Friday, July 18, 2014

Liberation unleashed

From a reader:

http://liberationunleashed.com/

Hey, I thought I should tell you I made it through the gate.

It would be very interesting to see what would happen if more sociopaths did it. Fearless, curious and introspective sociopaths ought to be able to do it.

In the process of doing it I noticed a bunch of stuff for the first time.

My everyday life is a lot nicer since doing it. If you were stuck in solitary, you'd want to live it out with a non-dual mind.

If nothing else, I suspect the lack of a strong sense of self explains a lot about sociopaths being happy even as they wreck their own lives.

M.E.: What do you mean?

Reader:

I realized that I don't have a self. There is no self to be found.

You can know that intellectually, or live your life that way from moment to moment.

When you live it moment to moment, it is a lot like being a focused sociopath (flow: sensory clarity and focus), but absolutely without any striving or clinging. It can go on for long periods of time.

One continually noticed thoughts that take one out of the moment - typically "I" thoughts - but one recognizes them as thoughts about something that doesn't really exist.

That's describing it in words - and words don't work. E.g. describe "thrill" to someone that hasn't experienced it.

Sociopaths are actually quite close to realizing the truth that there is no self, but being close isn't enough. Why is the sociopath in jail? Because although 99% of the time he accepts WHATEVER is happening, there's that 1% of the time where he thinks he needs the money, the sex, the whatever - and he acts as though he believes it.

153 comments:

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    1. The ni self is a Buddhist point of view. There is no self, no I, everyone is one in a world that doesn't exist because everything is nothing. As long as you don't recognize that you will never reach Nirvana, because Nirvana has always been here, and you've always been ther, but because of the illusion of the mind that you've invented and are now trapped in you can't see that. Don't ask... that all I understand and idk how to explain it.

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    2. Tii, how interesting. Kevin Dutton made a similar parallel in his book 'the wisdom of psychopaths':

      "Ironically, both psychopaths and Tibetan monks detect deep emotions that are invisible to others. Psychopaths are much better at recognizing those tell tale signs in the gait of traumatized assault victims."

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    3. Sounds like a good reads, seems like I'll have to get my hands on it

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  2. Having looked at the linked website and having reflected on this for a few moments, I guess it raises a question that has intrigued me for a while. M.E. mentions not having a very firm sense of self, and that puzzles me. And I guess the options are that I either don't understand what that means, or I'm sort of in the same place.

    How do most people perceive their selves? When people ask me to tell them about myself, I usually stumble through some recitation of my hobbies, or about my family, or my accomplishments or things that I have done. But it seems like those things are all electrons orbiting around the nucleus of people think of as the self. But what is that thing? When I try to think about it, it doesn't seem like there is anything there.

    So can someone elaborate on that a little bit?

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    1. It has to do with things such as metacognition and theory of mind. But more importantly, it is about self-identity. Most people have a sense of who they are as a person - as an adult - even if they are not sure where to go. Some are unsure as to who they are as a singular person as an adult. The reference to a weaker sense in self, as a sociopath, has to do with how you behave and say how you are to people - that you are a "different person" to different people. One person will know you one way, while another person will know you as another. To use a metaphor, the identity is malleable. Hence why it is "weaker", or in this case less rigid. It's different.

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    2. I do behave differently in different contexts, but doesn't everyone do that? I act differently at the office than I do at the gym, or at a bar, or around friends, or at home. I guess behavior isn't the same thing as identity, but it seems pretty close. Is it about beliefs/convictions? I don't have strong convictions, and I do tend to tailor them towards the person I'm interacting with.

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    3. While typically there is a duality with many people, in terms of a private versus public faces, most people will still stick to certain beliefs and perceptions regardless of how tactful they may phrase them to certain people (or hold their tongue). However, even there the departure is typically not as radical, or as calculated or constructed.

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  3. Lot's of 'gates' opening all over the place.

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  4. I know this is sociopath world so I don’t know how interested people are here in the borderline stuff, but I like to come here and compare what some of the similarities and differences are between borderlines and sociopaths. Most people who know me would describe me as a strong personality, but I actually have a pretty weak sense of identity. I didn’t know I was a chameleon until a couple of years ago when there was an incident, and I started to gain insight in to myself about this particular behavior. Whatever environment I am in I will take on others characteristics and behaviors. If you put me in with the elites, I’ll become an elite. If you drop me in to a crowd of anarchists during an anarchic uprising I’ll become an anarchist. It’s automatic, and I don’t really have to think about it. If you ask a borderline to describe themselves it can be very difficult. Whenever I take on someone’s characteristics, I feel like I’m genuinely in to that particular thing. When I’m away from that person or group of people, I think to myself, I’m not really in to that stuff. I try to be aware of it, and when it starts happening I stop myself, and try to stick to the real me unless it’s serving a purpose. I sometimes have episodes where I feel like I don’t have a lot of control over my impulses, and will try to avoid people until it wears off, but a few years ago I was really worked up about something, was really aggressive, and didn’t feel like I could control my impulses. It worried to the point of finding some kind of medication that might control it. I’m not psychotic; I don’t hear or see things that aren’t there, but I read risperdal is sometimes prescribed off-label for aggression. I went and got a prescription, and it completely obliterated any and all aggression to the point of feeling very vulnerable. I only took it for a few weeks, but the interesting thing is it was the only time I’ve ever felt like I had an identity, and that there was a concept of a me or an I.

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  5. I knew a high-functioning borderline while I was in the military. He was extremely invested in it as a large part of his identity. It meant more to him than anything else. I got the impression that he was using the military to attempt to enforce some consistency on his sense of self. However, reading your post I wonder if that was just normal borderline chameleon behavior. Do borderlines ever attempt to control their sense of identity through their choice of external environment?

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    1. Oops, this reply was for Dr. G.

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    2. “ He was extremely invested in it as a large part of his identity”.

      Sometimes when people receive a diagnosis, they become a bit obsessed analyizing themselves, and seeing what behavior and perceptions can be attributed to their pathology. I’m wondering if maybe that’s what was going on here. I’m not surprised he was high functioning. It seems like to me in the high functioning borderlines the aggression is aimed outwards rather than inwards like you see in low functioning bpd. Borderlines can have a lot of violent thoughts, hostility, and aggression. I’m wondering if he felt the military was an outlet for some of his tendencies.

      “Do borderlines ever attempt to control their sense of identity through their choice of external environment?”

      Hmm I’m not sure about that, I think it’s mostly them blending in to their environment.

      It seems like the sociopaths who have been commenting on this site seem extremely concerned about being identified, and I’m curious about that. Is it fear because of the general attitudes society tends to have towards sociopaths? Is it a concern of losing the ability to manipulate others? I almost never talk about my borderline diagnosis to anyone, and never really have. It gets even worse having bpd, and being in the field of psychology. There are few things that are seen as being worse than having bpd by psychologists, and I do everything in my power to disguise any pathology. I feel like a jew disguised as Gestapo.

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    3. It might have something to do with the environment. Since this is an online and anonymous environment, there is little worry for anyone to admit it or identify with it. Unlike real life, there are no real consequences here. Which is consistent with the number of people, regardless of disorder, who have revealed factors about themselves that would never be admitted in real life.

      I can relate to your concern in real life. ASPD would be right up there with BPD when it comes to disorders being revealed in psychology. I know almost for certain that it would torpedo my career if the department knew about it. Because, as you undoubtedly know, psychologists are just as susceptible to tunnel vision and stereotyping as much as anyone else. Though ironically, I have found since working with other psychologists (specifically researchers in my field) that there is no lack of pathology in the department, which is quaint.

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    4. As a quick addendum, you might have it worse. I am assuming you work in clinical, correct? Working with other clinicians would be more risky than working with other researchers (unless those researchers are also clinicians, which is fairly rare given the double requirements and maintenance of certification) since researchers can be surprisingly blind to people outside of instrumentation, unlike clinicians.

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    5. Why did you study psychology?

      A nurse told me, quite a few disordered people are working in the health care. Don't know if it is true. My Ex is a med. doctor and showed up many anti-social traits (sadist). I am a diagnosed bipolar. Haha, we were in a short relationship but I never told him about my mental illness. I wanted to tell him, but he was so in attack-mode last time we met, I had no chance to talk to him.

      Another thing I have noticed is, that some of the mental disorders seems to have similar traits.

      My idea to your question is, why psychopaths don't want to be identified, they simply don't care and they are so experienced being chameleons all the time.

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    6. I study psychology because I find it informative and interesting, though I should note it is not my first career path.

      The personality disorders do have some of their traits overlapping with other personality disorders. It's why it is considered clustered (ie. Cluster B, Axis II, etc.).

      Survival and access to resources (materials and people) comes far easier if they don't know. There is a difference between not caring, and being stupid. What is there to be gained with them knowing, compared to not knowing? The advantages (minimal) and disadvantages (significant) are clear. It's important to understand that while I don't really care about them, I do care about me. And blending in by adapting yourself to what other people like also involves not being something they don't like. Think about their reaction if they knew. You're not much of a chameleon if you first tell them you are a lizard. You're just shooting yourself in the foot.

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    7. "Is it fear because of the general attitudes society tends to have towards sociopaths? Is it a concern of losing the ability to manipulate others?"

      Yes, and yes. For me personally more the former than the latter. Revealing what I am in real life would not be a good career/social move. Normal people don't like those who are different, even when it's something completely harmless like physical appearance. They definitely won't respond well to someone who has been passing themselves off as sharing in their values system, but is actually completely amoral with a propensity for being manipulative. Business and social transactions are all predicated on some level of trust between the parties. If people knew what I was then they wouldn't want to make any transactions with me, because to their mind it would be like making a business deal with a mountain lion.

