Saturday, March 19, 2016

Good and bad

A reader shares a different perspective on good and bad, which I am not sure I understood completely, but it seemed to have a ring of truth to it:

I stumbled upon this insightful article that categorizes different types of morality while challenging popular notions of what is good and evil.  I think this is a good read for anyone struggling with the concept of morality; sociopaths and empaths alike.

However, there are passages that really stuck out to me in terms of identifying with sociopaths. When talking about "highly intelligent" people who fail to feel compassion or sympathy for their "victims":

So, why do people suffer, and why do people feel pain at the hands of these people if there is no "evil" in the world? 
The answer?  Because these "evil" people lack sensitivity of soul.  They lack wisdom.
Intelligence and knowledge are tools that help us process and play with the ideas of the fragmented reality that our minds create.  Wisdom on the other hand is the sensor that experiences a direct connection to it, it is the sentient perceiver of our existence, the pathway straight to the heart. 
These misguided and unwise people are incapable of cultivating peace and harmony in their lives, so instead they act on whatever provides a fleeting sense of fulfillment: money, power, gratification.  To them these feelings are "good"; they provide security and a false sense of fulfillment, and so they are willing to do anything to anyone to continue feeling these things.

If this were true, is it possible for a naturally "unwise" person to gain the wisdom needed to halt the persistent need for these "fleeting feelings"? Is it possible for them to achieve true self-fulfillment? 

This basically sums it up:

"Good" could be said to be conscious, loving and wise behavior while "Evil" could be considered egotistical, fearful and unconscious behavior.  These words work as metaphors for personal growth, as measurements for the quality of life you're attracting.  For example, anything which helps you 'awaken' to this wisdom, to experience yourself, to become more authentic and experience something higher than yourself is "good", while anything that hinders this is "evil". 
The wiser people will realize that "evil" behavior will attract many problems into their lives - such things as enemies, low self-esteem, paranoia, addictions, attachments, persistent dissatisfaction and suffering, world-weariness and cynicism to name a few. 
Essentially, those people who do "good" in life aren't perfectly saintly beings, but are people who realize, if only intuitively, that doing good benefits them, that being compassionate results in less suffering for themselves and produces a deeper sense of fulfillment and connection to others.
I'm very interested to hear what you have to say about this particular viewpoint, and what you believe to be true or false. Thanks 

34 comments:

  1. More people need to be on http://sociopath-community.com/

    !!! it used to be connected to this blog but was disconnected over a year ago. We need fresh blood and lots of interesting things have happened recently (relates to kiwifar.ms drama: https://archive.is/M2tXa) that will go down in the forum's history! Be sure to check out http://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/ too, as some of its regulars are regulars on SC too!

    Goddamn ME refused to reconnect the blog to the forum so we SC goers will just have to spam advertisements for the forum in the comments section. ;)

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  2. "The answer? Because these "evil" people lack sensitivity of soul. They lack wisdom.
    Intelligence and knowledge are tools that help us process and play with the ideas of the fragmented reality that our minds create. Wisdom on the other hand is the sensor that experiences a direct connection to it, it is the sentient perceiver of our existence, the pathway straight to the heart."

    This fits my experience. Wisdom perceives beneath appearances to the all-encompassing reality of interconnectedness. No man is an island. There is no exclusive 'me' only the inclusive 'we.' I do not exist in a void, separate from the actions of others; I exist within the dynamic, ever-changing interplay all living beings.

    "These misguided and unwise people are incapable of cultivating peace and harmony in their lives, so instead they act on whatever provides a fleeting sense of fulfillment: money, power, gratification. To them these feelings are "good"; they provide security and a false sense of fulfillment, and so they are willing to do anything to anyone to continue feeling these things."

