Sunday, July 20, 2014

Morality experiment

From same reader:

My experience my entire life has been people trying to lay a moral "trip" on me - in the sense that I "ought" to be "good". They never gave me a convincing reason. It was always easy for me to see, for instance, that me taking what I wanted led to me getting what I wanted. Maybe I got punished, so I needed to be sneaky and not get caught. I have a calculating mind, so I'd take risks if it seemed like the benefits outweighed the costs. This is classic sociopathy/psychopathy. I've been this way as long as I can remember.

Recently, after the losing-my-sense of self experience (see previous emails), I noticed that depending on how I behaved, I'd have more or fewer thoughts about "me". That is, if I had a conversation with someone and I wasn't truthful, I'd replay the conversation in my head. That gets in the way of having fun. Rather than being able to enjoy what's in front of me, I'm replaying my lies. Of course, it makes it easier to remember the lies and whom I lied to, but it isn't as fun as being able to enjoy whatever I'm doing when I'm doing it.

So I did some reading, in a book written by an embezzler (sociopath?), "A Practical Guide to True Happiness". In it, he explains that when we do things like kill, lie, steal, etc. that is exactly what happens: we'll feel more disconnected from life. If you've experienced being connected to life and then the feeling of contraction, you know that one is nicer to live. So his advice is that we eschew lying, stealing, etc. And if you notice this stuff, you change your behavior. Once you figure out that the stove is hot, you stop touching it.

After experiencing things and paying attention, I've decided to change my behaviors and behave morally - so that I'll have peace of mind. It has nothing to do with good/bad or moral/immoral. I feel relieved to have figured out this. For about four decades, I've been a deliberately amoral person. As you'd expect. I've treated people badly, treated animals badly, lied all the time (aka "living a secret life"), cheated, stolen, etc. Relief is near immediate. You get peace of mind and it stays.

This is the one way I can see an evil person deciding that he wants to live a moral life: he decides he wants complete peace of mind.

I should have figured it out by now - but as you know, sociopaths aren't that good at learning from negative feedback (in this case, contraction of mind) nor do they have much insight (into what their mind is like from moment to moment). The classic way of trying to tell a sociopath to behave ("do it or else" or just "be good") doesn't work at all and leads to resistance.



I thought I'd propose the following exercise for your sociopathic audience:

1) Pack a bag of waste paper, empty bottles, etc. into a plastic bag. Try to make sure it has some trash that blows away.

2) Go out on a walk in nature on a windy day. Make sure you are alone. Do deep breathing to get REALLY relaxed. Watch the play of light, sounds and feel your feet and legs as you walk around. If you concentrate on your breath, you'll get more and more relaxed. There might be a feeling of contentment. Your sense of who you are may be feeling "bigger" and more vacuous - check and see if you feel that way, or if you feel like a robot made of meat, trapped in your body. When you are very content and relaxed, move to step 3. Even if you are anticipating step 3, try to set that aside, and focus on relaxing and noticing as much as you possibly can.

3) Take out the bag of trash and empty it. Watch the stuff blow away. Try to see how you think and feel. Does your mind contract? Do you feel more or less like someone trapped in a body. Does your mind fill with justifications about why littering is OK? What is your mind doing? How does your body feel?

4) Notice - how connected to nature do you feel? Any regrets?

5) Leave all the trash there and get away. Notice if your mind replays the incident later, or if you have any thoughts about it.

Another similar exercise:

1) Drive your car in some traffic. Get into a relaxed, happy, content mood. Pay attention to the breath as you drive. Reflect on how miraculous it is that you've got a body, a car, eyesight and all that you need to drive down the road. Try to notice how you feel in your body. Big and vacuous sense of self? Or do you feel weak and like you're trapped in your body? When you're feeling relaxed and content, or even joyous, move to the next step.

2) Do some bad driving in front of other people. E.g. run a red light. Go through a stop sign that you should. Do a u-turn in the wrong place. Just pick some maneuver that is anti-social, but that won't get you put in jail. Do it. Do a bunch of it.

2) Notice how you feel in your body. What sort of thoughts are you having? Do you feel better or worse than when you were relaxed? Is your mind filled with justifications. Do you feel connected to your fellow humans.

3) Note if you replay the incident in your head, replay what you'd say if told not to do it, etc. The point is to notice if what you do impacts your experience later. Does it?

When I did these experiments, I was bothered at how it felt to be me afterwards. I enjoyed being relaxed and happy more than I enjoyed being selfish.

It might be nice if your readers would do some experiments and send you responses. You could get two blog posts out of it. :-)

91 comments:

  1. Psychopaths should "harness" their urges, not "go surfing". Ask questions like: "-Would I benefit if society turned into anarchy & fell apart?" the answer is almost always "no". There is no excuse for "letting go". Socios are no "landed gentry" with exclusive rights, no elite hedonistic libertine club. Most see things exactly that way in their mind, probably all. But that´s not reality. They should get in line. Folks with that kind of thought patterns are extreme & need to "chill". They need to discipline themselves with good deeds. If they manage this, then they are "good"; no empath regime can then label them enemies of society, fiends. If a wallet has fallen on the street, return it to its owner. Now its time to be good.

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    1. I have a real problem with mischievousness. I've been working on this whole behaving thing though except yesterday when a guy got off the bus, and he dropped his wallet, and I walked by and didn't tell him about it. I chuckled to myself. I think I may have felt my conscience for half a second. I don't know if I can ever give up violating social norms though. It's too much fun.

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    2. Really? No guilt? So is that a Cluster B thing?

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    3. I would probably return the wallet with a few bills missing, telling him saw a guy pick it from his pocket and drop it on the floor. If I'm feeling saintly I might just return it.

