. Self preservation is important and these are new to me. I still err on the side of risk, especially at work, but amazingly my risks are paying off. People there recognise the good intent, but I know it's critical to develop more refined practices. Vision is everything: our brains create the realities our imaginations design.

      My son is telling me to work! Lol.

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    30. You have a very interesting perspective North. You know what's best. Will you do it? I don't know. I don't know you enough to know. Before I believed no. Now I doubt myself, a bit. Are you truly strong? Or is this a strong lie you've told to youself? I don't know. There's no need to answer those questions. I'm mostly wondering.

      So your opinions are pretty strong. And your view of the world is totally out of my box and most peoples boxes(box=our own reality). So what I'm saying is that they are either fake. Or you really cared to find the way that a psychopath could at least accept the possibility of value in the neurotypical worldview, without impact to self esteem, like you said. So I'm not going to question that. I'm going to question why you cared so much, to find that way. Why is this so important to your life. What will it give you. There must be a purpose. But what. I really wonder.

      This is what made me at first think that you were just finding pretty lies to tell yourself so you won't feel bad about letting tha psychopath into your life again. Maybe I'm right. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't really care. I don't know if this seems a logical reaction to you but your view of the world seems so weird and different to me, if it's real. Yeah it seems unreal. I and I believe a lot of people like me do aknowledge the validity of your perspective, the thing is that it doesn't change anything. Because we don't care so much like you do. I want to be succesful for example. And I will be. Now what you will do in your life I don't know and I don't care. You have empathy, you care to understand us. Most of us don't. This is the basis of te "problem". I hope I've understood you well and I wasn't off topic.
      -VN

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    31. North and vn I apologize for entering this conversation but it is so striking to me. I know north isn't making it up. I'm not in her head but I know it. It is a phenomenon I suppose of the collective consciousness. I never doubted her motives for a second. Why would I? If anything I injected my own personal fear but it was mine-not hers. I also understand what she means by them not being able to hurt her. I feel the same way. Even if they do hurt me they can't really. That is a little harder to explain....

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    32. Thanks VN. You are definitely not off base; your post sparked a bunch of intuitive connections that I will subconsciously order throughout the day and pull into a meaningful response. Briefly: yes, I have a meaningful, long term plan. I was a sleeping philosopher waiting for a problem to solve... **-* presented it for me. I've learnt so much and want to share it. There's an emotional component to my journey - more of that is playing out here than it did in the past (obviously to some people's chagrin.) But the intellectual component is equally - and in the long-term, more - compelling. The contrast between the psychopathic and neurotypical modes throws the starkest light on assumptions we make about humanity. I've created a philosophical system - right from epistemology and covering ground typically covered by metaphysics, meta ethics, ethics and morality. God knows what else. I'm already executing my strategy to explore these topic areas more broadly in an academic setting.

      Better models create the opportunity for better practices (I'll post the email I sent to ME yesterday morning below.) That works for everyone. You know and I am being selfish here: I really think awareness will assist neurotypicals protect themselves, but at the same time I imagine better awareness will also allow psychopaths to explore fruitful avenues to meet their own needs. I'm for freedom and responsibility: this means each adult should be in a position to take care of themselves.

      But I only have half the picture, you see!

      And look, I really have learnt so much in this place. It is interesting to hear your view that there's a lack of care, and that's the landscape so that's cool. I'll take opportunities where I can.

      Ah, few more things (have to get back to work): resilience over robustness and all those Eastern ideas of suppleness over strength. The key for me is knowing what I want and listening to my organism... I really will have to come back to re-read your post and do it justice.

      Anon 1:11: thanks, you're right. Fear is definitely something to listen to. What I didn't make clear earlier is that I certainly felt reservations, hesitancy, anger and what not over involving **-* in my book project. I've let them simmer for a few weeks until my brain bubbled up the decision yesterday morning and like the opening of a sluice-gate the crashing exploration of that very unexpectedly resulted in my actually seeing him and speaking to him. The precipitant was seeing someone who roughly looked like him lol on Tuesday. That gave me the emotional trigger and space to process what my heart was really after and to regard myself with care and compassion. That happened first, so I am now free. As I explained to my sons this morning: I follow the path with heart and allow my mind to create the risk mitigation strategies and shape the framework for the datapoints I receive ;) Thank you for your posts - they were very valuable; as I said we are social creatures and running these things by others and getting their mirror is an important component for our processing. It's something else that's new to me.

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    33. My email to ME
      ME, I know I'm being a crazy pain right now. I'm excited.

      Just try using your own experience as data. The current model of morality is wrong. How has it worked for you to date? I can assure you it didn't work for me.

      YOUR data is as valid as anyone's and you have keys to this picture I will never hold. Use your data to refine the model.

      That's how science works, it's how the brains of children work, it's how we all work until we learn to trust models (for the sake of efficiency.) What I'm saying to you is there's greater efficiency and freedom now in changing the model because our data is overwhelming it and it cannot cope!!

      I know there's a risk for you in stepping out of the code and you might just ignore me and that's cool, that's totally up to you. But I sense an opportunity now and I'm inviting you to create something. This is what I meant when I tweeted last year that you should challenge current notions of morality.

      Trust your own data ME!!! Break the model!!!

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    34. "Power is a dream. They trick you into thinking they have it. Our prisons are of our own making and we hold the key."

      True

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    35. And the "they" has wider implications than socio/empath divisions. It's worldwide. (sorry for the addition - coffee hasn't kicked in yet)

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    36. "And the "they" has wider implications than socio/empath divisions. It's worldwide"
      I smiled when I read this! Of course :) Thanks for the illumination.

      VN:
      Thanks again. Your post has given me an indication of your world and what I look like from your perspective and I'm grateful for that.

      It does amuse me a little, because I have felt I'm more likely to be understood in this place than elsewhere, but that may not be the case!

      I'm not certain, but what I feel now is a hint of that same curiosity I felt when I first discovered **-* was a psychopath. What does that look like?That sense of there being so much more to the world than my limited view can even conceive of. I think it's the universe itself intoxicating me.

      "made me at first think that you were just finding pretty lies to tell yourself so you won't feel bad about letting tha psychopath into your life again"
      I put myself in a place where I could see him. There is an unresolved element. I don't feel bad about that though. I'm exploring that element - it's a part of myself (let's call it a neural centre) giving me information about my beliefs and needs. There is an element of risk perhaps, something he can play on, but by taking my time and prioritising my self-exploration (making that the goal, as always), I really think that risk is largely mitigated. There might be some hairy moments, though ;)

      Anon 1:11:
      "Even if they do hurt me they can't really. That is a little harder to explain...."
      Do you think this might be because it's a choice we now own? Part of learning by experience? That's how I'm interpreting your statement - are you able to elaborate further?