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    8. “ Working with other clinicians would be more risky than working with other researchers (unless those researchers are also clinicians, which is fairly rare given the double requirements and maintenance of certification) since researchers can be surprisingly blind to people outside of instrumentation, unlike clinicians.”

      Yes, my background is clinical, and there really is a difference between the clinical types, and psychologists in other areas such as social psychology. Psychologists pin point me falling somewhere in the bluster B range pretty quickly whenever I interact with them. It doesn’t take much though, and I’m a bit sensitive to it because I don’t like being perceived through a narrow prism. I don’t like the way that psychologists are trained to see people, and I have to admire one clinician I recently came across that said he is fighting to “put the person back in personality disorder”. I’m usually first tagged as a narcissist, then I’m told I have antisocial tendencies, then borderline. Clinical psychologists just have to place people in to a category. Out of all of the categories, these are some of the worst and most hated in the field of psychology. I’ll say something like “As an individual, Castro was a really fascinating guy”, and then bam, I’m an abusive narcissistic borderline with antisocial tendencies. Really it doesn’t take much.

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    9. Dr. G,

      What you said is exactly why I'm glad I don't work in the mental health field. The military as an organization is "abusive narcissistic borderline with antisocial tendencies", so if you as an individual are a little screwy upstairs they don't notice. Now I'm involved in the tech sector, which has a lot of strange people in it, so my abnormalities can easily go unnoticed.

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    10. haha gotta laugh at your comment :)

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    11. You should have considered non-clinical research. If people ask about the Castro comment, you can use the "curious scientist" card. That, and scientists are much easier to manipulate than observant clinicians, once you factor in their respective quirks and neuroses. Some of my colleagues are surprisingly obtuse. Not only that, but an additional degree of perceptible oddness when interacting with clinicians can be dismissed when you tell them you are in neuroscience. I've ran into an uncanny number of clinicians and clinical students who become both apprehensive, if not a little intimidated, when it is brought up.

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    12. Would We Have Drugged Up Einstein? How Anti-Authoritarianism Is Deemed a Mental Health Problem- Dr. Bruce Levine

      http://www.alternet.org/story/154225/would_we_have_drugged_up_einstein_how_anti-authoritarianism_is_deemed_a_mental_health_problem

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    13. lol I've definitely learned to phrase things a certain way so not to freak people with some of the crap I'm in to. I point out that I get to examine some of this stuff because I'm a social scientist.

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    14. Me, the reason I don't tell anyone is simple. Like Bob mentioned I gain nothing by letting anyone know, but I would lose a lot. I've figured out I was a sociopath a little while ago, but I haven't told anyone, except two people. A really emotional girl that really loves me (or more like loved), and a cousin who I'm really close to and who is really affectionate and doesn't like judging people. I let the girl know (sort of dropped hints after hints, until she caught on and I told her that her suspicions was true) because I kept hurting her unwillingly and unknowingly, which I don't like to do, but she kept coming back. I figured if I told her I could scare her off. It didn't work, so I told my cousin, who had become a friend of hers through me and who had noticed all my true characteristics (I feel comfortable around him) but didn't know there was a name for it, so that he could tell her to distance herself from me because all I would do if she kept stayihng close would be to hurt her. So far I have to say what I have are suspicions, although I'm pretty sure that I'm a sociopath. The reason I don't tell anyone is because when people think sociopaths, they think stalkers, serial killers, con artist, and cannibals (my sociology teacher asked the class and most of the answers were along those line, with very few educated ones). My life is pretty peaceful with no one knowing, people usually love me and think I'm a people person when I go out. I make new friends easily, and since I like to get at least a broad knowledge of multiple subject, I can make conversations really easily and seem interested in whatever I talk about with people, which also helps make friends. I have friends (the close ones who I'm mostly myself around who are the few I genuinely care about) that would do anything for me and I probably would do the same for them. I still haven't told my immediate family my suspicions even though I came to the conclusion thanks to them, because I do care for my family. It don't think calling it love would describe it, especially since I don't like the over used term "love", it's more like care, respect, and appreciation for them. But they also think serial killer, liar, con artist, rapist, and crazy people that snap and kill everyone they know and their classmates (I've asked). I wouldn't feel comfortable in a house where I'm constantly being watched, and where people are walking on eggshells around me. That sounds more like asylum jail then a house.

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    15. With people constantly doubting you (which you might not care about), it's hard to live peacefully (which I do care about). The people that loved me and treated me right would distance themselves and stay on guard, which means I lose friends, which are the only true valuable assets in our world. If people knew I was a sociopath, I wouldn't get the jobs I want (especially not in hospitality which I'm interested in). Without money, or connections there's nowhere to go, no way to buy anything. That would be fine if I knew for sure that I would be allowed to live out in the forest in the cabin, and hunt to live (I would love to live like that), but then I don't think that would be feasible, and I would feel like one day the village people would come up with pitchforks, axes, and torches to rid themselves of the Beast (who doesn't turn into Prince Charming at the end) or the Frankenstein up in the forest cabin. Or if I could live like a nomad, and live in grasslands, mountains, forests, by rivers, etc. and hunt to live, that too would be fine, but the only places where I could do that in the U.S would be in State Parks... and I don't think that's legal...

      All in all life is easier if you tell no one you're a sociopath. If you can live easily, peacefully, and loved by people... why make it a hassle? It's not that I care about what they think, or that I fear that they find out and start to distance themselves. Like Bob said, I care about myself and the way I live, and if I can do it with ease and peace, that's the choice I pick.

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    16. Hi Tii,

      I can appreciate your response. How do you feel about that in general? Does it make you fearful that people will find out? Does it cause you any anger or frustration that you feel like you can't be honest about it? It sounds like you have already experimented to see how people would respond if told.

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    17. sorry ignore my comment...I hadn't gotten to the end before posting that :) So it sounds like you aren't really fearful of it.

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    18. So I have another question for those with aspd. Most people feel they need to have feelings of empathy and compassion reciprocated in order to have a nurturing relationship. Where people with aspd don't always experience empathy, do you feel you need it shown to you? Does it bother you to be involved with others that may be empathy compromised?

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    19. Yah, can't really call it fear, more like I would be inconvenienced by it. On one end I really want to tell people, just to watch there reaction and have a good laugh. But, I feel like the entertainment wouldn't last long enough for me to treat it as a game. Game for a few weeks (maybe months, or years even) but annoyance in my ass for the rest of my days. When you put it on a weighing scale, the answer is obvious.

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    20. For me it's really no problem. As long as the people involved treat me well, and are/ act as friends (that would include no hypocrisy where in front of me they act nice, but behind me they badmouth me, in the end what they say damages my reputation which can prove to be bothersome, and then I have to play dirty too). As long as they act as friends at least, whether they have any feelings a friend should or not, it doesn't matter to me. I actually asked a question similar to that on a different page of this blog. I don't understand why people care whether or not I truly care or love them, if I treat them like someone who cares and loves them would. Why should it matter if my actions are beneficial? I still don't understand. I asked a friend about how she would feel if she found out someone she loved and cared about only acted as if he felt the same but without actually feeling it. I even added that the person wants her no harm, and is willing to act that way towards her for the rest of his life without doing anything that would damage her or her reputation. She said she would feel betrayed and hurt, and that she wouldn't break contact with them, she would stay friends, but distance herself from a close friend to friend acquaintance. I can't say that I understand why that would be a problem, but I pretended to feel the same. Thank God she didn't ask me to explain why I would feel that way. Just the thought of it seemed to bother her and she quickly changed the subject.

      I can't say I need it, but I do like finding out that someone likes me (especially romantically). It sorta feels like another trophy to put on your shelf.

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    21. What is more important: caring on the outside but indifferent on the inside, or caring on the inside but not caring on the outside? What matters more to you? When you have the above, how is the former any worse than the latter? What you do is of final importance, regardless of intent.

      I understand how people don't like it - they find the disparity in acting caring but not feeling caring as a universal negative. That the disingenuous nature of it is always for sinister ends. Even when it is not. But that is part of what feeling is, not in being right, but feeling right.

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    22. Dr. G,

      I can't remember ever experiencing affective empathy, and I don't feel any need to have it shown to me in a relationship. It doesn't bother me to be involved with empathy compromised people. In many ways they're easier for me to deal with than normal people, particularly if they're reasonably emotionally stable.

      The article you posted was a good read. I agree that a lot of people are pathologized when they shouldn't be. Most of the adults and children I've met who have an ADHD diagnosis, well I can't understand why they were given that label. That said, I do think ADHD is an actual problem for some people. The individuals in my family who have gotten an ADHD diagnosis really are very negatively impacted by their behavior, and the drugs definitely help. But in my family you're unlikely to come into contact with a mental health professional; your behavior has to be way out there before the other asylum inmates think it's too much. I'm skeptical about the existence of ODD. It usually seems to get diagnosed alongside ADHD, so I think it's probably just an anti-authoritarian personality with ADHD. If you're always questioning authority, but can't focus long enough to complete a thought and determine whether that authority figure is legitimate or not then you're going to have a lot of trouble navigating life and will piss off lots of people in the process.