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    4. I'm not hurting for cash, so I'd just return it to the guy and try to build some social capital instead. If I were really strapped I might take a little money.

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    5. Oldandwise

      I said I felt my conscience for half a second and that outta count for something :P

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    6. I'm not amoral. I've got a few moral neurons floatin around in there. Its like there's two moral neurons swimming through the brain juices at high speeds to come together to create a full moral thought or behavior...and then......they...just....sorta.....miss each other. Sometimes my morality takes a vacation.

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    7. Sorry but the half second does not count. Actually it makes it worse :-) Yes, yes, I know I am a sucker... Guilt is in my genes. It was activated by being raised a catholic. I would do the same you did if I thought the guy was an asshole. Then I would actually enjoy it. So you think it common to bdp to behave like this? From your earlier description I thought bdp were over emotional. I had assumed guilt would have been up there in the repertoire.

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    8. Morality in bpd is complex just like empathy in bpd is complex. If you ask me to adopt mainstream society’s morals, I feel like an evil demon having holy water chucked at it. I didn’t make these rules yet I’m expected to adhere to them. The way empathy is processed in someone with bpd is different. I’ve come across numerous people with a bpd diagnosis that are little empathy compromised in their interpersonal relationships, but will have deep empathy for issues on a larger scale such as social issues related to homelessness, abused children, mental illness, the handicapped, etc etc. There’s a story I like to tell that gives a concrete example of what it is that I’m usually talking about in regards to empathy and bpd. There was a man with bpd who up and left his family (wife and kids) one day for another woman. He showed very little empathy towards them as they suffered terribly, and yet he had deep empathy for animals, and one day while at petsmart felt such deep empathy for the gold fish that he purchased every single one of them, and then released them in to a river. In regards to what you had to say about the wallet, a moral or ethic based on emotion can be inconsistent, and is soley based on a biased perception rather than the objective truth. You operate within a framework that tells you you should experience feelings of guilt if you don’t return the wallet unless they were an asshole, then it is perfectly justifiable to not return it. The cognitive justification ameliorated any psychological discomfort you may have experienced by not returning the wallet. This however did not change the actual experience, only your perception of events changed. Regardless of how you feel, if the wallet is not returned the person will experience frustration, anger, pain, and whatever other emotions may go along with losing money, credit cards, ID, etc.

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  2. "This is classic sociopathy" no, its not its classic being a little scared bitch.

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  3. M.E., you sound like you're developing a conscience. I wouldn't do exercise #1 because I don't like pollution so why add to it. I can't do #2 because I don't have a car. But imagining myself doing this gives me a feeling of exultation. We're "connected" to other people no matter what. Driving illegally is a form of communication. It's saying, "I do what I want and you can't stop me." But I wouldn't do it around a cop.

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  4. An even easier way to relax, feel free, and peaceful is reggae. The good kind, not dancehall (it isn't bad but doesnt calm anyone down). I listen to reggae pretty much all the time, I'm thhe happiest mofo I know ^_^

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    1. Can you please share a link for some good reggae music?

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    2. Sure, why not...
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4xT3JXwtpY

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikzQmC3S-mE

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-eXYJnV3V4

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR63jVvLVLI

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iOtexELOxc

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zfJr5AE4qI

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30GHWqX4OEo

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr7FVah6oHs

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTOyeFQgZKk

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXEMXb-kU3c

      A few of the top of my head. There arr just too many good ones. Those are also some of the more popular ones, where the accents aren't too h ass rd to understand or where they don't speak patois. Some background knowledge of the eastafaru culture can help understand some of the songs too.

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    3. Oh, this one I find particularly relaxing (my parents hate it).
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCRI4ADJlVU

      Except for that last one I tried to stay clear of Bob Marley, since I figured his popular enough that people might know his good ones.

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    4. This is actually very appropriate... :)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbqiCxEIeEo

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    5. I liked it XD clever

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  5. Meditation & Buddhism teach all sorts of mind-easing techniques which help me immensely. It's not about right or wrong for me, no, rather meditation is about keeping myself in a state-of-mind that allows me to stay in a happy place. It is easy as hell for me to give into my dark or angry thoughts.......but as M.E. says, I too agree, I am not nearly as happy / content-like (lol) when I allow my mind to race on these dark angry jealous thought patterns. Meditation (breathing) in the morning for 20 minutes and a continual as-needed meditation have helped me live a less chaotic, crowded life inside my head.

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    1. What goes through your mind when you meditate? Do you ask yourself questions? Do you think of anything?

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  6. @ANON 10:15 I agree. I meditate myself. Found it to be one of the few ways I can achieve peace of mind outside of sex, video games, and maybe one or two other things :)

    One of the cornerstones of Buddhism is the concept that everyone is a "teacher" ..... in this regard I do find my place in the world to have meaning & (although I'm Atheist) I will admit that (if there were to be a God) this may be his/her place for us here on Earth. To teach empaths something. Do I really give a fuck about what I'm saying? No. But that's the bullshit version of events that I told my ex and she seemed to find it had meaning.

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    1. That's hilarious. The things significant others will believe.

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    2. "Do I really give a fuck about what I'm saying? No. But that's the bullshit version of events that I told my ex and she seemed to find it had meaning."
      I definitely understand where you're coming from. I don't do any meditation myself, but I am a believing and practicing Catholic. Because I am sociopathic, I find it easy to understand a lot of the rules, and actions God takes (which people usually find heartless, especially in the Old Testament). In my view of the world I guess you could consider me a bit of a mixture between Rastafari, Sufi Muslim, and Catholic. I have a lot of "deep" conversation with people, and they tend to find meaning in them, and many come out of them feeling enlightened. I just speak my thought, not that I particularly care about any of it, but people do seem to find them helpful and mind broadening. So, I can relate to the teacher part.