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  3. More people need to be on http://sociopath-community.com/

    !!! it used to be connected to this blog but was disconnected over a year ago. We need fresh blood and lots of interesting things have happened recently (relates to kiwifar.ms drama: https://archive.is/M2tXa) that will go down in the forum's history! Be sure to check out http://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/ too, as some of its regulars are regulars on SC too!

    Goddamn ME refused to reconnect the blog to the forum so we SC goers will just have to spam advertisements for the forum in the comments section. ;)

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  4. Song of the Day:

    TheCure

    "A Letter To Elise"

    oh elise it doesn't matter what you say
    i just can't stay here every yesterday
    like keep on acting out the same
    the way we act out
    every way to smile
    forget
    and make-believe we never needed
    any more than this
    any more than this

    oh elise it doesn't matter what you do
    i know i'll never really get inside of you
    to make your eyes catch fire
    the way they should
    the way the blue could pull me in
    if they only would
    if they only would
    at least i'd lose this sense of sensing something else
    that hides away
    from me and you
    there're worlds to part
    with aching looks and breaking hearts
    and all the prayers your hands can make
    oh i just take as much as you can throw
    and then throw it all away
    oh i throw it all away
    like throwing faces at the sky
    like throwing arms round
    yesterday
    i stood and stared
    wide-eyed in front of you
    and the face i saw looked back
    the way i wanted to
    but i just can't hold my tears away
    the way you do

    elise believe i never wanted this
    i thought this time i'd keep all of my promises
    i thought you were the girl always dreamed about
    but i let the dream go
    and the promises broke
    and the make-believe ran out...

    oh elise
    it doesn't matter what you say
    i just can't stay here every yesterday
    like keep on acting out the same
    the way we act out
    every way to smile
    forget
    and make-believe we never needed
    any more than this
    any more than this

    and every time i try to pick it up
    like falling sand
    as fast as i pick it up
    it runs away through my clutching hands
    but there's nothing else i can really do
    there's nothing else
    i can really do
    at all...

    ~Vegas

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  5. 1) I still have the power to choose, so I should (or at least could theoretically) just choose to go against all of my hardwiring, 100% of the time, just by sheer strength of willpower (just like gay people can can choose to go against their hardwiring and act straight)

    I'm still trying to find ways I can be true to myself without being a complete asshole all the time. :P

    Sublimation is key.

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    2. I've been saying that from the onset. Now you're parroting my words and accusing me of degrading myself?

      I'll tell you what's degrading:

      Self-righteously shoving the drivel you call "holy" down everyone's throats, in spite of repeated requests that you stop.

      Calling me a devil-possessed Satan worshiper when I share one of the most personal and significant events that ever happened in my life, yet blaring to everyone that you're "holy", whereas I'm literally demonspawn.

      Worshiping a false god and his book of lies written by a disgusting, paedophilic warmonger, yet being too bloody stupid to realize that the man who composed it was one of the biggest psychos in history- whilst you vilify psychopaths, heedless of the comedic irony of it all.

      Your statement reveals that you don't even know what the word "sublimation" means, if you think I'm advocating for accepting everything about myself "as is". I'd suggest using a fucking dictionary before you make statements about things you don't comprehend, but it appears that spouting ignorant statements about things you don't understand is your standard M.O.

      You don't hear my words, you just insist on stuffing me into a box of your own construction that you've mislabeled. Just like I MUST be a man. Right, Joanie?

      Fuck off, you self-absorbed, oblivious piece of shit. I'm in no mood to put up with your self-righteous crap today.



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      Delete
    4. "Your statement reveals that you don't even know what the word "sublimation" means, if you think I'm advocating for accepting everything about myself "as is"

      Well I admit this was true. I looked up the meaning and I have to admit I would't have posted that comment had I known this before. My apologies - I will delete the comment.

      Still, no need to be so angry. Relajate.

      Delete
    5. "Calling me a devil-possessed Satan worshiper when I share one of the most personal and significant events that ever happened in my life"

      To my defense, this is untrue...couldn't ignore it.

      Delete
    6. A did share significant things. I remember that. I was humbled and awed.

      Delete
    7. Oh fuck off, Joanie. Do you think I can be bothered to go back and dredge up your asinine comments, just so as to justify myself to you? You've repeatedly asserted that psychopaths are demons. If you want to play coy and pretend you don't remember our exchange, be my guest. In fact, you probably *don't* recall, because you don't HEAR people apart from whatever preconceived notions you have about them in your head. We're all just peons in Jonaidsworld, ya fucking narc. You're in no position to lecture anyone on morality or truth, when all you do is believe lies, swallow bullshit, and consequently fertilize whatever pasture you find yourself in with it. Is that clear enough for you? XD

      But you're not fooling me with your backpedaling, fumbling attempts to appear civil and rational. So don't mistake my mirth for anger. I can see right through you, and that is quite satisfying to me. :)

      Delete
    8. I know you think you see right through me. If you actually saw through me you (I hope) would not be behaving as you are. As regards calling you or psychopaths demons, I guess I'll clarify again:

      I never called YOU specifically a demon. I cannot know that and don't think you are. As for psychopaths in general, I said specifically that psychopaths are of various degrees. The WORST of them, who know exactly which forces are operating in this world (that are not empirically verifiable), and willingly go along with the Devil & minions, YES they are devils.

      So, again, I did not call you specifically a devil and certainly never in the context of you revealing some personal struggle of yours. If anything, I would have empathized (even though I have more reason to believe you're lying than not).

      You're much too intelligent to not know this - I give you credit when I refuse to believe the veracity of your claims. Now seriously, step out and enjoy the breeze. Look up at the night sky sometimes and call out to God - He'll show you who's really being honest and who's deceiving.

      May God protect you.

      Peace.

      Delete
    9. In the name of God, The Merciful, The Compassionate.

      "Lo! men who surrender unto God, and women who surrender, and men who believe and women who believe, and men who obey and women who obey, and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and men who remember God much and women who remember - God hath prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward."

      Quran 33:35

      Delete
    10. I should add: a psychopath devil would not feel ANY empathy, ANY fleeting guilt even and would never repent. So no, you're no devil. I doubt (or at least hope) there are any real devils here.

      Delete
    11. The only way he will know for certain if I'm being genuine or not is if he ever discusses all this in person with me. When he stops being afraid and decides to end this, we'll know.