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    23. Caring overall whether it be on the inside for outside doesn't matter. They can care all they want or ignore me, for all I care. My only concern is how they treat me. If they treat me well, then good, nice to have someone do good stuff for you. If they ignore me, or don't bother with me, cool, if they want I'll stay out of there way to, as long as no one bothers anyone fine. If they have something against me, or just don't like me, but leave me alone (in front of me and when my back is turned), fine, I respect the fact that you're mature enough to just decide I don't like him so I'll just stay away. If you have a problem with me and go looking for problems, then we will have a problem. Damage my reputation, attack me in anyway (physically or socially), I will make sure everyone saw and understand that you were the one who started and went looking for trouble, and I will return the favor (physically, socially, mentally, or emotionally, depending on my mood) quite a few folds. I don't go looking for trouble, so I expect and encourage people not to bring any to me.

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    24. "If you're always questioning authority, but can't focus long enough to complete a thought and determine whether that authority figure is legitimate or not then you're going to have a lot of trouble navigating life and will piss off lots of people in the process."

      Dev,
      That had me crack up. It sounds like slapping someone, but not staying focused enough to see the fight through.

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    25. Tii,

      Funnily enough that has literally happened with some of my ADHD relatives. Drugs are not always a bad thing.

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    26. Hahah, I would loved to witness something like that. And nope, no they're not.

      Bob,
      when you put it that way I guess I can sorta understand. But that sounds a bit paranoiac to me.

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    27. Bob,
      In regards to your comment, if I had to choose, personally I would choose "caring on the outside, but indifferent on the inside". The latter sounds like someone with bpd that doesn't have any control over their symptoms. They might have deep feelings for someone, but abuse them. Unfortunately though, you still didn't answer my question. I'm curious how you would feel if the tables were turned. It sounds like Tii and Dev are ok with being with others that may not be very empathetic as long as they are treated with decency. Tii sounds like if you abuse her, it's a very bad idea. I'm the same way. If someone hurts with me with intention it's a very bad idea. I have to sit and think if it was done with intention. I will usually try to be fair and point out that their behavior is abusive, and try to first establish boundaries, but if they continue, and especially if it is really taken to a high degree....well you guys know how it goes with this cluster b stuff :)

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    28. As noted before, actions count more. If they pretend to care, as long as it does not inhibit or otherwise negatively affect me, they can have whatever intentions they want, lie or truth. Actions really do speak louder than words. It's what they do that counts, not what they say.

      As for feeling right over being right, that phenomenon is observable over a wide variety of situations with the majority of people. Once you factor that in, you'll find that as long as you make them feel right, they will do almost anything you guide them towards, even when they would have otherwise considered it wrong. Things such as generating righteousness and conviction, if spurned in people, can be used to manufacture beliefs. Because belief is cemented by feeling right, and if you can create that, then you can make people do anything from supporting a small, immediate want to committing mass genocide, and everything in-between.

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    29. For me, the abuser's intent doesn't matter except from a strategic point of view. I'm too indifferent to care, and my obscenely large titanium plated ego seems incapable of suffering narcissistic injury, so abusive people are just annoying to me. Most of them go away on their own if you ignore them for long enough. Sometimes if they're particularly obnoxious, I will subtly manipulate them into escalating the undesirable behavior until other people see them acting like a douche. Then the abuser faces retribution from the group, and I get off looking like a paragon of calm, patience, and forgiveness.

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    30. Him* DX... I'm a him XD

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    31. Okay, I thought you were male, but then I wondered if Dr. G knew something I didn't. Now I'm curious what gender people think I am.

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    32. I sometimes use psychology to be a little mischievous, but I don't think I would be very good at any kind of elaborate manipulation. Can you guys provide some examples of when and how you manipulated someone? What were the techniques you used?

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    33. Yah, the way I feel is similar to what Dev just mentioned. I'm usually pretty peaceful, and it's pretty hard for me to feel insulted (if it's possible). It usually just slides off of me, and I let it go. But repeated attacks do get on my nerves. I usually give people three chances, even when they actually hit me. But after three strikes you're out, and I will retaliate, and everyone will be on my side 1. because they know I'm generally peaceful 2. because I will make the person seem worst then they are. Hahah I feel like I would probably get along pretty well with Dev, most people are so impulsive and butt hurt (for lack of better words).

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    34. Sorry Tii, Why did I think you were female? Dev, I thought you were male...correct me if I'm wrong :)

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    35. I also think Dev is male... But that might be due to the name

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    36. Tii,

      Why do you want to torture rapists? Would you describe it as empathizing with victims?

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    37. When? That would depend on what extent you mean. I can change people's taste and persuade them to pick a different Pizza, but I don't count that as manipulation, and something tells me it isn't what you meant. If you mean on a big scale, then I guess that depends on how naive, or vulnerable the person is. I usually don't go after people that are too vulnerable, that's neither fair, nor fun. I tend to go after confident, who think they are superior than others, or have delusions of grandeur and think they can't be touched. Not that I do it very often, I usually don't like to execute complicated plans (planning is always fun, but doing it is also a hassle). I usually get close and friendly, which i easy most of the time because of my interest in culture, language, and basic history, and since I tend to keep up with what people enjoy and try to have at least some basic knowledge on the subjects (athletes, musicians, nerds, geeks, etc.). Once I make friends, I get close enough so that they tell me personal things, and share a lot with me. They tend to want you to share also, but what I usually do is start sharing, tell them something brief about something I like, and ask them there opinion and get them to start talking again.I just keep my side of the conversation short, and only long enough to get them talking about themselves again. I've noticed that people love to talk about themselves, keep it about them and they'll just tell you everything (obviously, you only push as far as the depth of your friendship allows you to, push too hard and the chest closes and you have to pick the lock again). Once you learn about a few of their hobbies and interest, you can make educated guesses on other ones. Bring those up when the conversation starts to end. Once they're close enough to you and now see you as a confidant (which I usually am, I don't repeat what others ask me not to) they'll tend to do what you want, or what they think you'll appreciate. Maybe because they wouldn't like to get on your bad side so that you do not start letting out their secrets (in which case it's like invisible blackmail), or it could be that you're just so important to them that they don't want to lose you as one of the few person they truly talk and open up to. In any case, I tend to put pressure on both ends. I can say one word that puts them on the edge. You don't want to put so much pressure they feel threatened, and as if they should do what you say or you'll spill, but something that would conjure up the mental image of a road diverging with a sign that points to the right direction, and you let them make the choice. That way it feels to them as if they got the upper hand on you, and they are in charge of the relationship. If I think they are just scared to lose a confidant, I'll just say a few words that hint that the relationship between us is falling apart and we might start to get distant. You don't want to say anything to desperate or dramatic, or else they will think that you need them and not that they need you. After that they'll just do things in your favors to keep things the way they are.

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    38. Another manipulation I like to do is, seducing. It's fun, and it's an ego booster. The only problem is that I don't like to have girlfriends, so to make it fair, before starting I tell them that I do not date, and that if I'm ever interested in a girl, I lose all interest once they like me. Then it's just easy, I'm a good listener and I have a good memory, I've been told I'm charming and I don't mind anything that people would called girl shows or chick- flicks, and those are usually good ice breakers. And, speaking of ice breaker, I'm color blind so I tell them that, and that usually gets a conversation going. The rest is pretty easy. If you start well, and repair the cracks you make along the way quickly, it usually goes smoothly.

      When I'm done I slowly distance myself, make them feel like we just parted, and leave them unaware of any manipulation that happened. I don't consider myself a bad guy so I usually don't do anything that would anyone. I see it more along the lines of "we had a good friendship, we were mutually beneficial, now it's time to part".

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    39. With manipulation in general the key is observing the target carefully. What do they want out of you? What makes them angry, sad, happy, jealous, guilt-ridden, etc.? If you can stay calm and not rise when attacked you'll get an opportunity to learn more about them, and try out some different responses to see what happens. As long as the abuser isn't putting you in immediate danger, then assessing the situation is the best first step.

      Usually the first response I try is to attempt to validate their feelings. If they're having personal problems and taking it out on other people, that will usually defuse the situation. If they're being a jerk for a different reason and anyone witnesses the exchange, I look like a kind, caring person. Next I ignore them for a little while. If they're a bully and want someone to beat on, they will get bored and move on. If they haven't gone away, the behavior is probably based in jealousy, prejudice, or they're not right upstairs and have decided you're a fun plaything.

      Try to figure out what makes them jealous of you, or what they hate about you. Then set them off in front of other people. If they hate your guts because you have a nicer car, then make sure to start a conversation about your car with someone else. Combine conversation with ignoring the jealous person, and they are almost guaranteed to get blinding rage. Eventually, they'll slip up and make a rude comment showing themselves for the jerk they are.

      Bigots can be more difficult, they have lots of practice hiding their prejudices and are harder to out. If you have a good reputation in your social milieu, then it might be best to tell other people that you feel hurt by so and so's comments. The bigot is forced to deal with the entire group instead of just you. To manipulate them into misbehaving publicly, you'll likely need to find what will cause them to start raging or otherwise looking unreasonable besides their prejudice. Watch them to see what innocuous things get under their skin, then do those things. Everyone else won't be bothered by the innocuous things, but the bigot will be. Be patient and eventually they'll blow their top.

      If someone has decided you're their new plaything, well that's difficult. There's not a cookie cutter strategy for those. If you're a cluster B sufferer, then you probably have more insight into what makes them tick than normal people so that's an advantage.

      A more adversarial manipulative approach can also be used, but that has substantial risk of backfiring on you. If people see you behave that way, they'll decide you're the asshole. If you're not really good at manipulating, I wouldn't try it.

      So the key points:
      1. Stay calm. If you're getting emotional try to think of it as a patient or experiment that you're observing. If you have other coping strategies that help you stay calm, use them.

      2. Assess your opponent. What do they want out of the situation, and what makes them tick?

      3. Think about what will make them look bad, and you look good. Try to get them to look bad in front of other people. Most people will manage this if you give them enough rope to hang themselves. The other people will punish them for you.