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    3. Really when I read this I feel like all you people sound so full of shiiit. I am just learning about sociopaths because I just found out my mothers one or appears to be one she couldn't tell the truth to save her life an I feel like she thinks she loves us butt she is content with ruining the people she "Loves" she appears to be loving carrying mother but throughout the years I see through her bs an the more I read this I'm wondering if this is really a disorder or a fuckn excuse to only make yourself happy and its scares the crap out of me cause I don't wanna be the same way

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    4. Anon,
      It really is a disorder. If you did the things your mother does, would you start to feel bad about it eventually? Even if you sat there making excuses for your behavior, wouldn't you still feel guilty deep down? If she is a socio, she doesn't feel guilty about her actions. If you feel guilty about doing immoral things, you're not a socio. You say you feel scared that you might be the same way. A socio would either not care, or find it interesting in an intellectual way. You're most likely alright.

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  7. I'm such a bitch that littering and making illegal u-turns makes me feel bad about myself, that's "classic sociopathy/psychopathy". 'Cause ya know, normal people never litter or drive like morons.

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  8. I don't typically litter, although I do sometimes. And I am an extremely aggressive driver. I wouldn't give a second thought to either of these things.

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    1. Then assuming you don't do it already, try cutting in front of people in line at the store. Be openly dickish about it.

      See if after the fact, you have thoughts about how it was OK (because they were going to take too long anyway) or me-vs-them thoughts.

      Or in public (assuming you don't do this already), hear two women talking and say, "that's remarkably stupid" to one of their remarks. See what it does to your mind. Or say it in front of two men.

      The point is just to push the envelope on your "moral code" and notice what your subjective experience is.

      Then when you do the extremely aggressive driving and littering - which you'll do because it is a habit - see if you have a similar experience.

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    2. True story... My wife hasn't let me push the buggy at the grocery store in seven or eight years because I tend to push people out of the way, cut them off, and be generally dickish. Of course, I'm a lot more polite now that I'm trying to seem like a respected member of the community now.

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    3. The mental image I'm getting makes me laugh.

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    4. Hieronymous Bot, how did you decide to get married to your wife?

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    5. Old lady standing in front of the section looking indecisive. Aggressive driver with a road rage trigger finger shows up. "Blocking the way, cunt". Knocks her out the way, takes his pick and leaves nonchalantly.

      And yah how did you figure you should marry her. Did she like you and you decided why not, was it out of convenience, or did you come to enjoy her company after time?

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    6. He liked it, and kept the ham sandwich.

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    7. Tii, that's not far from the mark. It's like the store was an obstacle course and people were the obstacles.

      The decision to get married was a practical one, not necessarily a romantic one. I was getting ready to move to another state, and I was pretty sure she wouldn't come with if I didn't offer some kind of commitment. We get along really well. She shares some of my cynicism, and outpaces me on misanthropy. It doesn't hurt that she is stunningly beautiful to the point that strangers or old ladies often ask if she is a celebrity or a model. The sex was good. Anyway, I didn't want to break up with her so it was the next step. There weren't any romantic declarations of love beyond what was necessary, neither of us really go for that. So like I said, more of a practical decision than anything. Let me just say that I have discovered that when people ask to know how you got engaged, "I didn't want to stop boning her" isn't exactly what they want to hear.

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    8. As good a reason as any XD

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  9. But... why? How does this benefit me at all? Why would I do either of these things? I understand that this is an experiment in morality, but it does nothing except shows us how our minds react to certain stimuli. It offers no benefit outside of academic interest. I know what relaxes me. Why would I do something supposedly detrimental to my self-interest? Perhaps the problem is that, instead of trying to find contentment, you keep seeking things out that make you uncomfortable, instead of avoiding them.

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    1. It could be that you've got habits that don't feel help you to feel good, but you don't know it.

      Look at worriers. They don't know that what they worry about and how much they worry are completely arbitrary.

      If they had insight, they'd probably recognize their worry as something their mind was just doing. But they don't - they think they are "correct" to worry.

      Maybe you are the same about your anti-social behavior.

      Rationally, if there's no reason to be antisocial, you might as well go all the way. But you don't. You've got a code, and you draw the lines and stay within them.

      If you experiment carefully, you'll learn something about how your mind works. You'll live in your mind for the rest of your life, so you might as well get to know it.

      Maybe it will turn out that being even more antisocial than you are now works just fine for you.

      Yes, the experiment has a cost - in that temporarily you'll violate your code. You'll probably feel uncomfortable. The upside is that you'll learn about your mind and how it works, which might lead to you being more happy, less bored, etc in the long term.

      I wish someone had mentioned this technique to me a while ago. I was antisocial, fearless and curious enough to do it. But it didn't occur to me.

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  10. The idea behind these exercises is good, but they are unnessary.
    You don't have to DO anything. You only have to SEE. In the spiritual
    world, the SEEING IS THE DOING, like a light bulb that goes off in your mind.
    No one KNOWLING harms himself or herself. People are trapped in habitual ignorance. They can't see alternatives because they are
    "asleep," They don't practace self observation, or "be here now."
    Once they wake up, and see they HAVE alternatives, and a way to stop
    harming themselves, they become symbolically "born again" and shirk
    off pathology-providing they eat a wholesome diet.

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  11. The author has anti-social tendencies, but clearly has some amount of guilt (that's what I would call a trace amount - feelings per se are not present, but the guilt theme thoughts are there and force themselves into consciousness) and thus assumes everyone is like that, which is not the case.