    This rings true. Psychologically wounded/neurologically deficit humans lack the perceptual heart wisdom to feel that interconnectedness, and so, they attempt to fill the lonely void with shiny stuff, power, etc. Given the brain's plasticity and the heart's ability to grow, however, I believe that most unwise people, including many unwise empaths, can change. I believe most creatures, including animal predators, can be deeply heart-touched and that all humans yearn to love and be loved, to playfully and joyfully engage with others. Why? Because the beauty of connecting with others on a profound level is awe-inspiring. It's a rising tide within the heart and spirit that lifts all beings.

    A question I always ask myself before taking any action is, Do I want to expend my energy to destroy and divide or to create and unite? Do I want to emulate vindictive, judgmental Yahweh/Muhammad or merciful-loving Jesus/Buddha? What kind of world do I want to live in?

    I prefer to choose life's capacity for harmony and love, creativity and tolerance for diversity. Because that's the kind of world I want to live in and because that's what makes me happy.

    Where does DIS-connection usually lead?

    To pursue the destruction of tolerance and diversity, to rail against the Other and inculcate violence, is what Trump is doing. If he gets elected, America will very likely spark World War III. Sometime between 2017-2020.

    Mr. Hyde

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    Replies
    1. ""These misguided and unwise people are incapable of cultivating peace and harmony in their lives, so instead they act on whatever provides a fleeting sense of fulfillment: money, power, gratification. To them these feelings are "good"; they provide security and a false sense of fulfillment, and so they are willing to do anything to anyone to continue feeling these things."

      This rings true. Psychologically wounded/neurologically deficit humans lack the perceptual heart wisdom to feel that interconnectedness, and so, they attempt to fill the lonely void with shiny stuff, power, etc. Given the brain's plasticity and the heart's ability to grow, however, I believe that most unwise people, including many unwise empaths, can change. I believe most creatures, including animal predators, can be deeply heart-touched and that all humans yearn to love and be loved, to playfully and joyfully engage with others. Why? Because the beauty of connecting with others on a profound level is awe-inspiring. It's a rising tide within the heart and spirit that lifts all beings. "

      Mr Hyde, you have a most beautiful voice.

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    2. Thank you, North. You have a beautiful voice, too. You are a very talented writer and I do hope you write your book.

      Mr. Hyde

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    3. Thanks Mr Hyde.

      The book is coming together. My cousin is a celebrated poet - I'm meeting with her this week to get some tips :)

      I need more hours in the day; but these days I am in less of a hurry.

      Delete
  3. "So, why do people suffer, and why do people feel pain at the hands of these people if there is no "evil" in the world?
    The answer? Because these "evil" people lack sensitivity of soul. They lack wisdom.
    Intelligence and knowledge are tools that help us process and play with the ideas of the fragmented reality that our minds create. Wisdom on the other hand is the sensor that experiences a direct connection to it, it is the sentient perceiver of our existence, the pathway straight to the heart."

    I agree 100% that evil (without quotation) people lack wisdom. However, they're not evil because they're missing something (that would not be evil, that would be incompleteness), indeed they lack wisdom precisely because they CHOSE to go down an evil path (without necessarily seeing where the road ends when they boarded). Evil by definition is something ill-intended - not a mere lack of good.

    "These misguided and unwise people are incapable of cultivating peace and harmony in their lives, so instead they act on whatever provides a fleeting sense of fulfillment: money, power, gratification. To them these feelings are "good"; they provide security and a false sense of fulfillment, and so they are willing to do anything to anyone to continue feeling these things."

    This is certainly true of some so called "sociopaths" (and I include M.E. from my reading of you here) but I insist on NOT calling these people "evil." It is NOT evil if you behave erratically because you are incapable of behaving any better. If you, M.E., are posting all these queries genuinely, you are "lost" and seeking the "wisdom" so you can be a better, GOOD, person. How could someone seeking good be evil, even if they are currently behaving in seemingly "evil" behavior? That's just ignorance for lack of a better term.

    "If this were true, is it possible for a naturally "unwise" person to gain the wisdom needed to halt the persistent need for these "fleeting feelings"? Is it possible for them to achieve true self-fulfillment?"