      Delete
    12. Yes, you did. You said, and I quote, "Now I know FOR SURE that you're a demon", after I described the encounter I had with Jesus in a dream, in which he blew into my heart and said it was blocked, and that I had been in danger of dying, no doubt because I had been exposing the falsehoods in your book of lies.

      Of course I am not a devil. Psychopaths are not demons. That is what I, and others, have been attempting to drive into your closed mind from the time you graced us with your presence. There are no devils, here, Jonaid- only human beings in all their imperfect glory- although this was your belief and strident assertion when you first arrived. Are you going to attempt to justify yourself and deny it, in typical narcissistic fashion? Because if you do, perhaps I *WILL* bother dredging up your verbatim quotes, just to expose you as a liar. And either you're a liar, or you were wrong. The question now is whether you have the humility to admit it. Do you?

      So. Now that we have established that you are wrong about the nature of psychopathy, perhaps we can begin to address some of your other delusions, such as the one in which you insist that I am Philip, thereby projecting onto me all of your unresolved conflict with the psycho who abused you- going so far as to insist that we are the same person.

      Your assertions are wrong: psychos are not devoid of the capacity for empathy, they have blunted affective empathy. They can experience a very shallow, cognitive version of guilt, too- but just as soon switch it off. I, and others, have attempted to convey our experience of these things. Have you listened? No. You MUST insist that your theories are correct. Otherwise, you little Jihad here is based upon... what? Oh yes. That's right. A FALSE PREMISE. Sound familiar?

      Stop trying to justify yourself with non-existent absolutes, and using them to promote your personal narratives and unsubstantiated notions.

      Delete
    13. If anything, I would have empathized (even though I have more reason to believe you're lying than not).

      You cannot genuinely empathize with someone you cannot even hear, because you are too busy defining them according to preconceived biases. Do you understand that, narcissist?

      You're much too intelligent to not know this - I give you credit when I refuse to believe the veracity of your claims

      And yet- I am have never been as honest and transparent as here on this blog. If you had the slightest concern for the *truth*, you could easily verify the veracity and consistency of my claims with a modicum of research.

      Now seriously, step out and enjoy the breeze. Look up at the night sky sometimes and call out to God -

      Thanks for your advice about the night sky. Where I live, the stars are very bright. I have a 10-inch telescope. That is just one more way in which I see more clearly than you do. :)

      He'll show you who's really being honest and who's deceiving.

      Indeed. Let's re-cap, shall we?

      In a comparative exegetical analysis, I was able to demonstrate, to your extreme irritation, the superiority of the Bible to the Qu'ran. In fact, I did such a good job of this that you literally ran away from me, refusing to engage me because my words offended you. The truth cuts deep, doesn't it?

      I showed you how Mohammed's humiliating death at the hands of a Jewish woman in the fashion that Allah himself reserves for false prophets, according to the tenets of your own religion. You even dared question the Sahih Al-Bhukari so as to preserve your ego, LOL.

      I have repeatedly called you on your insistence that various posters here are one and the same person- Yet you swear up and down that you know its true!

      I correctly deduced that you had suffered abuse at the hands of a psychopath before you shared your story, which sent you into tailspin of confession and delusion, in which you became certain that I was your abuser. I suppose I can understand that. It is disconcerting and uncomfortable when a complete stranger cuts to your emotional core via a mere cold read.

      So I ask you again: WHO is the deceiver?

      That's the funny thing about mirrors. They often reflect what we'd rather not see. But in distorting the reflection via your projections, you're only deceiving yourself.

      Are you still going to insist that I can't see you, Joanie?

      ;)

      Delete
    14. "Yes, you did. You said, and I quote, "Now I know FOR SURE that you're a demon", after I described the encounter I had with Jesus in a dream, in which he blew into my heart and said it was blocked, and that I had been in danger of dying, no doubt because I had been exposing the falsehoods in your book of lies."

      Please cite this. I don't think I ever said this to you and I don't recall this much details about your encounter with Jesus.

      In your refusal to admit that I am and have always been honest with you, you continue to stoop lower and lower. Your pride has blinded you and will destroy you if you don't stop. You think this is a game and I'm just not going to let you win and so you insist on not letting me win. Every now and then I tell myself "you overestimated his intelligence and his true potential" but then I shrug it off. I'm realizing it's because I don't WANT to believe that's true despite all the evidence to the contrary. I keep telling myself: it's not him, it's his fears, his "dog," maybe his upbringing...anything but what's in my face.

      You can't see me because if you did you would shed tears for hours, apologizing to me. I swear in the name of God and my mother's life that if you really believe everything you say, you have no clue who I am and what I'm trying to do for you.

      Delete
    15. I know you think everything is about you but I assure you I started posting on this blog without any intention of encountering you here. Once it started, however, old memories and your constant caricatures of my posts got me. Yes, it is lonely being someone in my position, with my history, and my sexual orientation and realizing the Truth. God-willing I will die doing what is right and spreading Truth as I understand it even if that means I have to go about it all alone. Still, I wish I had someone I can relate and who's intelligent & aware. I want everyone to be "saved" so just imagine how much I want it for him...

      You just can't believe that someone could do what I'm doing. God is my witness it is true. If it were up to me, I would erase his memory from my heart but it is not up to me. You are not hurting me but you are hurting yourself by knowingly betraying God. He will give me more than I deserve for my efforts - whether or not you come around or not.

      Be a better man.

      Delete
    16. Oh, ffs. I can't be a better man; I'm *NOT* a man. LOL

      You can't see me because if you did you would shed tears for hours, apologizing to me.

      Uuuh.. considering the fact that I might cry twice a year for a total of three minutes, that is highly unlikely. :P

      I swear in the name of God and my mother's life that if you really believe everything you say, you have no clue who I am and what I'm trying to do for you.

      That is the most rational thing you've ever said to me.

      Wtf do you think I've been trying to tell you?

      I know I remind you of your psycho. But I'm a *different* psycho, dumbass.

      Delete
    17. "And when they hear vanity they withdraw from it and say: Unto us our works and unto you your works. Peace be unto you! We desire not the ignorant."

      Quran 28:55


      Time to agree to disagree because I'm running out of good things to say for you. Maybe you'll turn it around some day - one can hope.

      Ciao.

      Delete
    18. What "good things" are you referencing, Joanie? Repeatedly mischaracterizing me to the point of insisting I'm someone I'm not? Calling me a devil, and lying about it in order to preserve your self-righteous image?

      We desire not the ignorant.

      ^And yet, you willfully cling to your ignorance of the truth, in spite of clear evidence that you're wrong.