    It's like if a straight person said to a homosexual male "relax, bla bla, meditate, bla bla bla, than take a cock into your mouth and feel the feel of how it feels to have your mind contract in shock because of how disgusting you are".

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  12. A couple of questions for fellow blog readers:
    1. Do you identify as sociopath, empath, or something else?
    2. Have you ever felt "trapped in your body", if so what caused that feeling?

    I identify as a sociopath. I've never felt trapped in my body, probably because I've never had a feeling of mind-body duality.

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    1. I'm not sure what exactly is meant by this feeling, but as long as I live I feel like I'm trapped in my head with a histrionic arsehole, who would get paranoid, impulsive, depressive, sadistic, masochistic, overly euphoric and god knows what else and try his best to make me behave accordingly, at the same time doing almost of all the tedious calculations and coming up with estimations, which I simply would never be able to do. This is my unconscious part.

      As the time progresses I get more and more effective in ignoring it when it does the emotion thing and listening to it when it has something clever to say. Basically, I found that you have to empirically find which parts of yourself to listen and which ones to ignore based on have often they were right and wrong.

      I cannot be diagnosed with any disorder.

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    2. Same here.

      I don't care enough about people's opinions that I'd take a diagnosis seriously.

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    3. I identify as a sociopath, although I am self diagnosed. I don't really feel like actually seeing a shrink because of time, money, effort, plus, like others have mentioned, I don't care enough to actually sit down, talk, and listen to a person telling me what I am. There's no way I could actually do it without trying to mess with them, I would come out of there with hundreds of diagnoses, and leave a confused shrink behind.

      I've never felt trapped in my body. I'm very comfortable in my skin, and I'm satisfied (if not more) with the way I am. But I have felt trapped in a world where I feel that most people around me don't think enough. People are overly sensitive, desperate, worrisome, and limited. Nearly all logic points I try to explain is counteracted with emotional, moralistic views that stand on very little reasoning. It gets pretty annoying sometimes, but if you don't want to be outed you have to play along. The world becomes pretty boring when people are governed by there emotions and not there mind.

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    4. Autism seems a more fitting diagnosis.

      It also comes with more benefits.

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    5. Hahah maybe I don't really know what causes people to be diagnosed as autistics. Though I fail to see any benefits. What do you mean by that?

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    6. Tii, are you really young? I’m wondering if the desire to play mind games with a shrink is common with young sociopaths. I remember in my teens I was dating a guy who was really abusive, even physically. He had to be a cluster b something or another. At one point I hid a knife under my bed intending on stabbing him if he ever attacked me. I think about it now a lot, and I should have killed him. If I could go back in time I would. Anyway, he always talked about wanting to see a shrink to play mind games with them. Even as a kid, I couldn’t see how far someone could really get with that. I’m just wondering if that’s common for younger sociopaths though to wanna do something like that.

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    7. I wouldn't call it very young but yah I'm 19. I don't think I know any other sociopaths, so I couldn't tell you whether or not it's common. The way I see it, it's a test of wits. A chess game between one person who studies the human mind, behavior and patterns, and a person who feels like he has complete mastery of those. I guess it's to see who can go further.

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    8. Hmm interesting. How do you imagine it playing out?

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    9. It appears that so far the only person who feels trapped in their body is whoever wrote in to ME.

      I've never had a desire to play games with a shrink over other people. But I judge people based on the qualities I see in them as an individual, not on their job description. I'm sure there are lots of worthy opponents in the mental health field, but there are also some like the therapist I had to see in highschool. What an utterly clueless and obtuse woman she was.

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    10. Dev, did you mess with your therapist XD?

      Dr. G, I imagine that I would go in pretending that I know nothing about sociopathy. I'd tell them that someone who knows me well called me a sociopath, and told me about their traits and how they matched mine. I'd tell them that I came because I know that sociopathd are crazy serial killers, rapists, and terrorists, and that I had no intentions or urges to kill, rape or terrorize anyone but, that I didn't know if those came later on in life. I would ask her if I am someone who would turn out like that because i really don't want to go to jail (saying that I don't want to go to jail, and not that I didn't want to hurt anyone, should prove that my priorities aren't exactly organized as they should and should hint a little towards sociopath). I would keep displaying sociopathic thoughts in my conversations, while talking about ASPD in a way that a clueless person would (which should prove to some extent that I'm not faking it). Then I would somehow lead the convi and bring up the fact that I am religious and Catholic. Then I would say that even though sometimes it's hard and I don't want to care about others and follow the book, I still try to so that I don't end up in hell. Then I would in a way ask them how to love people because loving your neighbor is a commandment. Sometime during their part of the discussion I would interrupt and say that I didn't understand God because sometimes he tells me to do things that the Bible tells us not to do. I would say things stealing, and pushing people into the traffic when I'm on the sidewalk and such. But then, I realized that God wasn't talking to me but the Devil was trying to get me into trouble since I try not to do bad things. Keep the conversation going and at some point grab my head and whisper "Shut up! It's not right!" And then continue talking as if it was normal. I would then ask if people turn into sociopaths because the Devil talks to them. Obviously I wouldn't do all that in shorts amount of time. During the whole convo I wouldn't express worry but annoyance at the fact that I may go to jail. If the acting was spot on what would you think.

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    11. Before that I would probably ask them to give a summary and some key points in their life, because I don't like to give information on myself without getting anything back. I would probably try to talk about a few similar points in my life to try and get some empathy or understanding from them.

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    12. Damn, that's really disappointing. I thought by mind games you meant doing the million deductions thing and using it to provoke different reactions in a therapist which in their unity would lead to some interesting finale, but that's just being infantile, that's like throwing scraped papers at people. Any more or less alpha-male I ever knew would do something like that.