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    40. Why would I torture rapists? I wouldn't call it emphasizing per se, but I guess it would be somewhere close to that. I know that if anyone did something like that with my mother, sisters, or (if I ever have one) daughter, I would do a lot more than just kill them. And, I sort of see rapists as people who can approach my loved ones at any moment, so pluck them out as I see them. I also do feel like I have a sense of fairness, and justice, seeing someone abuse another while the victim is begging them to stop is just disgusting to me and gets me pissed. The same, goes with guys that beat girl, and healthy youngsters that beat or abuse old people, children, or handicaps. The weird thing is not that I feel bad for the victims, or care about them. It's more like I hate the offender. I can't deny that I enjoy peace, and would love a more quiet, peaceful world. So I guess that seeing people like that just reminds me of why I cannot have the peace and quiet I want.

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    41. Tii said a lot of great things regarding manipulation. Do those things, and you'll have a group of people who are on your side, which is invaluable if someone difficult enters your orbit. Having dirt on other people is money in the bank, sometimes literally. Dirt will help you in climbing the career ladder.

      I'm actually female. Dev is actually for developer (I program).

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    42. XD Whoops... Nice... Never was quite patient enough to dev. I have a friend who devs, he makes character and animations, he is such a perfectionist that he sometimes makes the organs and skeletons for his animations. <---- Even though it's true, that would be a great way to appease someone who feels insulted (even though I doubt that Dev was), add a little insight on dev-ing and you have an ice breaker and a conversation started.

      I'm way too lazy to see Dev's techniques through. They sound great and are pretty foolproof, but there is one variable I don't like. Yes, everyone is on your side and you win, but I don't like the fact that its hard to anticipate the opponents reaction. Will he back away or come again and try to hit harder? Since I'm pretty peaceful, and like to act as the bigger man, I would probably go up to the person while his/her friends are around (even better if there is a mutual party around too) and say something around "Hey, you know I don't like to fight, and I don't know what I may have done but, I hate the vibe between us being like that. I think you're a pretty cool guy/dude/ girl, and I'd much rather have you as a friend, than a foe. So if you're up for it why don't we call it quits, and start over cool, Ights? How 'bout we shake hands on it?" Than, I'd let them decide. If they come back again, I'd say something similar to that, and mention the first time I proposed peace. Since it's around their friend, they will think that I'm not such a bad guy after all, which puts pressure on the person. The mutual party will see me as the good guy. If he accepts then it like I like to say (lyrics the song "The Rock" by Iration) "Never forget but forver forgive". And I can even end up a close friend to them. If they refuse and try something for a third time, then three strikes, and Dev's plan comes into play.

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    43. Wow I got them both wrong. It's funny how our perception can be effected on this site. You said "A more adversarial manipulative approach can also be used, but that has substantial risk of backfiring on you." I'm curious about this one if you don't mind sharing.

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    44. I think what she means is that if the part you play is focused on fighting, and not on achieving (or seeming to try achieving) peace, then people won't feel as drawn to your cause as they would if you seemed like a victim.

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    45. It's surprisingly difficult to guess what gender people on this site are.

      If you want to be more aggressive you'll need to learn all the ins and outs of how the target works before engaging them. Find out what makes them feel insecure or guilty and use it against them. This can be difficult if your target is already hostile. Use all the resources available to you, talk to other people, creep on their Facebook, watch and listen. If they aren't hostile get as close as you can, get them to confide in you. Once you're ready to engage, start with little barbs that appear to be off-hand comments about their weak spot. For example, if they have a habit of sucking down an entire carton of Haagen-Dazs and then feeling guilty afterward, say that you don't overeat because it makes you feel guilty and fat afterward. This will exacerbate the guilt, plus make them feel insecure and probably jealous. Keep making little jabs until they start to crack, then make pointed comments to them while both of you are out of sight and earshot of others. Isolating your target is important, they have no support from others and your bad behavior won't be seen. Turning others against them before you openly attack is a good idea, spread rumors, frame them for things you did. If the target isn't hostile they're easy to isolate as long as they trust you, in which case you might want to hold off on making them feel bad until after they're isolated. Unless they have low self-esteem, then you should knock it down a little more in a subtle way, but make it seem like you're the only person who understands and accepts them and can build them up. Once you're openly attacking you need to carefully moderate how deep you're cutting. Go too deep too early and they might retaliate, but on the other hand if you don't plunge the blade in when they're on the verge of mentally crumbling they might get away. Obviously naive, non-hostile targets are the easiest to break, but hostile ones can also be broken. If they're hostile you can also try to become their friend, or feign submission, and proceed as above. The power tripping types tend to fall for the feigned submission.

      Being aggressive raises the risk of people discovering your behavior, and openly attacking someone to finish them off is more difficult to pull off than letting others do the dirty work for you or giving your target a length of rope. The open attack phase would probably be extremely difficult if you don't have an innate talent for manipulation and cruelty.

      Attempting to make peace as Tii suggested above frequently works really well with men. If your opponent is a woman be careful. She might put on a show of making up with you, and stab you in the back later.

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    46. Dev,

      Thanks for a description of the manipulation, and the behaviors. I'm curious on your end what you are experiencing psychologically during all of this? At what point do you stop? What's the farthest you have taken something like this?

      Delete
    47. I know DX... Women tend to be so vindictive! And stubborn! Once they get something in their head, it's so hard to reason with them, even if it would benefit them. It's like, you do something unwillingly and get on their wrong side, now they hate you and want your head. You propose peace, where both of you will gain, and they might gain more than you, and more than they had before. "Nope, fuck it. I want your head." -.-

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    48. Mentally I feel very focused, there's really no affective component to it. It's another task on my to do list. I stop at the point that will achieve whatever objective the manipulation was intended for. I've never had much reactive aggression, mostly instrumental.

      The farthest I've taken it was with my mother. Almost ten years on, and she's still afraid of me. If I had to pick a victim that represents the pinnacle of my manipulative abilities and capacity for cruelty it would be her. She's not someone you want to be friends or lovers with, the trail of destruction she's left in her wake is far larger than mine. Not surprisingly she's extremely manipulative, narcissistic, and aggressive, but more emotionally volatile, reactive, and susceptible to narcissistic injury than me. I heaped on the narcissistic injury until she snapped and physically attacked me. Easier said than done with somebody like her. I didn't beat her up, I held her off me and told her she needed to calm down, which added more insult to injury. After that I treated her like she was the child, for her that's the ultimate insult.

      These days I don't go after people who haven't done anything to me first. I had a problem with it during elementary school though. Why did I do it? Because I could, and because I was bored. It wasn't as an outlet for negative emotions caused by my home life, completely predatory. I liked watching them psychologically bleed, and the intellectual challenge of getting them there was enjoyable.

      Why don't I behave that way now? Lack of interest in blood letting, doesn't do much for me anymore. Plus breaking people means they're less productive which puts a strain on the system leading to less toys for everybody, including me. Unless they're my mother, she was never productive anyway.

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    49. Yeah, with women it's all emotional so there is no reasoning with them once they've gotten to that point. If you can get them to feel differently you might have a chance. Not an easy task.

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    50. I feel like with women the only way to get back on their good side is making them romantically like you. That isn't to hard to do, I've noticed that a lot of women enjoy good romance movies, especially melodramas. You turn the situation with them into a drama, and they'll play along unknowingly until the point where the hero and the heroin who used to despise one another, have found that they're the only ones who truly understand one another. But then another problem arises, it's one thing to get them off your back... But now you have to get them off your d***. -___-

      For how far I take it. As far as is needed depending on the situation. How does it feel? Bothersome, because, like Dev mentioned, it's another task on your list (I'm lazy) but, satisfying once you're over with it. Farthest I've gone? One time in middle school (before I figured out there was a name for how I was) a kid wanted to mess with me, I ridiculed him verbally. He got pissed and punched me. I fell to the floor and let him kick me, then faked a few tears and started sobbing, then I got up and went away from the group. After that, I just pressed his buttons when no one noticed (few words and comments) and acted scared when others were around. Then he tried to beat me up again when we were alone, I pretty much judo flipped him over my shoulders, pinned him down, grabbed him by the throat and told him next time I wouldn't go so easy. Then I continued to press his buttons quietly in public ,and then pretending to be scared of him. Then when others didn't look I would smile, and mouth words like "You're a little bitch aren't you?" or "my bitch" (looking back it's pretty hilarious, I have to admit I had style XD). One day in class he could no longer take it, and started crying. The teacher asked what was wrong and he said it was me, and that I was a freak and that I was messing with him but no one would believe him. The teacher told him to calm down and that I was really nice, and that he must have misunderstood something (Everyone knew he beat me up, and word had gotten to the teachers about it. When they asked I said no, while seeming as if it was a subject I didn't want to touch). He flipped his desk, and threw his pencil and eraser at the teacher, then he threw his sharpener at me, and pushed me off my desk. He ended up getting a week or something suspension and counseling. I left him alone after that.

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    51. That story is hilarious. "My bitch", I love that.

      Romantic advances definitely help smooth things over, especially if you're a man. It can still work if you're a woman though. Those sorts of women frequently like having their vanity appealed to, so if you're a woman and flirt with them a little you can stroke their ego enough to make the situation more favorable. I'm glad I don't have to get them out of my pants later though.

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    52. Hahah guys tend to feel flattered when they find out or think a girl likes them. So I would imagine that doing that to a guy would be pretty easy. Getting them out of your pants would be even easier, hurt their ego and they stay butt hurt enough to stay away and not feel like fools. Girls on the other hand when I try that, they usually come back sobbing and telling me how I hurt them and how they don't know me anymore, that we used to be so in love but somehow it all changed and they are sorry if they did something to upset me but they will be better... <---melodrama. I should find my self an ASPD woman.