      Anything to preserve your bloated ego, right, Jihadi? ;)

      Delete
  6. The vast majority of human beings live, to some extent at least, "double" lives. There is the real us - the inner reality - and the "mask" we weak for the outside world. Moral responsibility is ultimately placed ONLY on the inner you, the real you, your soul. That is something only God can do. Human beings can never know for 100% why another human being behaves a certain way. You are an entire package & bundle of stories which no one, not even yourself, can unpack and decode. The issue then becomes how do we truly hold people accountable when we don't or can't know for sure how much responsibility they ought to take for their actions. The answer is: we can't.

    This material world is not meant to be perfect and that much is obvious. If everything were fair and just, it would be akin to paradise. Society can mostly only judge by what it sees - that's why your actions, even if not driven by conscious ill-intention without any justification (i.e. brain disorder, trauma, abuse etc etc), are on you. Who else can take responsibility for what you did, knowingly or not, willingly or not? The system would indeed breakdown if people got off just because they are not entirely responsible for their behavior. However, God does not judge you based on just your actions - He judges you based on your intentions and as I've said many times, intentions are not merely your thoughts & rationale at the time you commit a certain act. I hope this example is helpful:

    Let's say we have an *ideal* human being, the "universal" in philosophical terms. This person has the best character, best morals, the best amalgamation of the inner & outer reality. If X represents moral excellence and Y represents deviance & sin, this person is X-100 & Y-0. Let Z represent your soul, "you," the agent operating this machine. Z knows that the target is Y-100, X-0.

    Now ideally, if our our parents were perfect, our environment (upbringing, friends, society, health etc etc) was perfect, we'd all be born and raised X-100, Y-0. We would have ZERO excuse for any, even the tiniest, departure from what is true & right. Incidentally it is in a context similar to this that the seemingly harsh religious laws apply.

    Now we know that such circumstances are either extremely rare or non-existent in this world. We all start off less than X-100 and greater than Y-0. Now let's say someone starts off at X-90, Y-10. This person literally has to put in a maximum of 10% effort to live as an ideal citizen. If, however, he started off as X-10, Y-90, he would have put in 90% of his energy, focus and drive on overcoming his base impulses and living as an ideal citizen. The former is too easy and the latter is almost impossible. God, insofar as I understand it, would judge based on the amount of effort you put in to overcome the scales set against you. Remember Z was always aware of what is right & wrong. He just had his work cut out for him big time in the latter example. Still, if he put in at least 10% of the effort (since he started off at X-10) to be an ideal citizen, he's "saved." That much he can and must do. Anything beyond shows how good of a person he is and anything below shows how depraved he is.

    I hope I didn't confuse anyone with that example.

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    1. I should add in my example above:

      X-100 also equals pure happiness, serenity and bliss. One does not aim for maximum good just because it sounds right.

      Delete
    2. Lo! Behold! The mathematical equation for bullshit, aka more unsubstantiated drivel that you're attempting to pass off as "fact". :P

      Delete
    3. Hey you said you're not in a mood for my BS today. This doesn't show it.

      Delete
    4. I stand corrected. Keep it coming.:D

      Delete
  7. I'm tall (6ft) and thin. I have jet black hair and my face is classically handsome, expressionless, yet pleasing. I have the most brilliant, gorgeous green eyes I have ever seen. I never scowl or anything and to me I look very approachable. Yet people cross over to the other side of the street when I walk towards them, this happens constantly. Sometimes I think they would rather be next to a yelling lunatic drunkard than come close to me. I have no idea why they act this way. Yesterday I was walking past these barriers at a nearby uni and as i was turning left this breathtakingly stunning woman walked into the middle of my path and stared at me hatefully with a mocking smile on her face. She looked at me like I was dirt. I instantly felt naked and didn't know what to do with my hands so I pretend to cough and put my hand to my mouth and fake coughed. I instantly looked around for an exit, a gate or something to escape. I rushed down the path in a sweat. I don't know why, but breathtakingly stunning women seem to see right through me. They look at me as if I'm complete dirt or a con artist. None of my tricks work with these types of women.

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    1. You’re projecting. With a single piercing glare, this woman reduced you to an awkward, fumbling mess, bringing to the surface all of the deep-rooted insecurities you try to keep hidden from yourself and the rest of the world, because you were intimidated by her looks, thus revealing your area of greatest vulnerability. Your tricks “don’t work” because your confidence evaporates when faced with a beautiful woman, on account of your self-doubt. You don’t notice it when less attractive women challenge you, because you view them with derision, demonstrating that the only value you accord to females is in terms of their looks. Yet you despise them, because you know that a beautiful, intelligent woman will see right through you, and reject you accordingly. This further erodes your confidence, which translates into contempt. You probably have rape fantasies in which you imagine yourself putting such women “in their place” to deal with the feelings of powerlessness such women evoke in you.

      And yet, your nervous sweating was doubtless delicious to her. She would not have stared at you in this way if she didn’t enjoy making you squirm. I speak from experience.

      You came face to face with another predator, quickly tucked your tail in between your legs, and ran away… A brilliant display of weakness before an object provoking your arousal and contempt, Adam the Small. :)

      Delete
  8. "To this person, I had not done anything truly objectionable, it was more my lack of guilt about having done them."

    I have a feeling you probably did do something truly objectionable and your lack of guilt about it just added a touch of horror.

    I think sociopathy/psychopathy/aspd is a special case in terms of "disorder" because it involves oftentimes extreme deceit and possibly great harm to individual/s and society. It's dangerous and untrustworthy. Read the books.

    This seems to be a common theme here. That 2 people can commit the "same crime" and because one feels guilt he is okay and can be rehabbed and is not so "evil" and the other is the devil. I think this is sort of a half truth. Similar to the quote above. Its not really about guilt but imo more about the why of behavior. Which I think has more to do with "conscience" than guilt. The conscience/guilt mechanism maybe - but even before guilt is felt, what is there before? I think that is what scares people. Why did they do it. These other things (lack of guilt) are part of the uproar, but it comes down to the why which involve more than just the ability to feel guilt.

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  9. Anyone else get a douche chill when Adam writes?

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    1. I'm not a bad person. It's just i know how cruel humans are. I hate degeneracy and ignorance and it's all i see in today's world. Are there any noble men left? In school if there was an awkward kid who walked around alone, I was the first one to go over and introduce him into a game me and my class mates were playing. I don't see that kind of common sense courtesy anywhere. All I see is a mass of celebrity worship, stimulation addicts and idiocy. I feel like I'm the only human left with a soul. I literally hate everything and nothing makes me laugh and so I stick to myself.