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    13. No, I didn't mess with her. She would've had to have had an IQ higher than a fence post for mind games to work. The fact that she was at least somewhat literate was shocking. Luckily I only had to sit through a couple sessions. It was as exciting as waiting in an elevator.

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    14. Gonna have to agree with Anon, weak sauce. They would probably think that you might be schizophrenic.

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    15. Dev,
      Weak sauce? Well don't hold back XD. But yah I was trying to think of ways of piling up as many mental disorders as possible. But I don't know about enough of them to go further than that, would have to research a bit more.

      Anon 11:10,
      You know how much time and/or effort that would take? That's a hassle.

      If you guys are actually interested in a scenario (It'll probably be pretty long) ---> I would have to gather information about their background, and test out there reactions to different things I throw at them. While doing that, I would have to refrain from showing any sign of any possible "problem" in me that would interest them and make me turn into a subject instead of remaining a person (which would take time and work to have them see me as a person in the first place, I don't think any shrink would hold a somehow serious convo, i.e not see it as work, with someone they believe is mentally disordered). But, I would need a reason for them to let me stay, even after they see me as a person, without raising any suspicions (which I think stable, controlled, aware and benevolent sociopath would do). But now I need a reason she would see is reasonable enough for me to want to stay. Something in the line of me wanting to have someone, who knows about it but isn't allowed to say anything to my peers about it, to keep me on track (I feel like a woman would be more understanding, so I would probably go see a female therapist, who’s difference in age isn’t too wide, single too or else it’s a whole different story). I could come by a few times and ask about why people feel certain ways, and what would be an appropriate response from me. That would force her to start opening up and speak from experience, or empathize with the person in that situation. That would tell me a bit about her habits and emotions. But coming and doing that would show concern for others, so I would have to make sure that I made it clear that I decided to act like that as a choice I made. I could probably explain that my parents have always been there for me, and gave me everything they could. They always encouraged, and tried to make me act morally, and be kind to others, and that if I can't love them properly, then at least I owe them to act in a way that wouldn't make them look bad or feel ashamed. I can make coming by a routine, and come even when I have nothing to say or ask, but just as some sort of habit. The days where I come like that, I could ask her about her days, how the job is like. Ask her how she manages, as an empath, to go to so many different people's heads without losing it, and how she manages to remember who told her what. That should add at least enough humor to loosen the convo up and switch it to her talking for a bit (The first few days I come, I can also mention that I don't want anything but someone I can talk to without having to fake anything or wanting to slap them because they really don't understand anything with there emotional reasoning. Since that would basically mean I would come to sort of unwind, she would have to treat me more as a friend then a client whether that's how she feels or not). After knowing how she handles it, I could find out a bit about how her mind works, how she organizes things, and how she reasons. I would have to come enough, and always around the same time so that she expects my arrival when the time approaches. When she gets used to that schedule it becomes less and less like a session, and more and more like a rendez vous.

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    16. Eventually I can show a little romantic interest, but not enough to alarm her. So I could give little hints that I wouldn't mind having her as a real friend in the outside world. This should force her to try to convince me that we are a bit friends. She would probably mention how long I have been coming, and use that as a way to say that she has pretty much stopped seeing me as a client and more as a friend because I've become a constant in her life. Whether or not she actually sees it that way, doesn't matter. The first time she says it will plant a seed, and every time she repeats it she will water it. Eventually, even if it's unconscious, or if she doesn't want to admit it to herself, it will come true (she's human, and, hopefully for my plan, a straight empathic woman). I flatter a little by little, enough so that she feels nice when around me, but doesn't feel that it's inappropriate. Being a psychologist that knows I'm a sociopath, she would keep a distance and refrain from actually being close to me. But because she is also a woman (an they tend to love dramatic relationship) she would be drawn to such a situation just to feel as if she was part of a movie, plus it's no that bad because I have shown that I've decide to try and stay benevolent [You have no idea how many girls fall for me even harder (8.5/10 woman I go after come to me, I've counted) when I share with them my deep secret that I am a sociopath -.- they love bragging to there friends about complicated relationships]. After she tells me about a few of her habits (not necessarily at once, and not necessarily by actually telling me it's a habit) I would "run into her" outside of work and strike up a conversation. Outside the office, which is also a reminder that she is my therapist, I suspect that she would feel more open, and so would speak more freely. I would "run into her" after a few days or weeks, and talk for a short while again. The I would bring it up the at the next time I go see her, and ask her if it's a place she goes to often. She would probably tell me that yah she goes once in a while. Next, I would start giving hints of caring and emotions, acting as if I finally have opened up to her because I've started to feel as if she was a friend or someone I could trust. She probably should start doubting her diagnosis, at least to some extent. I would also start showing little signs of pain, maybe in my voice or facial expression. At the same time I would give hints that I don't feel comfortable talking in an office, until the day I ask if it would be okay if we met up outside the office because I feel like I'm talking to a teacher or doctor, and can't talk comfortably (ask for like a café or something). If she says yes, then move to the next part. If she refuses and gives an excuse as to why that wouldn’t be alright (probably because she’s my therapist), I would joke about how I thought we were friends, while showing signs of regret and hurt feelings . Next time we meet I would close up again and show less emotions, sort of implying (with actions) that I no longer trust her because we aren’t actual friends but, therapist and client. She would again doubt her diagnosis. She would try to gain my trust again, as a therapist who wants me to open up. Over a few visits I would start opening up but not show trust. Then bring up the café again. T