    If the assumption is that if only you got your hands on the missing piece, you'd happily turn your life around, than that is a sign of a GOOD soul, NOT evil. If a truly evil person got their hands on the same wisdom, they'd become even more effective in their evil actions. God prevents the evil from ever becoming "wise." It is logical and makes sense if you think about it: how can you be evil and KNOW that ultimately you will lose and suffer horribly for it? It is one of the punishments that the evil are doomed to remain ignorant of their ultimate fate until the time comes, thus incapable of ever being truly wise.

    As I said in one recent comment, "awakened" people have what is called "empathy switch." The ability to control your emotions is not just a socioathic / psychopathic trait. It is a trait of the best and the worst of peoples. The worst are called psychopaths (if they're "outed") and the best are called saints or moral exemplars (if they're "confirmed"). Sometimes people are mislabeled because we either misjudge the true motives or we lie about them - that doesn't change the truth that God alone knows.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ""Good" could be said to be conscious, loving and wise behavior while "Evil" could be considered egotistical, fearful and unconscious behavior. These words work as metaphors for personal growth, as measurements for the quality of life you're attracting. For example, anything which helps you 'awaken' to this wisdom, to experience yourself, to become more authentic and experience something higher than yourself is "good", while anything that hinders this is "evil"."

      Once again I think the words are being misused here. Good and evil are 100% real, not metaphors. We can, however, misapply them - knowingly or accidentally. If it is "unconscious" how can it be evil? It's a direct contradiction of the meaning of evil. Whoever wrote this is either confused to aiming to confuse others by using a word that doesn't belong there. I do agree with the last sentence here if I can rephrase it as "anyone that knowingly hinders you from the good, or from your seeking the truth" is indeed evil.

      "The wiser people will realize that "evil" behavior will attract many problems into their lives - such things as enemies, low self-esteem, paranoia, addictions, attachments, persistent dissatisfaction and suffering, world-weariness and cynicism to name a few."

      This is tricky - it's partly true but potentially misleading. BOTH good and evil can bring you pain, suffering, enemies, etc etc in life. The difference is that evil brings you what you deserve and are rightfully owed whereas good brings you problems deliberately manufactured by the evil to prevent you from succeeding as a "good" person. The default is to be good, truthful - the deviance is evil. Once you've deviated, you'll do whatever you can to bring others down as well. That does not mean that we have two equal, opposing views and we should just tolerate both.

      "Essentially, those people who do "good" in life aren't perfectly saintly beings, but are people who realize, if only intuitively, that doing good benefits them, that being compassionate results in less suffering for themselves and produces a deeper sense of fulfillment and connection to others."

      Theoretically this is 100% true but in the real world we all know that it doesn't always work like that. Quite often you lose by being nice and fair. "Nice guys finish last" is true BUT incomplete. When you add the full Truth (God) into the equation, the right phrase is "Nice guys finish last but they ultimately win and get the best."

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    2. I said:

      "I do agree with the last sentence here if I can rephrase it as "anyone that knowingly hinders you from the good, or from your seeking the truth" is indeed evil."

      I should correct myself here: they are in a state of evil when they are doing that. That does not necessarily mean they are in a fixed and unalterable condition of being evil. Again, "potentially good" ("lost" or "ignorant") people can commit evil ACTS but correction / repentance is available to all at all times while alive.

      Delete
  4. "And say: Truth hath come and falsehood hath vanished away. Lo! falsehood is ever bound to vanish."

    Qur'an 17:81

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  5. I have a real aversion to the word wisdom, doubtless due to childhood influences. So after a deep breath so I can take the article on its merits...

    The article is fine from a neurotypical perspective. I am convinced that growth occurs in accordance with one's one nature; it is flowing with one's own river. We can trust our own beings: and even if we can't, it will feel better if we do.

    Mr Hyde has mentioned neuroplasticity and I'm also sure the potential benefits are available for the psychopath, too. What that looks like, however, might be different to the "wisdom" described in the article.