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    53. Am I the only one who has ever wondered if I've ever been out-manipulated by another sociopath, not knowing that they were one because they were as good or better than me at being chameleons? I mean, they say that almost everyone knows a sociopath but don't recognize them as such. Am I the sociopath that people around me know and I know myself, or have I met another one (maybe someone close) and haven't realized...?

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    54. Yes, melodrama so much melodrama. Unfortunately, a lot of ASPD women also create drama. More drama than the mildly irritating kind. I would stay away from most of them if I were a man.

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    55. Occasionally I've wondered but I don't think it's ever happened. I've only met two people who I think might have been sociopaths.

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    56. Dev,

      What did you do in the military? It's interesting to hear how your behavior has changed from childhood to now, and you have learned how to hone your skill a bit, and use it to your full advantage. I had mentioned to Bob before this cluster B stuff is a bit of a balancing act. If I go too far with my borderline stuff then I destroy relationships, and ultimately can't achieve some of my goals (whatever they may be). I've had to determine when it's best to use my aggression to be most effective, and when I decide it's a good time I unleash it. Most of the time though I have to keep it under wraps. More and more society is starting to really hate that kind of thing. Did you find it was easy to manipulate the borderline you knew in the military? I would think from a sociopaths perspective it would be relatively easy to manipulate a borderline with all of their intense emotions. The question is would you want to. Their vindictiveness can be never ending.

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    57. It looks like I'm late to this party, but I want to second Tii's comments about manipulation. It's easy to get people on your side if you will just flatter them by letting them talk about themselves, and I also want to second the comment about seducing people for fun. In a way, it seems stupid that having women react positively to my advances is flattering to my ego, because I'm setting them up for it. But I still enjoy it.

      I was trying to explain this to someone on another forum- I don't manipulate people out of malice. It's more like something I do for my own entertainment. Whether they get hurt is kind of irrelevant to me, except for that I try to minimize personal blowback. These days, I feel like it isn't worth the potential costs to me personally or professionally (which is ultimately just another personal cost.)

      Tii's story about messing with the bully reminded me of a similar story from my youth. I was in 6th or 7th grade, and there was this kid who was kind of a bully. We rode the same bus, and so he often tried to frighten me as we were waiting at the stop. He'd threaten to beat me up, and he would cock his arm back like he was going to punch me, but would never actually do it. One day, after school, he did this and called him a pussy and told him to do it. That made him really mad, and the next time he threatened to punch me, I just fell down, spilling my backpack and yelping about how he had hit me. And other people nearby swore they saw him do it! He got detention, I think. But after that, he never really bullied me again.

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    58. I wonder how many people imagine a poor bully who picks a sociopath to pick on, and imagines that person is gonna get Kuklinski on their ass when it sounds like in a lot of these situations it's the opposite, and the sociopath will play the victim card to manipulate others.

      Tii,

      I noticed your comment on the other thread about getting in a shrinks head. If you ever try it I want to observe and watch :) I suppose it depends on the therapist. Some you might be able to get in their heads, but others will be more savvy, and you won't really get anywhere with them in terms of any games. I had a sociopath play a game with me for awhile, but I picked up on it the first time I met him so I let him play his game for about 6 weeks just so I could observe everything. I played along too so he thought he had the power and control in the situation. There a quite a few sociopaths who are therapists. I wonder if a sociopath has ever tried to get in their heads, and I wonder what that dynamic looked like?

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    59. The only way I can explain the satisfaction I get from have a girl fall for me is as appreciation for my beautiful work, and my genius. It would be similar to the feeling people get after doing an awesome job at something people would usually think is difficult and then feeling all grand and bad ass because you did it. Although, I don't particularly feel special when I do well at actual work.

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    60. Bullies love to pick on people but somehow are always scared to get in trouble.

      Dr.G,
      Hahah, yah it would be quite an interesting scenario. If I ever attempt it, I'll record it and pass it along to you. Or, since I'm not sure if that's allowed, I'll try to find a way to contact you and let you know when and where. If it's not possible, I'll just give you the details about how it went on SW or something.

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    61. Just know that you're going to provide proof of your background as a psychologist ^_^

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    62. Dr. G,

      I worked with explosives. Fortunately, the borderline did not work with explosives, his temperament was rather explosive on its own. I wouldn't say I ever manipulated him, but I guess it depends on your definition of "manipulate". Tried to level out his emotions a little, which I was reasonably successful at, to make him more pleasant to be around. He was interesting to talk to and fun to be around. But after a time there was a problem, we had to have the 'let's just stay friends' conversation. Sometimes that doesn't go well with normal people, so I'm sure you can imagine how that went with a borderline. I think it could have gone a lot worse than it did. He raged a lot, and said some nasty things to me, but that was all. Thankfully, we were both about to transfer anyway, and spend a few years on opposite sides of the planet. Haven't had any contact with him, don't want to either.

      Going all Iceman on people is likely to land you in jail, so if you meet a sociopath on the outside their probably going to play the victim card. It's a more sensible strategy.

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    63. Tii,

      Is it because of my crazy personality? I know, no believes the doctor thing because of my crazy personality :/ It's because....umm...because...I'm irish :)

      Dev,
      "Fortunately, the borderline did not work with explosives, his temperament was rather explosive on its own."

      hahahahaha

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    64. Dr. G,

      Regarding sociopathic therapists, do many of their colleagues realize they're sociopaths? If so, how do the non-sociopath therapists feel about it?

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    65. Dr.G,
      Nah, not the crazy personality. I don't expect psychologists to have a typical "normal" personality after a day of what they do (analyze people's mind... some of which are crazy). I just don't tend to trust people, especially not people I met on the internet. I mean, I can tell you that I'm a lawyer, doctor, or professor, and all you have to rely on is my word which should mean nothing to you. Since I know that behind a screen, if I wanted to, I could create any identity for myself, I recognize that others could do the same. As far as on here, yah I see you as a psychologist (you seem to have an extended knowledge on the subject but, before I involve you in any part of my life outside of the screen on my desk, I would rather make certain that these claims are facts.

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    66. I’ve actually met several sociopaths now that studied psychology. To me, it just makes sense. I don’t think others really picked up on the therapists being sociopaths. I would argue that psychologists, to a certain extent anyway, are kind of like trained high functioning sociopaths. I have to wonder if someone observed sociopaths in academia, thought that the way they did things was efficient, and started training us to all think like that. One therapist who comes to mind thought I was a sociopath, but I’m not. He came from a good, stable home, just had some problems with empathy, and was a bit mischievous. I do wonder though what other therapists or psychologists would think about a sociopath doing therapy. I’ll have to start asking. They probably wouldn’t really care because of the strict rules that go along with licensure they would pretty much know they were doing what they are suppose to be doing.

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    67. I can understand training psychologists to behave like sociopaths. I can't imagine any good would come from getting emotionally sucked in and strangled by a patient/client's issues.

      It seems like at a superficial level all high functioning cluster B's can look like a sociopath. Out amongst the lay people, cluster B behaviors and just plain jerk behavior usually gets the sociopath label. Some of that is probably because it's the only term they know for that sort of thing. Would you say that in your field professionals also have a tendency to go for the sociopath label first, or some other PD, or "they appear to belong to cluster B"? I'm curious how psychologists tend to classify things. If programmers were psychologists then we would diagram all the person's behaviors to try determine what they were, but I suspect you guys work differently.

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    68. "I can understand training psychologists to behave like sociopaths. I can't imagine any good would come from getting emotionally sucked in and strangled by a patient/client's issues.”

      I’m so glad you understand : )

      I once told a group of psychologists we are trained to think like high functioning sociopaths, and once I explained and pointed how and why, about 12 of them agreed. One told me it's just burn out, and I need a vacation. Made me laugh : )

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    69. Yea, they get way carried away with the "antisocial tendencies" nonsense. They feel they need to categorize people as soon as they can to understand them. This is how we now conceptualize people. I think some of these ways of thinking and perceiving people needs to be challenged.

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    70. Vacations are awesome, burned out or not.

      "Antisocial tendencies", oy vey. The more scientific version of pigeon-holing. I agree it's not a good way to think about people, but I suspect it would be difficult to change. It seems to be part of human nature to want to label others and shove them in the "appropriate" box as quickly as possible.

      Looking in from the outside, it appears that currently there's more emphasis on running down a check list of behaviors to reach a diagnosis than there is on understanding why the person is behaving that way in the first place. Do you feel that that's accurate? If you could change the way people are conceptualized in psychology, what would be your ideal?

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    71. Lawyers are also trained to think this way. Of course, it comes easier to some of us than to others. I recall ME talking about her experience with this, where some people can't take the intellectual and logical leap away from their emotions. They will say something like "I agree everyone deserves a defense, but I could never represent a guilty person/pedophile/murderer." Or something to that effect.

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    72. just wanted to say that this exchange was really interesting. I like the new "cast" that seems to be developing on here.

      I also have come to the disturbing conclusion that I may have more sociopath in me than I realize and have used sociopathic thinking to get adversaries to box themselves in so they can't bother me anymore. I like to think I don't fire unless fired upon. Still, that is a very self justifying motivation.

      I like to trap people who behave hypocritically into outing themselves if they try to gain an unfair advantage against me. As a woman raised in a very conservative Christian environment this has been the key to my survival and eventual independence.