      Delete
    2. The reason why guilt is important and GOOD is precisely because it is a deterrent. Firstly it prevents you from ever doing anything majorly wrong because you don't want to experience guilt. If you do end up doing the deed, guilt will help you correct it insofar as it can corrected (at the very least, you can apologize / repent). Furthermore, it will deter you from doing the deed again and if not, it will at least put a limit on how often you do. At the very least, it will remind you that whatever it is you do is not right.

      Without guilt you don't see anything wrong with what you do and THAT is the ultimate sin. That's when the behavior steadily becomes normal - first to you and then to others as you begin to (deceptively) justify it. Imagine the impact on society when this phenomenon becomes commonplace, over generations.

      Delete
    3. Adam. If you must be soft. At least be a pillow. For "poor" peoples heads.

      Delete
    4. Adam or you're a vulnerable narcissist. Or you're dissapointed and depressed and a bit paranoid. And anyway some people look at everyone that way, who cares. This isn't paradise, it's life. Life has it's own rules and their not going to change because you don;t like them. People are mostly mean and selfish, or stupid. It's nature.

      Delete
    5. I hate degeneracy and ignorance and it's all i see in today's world. Are there any noble men left?

      -Be the change you wish to see in the world. -Ghandi.

      You could be heroic, if you can extricate yourself from the clutches of your overbearing and defectively overcompensating ego.

      Delete
  10. Guilt has its place. I believe sociopaths experience guilt. Its part of the cycle. Its why they must make the other party bad. They are willing to rewrite reality to avoid guilt

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    1. The why is the most troublesome part to me. Why be driven to hurt others? To hurt yourself?

      Delete
    2. @ Anon 3.23 pm:

      This is an excellent example of why it's often pointless to dialogue with people who comment here.

      "Guilt has its place."
      Correct.

      "I believe sociopaths experience guilt."
      Incorrect. (ie. diagnostically: it's a 'fact' they do not)

      "Its part of the cycle."

      Incorrect; and assumption that 'everyone' will know what on earth he/she is referring to by 'the cycle'.

      "Its why they must make the other party bad."

      Incorrect assumption about others' motives, (probably due to lack of imagination that someone can be motivated by something different than oneself. I'm guessing).

      "They are willing to rewrite reality to avoid guilt"

      Incorrect. That's what the commentator would probably have to do, and is assuming everyone else is therefore the same.

      On a blog about people who think differently. Hmm.

      Probably, not having much else to do in their life at present, the poster was indulging in the boringly common exercise of pedantically insinuating "you're all evil and we are superior to you" in what he/she possibly imagines is a more 'subtle' manner than that Jonaid.

      Now, that's taken a few minutes out of a perfectly good day to respond to; but for what point? Is the commenting individual going to get some 'helpful insight'? No. Why not?

      Because invariably, using their kind of 'non'-logic coupled with such fixed assumptions (in all the comments they've posted as far as one can tell), is just their delivery mechanism for their motive: "They must make the other party feel bad"

      and @ North:

      It's not that people "run away at the first sign of being challenged" - another unbelievably laughable and self-important 'logic classic' I read in a previous posting's comments list, attempting to masquerade as yet another boring 'sly' dig in the "you're all evil and we despise you" vein - so it would be great if:

      "I wish you would hear me on this point."

      XK

      Delete
    3. When you realize that psychopaths are driven by ego, their false pride and conceit, then you realize that having an honest dialogue with one is literally impossible. Only after they repent can you take them seriously again. In the meantime, all you'll get is one attempt to deceive after another. Getting a "one up" on you makes their day - they have no REAL goals except to be low lives but pretend like they're kings.

      Delete
    4. "I believe sociopaths experience guilt."
      Incorrect. (ie. diagnostically: it's a 'fact' they do not)

      Diagnostically nothing is a fact. It is just that, a diagnosis and even psychology has now shown that psychopaths of the worst kind are fully capable of empathy and guilt IF they "turn on" the "switch." It hurts and since they are too proud to acknowledge their actual crimes and repent, they keep the button off and keep doing the pit of doom, dragging others along with them.

      Delete
    5. *keep going down the pit of doom*

      Delete
    6. XK what is the point you wish to be heard? I don't know what your referring to.

      Delete
    7. And I'm the commentator and no I don't have to do that.

      Delete
    8. @ Anon 5.49pm & 5.59pm:

      "XK what is the point you wish to be heard? I don't know what you're referring to."

      The point: sooner or later you [NT's] will all just be 'talking amongst yourselves', (on a website of someone diagnosed as having psychopathic traits), ironically - because others with those traits will all be bored rigid. Clear enough?

      "And I'm the commentator and no I don't have to do that."
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

      No idea what 'that' you're talking about.

      XK

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    9. XK the "that" is I don't have to rewrite reality to avoid guilt. Its what I have observed sociopaths do. Personally. Its part of the idealize/discard. Its the middle part that I can't recall the name of now. that's the cycle I was referring to. And I stand by what I said. Thanks for your input

      Delete
    10. @ Anon 7.40pm:

      " Its what I have observed sociopaths do. Personally."

      You've [probably] watched someone's behaviour, heard what they've said, maybe asked them a few questions even [or just surmised] - but you haven't gone into their mind and actually ascertained what their reality was. So your conclusions are naturally made within your own [affective empathy] context.

      If a Martian came to Earth, did stuff - would it be really sensible to unquestioningly use all your [barely understood] cognitive biases to make assumptions about what the Martian was doing?

      "Its part of the idealize/ discard."

      That's a Borderline PD trait. Perhaps you are confusing two 'styles' of interpersonal relationships.

      XK

      Delete
    11. "'s not that people "run away at the first sign of being challenged" - another unbelievably laughable and self-important 'logic classic' I read in a previous posting's comments list, attempting to masquerade as yet another boring 'sly' dig in the "you're all evil and we despise you" vein - so it would be great if:"

      XK - I have been here for a while and you seem to have picked out elements of my posts to suit a rhetorical purpose. If I'm wrong on this point - I leave space for that - perhaps you could call out the real issue.

      In the case you seriously believe that's what I do here, the post above will interest you. As to the matter of fact, I have challenged UKan twice and both times he's gone to water. Hence my lack of respect for UKan.

      Then there's the possibility of trolling or your thinking I'm a pollutant here. In these cases, I can only shrug my shoulders and continue on my way. I offered once to start again on a productive foot; the offer stands.