    As you read me, please keep in mind I'm coming from a position of understanding the human brain is designed to convince, that we are social creatures who work together to manage resources to facilitate survival of our own genepool. Note the inherent tension there. For someone not in possession of the social-emotional apparatus, it makes sense that survival approaches differ completely! It makes sense that one focuses more on their own foundational needs, which probably manifests as power/asociality (this is my current working hypothesis.) Of course, this leads to greater risk of social exclusion. That's the lot of the psychopath.

    Good and evil are labels and always applied contextually, often rhetorically and usually in reflection of / opposition to the voice of power in that context.
    There is no categorical "good" and categorical "evil". "Wise" and "unwise" are similarly labels and they often refer to coordinated patterns of action with respect to some broader goal, possibly of social contribution. It's nebulous.

    As we are all aware, psychopaths and neurotypicals have different modes of operation: different pleasures, different incentives, different toolkits. Because of this claiming a psychopath is unwise because they do not act as a wise neurotypical - while true from the perspective of the neurotypical - is a fruitless and potentially time-wasting affair. From what I read here and have discovered, psychopaths simply do not have the biological apparatus for neurotypical wisdom.

    Rather, Mr Hyde has pointed to a better way. For psychopaths and neurotypicals alike, perceiving and delighting in a better vision for oneself is the first step to growth. Neuroplasticity is the key. We are ever learning, ever adapting beings and to a large extent we simply need to get out of our own way in order to grow (I now no longer regard my process as "healing". It's adaptation.) The brain - and I'm sure this goes for the psychopath too - tends to integration. It knows how to make itself whole.

    I think we all discover what a whole and integrated life looks like for our own selves as we go along. Applying some external criteria of good is not helpful when it comes to our selves (except for purposes of creating a vision), but it is helpful for us in normalising or maintaining a viable place in the tribe.

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  6. If a person is labeled evil "sadism" surely have to play some part? Folks in general don´t do nasty stuff just because they are stupid?

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  7. Adam The Lavish GentlemanMarch 21, 2016 at 11:01 AM

    I like UKan because he is larger than life. The best people are always larger than life, those who grab life in a choke hold and make it answer to their dreams and whims. It's not easy to have such a powerful self belief. We hate mediocrity and everyday is a struggle to fend off common people with common minds who want us to have the same dreary existence as they. Who said you must work and joy is only something that is fleeting and you should be ashamed of having constant fun? That is a lie put out by the common people and if you buy it, you'll have a very poor existence. Everyday should be spent enjoying oneself. Just do it in a tasteful manner and not a crude one. That's the only rule.

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    Replies
    1. UKan runs away at even mild challenges.

      Have whatever life you choose; just expect that if you trample others rights or squander their resources they will be pissed and you risk ostracisation. Simple.

      Delete
    2. North. Exactly. It must be a learning experience - for all parties involved.

      Delete
  8. Clever, law-abiding psychopaths (with no inner sadist) most likely spend their lives being "kind", because they realize this takes them further (creates less resistance) than other kind of attitudes? And if they only act "good", perhaps they could be labeled good? Aren´t deeds heavier than thoughts..?

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    Replies
    1. Adam The Lavish GentlemanMarch 21, 2016 at 1:36 PM

      No psychopath is law abiding. Only fools such as yourself think following the rules your masters set makes one 'clever' do you want a little chocolate muffin and a 'empath of the week' sticker too? Following rules doesn't make one innocent and pure, rather the opposite it makes you tainted and corrupt! When you follow only your own inner world and soul and not external influences, then only are you innocent. Great men do not listen to their parents, teachers or cultural icons, they follow their own powerful convictions.

      Delete
    2. Here is a very concise rare glimpse into the sociopaths (savile was definitely one) inner workings. they have 'ultimate freedom'

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iHMVGtyvxY

      Delete
    3. "When you follow only your own inner world and soul and not external influences, then only are you innocent."