      I've always known that it was a little fucked up that Gladiator is one of my favorite movies- and how I over identify with Lucilla, the sister to Commodus (the villain). She plays nice until he threatens her child and tries to force her to be sexual with him. Then she stays nice and quietly orchestrates a coup to destroy him. She never betrays her inner turmoil and acts supportive and nurturing the whole time.

      I think what gets me angry and willing to fight dirty is the abuse of power. Those are the people I have the hardest time restraining myself from destroying.

      I really don't like this part of myself, yet at the same time I see that having the capacity for it has allowed me to break free of a system where I was socialized to be an eternal victim.

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    73. Mach,

      I think manipulation is a large part of how women in general interact in a social context, for a variety of inherent and cultural reasons. And it's not like men are innocent either. Everybody uses manipulation at some point. It sounds like you only use it in self-defense, or for a moral cause.

      Sociopaths don't need a cause. If nobody did anything to you, you probably wouldn't behave in a manipulative fashion. If it wasn't potentially self-destructive (and I was less lazy), I absolutely would destroy people just for shits and giggles. Frankly, I have to restrain myself from splattering obnoxious kids that refuse to use the sidewalk with my car. Am I filled with blinding rage? No. It's more like wanting to smash a mosquito, merely an irritation. I just don't care, being angry or getting slighted is not a prerequisite for me to engage in horrible behavior.

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    74. That's a good clarification, Dev, thanks.

      My issue now is that I'm pretty pissed off at the system I was raised in and I have to make sure I don't misappropriate rage and target someone who represents past abuses for me. So far I do ok as long as I steer clear. But pity the fool who messes with my children (especially my daughters). I want something better for them than the bullshit I was born into.

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  6. No soul. Spiritually dead.

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  7. I am going to try doing whatever it is that this involves. I'll try to approach it with an open mind, but am reminded of Descartes' famous line 'cogito ergo sum', which to this day is one of the few beliefs I hold with near absolute certainty. So this could be a challenge...

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    1. Jamie, this is interesting. It sounds like the writer would not be able to relate to "cogito ergo sum".
      It is through our emotions that we feel most alive. Internal feelings give us a sense of purpose and a drive to achieve, and most likely a sense of self. Perhaps the writer does not perceive it the same way. He needs external stimulus to come 'alive'. And that is why his behavior and demeanor is so influenced by his immediate and current environment and, I surmise, why he would easily be bored.

      I would like to say this to the writer and other people who think along the same line:
      You think too much about others, not enough about yourself. That does not make you selfless, but it prevents you from growing inner peace. When you are alone, try to answer these questions: what am I feeling Now and why? What happened in the past (recently and not so recently) that makes me feel that way? And what do I need or want in the future (immediate and longer term future) that affects how I feel Now? The more often you can accurately answer those three questions, the more inner peace and sense of self you will achieve.
      By the way, answering those questions often, especially when I don't feel good, also help me achieve "inner peace" as I called it, and regulate my moods.

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  8. In my opinion a self is that part in you that can't be changed. It is the "I am"

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  9. This is getting more and more absurd. A clinical psycho is pure will with little emotion, this is his self. An extreme empath is just emotion, this is his self. Both "contain" mentioned stuff. They are not empty bottles.

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    1. What you described is a "self-concept" for me.

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  10. There is no "you" AND the world. YOU ARE THE WORLD! You're
    ATTITUDE determines how you see the world EXCEPT for physical
    causes that DETERMINE you state of health.
    For example, if depression has a biochemical cause, you will be
    depressed. Or, if you have a tumor pressing against your brain.
    People can't percieve this because they are too identified with thier
    emotional state.
    The negative REACTION is in YOU. Where else would it be?
    So if you have sufficent rudimentry skills to know where your next meal
    is coming from, there is no reason to dispair. It really is a case of
    "Don't Worry, Be Happy."

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    1. Big ups for the "Don't Worry, Be Happy" reference XD

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  11. I think that humans are simply an advanced, sophisticated predator.

    Like all of nature, humans are mainly concerned about their survival.

    "Evil" is probably an experiment of some kind, forethought vs afterthought.

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    1. So you're saying that what people deem evil is certain intentions, not actions themselves. That seems to be the way the world works. Why do you think this definition of "evil" is an experiment?

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    2. Evil would only consider its survival in the short term.

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    3. Evil is the fearful suppression/annihilation of all realities that are generated outside of itself. It's not even "thing". It's simply a pattern of behavior that is adapted by organisms that haven't figured out a less "scorched earth" pattern of relating.

      Fortunately, evil always gets snuffed out eventually because it is simply a reaction to something else. It can't be generated organically - only as a reaction to something that feels like a threat. It has no creative power, only the capacity to destroy.

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  12. If patterns of behavior are repeated to the extent future behavior of an organism can be predicted, then there is some sort of residue that is evidence of a self.

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    1. By that logic, that would mean things like amoebas and ants would have a self? Their patterns of behavior are repeated to the extend that their future behavior can be predicted.

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    2. Are you saying that an algorithm is the self? I don't think I'm managing to follow what you mean.

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    3. the "self" is a collection of outside stimuli and as such a self can't exist. we're what we've been conditioned with. pavlov's dog experiments do a great job at explaining this and when you use look at them in a bigger picture you begin to grasp that you can be aware of you entire thinking process :) as well as know and understand how others think too.

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    4. uh… no. This moment makes it clear to me that I am a lousy communicator given the vastly different rabbit trails I've sent you each on.

      My point is: an entity that operates according to rules governing the expression of its nature will perhaps show a different face based on the situation it is confronted with, but that does not mean that the self is not constant.

      Perhaps this analogy makes sense to the more visually oriented of the crowd. Let's say the sociopath is represented by the color blue. If confronted with red, it will turn a situation purple. If it interacts with yellow, what results is green. The fact that the colors change does not mean the sociopath does not have a consistent nature. Rather, the sociopath interacts with different entities and different results occur. That being said, the nature of the sociopath remains more constant than those who can not determine the exact nature of the "x factor" of that sociopath could comprehend.

      That's why a sociopath is an asshole sometimes but not all of the time.

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    5. i think that everybody can be predicted given that we have enough info on the subject. every idea sparks from things that we experienced in the last day or two - while the things are still fresh. for an example - if we read a lot of stuff here it means that we might do it very often. then we could probably see some facebook status where someone expresses boredom and it might consciously or unconsciously drive us to start reading articles on how "sociopaths" cope with boredom - which is predictable. everything is predictable - if we or someone else can't predict someone - it's because we lack proper knowledge and understanding on how to do it but it doesn't mean that it isn't feasible. the more info we have - the better the predictions :D i hope i don't sound like a weather forecaster. all people are assholes in a way - because habbits make them so. when we change the habbits we stop being assholes. it truly is impossible to consciously control all of our actions so it's ok.

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    6. 27 :) i hope i won't join the lucky club :D

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    7. as long as you don't romanticize choking to death on vomit I think the odds are i your favor :)

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    8. What you're saying is that the "self" is similar to a mathematical function. The function always remains the same, but depending on the inputs (the environmental variables) different outputs will be generated. This means that hypothetically, every action of an entity can be predicted if you have sufficient information about the inputs and outputs (like anon said). Watching the pattern of inputs and outputs allows you to apply inductive reasoning to discover the function itself, as well as what group and sub-groups the function belongs to i.e., linear, quadratic, polynomial, human, ant, cat.

      With regard to sociopaths thinking they are the final authority on their function (self), that's probably true in most cases, but I think that's true of most people regardless of mental health. The only way you're going to think you aren't the final authority on yourself is if you are extremely religious and believe your god is the final authority, or you follow Sartre's version of atheistic existentialism.

      You're also saying that sociopaths are delusional about their function because of their narcissism, and so are less able to predict outcomes in situations where more than one function (entity) interact. Probably true in most cases, but again I don't think that that shortcoming is limited to sociopaths and other disordered individuals.

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    9. agreed, but given sociopaths tend to act impulsively I'm not sure that much rumination interferes with whatever impulse a sociopath may have.

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    10. we are all quite a bit delusional no matter how we'd like to see us and it's a normal thing - we'd be robots if we weren't like this. i think that our part of the population is less delusional. we didn't form our beliefs taking them for granted and without rigorous questioning. some of them might be wrong but we cannot really know if we don't have the sufficient knowledge to do so. here's a list of our biases - it's a lot - just to show how crazy we all are :D most of you probable know it and for those who don't - maybe it helps them to calm a bit when they become aware of doing stuff delusionaly :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

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  13. If there is a recognizable essence that is distinct from other similar beings, there is a self. Whether or not that self is perceived is another matter entirely.

    Amoebas and ants are perceived as generic copies of one another and it is unknown to us whether they are capable of perceiving distinctions.

    The level of knowledge we have about a self is not the issue. The fact that clues can be spotted to predict future behavior is proof that an entity exists.

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    1. So beings that were a product of sexual reproduction would be different from other similar beings by virtue of their genetic code, whereas products of asexual reproduction would not be distinct by virtue of being genetic clones. This would bring us to the strange conclusion that some amoebae have a self, and some don't. Now when we go onto the next step, "The fact that clues can be spotted to predict future behavior is proof that an entity exists", the argument breaks down. The future behavior of all amoebae can be predicted, regardless of whether they belong to the set of distinct amoebae, or the set of indistinct amoebae. I would posit that the presence or absence of a self is not predicated on whether an organism is distinct from other similar organisms.

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    2. This could be purely an argument about semantics. "Self" in the way I am using it is referring to an individual with specific behavior patterns that also exists under the subheading of a larger group (ie- human beings or specific gender is the larger group). "Self" as you describe it seems far more self referential.