      Delete
    12. XK I am the anon that was conversing with you above. I originally was responding to aspies post regarding guilt and the "why " which is the underlying question of both socio and nons. Recently within my personal circle I experienced extreme unprovoked violence. The person changed their story many times but the underlying response is they don't know why they did what they did. I am only attempting to get at the heart of that. I believe what is so frustrating for myself and also North-sorry north if I'm off base-is the assumption that it's all about proving socio are "bad." that is not my motive.

      Delete
    13. @ Anon at 6.22am

      "Recently within my personal circle I experienced extreme unprovoked violence."

      Physical or emotional? [or both?]

      "The person changed their story many times"

      As many times as you asked them questions? If that is the case, it probably explains the following:

      "but the underlying response is they don't know why they did what they did."

      Bear in mind, I'm making assumptions.

      The person you questioned may indeed have had no idea why they acted/responded as they did.

      1] The story changed in an effort to provide you with answers that you could understand or accept, by someone who hadn't ever given it much thought prior, and who wasn't maybe aware that their response might be puzzling. Not because they were trying out different lies, as someone 'normal' may assume.

      2] You say 'unprovoked'; but in all likelihood you and they are probably unaware as to what is provoking or not, to each other. So maybe that's an unknown, to both of you. It could just have been an impulsive exploration of 'how much abuse can this person tolerate'. Nothing personal. Again, a 'normal' person would always assume another human has value over and above everything else. Mistake.

      3] IF the person you're puzzled about is psychopathic - which you haven't stated you know for a fact [because they've shown you their report from a psychological evaluation stretching over a series of tests and a semi-structured interview, at the very least]; THEN you can assume that the person has an 'interesting' relationship with fear - as in 'hasn't got any, doesn't factor that in at all when they respond towards people who do feel it; and 'feels' it as actually something mildly interesting, exciting and to be explored further - so no big deal, to themselves or anyone else. Because they are not self-aware, so don't have a clue their responses are 'off'.

      I could go on. But basically, you're not going to get any sensible analytical answers from the attacker unless they know themselves pretty well, [and it sort of sounds like they don't.]

      4] They may have no idea why they exploded as they did; it's not a particularly psychopathic trait frankly [instrumental aggression *is*], more of a Borderline style of thing, or something called Explosive Aggression whatever [can't remember], and to do with being badly abused during childhood, brain damage etc. Research papers aplenty are out there online, to delve further.

      So, while I agree that 'not knowing' something is a nuisance; you were probably wasting your time with the questions, until such time as the attacker becomes more self-aware [if ever].

      "what is so frustrating for myself and also North"

      Then, in response: [and you haven't done any of the following BTW, you yourself finally asked a reasonably sensible question which I probably haven't answered to anyone's satisfaction] what *is* so frustrating, is coming onto a blog like this, and having to scroll past screeds and screeds of (a) navel-gazing womens' wallowing in their sense of emotional entitlement,(b) song lyrics for goodness sake, and (c) religious ranting.

      Now that's frustrating, and boring.

      A reader may regard that last sentence as 'rude' and unkind. It's not. Just an observation, nothing personal; probably regarded as callous, or hurtful; who knows, who cares. No guilt [or anything but mild interest] is being felt.

      See the difference in [ie. contrasted with a 'normal] mode of response?

      That's the best I can do to answer your query. Without viewing the extreme unprovoked violence, or investigating the context, one really can't do much more.

      XK

      Delete
    14. Genuine query: why don't you create the content you wish to see?

      "navel-gazing womens' wallowing in their sense of emotional entitlement"
      Trolling again. You don't engage in the intellectual content or respond when I treat your posts with respect and engage with them on their merits.

      Talk about entitlement. Holy fuck. I get frustrated too as I've openly admitted but I continue with the avenues I want to explore here. As I've said, I'll continue to do that until I choose other avenues for my journeys.

      As A told me: ME doesn't moderate comments and expects people to live and die here on their own. I'm not going to constrain myself because you don't like me. I like your posts... *shrugs*

      Delete
    15. @ North at 5.11pm

      "As A told me: ME doesn't moderate comments"

      I suspect she does. I sent you a response just now, it has not appeared. Another one to the Anon, did. I suspect mine was too pointed [about the blog content].

      Define your understanding of the term 'trolling' so I can respond accurately.

      XK

      Delete
    16. Responses do go missing sometimes. Happened to a bunch of us, especially when the number of comments is high and the comments are long. Breaking them up helps. Or maybe she does it for fun, who knows.

      Trolling: trying to provoke a response.

      Delete
    17. @ North at 6.21pm:

      I was not trying to provoke a response from you by my comments regarding the nature of content here, to Anon.

      "Genuine query: why don't you create the content you wish to see?"

      Two reasons; some people are more the 'observe and comment if there's some relevant info one can offer validly' type of person, otherwise they don't bother; and secondly, one is entitled to "engage in the intellectual content and respond" IF the subject matter is of interest.

      It is true that relationship 'autopsies' and religious ranting are not what I want to spend time reading, let alone responding to.

      If that sounds arrogant, OK; I know my levels of 'egocentricity' are through the roof, clinically, so such is life. LOL

      It would have been interesting if the basic premise of M E's 'is it the disorder or is it one's core personality' had been explored and discussed, by some with that personality style.
      'A' did start it, actually. Probably someone should have carried it on.

      I happened to answer someone else; so shoot me. [Well, you could try LOL.] But some people's time is constrained, spending too much of it commenting here isn't very productive.

      XK

      Delete
    18. Hi XK,

      Thanks for your answer.

      You've clearly stated a preference here in a digestible form. There's nothing arrogant about that; it's something I can respect.

      Personally, I understand from the past week or so here that I want to change some of my patterns of engagement. Confrontation isn't working out so well for me; seeking to understand is usually far more productive. And when I'm tired or excited, I don't put the effort in to shape my communications effectively. These are datapoints I can use to design alternative approaches.

      Delete
  11. Replies
    1. aspie-

      Thanks for the music.:)

      ~Vegas

      Delete
  12. I saw **-* just now. He does look perfectly harmless, always appears to be in a hurry or in not quite in the right place. Check shirt, open neck, off to work.

    I like to disrupt things sometimes but have no desire to disturb him, his strange self-containedness. I feel I've done that.

    It's so strange, all the energy and thought catalysed by soft-looking a creature as he. The wonders of life are in these small recesses, unexplored corners.

    And I know that innocence is his defence. He seems to be all of 5 years old, a lost little boy.

    This is an interesting cycle and I might write more later. My colleague will be here in a moment.

    ***

    Ok, so a different colleague showed up. 2 minutes later, so does **-*. He said "hello, how are you?"

    Colleague walked away, **-* stayed a moment, looked back at me and smiled. I deliberately checked his LinkedIn profile last week.