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    17. To gain grounds instead of losing some again, she would probably say yes, and I would proceed to the next part. If she’s annoying and says no again -.-, well I would find another way. If it’s not possible I would go without the café. Next part, in the café she should feel more open and talk more freely (if in the office I would have to work a bit more and more carefully but pretty much same). I would tell the tale of a painful passed, and tell about how I’ve shut out and feelings since then because I stopped trusting people (a really bad break up where a girl used and ditched me or something, a lie that no one can prove wrong). Hey, look I might not be a sociopath after all. Maybe, it was just a way to cope with some bad memories (if she finds nothing else wrong with me then she might allow herself to get closer) and she starts empathizing. But now I have to tread lightly or she might think that I’m playing her. I take a somewhat deep breath (don’t want to exaggerate) and exhale, then, pretending that I’m trying to hide hurt feelings and close off bad memories, I change the subject. I ask how many other clients have ever gotten her to come outside the office, while faking a forced laugh and smile. She would have to respond with a short laugh (at least out of etiquette) before answering, which would lighten the mood (Obviously if in the office I would have to bring up something else, maybe how many years she’s been working in the field). Then, I ask her about herself, pretending that I feel like I’ve spoken enough about deep things concerning me for the day. Out of courtesy she would answer, even if it’s just trivial stuff. I get her to tell me a little bit about herself, I accept as much as she gives and don’t force. I start opening more and more to her, the more that I come, but I don’t do it enough so that she sees me as a damaged puppy that she is healing, and I have to show somehow that I’m not desperate for company or someone to talk to but that I feel comfortable talking to her, and have begun to enjoy it (if possible outside of the office.) I slowly start talking about trivial things that have nothing to do with me, things that friends would talk about ( I have to flatter her too once in a while). I start dropping hints that I like her, until one day I tell her that I won’t be stopping by anymore because I can’t do it anymore (implying as much as possible that I have fallen for her, without actually saying it). She’s only my therapist so it’s okay, but somewhere inside the woman should feel flattered and somehow disappointed that the attention will end (over time I have to get comfortable enough, and be the less clienty client that she has, so that once appointment time comes it’s like a breath of fresh air to her, and she doesn’t feel like she is working).

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    18. I ask if it’s okay if I call once in a while if I want some advice as a friend (hopefully she tells me to call her personal number and not work phone). I mean it would be the dickiest move to say no, so yes. I stop, coming and phone once in a while, with questions or for advice. Add some friendly things and humor to the conversation. Keep them short but long enough that she gets to open up a little bit. Calls then become shorter and less frequent, while also becoming more for advice or questions, and less for friendly stuff. Then, I just stop calling. The last remaining feeling of what was once a time of relief disappears. Then I “run into” her again at that same place. Strike a conversation, have a few laughs. I ask her if she would like to get something to eat, or coffee once in a while, (if I am anywhere near as good as I think I am she will say yes, and 8.5/10 will say I am XD plus we have to remember I am no longer a sociopath, nor damaged in her eyes) and she says yes. Getting her to open up from then on and like me should be fairly easy, especially without the therapist and client signs above our head. Now we can pick an ending, 1. I start to actually enjoy being around her and we live happily ever after. 2. She’s a therapist and probably makes good money, so we end up “happily ever after”. 3. I make her fall for me and break her heart as harshly as possible. 4. The more she tells me about herself, the more I hint that she’s weird (not in a good way), but I keep making her feel good about herself until I blatantly tell her that she is definitely not normal and is unstable and should go see someone, breaking her heart horribly and making her feel like she’s got a problem and prompting her to go see a shrink.

      How’s that for elaborate deductive mind games? It was actually interesting coming up with it. Give me your thoughts if you actually made it that far. Keep in mind that without an actual subject the predictions aren’t as likely as if their was actually someone. Also, if some of the reactions are way different I might have to update and redesign.

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    19. Elaborate, yes. Deductive, not as much. Personally, I wouldn't reveal the socio card until a lot further into the game, if at all. At a minimum she would be in her mid-twenties to have completed the required education and licensing, at that age they don't work the same way as teenage and early-twenties girls. She probably wouldn't be throwing herself at your not-so-bad bad boy image. You would have a lot of things working against you: you're trying to seduce a professional in HER workplace, she's old enough to not view you as boyfriend material but not old enough to be flattered by your attention, she has you beat in social status (more money (probably), higher educational attainment, etc.) so she won't even subconsciously think of you as potential boyfriend material. You would actually have an easier time with someone who was older and single, or in a lousy marriage.

      Regardless of whether you go for the younger or older target, I would try to appear sensitive, intelligent, caring, but not a total pushover. I would go in saying that I'm feeling stressed about some upheaval in life. Then they'll view you as a normal person who's going through a difficult time, and would benefit from talking through their problems. Talking about your imaginary problem gives you the opportunity to learn more about them and formulate a strategy to keep stringing the interaction out in order to seduce them. I wouldn't come on too strong too fast, or they'll get their antennae up and assume you're up to something and go back to viewing the interaction as completely professional. Also, coming around too much and being too forward might make you seem desperate. As soon as you detect that she's getting interested in you, pull back a little. It's like teasing a dog or cat with a treat, show the treat enough to keep them engaged and following you but don't give it to them until you get them where you want them. Still, luring someone into doing stuff that they know full well might lose them their job is difficult.

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    20. Tii, you are obviously very manipulative, and seem to enjoy it. Do you also manipulate your friends?

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    21. Dev, yes I guess it wasn't as deductive as it could have been to make things interesting, but inventing a character and their personality (including feelings, meaning I'm not the best reference) is difficult, especially for a therapis since I've never really been in contact with one. But, I have to agree, an older woman who is single or in a bad marriage would be easier. Whether or not she want it the frustration would make her more vulnerable. And teasing would make it easier (I suspect the person might even start to be the one making making adcances). But, I feel like being someone with problems might make you into any other client, while someone who first seems to be a sociopath at first and turned out to be just someone who's hiding might be more interesting and mysterious. A regular person with problems I feel would just be another broken record she has to fix.