      But here's why that feels like bullshit. Sociopaths think they are the final authority on themselves. It is part of the narcissistic illusion of omnipotence. that goes along with numerous personality disorders. But that perception does not equal reality for the rest of the world. It is only true that if a sociopath has cornered "prey" (defined as: an entity that can no longer exercise agency apart from the sociopath) that the sociopath gets to define the parameters of the game that is being played. If "reality" does not exist purely on the sociopath's terms there's a good chance that the other participants view the sociopath in vastly different terms than the sociopath perceives him/herself. That's why I don't find self referential thinking to be the most accurate measure of a situation involving more than one entity.

      Why? Because most of the time the sociopath is interacting with others who have their own agency which hampers the sociopath's capacity to act in an unobstructed fashion. The fact others are capable of interacting doesn't make the agency of the sociopath any less real. It simply limits the capacity for the sociopath to fully express their will. But the sociopath can no longer predict the final outcome of a situation which makes their value judgments far less reliable.

      I would argue that the nature of a sociopath remains constant even as the environment where that sociopath may change. That is a form of "self" even if the sociopath does not recognize it as such. It is characterized by extreme self interest, lack of anxiety, lack of attachment to ideology or goals, and an aptitude for adaptation along with any other incidental traits.

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  14. PLEASE TAKE YOUR TIME TO READ MY SHORT TESTIMONY WHICH MIGHT BE USE FULL TO YOU IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

    Hello

    My name is Helen Morgan. i want to share this short testimony with the good people of this world. It might be useful to you in one way or the other. This is my story.

    My husband think polygamy is not wrong, he has been seeing another girl for the past 1 year now, and i told him he need to stop but he is saying he is in love with her, they have even talked about been together "FOREVER" and also her moving in with us. my husband still loves me, he regret getting into this at the first place, but not willing to break-up with her,he says if he so break-up, there will be no other relationship outside their matrimony. Then i explain and complain to my VERY GOOD FRIEND called MERCY, and she contacted me with one spell caster called DR Aigbehi.this great man told me that my husband was under the lady's spell. But he was able to break the spell and my husband ended the relationship with the lady within 48 hours and he came back to me apologizing for all the thing he did and begged for my forgiveness. I pray that ALMIGHTY GOD will continue to use you to help other people.Friends don't remain in silence because they say "A PROBLEM SHARED IS A PROBLEM HALF SOLVED" But i say a problem shared with this Great man is "A PROBLEM PERMANENTLY SOLVED" because someone like DR Aigbehi has a solution to all your problems, no matter the problem just contact him on his Email:draigbehi1@gmail.com I am living happily now with my husband and my 2 wonderful kids.DR Aigbehi told me i could also contact him on any of the following problems:

    ( 1) want your ex back .

    (2) You always have nightmares.

    (3) To be promoted in your office

    (4) Want a child.

    (5 ) Do you want to be rich.

    (6 ) want to hold your husband / wife to be yours alone forever.

    (7 ) need financial assistance.

    8) Do you want to be in control of you marriage

    9) Want you be attracted to people

    10) Childlessness

    11) NEED A HUSBAND / WIFE

    13) HOW TO WIN YOUR LOTTERY

    14) PROMOTION SPELL

    15) PROTECTION SPELL

    16) BUSINESS SPELL

    17) GOOD JOB SPELL

    18) Cure for any disease.

    Contact DR Aigbehi today and you will be glad you did. Email:draigbehi1@gmail.com

    THANKS FOR YOUR TIME

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    1. good Lord. It sounds like you believe in magic.

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    2. Good Lord sounds like you believe in magic and think it comes from God. Most religions (i believe) would argue that magic, if they believe in it, comes from the Devil and not God (especially magic used this materially).

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    3. good Lord is shorthand for polite guffaw

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  15. sociopathy as well as psychopathy doesn't exist. it's just a way the system is trying to bring you down and keep you there by developing mental illnesses. if we're weak minded they tell us that we're depressed etc. to give us a false reason for our behavior and if we're strong we're called *paths. we're all the same with an exception that those who have a greater knowledge of reality live easier lives if they're smart enough. manipulation in itself if a funny concept because if we clearly look at it we can see that there is no such thing. all interaction is a kind of "manipulation". if you don't feel you don't feel and it's ok - you've made that choice as a way of coping and because you thought it was reasonable - it is. you might be unaware of the moment that this thinking kicked in but it certainly wasn't a birth "defect" - if it would be the consequences would be much bigger. all seekers are unhappy and it's normal because we wouldn't seek if we weren't. we are what we think that we are ... so - do you want to think that you're some kind of a pacient? you're all just fine - doing what everybody does - everything to make yourself happy and it's your right to do so. other people need to start using their brains and stop blaming others for their actions. no one can make someone think something that he doesn't want to think - everybody thinks with their own heads. we'd be autodestructive if we would pursue goals for others and not for ourselves. there is no such thing as selfisness - it's evolution and it's sustainability without which life in general wouldn't exist. it's a natural thing.

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    1. all aggressiveness comes from sadness - you can call it boredom too if you wish. it's the same shit.

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    2. all of YOUR aggression may come from sadness. But it's a leap to assume that about all of the aggression on the planet.

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    3. it might be better if i wrote that it comes from not fitting in - but that's the byproduct.

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    4. I would counter with- some of the most brutal individuals I have encountered operate from the entitlement of existing as the ultimate insider/"chosen one". They are brutal because they can not comprehend that any other life matters as much as their wishes in the moment.

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    5. i don't think that it is by any means "bad" behavior but i don't think it's the best one for them - they probably just aren't aware how they are hurting themselves with such behavior. if they would be - they wouldn't do it. not feeling "bad" emotions can be a bliss - logic tells me so. the general opinion of masses differs ofcourse but this doen't mean that i'm wrong - i'm probably good for myself and i think that everyone should be good for themselves too. i don't see the logic in crying and doing other things which clearly make a man less productive. it's actually funny that people are supposed to feel bad in certain situations and that this behaviour is being encouraged socially. it makes life more complicating for everyone.

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    6. I get that you don't want to make arbitrary moral value judgments, but sometimes people are just fucking stupid and shortsighted. The consequences of people operating from that impulsive frame of reference often outweigh whatever momentary satisfaction was achieved by the actor.



      Am I missing your point? What exactly are you getting at?

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    7. I was thinking that most people who call themselves psychopaths and sociopaths aren't such good "manipulators" as they think they are. Many of them hold false beliefs that they can hold domination through tuff behavior when this same behaviour distances them from the people they want to have a good time with. There is no need to be aggressive to be in control. It is actualy a bad self harming way of staying in control. Being nice is a much better way even when we're having a clash with someone as well as trying to make win-win situations. Others are intolerant to us only if we're intolerant to them. All troubles exist only because people believe in values and a dualistic world - they think and feel dualistic. Values kill everybody. Being a relativist is in my point of view a much less destructive kind of thinking because it breeds far less discomfort which in the end means less violent behaviour :) and not more destructiveness.

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    8. The concept of intelligence is also a intolerant one - it assumes that some people are better then others when they're just different. There is no "better" to me. As far as I'm concerned - everyone is just good as something as much as he spends time with it. I do think that we all have the same mental capacity but our interests differ because we were conditioned differently :)

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    9. Any personal strength, be it intelligence, musical giftedness, beauty, agility or strength begins first as an aptitude. But as someone who has spent my adult life helping others develop their aptitudes I can assure you that not everybody begins at the same starting line. I wish we did, but nobody said life would be fair. Recognizing that is not intolerance, it's accepting that people may be equal in their basic worth and right to human dignity, but have differing levels of aptitude in different traits and that is part of what makes each person so unique.

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    10. I'm one of those people who call themselves sociopaths, and I can tell you that aggression is not own of my forte, I'm more peaceful and forgiving then most of my friends. Most of them always mention how cool headed, easy to get along/ reason with, passive, and how they've never seen me get mad at any one. Violence is rarely an option I consider. I only only resort to violence when someone hits me, and even then I don't hit back unless they hit me three time. Once, I take it, twice I suck it in, three times, no one can blame me for fighting back. As for the inflated ego, that comes with the definition of a sociopath. Sociopath don't go manipulating others by acting tuff or aggressive, that wouldn't be called manipulating but more like forcing or slaving them. You have plan it out, both words and actions, sort of like a chess game where you try to anticipate your opponents move. You set mental traps up, and make them fall into them, that usually how it works. I say all of this even though I rarely manipulate people in such ways, it's too much of a hassle to actually carry out, and I refrain from doing it unless someone is really attacking me, without stopping when I ask(whether physically or not) . Don't think that all sociopaths are like the ones in jail, which are the majority (so not to say all) of the sociopaths studied and interviewed. There are some others in the world who would enjoy living peacefully, and quietly.

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    11. I can't say that I'm 100% correct but as I see it - most "normal" people tend to be extremely delusional and for the "manipulating" part - I truly think that really everybody does it. Some people are just conscious about it and are better at it. It would be crazy not to do it and i don't see no reason to look at it as something negative. Maybe we're like one of those people who didn't believe that the world is flat when everyone thought so and why would that be a "bad" thing? to be honest with you - most of the *paths that i know in my area have tried to control me aggressively and that's why it doesn't work. It was probably because they thought that I was s sheep because of my free nature (I don't act to be smarter then them).

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  16. I'm a foreigner, please bare with my english.
    A while ago I thought that I might be a sociopath too. It turns out that I'm not. However, I'm convinced that one can have a certain background which enhances the skills that you can find in a sociopath.
    I grew up in a difficult environment. My parents didn't respect me, they always wanted something. They controlled my whole life and were filled with constant anger and rage. Sadly, I met the same kind of people in the outside world too (tons of them!). Same shit everywhere, nowhere to hide.