    They're still in the coffee shop but that's enough for now. Colleague phoned.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Fucker was sitting behind me! Jesus, I'm stupid. I assumed he'd have forgotten about me straight away.

      Delete
    2. North-

      Were you scared???

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    3. Hey Vegas,

      I wasn't scared. Actually, I went back to use my friend's phone to arrange for my colleague to pick up (network troubles here.) **-* asked why he hadn't seen me outside. It was an odd question, I didn't really know how to answer it, so said "I don't know, not special enough." I said this because "special" was in my head from a convo yesterday. He seemed to nod and was a bit more closed off. But we were looking at each other with knowing and inviting eyes so I can't see how I can get the book thing to work with him, which was my aim.

      I'll probably write a bit more about how this little scenario came about - completely by chance, but I did choose that coffee shop deliberately, which he certainly knew.

      Delete
    4. http://spinningnorth.blogspot.com.au/2016/03/time-warp.html?m=1

      That's kinda why. Plus I happened to be in that town centre this morning.

      Delete
  13. North, he is a sucker for other people's emotions. Including yours. It does not mean he thinks of you all the time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Okies. Thanks.

      The only other coincidence is that he happened to be meeting with that particular colleague. **-* knows this guy knows the whole story.

      I'm going with the flow here. As long as I do what I feel life is sweet.

      Delete
    2. Ok. Strange. What is going on in **.* mind then? Do you think he turned into an empath?
      Does he have the emotional memory to "care" about you?

      Delete
    3. He's very patient, that's his style. I suppose he comes back to people when he feels like it. As I mentioned previously, he had a former girlfriend meet him on the beach in a bikini while on an overseas holiday with his family. Or so he said.

      I have no idea what's in his mind, though. All I know is it's the first time he has spoken a sentence to me since August 2013 although we have had many almost wordless interactions since then. It's the first time I've seen him since the period of our mutual undertakings to the court expired.

      Hhhmmm, and he has quite a bit of info on where I'm up to based on the Viber messages I sent him in November. I had seen him that morning completely unexpectedly while waiting in that same spot for the same colleague he met today and he very determinedly walked straight past me. But there is an endless trail of these little things that there's no point analysing.

      I had it in my mind, because I was excited, that it might be a good opportunity this morning to put myself in front of him so he knows I want to talk to him (about my book; I also decided early this morning that I want to ask him about that regardless of how unlikely it is he'll be helpful. I'm meeting with my cousin tomorrow who will be helpful :D.) I didn't plan on speaking to him.

      I can't imagine he'd ever reveal his mind to me. Before anything started, I was sitting next to him at work. He loves his spreadsheets and I asked him to show me his code. I wanted to see how his mind worked. He said a number of times " if I showed you that, I'd have to kill you." I asked him how. He thought about it: "I'd choke you and throw you under a bus". Sure, scrawny guy. No hope. But yeah, my point is that I know I'm dreaming ;)

      Who knows what's going on? I don't think I really need to know.

      Thanks for asking me these questions. It's good prompting for me to think.

      Delete
    4. What's going on is what has always been going on. He wants to use you/he's bored/he doesn't care about you. And it's nothing you should look up to or be curious about. He wants you to be curious. It's the come closer so I can slap you tecknique. You can never win this game. You will always lose. If you value yourself don't even think about him ever. He knows that even one look of his gives you false hope. And you have fallen in the trap. And don't show him anything that's yours, you should know well that it's like giving a little kid a precious book. It's going to ruin it. The difference is he'll do it on purpose. And remember you might have improved, and you might be on the road to getting over it, but it only takes some minutes to cut even the tallest tree.

      Delete
    5. This might be handy.
      https://psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com/2010/12/22/the-psychopaths-relationship-cycle-idealize-devalue-and-discard/

      Delete
    6. Thanks :)

      Okies, I'm going to write about my own process because it's time for a little synthesis.

      This is about my commerce with my own heart and not about my commerce with **-*.

      Understanding his motivations is a small factor now; I've been through that full process more than 18 months ago. I'm writing a book; balancing my experience with his would create something very powerful indeed. That's why I was there, to test whether or not I could feasibly approach him regarding that. Keep in mind he has been literally run away from me every time we've seen each other for the past 6 months.

      I'm not trapped in his narrative, I'm creating my own. Intellectually and emotionally. This little experience gives me information and an energy spike to help me create the direction - physically - in my mind that I want. The reality is my story extends from the time my father brought me home from hospital; **-* arrived at the moment I was seeking with all my might for ignition to blow up my whole life. He was at ground zero. That's all. The explosion was mine, the direction I take now is mine.

      God, for the first time in my life I trust my own being and I am completely flourishing. I will allow my heart and mind to explore all the possibilities before me. That's the purpose of imaginative thinking, to play out all the avenues and look for the risks. It's part of our social nature to seek counsel to help inform our imaginative thinking and come up with a course of action. That's what I'm doing here.

      I absolutely know it's a risky proposition letting him anywhere near my precious book. And I have a huge appetite for risk. Socioempath encouraged me to ensure I keep hold of that very strongly - that it's my book.

      There are so many strands of growth and adaptation going on here - so many they all rush to my brain and find a bottleneck at the physical speed of my fingers. I don't expect anyone to understand my path and this has been the case throughout my journey; people telling me I'm mad and unwise. But even my totally risk averse and petrified mother has learnt to trust me in this.

      Datapoints. It's all about datapoints and commerce with self. Life by experiment.

      He who chooses his own path needs no map

      Delete
  14. M.E.-regarding your tweet: "What can I do? With him it's impossible, without him also impossible."...

    This song's for you!!!

    U2

    "With Or Without You"

    See the stone set in your eyes
    See the thorn twist in your side
    I wait for you
    Sleight of hand and twist of fate
    On a bed of nails she makes me wait
    And I wait, without you

    With or without you
    With or without you

    Through the storm we reach the shore
    You give it all but I want more
    And I'm waiting for you

    With or without you
    With or without you
    I can't live
    With or without you

    And you give yourself away
    And you give yourself away
    And you give
    And you give
    And you give yourself away

    My hands are tied
    My body bruised, she's got me with
    Nothing to win and
    Nothing left to lose

    And you give yourself away
    And you give yourself away
    And you give
    And you give
    And you give yourself away

    With or without you
    With or without you
    I can't live
    With or without you
    Oh

    With or without you
    With or without you
    I can't live
    With or without you

    With or without you

    ~Vegas

    ReplyDelete
  15. I never forget an insult. I always store them away in my mind for when my enemies are old or feeble and I encounter them when they are at their most needy, then is revenge most rewarding. I never start fights with people or draw first blood, but people think because of my benign calm nature they can mess with me. Like a crocodile I stay out of sight and wait for the precise moment to hit my enemies hard. I never attack a good man, though. I only purge the unclean.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Have you read the Art of War? I think you'd like it.