      Anon, no, I'm to lazy to manipulaye my close friends, plus their is nothing for me to work for. My friends no me for who I am and it doesn't bother them. Since I generally try to be nice they are cool with it. Though they do comment that some of my thoughts or remarks are dickish. So, I'm like that nice asshole (if it makes sense). As for other people sometimes, to a small extentbut not more then anyone else. Planning it out in my spare time can be fun or distracting, actually doing it is too much of a hassle.

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  13. Genuine socios KNOW if they are this, at least if they can spell & eat with forks & spoons. Simple quick-test for young folks: 1. Do you hate people in general? 2. Do you feel lika a half-god, despite having medium grades at school? 3. Do you almost puke with boredom when you hear about all "normal stuff" the surroundings talk about: study to be lawyer, raise family or sing in choirs? 4. Do you read books in "self defense", to be able to launch "terrifying intellectual retribution", if attacked orally by patronizing cunt? 5. Are you a stranger everywhere, no matter if its in a castle or a hut with mud floor? 4 yes/1 no may be a green light. Congratulations?

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    1. This is retarded. I say that as an anxious intelligent person. It just as well applies to smart people. Even medium grades are quite typical - a humble person, trying his best to study and really comprehend the material, will with all probability abandon his efforts, when confronted with the fact, that charming arseholes, who don't study at all, get every last A and a mentioning (or certificate, whatever) paper. In fact, a socio could be that guy.

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    2. 1. No, just indifferent to them
      2. I've always gotten excellent grades, but I'd still feel like a god even with a failing grade or an expulsion
      3. No, a lot of that normal stuff results in money
      4. No, not that insecure (see grandiosity above)
      5. Well this is the only one you sort of got right

      Submitted by a genuine socio. You should probably rethink your "simple quick-test for young folks".

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    3. Lmao, my answer:
      Shamelessly copies and pastes Dev's quiz answers.

      "1. No, just indifferent to them
      2. I've always gotten excellent grades, but I'd still feel like a god even with a failing grade or an expulsion
      3. No, a lot of that normal stuff results in money
      4. No, not that insecure (see grandiosity above)
      5. Well this is the only one you sort of got right

      Submitted by a (he is pretty sure he is) genuine socio. You should probably rethink your "simple quick-test for young folks"."

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    4. Critical correction regarding quick-test: 1. Real psychos are "evil", they hate mankind. This can be "passive" (not obvious/non agressive) but its still there, somewhere 2. Most psychos see school as jail 3. Most psychos are "here today", education on advanced levels demand many things most socios lack: patience, postponing gratification etc 4. Psychos from humble backgrounds cannot compete with posh kids whose parents read them shakespeare-stories as bedtime entertainment, this requires intellectual martial arts training. 5. Alienation is not really a sign of psychopathy, but refined psychopaths may realize that this condition is the result of their thinking/actions. Most just wonder why they became so isolated, truly puzzled..

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    5. Umm I'd have to disagree. The subject isn't as simple as generalizing it that loosely or easily.

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    6. @ Anon7:49

      1. I'm sure some are misanthropic, but not most of them. I think a lot of normal people don't understand this, because to do the things that socios do to other people would require a strong emotional response in a neurotypical. To socios it's more like burning ants.
      2. A lot of kids see school as jail, personality disorder not required.
      3. A lot of them do lack the wherewithal to complete advanced education, but that's the case with many people.
      4. Normal children from humble backgrounds usually can't compete with rich kids either. Normal or socio, if you didn't start with the advantages higher socioeconomic status brings, you will have to work harder on your own to bridge the gap.
      5. Due to the lack of authenticity in most interactions, there is some level of inherent alienation from others. Other mental disorders are much more likely to result in social isolation.

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  14. I can't help but think of the xmen movie when I visit this site. A bunch of people with special powers rejected by society out of fear, and are learning how to channel them for a positive use...at least I think that's what some of the people here are trying to do :):)

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    1. Yeah... X-men hahaha.. We are all a bunch of misfits. Enjoying life. Learning from one another. Maybe a bit misunderstood by the people surrounding us. Perhaps as Mach suggested a little while back, we should have a convention/reunion, whatever she said, with tshirts and all. Might be fun!! And, dr. g. I am sure you would be able to handle, even enjoy, being in the line of fire!

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    2. I was actually thinking of posting up something about how people always think that sociopaths are bad because of how they use their traits (gift or curse depending on who is talking). It's as if they think that the witty, clever, quick thinking and manipulation was some sort of a super power that we use for our own selfish reasons, instead of using them for good or not using them at all. It's not like the x ray vison, or mid reading, and mind control that people want to believe in. Everyone manipulates people and, everyone has there moments of indifference which is pretty much all the time except towards people next to them if not the world would have been a heel of a lot better place (with equality and free of poverty because everyone would want what's best for others). People watching accidents, mistreatment, inequality, or poverty on tv and being all like "How can people/ the government (usually never "how can WE...") allow that" then forgetting as soon as they turn off the tv, and not doing a thing to change it (I think it's safe to assume practically everyone) doesn't count as caring. The only difference between us sociopaths, and the rest is that our lack of empathy and ability to see things logically is a bit exaggerated and we are aware and acknowledge it (if a person is physically stronger than you, or run faster than you but, doesn't run into the fire to save lives or doesn't carry the old lady across the street, it doesn't mean that they are a bad person). Everyone mistreats others on some occasions, everyone lies, and everyone cheats, a lot of the times without realizing it and without feeling guilty about it. Just because we don't ever feel guilty, but actually notice and plan it out doesn't mean we are evil. Being wittier, or more clever than another isn't a super power, and using what we do best to advance in life isn't a bad thing just because the person wasn't unaware, or got stepped over. If the runner had any consideration or remorse for passing others when running his race, he would never win.