      Agree with this although 'pure' might work better than 'innocent.'

      As for the implications: it's for the surfer to navigate the waves of experience as he or she chooses.

      Delete
    4. ?? MOST psychopaths are law abiding, they buy sausages like most folks do. The stupid ones do other things and go to jail. There they blame society, when the only one to blame is the one whining. The law-abiding ones of course have no respect for others moral or laws, but realize that open defiance will only get them in places they don´t want to be. I doubt any real socio will feel ashamed by being nice or follow rules and playing the game so that they will reap rewards in the end. Its what´s rational, and socios are famous for that feature. Most socios have petty lives like non-socios do, and the rules ARE written by others.

      Delete
    5. You think you're fooling everyone around by you playing along (but with an ulterior motive) but in order to get what you want, you still have to give the world what it demands. In the end you've done what is expected of you (on the outside) but you have no inner satisfaction because you're a fake. Nice trick...on you.

      Delete
    6. Socios are completely reliant on the fact that the non socio will take the high road. They know we are better stronger and will evolve from adversity where they will just pull a con job and run like hell. If we responded in the way they deserve we respond they would have to change. The laws of polite society completely work in their favor and they know it.

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    7. But socios need to understand that even polite society has its own way of balancing the scales.

      Delete
    8. "The laws of polite society completely work in their favor and they know it."

      Yes they do, ever consider they are encouraged and maintained by other socios? Emps are so myopic. If you had any moral /strength/, you /would/ respond in the way you think they deserve. You're misguided in how, but you would at least respond. This phenomenon and others only fuel the contempt toward emps and show you to be weak, thus inferior. You won't even open your mouth to save yourselves or others! More concerned about how you /look/! Who could admire a craven like that! Gross. You are disgusting and a betrayer of your own kind. You are high if you think you took the better road.

      Delete
  9. How exactly is "acting" good considered having fun all the time? It seems like a nightmare to me.

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  10. I just heard this song, and thought I'd share:

    INXS

    "Never Tear Us Apart"

    Don't ask me
    What you know is true
    Don't have to tell you
    I love your precious heart

    I
    I was standing
    You were there
    Two worlds collided
    And they could never tear us apart

    We could live
    For a thousand years
    But if I hurt you
    I'd make wine from your tears

    I told you
    That we could fly
    'Cause we all have wings
    But some of us don't know why

    I
    I was standing
    You were there
    Two worlds collided
    And they could never ever tear us apart

    ~Vegas

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  11. Socioempath-

    Thanks for the tip, on how to include links!!!

    NM-I'm still sad I didn't see Prague, after my time in Germany.:(

    I WILL MAKE IT TO PRAGUE & VIENNA, TOO!!!

    ~Vegas

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    Replies
    1. NM-

      I mentioned that, since the video for that song, is shot in Prague.:)

      The lead singer, Michael Hutchence, was HOT!!!

      ~Vegas

      Delete
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    ReplyDelete
  13. Yes, it is absolutely possible for someone to go from being selfish and callous to wise and kind. I suspect it is easier for a psychopath to do this than a nonpsychopath. here is how - life is a succession of moments. the past is just a memory and the future is a thought. if you collect your attention and notice how your mind is between thoughts, you will see that it is full of sight, sound, feeling, etc. there is no good or bad (in the moral sense) and there is no you (in the sense of being a person continuing in a permanent way through time - because if you collect your attention, there is only whatever you see going on now - perhaps the universe just came into being. it is always this way). if you repeatedly collect your attention, recognize what you will do next and do it with full concentration, you will be fully engaged (flow) and happy. even if you are hungry, poor, etc (theunpleasntness of that comes from thinking/feeling/dwelling on that crap). if you do this enough you will see that most people are miserable most of tge time and you will want to be helpful to them, so maybe you'll take a prosocial action as your next step. just rinse was and repeat all the time. this is zen/Stoicism 101.

    ReplyDelete
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