      Delete
    2. Nope. I don't have the capacity to tolerate boredom to read books. I'm on my feet 24/7 or bouncing off the walls. In school I couldn't sit still. I'm an extreme extrovert, getting out there and talking to idiots and seeing what makes them thick. Life is the best teacher.

      Delete
    3. I do have the audio book of the Art of War, though. I listen to it from time to time on my morning jogs along with Anthony Robbins, who in my view is brilliant.

      Delete
  16. I'm in my 20's and still a virgin. If females flirt with me or come on to me I feel nausea and try to leave. I don't get turned on like most men would. My body is like an ancient heritage site to me or a wonder of the world. No cigarettes or alcohol goes into my beloved body and certainly no woman will put their sluttish hands on my outstanding body. I sometimes look at my father and feel sick because I realize he has put his penis inside a woman and my mother has probably done oral sex. When I think of those things it disturbs me and they become not my parents, but strangers or common people. It makes me lose all respect for them. How can people do such degenerate things with their partners then have the nerve to go outside?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olP2KvITKSQ

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Adam maybe you're just an asexual and that's fine, but don't you think you should not critisize the people who like sex? Maybe that way your day would be less disgusting.

      Delete
    2. "certainly no woman will put their sluttish hands on my outstanding body"

      ^Your superiority complex is a defense mechanism to counter and conceal your chronic feelings of inadequacy, inferiority, and failure.

      "She wants it Now
      And she will not wait
      But she's too rough
      And I'm too delicate"


      Haha! "Delicate", indeed.

      Fragile as glass.

      Delete
    3. Indeed, glass is a widely sought-after commodity, recyclable and comes back anew and fresh. I can't say any of them qualities are true about marshmallows which is what you're made of.

      Delete
    4. When i was 18 I thought about creating a cult, but then I asked myself do I really want the respect and adoration of masses of complete human garbage? It became clear to me that I had a lot more self respect than Jesus or Muhammad had, so I decided not to.

      Delete
    5. A I love the smiths lyrics ;-)and Adam you strike me as quite the dandy.

      Delete
    6. Anon if I strike you as anything, then you have been duped. It's just another persona of mine. I'll probably try on the 'tough guy' tomorrow. It fits me very well and is cashmere.

      Delete
    7. A 20 year old virgin who runs away from pretty girls might have trouble convincing anyone he's a tough guy. Is why you're such a try-hard, black sheep? xD

      Delete
    8. Glass shatters easily. It is not strong, and tolerates stress poorly. As such, easily broken, weak men living in glass houses can only safely throw... marshmallows. :D



      Delete
  17. I had a really interesting conversation with my mental health therapist today. In her opinion, she thinks part of my personality disorder is a voluntary choice, an "attitude problem". Like you say, the "attitude" is really a significant part of what the disorder is.

    She does want to read what you've wrote though, M.E.. I might just send her the link to your blog. I may also email you asking if I could possibly get a free copy of your book I could let my therapist borrow from me. It's been at least four years since I first read your book, I wouldn't mind actually rereading it. A pleasure to read.

    ESTP Sociopath

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @ ESTP at 4.33pm:

      "I might just send her the link to your blog."

      Does the region where you live have liberal 'de-criminalisation' drug laws? If not, writing online about smoking weed might not have been such a great strategic idea, if you then put a face to a login.....

      "she thinks part of my personality disorder is a voluntary choice, an "attitude problem".

      Perhaps she was just suggesting you are maybe trying to 'live a label', rather than allowing yourself to be a 'unique individual' who happens to have TLE with its few attendant personality quirks.

      Whatever: take CARE.

      XK

      Delete
  18. Normal ppl feel disgusted/afraid around someone that does not have a conscience. they cannot help this - they have evolved to be this way. the way they interpret their response is to say that you are immoral/evil.

    eg a normal person sees a bug and feels afraid and disgusted. they imagine the bug is horrible. that is their. mind - the bug, from its side of things, is just doing what bugs do. it does not feel disgusted or evil.

    this is what is so funny about being a psychopath. dr. fallon didnot feel evil, uncaring, etc. he was surprised ppl related to him he way they did.

    M.e. - practically speaking, if you just practice dropping your preconceived ideas and doing the next prosocial thing 100% -a psychopathic practice if there was one - withing a few weeks ppl will think you are a saint and none of this will matter anymore. this post is like asking about the family of the guy that shot you with the arrow, what kind of bow he used, etc.

    ReplyDelete
  19. So earlier I felt like doing a bit of research on my Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (I covered before how 70% sufferers of TLE when their personality is assessed by an appropriate mental health professional they check out as psychopathic), and I wanted to know about something in particular: all of my Auras (epilepsy symptom that I've mentioned before, essentially fleeting hallucinations) take on a distinctly supernatural/paranormal nature; phantom blood pouring from my nose, losing sensation in my limbs as if they're ghostly, etc.. One way my Auras can be experienced as is premonitions, always telling of misfortune that may occur in the future. I get a flash of imagery like a VSH tape being fast-forwarded. One time one of my premonitions came true(!), so I've always wondered if it could be possible my other premonitions might be right, or if I took the right actions to prevent the tragedies that my premonitions tell me were going to happen.

    Apparently those with TLE do indeed experience more paranormal activity then most, and quite a few TLE people also have Aura induced premonitions that come true(!).

    ESTP Sociopath

    ReplyDelete
  20. I'm talking to my aunt in my dungeon
    I'm asking her to change her degenerate ways
    No message could have been any clearer
    If you wanna make the world a better place take a look at yourself and give me your loose change

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Is that a Michael Jackson song?

      Delete
    2. "(I covered before how 70% sufferers of TLE when their personality is assessed by an appropriate mental health professional they check out as psychopathic)"

      Could you cite your source for this please? Seriously It's interesting to hear this.

      Delete
  21. I love this entry. I am in constant questioning of what is me versus what is the disorder. But I concern myself more with this question because
    1. I have a toddler who is exhibiting signs that she inherited my psychopathy (sorry daughter)
    2. I understand that when I talk about my disorder that people will automatically see everything I do as the disorder. In essence, by sharing that I'm a psychopath I'm taking away me as a person. I no longer am someone in people's eyes, I am only the disorder.

    ReplyDelete
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