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    3. Sadly those special powers here seem mostly limited to talking crap and using foul language? Did the x-series feature "turd-men", spreading chaos by using turds, turds of intellectual destruction? If so there may be some similarities..

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    4. Well aren't you clueless ^_^

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    5. Talking crap and using foul language, sounds like the overwhelming majority of internet fora. At least on this forum, things don't manage to devolve into, "No, youuu", as often as on other sites.

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    6. "No, youuu"...? Ain't no socio got time for that...

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    7. Ain't no socio got time for that... your reggae is poking through, man! Or is it just black speak?
      Are you going to tell me new songs that I can listen to? I am always after new songs.

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    8. Oops, forget that. I just saw your earlier reply. I will listen soon! TY

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    9. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGxwbhkDjZM

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  15. Around where I live a mother recently ran down her son who was
    standing in front of her pick-up truck. They were chatting friendly.
    Suddenly, the truck lurched out of gear, pinning the son under the wheels.
    "Oh God, I don't want to die!" cried the son.
    How would a sociopathic mom react vs. an empath mom?
    Empath mom: "What have I done?! I'll never forget or forgive myself!"
    Drink, Drugs self abuse broken marriage.
    Sociopath mom: "What happened happened." I can't ruin the rest of my
    life for nothing. It would solve nothing."
    Which is the better reaction?

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    1. It depends on what type of future you're looking for. By the way, sociopaths exactly that completely heartless. She would probably be shocked, then rationalise her thoughts, then back up and call for an ambulance. If the child died even though she might not go into depression, and might cope more easily but I doubt it would be that simple. I imagine at first it wouldnbe a void, something that was such a big part of her life and that she probably cared a lot about bust vanished because of her mistake. She might constantly repeat the scene of her failure in her mind. The fact that she isn't feeling as devastated as she should, or as guilty as people would be could mess with her head and she might not be focuses enough to act the part of the devastated mother people are expecting. That would probably expose her which would hurt her socially. I also suppose she might no remain as stable as she once was and might switch from high functioning to low functioning. But then again I can't really say for sure since I can't really imagine how it would feel.

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    2. Well, if you look at it from the perspective of what brings the greatest net value to society, the socio response would be better since the damage ends there instead of snowballing. But from the perspective of a normal person, I don't think they would feel that way about it. They would probably argue that if everyone was so unfeeling that society would disintegrate.

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    3. ^ agreed.
      Now could I actually respond that way as an empath? Challenging. Good scenario though. The sociopath mother is also caring in the grand scheme of things because she's not indulging in self - destructive behaviours that's causing her /or the rest of the family more harm. A toughy I'm sure for any mother in that predicament.

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  16. Does it hurt a sociopath to see people doing things wrong?. I think i am a sociopath but i am not pretty sure,aren't there some tests for sociopaths to find out if they are sociopaths?

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    1. There's the Psychopathy Checklist Screening Version, the Psychopathic Personality Inventory, the Levenson Self-Report Psychopathy Scale, the Hare Self-Report Psychopathy Scale. In a criminal setting, the Psychopathy Checklist- Revised would be used. Some of the general personality inventories like the Minnesota Multi-Phasic Personality Inventory have sub-scales for psychopathy, but the MMPI is criticized for doing a poor job at detecting psychopathy/sociopathy. If you're using sociopath as a synonym for Anti-Social Personality Disorder, there is the DSM criteria. Some researchers believe that tests for Machiavellianism are indicative of sociopathy in non-criminal populations. To be diagnosable as a psychopath/sociopath/ASPD you need to be 18 or older.

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    2. In reply to your first question, depends what you mean by wrong. If you mean morally wrong, no. If you mean they're an incompetent moron and are messing up at a technical skill, then some socios find this incredibly irritating, but I don't think any of them would think of it as "hurt".

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  17. Just found an interesting new website, still under construction: Psychopath Tracker, which aims work to name and shame sociopaths and psychopaths publicly. The idea is that victims will share the details of 'their' psychopath to a database that will allow users to search for particular psychopaths and get in contact with others who knew the same psychopath.

    Like I said, the website is still being built so there is no database as of yet, but they sound pretty serious, already writing about needing money for legal fees for future court cases. So it's basically Lovefraud meets Wikileaks. Might be one to watch, if it ever gets off the ground. http://psychopathtracker.com/index.cfm

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  18. In the scam game, a criminal field filled with sociopaths, one code of the trade is "Never rip off people." Banks, stores, corporations and the government are fair game but not people.

    The reason has nothing to do with morality. The rationale is that if you con a Money Mart out of $1,000 it's little more than a number in an accountant's column. If you con $1,000 from a person you just took their rent. The person will fight hard and nasty for that $1,000 because if they don't they could end up homeless.

    The other rationale is that if you get away with stealing from a person you won't get much. Get caught and you've made an enemy for life. The risk is not worth the reward.

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  19. More people need to be on http://sociopath-community.com/

    !!! it used to be connected to this blog but was disconnected over a year ago. We need fresh blood and lots of interesting things have happened recently (relates to kiwifar.ms drama: https://archive.is/M2tXa) that will go down in the forum's history! Be sure to check out http://www.psychforums.com/antisocial-personality/ too, as some of its regulars are regulars on SC too!

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