    My brain had to adapt. It learned to block me from experiencing any kind of relations, dependencies and emotions attached to them. Yes, I can talk to you, even laugh, engage in a conversation, be your „friend” or lover. But my inner experience will be very flat or completely empty. That's not my choice, but some kind of inner protection. I can have sex with you, also with an aim for my own selfish pleasure, but even then my brain will block me from experiencing anything. I know what empathy is, but my inability to accept human interactions can cause an absolute indifference to someone's suffering or difficulties. As time goes by, I care less and less. That's my first „skill”. I'm not proud of it. It doesn't give me any satisfaction.

    The second skill is my ability to read mimics and body language. I had to learn it to survive (duh!). I had to predict which actions would tame my parents and other people. I know what to say to make you feel the way you want to feel. I learn your needs by heart and know which strings to pull, so that you could be satisfied and finally leave me alone. In reality, I don't care about you, like at all. My only goal is to get rid of you as quick as possible, so that I can finally rest.
    I guess I'm just a „blocked” empath.

    I could use my inner coldness to destroy people or manipulate them, but I don't feel like doing it. I don't have any interest in it. However, I'm aware of the fact that I could transform into a potential predator at any time. My brain is well prepared for that.

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    1. everyone who turns to destruction turns so because he isn't aware of the selfdestructive effects of doing so. it can be good - but for how long? "bad" thoughts lead to other "bad" thoughts and so one can find himself very easily running in the same circle again and again without making any progress in life and we all make changes to make life easier for us so that wouldn't be very smart :) sorry for my bad english too - i'm a foreigner too. i've just started writing comments on this blog today but i read a lot of posts on a daily basis. probably because i like to read some well written stuff which actually makes some sense.

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    2. Meg-
      You are just exhausted by repeated situations where the people in your life have not reinforced that agreeable behavior leads to positive results. You have adapted to your environment. That's a sign of intelligence, not pathology.

      You are not a sociopath. You have simply learned to compartmentalize and observe your emotions. The biggest concern I have about you is that you will continue experiencing overwhelming trauma that turns your insides to a ball of hate.

      But the very things you describe- (knowing how to interact without feeling to survive a situation) strike me as adaptations that are very useful. The world you were born into required a certain craftiness to survive. Being intelligent and resourceful, you acquired that craftiness so you can navigate a world where those who are supposed to nurture and "have your back" are not acting in your best interest. It is very unfortunate that that is the world you were born into and that is not your fault. It's just bad luck.

      Here's the good news. You have learned some wisdom about human nature alongside the hardship you've experienced. My hope for you is that you will not conclude that all of the human race is bad. I hope your understanding of how people work cause you to guard your heart until you have navigated a path to a community that is more supportive of the gentler side of your nature. You might ask- "what gentler side?"

      The very fact you can observe the hardening of your own heart and perceive it with a level of concern suggests a level of idealism that is not consistent with sociopathy.

      My hunch about you is this. You are smart and sensitive. Most of the world you were born into perceives those aptitudes as weaknesses. They're not. You just need to find different individuals to build your life going forward with.

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    3. Anonymous and Machiavellianempath, thank you for your replies.

      I have to say that I'm astonished by the possibilites of human brain. I discovered this particular adaptation during the last 2 years of psychotherapy.

      It's like your brain sees danger everywhere and tries to read and predict everything. It was very helpful when I was a child, but now it's more like a problem than a survival tool. I'm an adult, so I don't have to be afraid anymore, I can choose friends and environments, but the brain still lives in the past. And it literally blocks EVERYTHING, even the good stuff. You want to go to the forest, admire a landscape, but you don't feel anything. You want to eat something delicious, but then the taste is flat or barely noticeable. It can piss you off! ;)

      - Brain! Stop! What are you doing?? It's just a freaking lunch!
      - Shhhh, we're at war.... Don't worry, I will save us...

      That's why I thought that maybe I lacked that „conscience”, but it turns out that I'm simply blocked. I hope to calm this down in the future.

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    4. you are probably a person with many interests which differ from the interests of the mass and if you aren't scientifically preety with attributes like having a golden ratio face or you're being overweight etc. as well as if you don't have a lot of things to show of like business success people won't accept you or even listen to you because you won't possess none of the "qualities" they are looking for them as well. they need to think that you're "better" in some ways then they are. if you add smarts to this whole equation they will be aggressive towards you - not necessarily physically but definitely on a verbal level which will only build frustrations inside of yourself and you'll consciously or unconsciously react back to them probably the same way. my story is preety much identical to yours but as i got better at deciphering my own emotions and thinking process i saw that i did lack some things from the very start - affective empathy if there is such a thing. this made me think that the people with whom i was in a relationship were psychopaths/sociopaths until i figured out that i had some problems that i just weren't aware of. these people later called me with the same words - and maybe they were right. i think that song describes us really well - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfuWXRZe9yA
      have a nice day!

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    5. That must pretty annoying and inconvenient. A sociopath might not care so much but, at least you can appreciate nice things.

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    6. everybody cares only for things that he wants to care :) and there is nothing wrong with that. if truly unemotional people would exist they would be dead because a thought without an emotion doesn't exist - they are the same thing. we don't care for the things that we choose not to care and sometimes we choose not to care with a reason. to me the terms psychopath and sociopath bare no meaning as well as others too. i believe that believing them is in a kind of a way the same as having some religious beliefs. they are "right" until we find a lot of flaws in them and this part of psychology which deals with mental illnesses has way too many of them. they are producing patients in a kind of a way. why should it be "bad" to be different - especially if our actions aren't hurting ourselves and why should it be "bad" to think as well as not limiting ourselves in our knowledge by branding some knowledge as "bad". as i see it - there is no "bad" or "evil" knowledge - there's only knowledge and ignorance. it's impossible to be destructive if we aren't autodestructive too.

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    7. it's obvious that every one of us on this site is in some ways autodestructive. if we were perfect - we wouldn't be here talking and looking for some answers :)

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    8. No one said it was bad or evil to be a sociopath, simply different. You have to acknowledge the fact that evidence of "irregular" brain activities have been found in people labeled sociopaths. Maybe not all since it would be impossible to analyze all of them but that's one hint pointing to some sort of difference

      Plus with this being a sociopath blog, I doubt any sociopaths can make judgement calls on whats good or bad.

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    9. i think that a "good" definition of good would be socially accepted for the social people among us but for those who aren't it can be anything that's pleasing to them :) it's a very relative and subjective thing and as there is no way to be objective about it. there is evidence - but isn't it possible that this brain activity is different only because we're a little numb? i'm sure that if we'd change our opinions we'd see different brain scans too but i don't see no reason to change from being a thinking person to being a ignorant one. being numb is simply a defensive mechanism.

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    10. I get where you going, and yah it makes sense. Different way to process thoughts, different brain activities. Although I don't know if I would limit it to just a defense mechanism. Definitely an adaptation though, whether it be defensive or not.

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    11. i agree, that would be a better way to put it.

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  17. Every solution is contained in how we describe the problem.
    Ultimately, our only problem is that we die, which in fact, shouldn't be
    a problem, because "death solves everything."
    My mental state determines my reactions to "problems." What is a
    terrible problem for one person, is met with indifference by another.
    We ALL have installed "preferences." We "hope" for a specific "outcome."
    Many of the things we hope for are actually self harming, but we can't
    see that. Because we can't discern what is TRUELY helpful to us, as
    opposed to what is self harming, we commit slow sucide. It's the "frog in
    boiling water sinero. "Put a frog in boiling water, and he jumps right out.
    Raise the temperature slowly, and he roasts."
    'Liberal" "Conservative" "Black" or "White" people's primary and universal
    fear is DEATH. The "little" death you feel when "your" soccer team is
    ousted from the finals, should not be confused with the "big" death that
    awaits us all and would solve all our problems anyway.

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  18. Tii, you said you don't understand why people care whether or not you truly care or love them, if you treat them like someone who cares and loves them would. Why should it matter if your actions are beneficial to them?

    This is in my mind the most relevant and fundamental difference between a sociopath and a neuro-typical person. And it is this difference I have to constantly battle to remain “friends” with my sociopath friend. I have to remind myself how much else he brings in my life, besides a non-existent emotional connection. I have to remember how much benefit I derive from the friendship.

    So yes, better to not out yourself... I do not think neuro-typicals are ready to accept you the way you are. It is too difficult. It is too much of a paradigm shift. Do be careful about the questions you ask others, if you do not want to out yourself. I bet your friend will always remember you asked the question. If she is smart, she will put two and two together eventually.

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    1. OldAndWise,
      So a mutual emotional connection counts more than the benifits derived from the relationship. I guess I'll just have to take it as it is. As for my friends, yes I try to be careful, although I sometimes feel like even when I hint it they don't want to believe it. I've gone as far as to ask "What would you think if you found out I was a sociopath?" The answer completely disregarded the question. "You? No, never! You're too nice/kind/peaceful/ forgiving to be a sociopath." My friends have definitely realized there's something different about me, when introducing me they've joke about me being a robot or alien or having a stone heart, the latest was "He's really cool, but don't get to attached or fall in love. The planet he comes from have evolved passed such feelings." I think they just don't want to associate it with the word "sociopath" because of the negative connotation it carries

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    2. Hi again, Tii. Good to see your friends know you well! Maybe I will use that same introduction line in the future. LOL

      Thank you and Dev for giving such an articulate description of the manipulation process. And thank you to Dr. G. for prompting you. It is uncanny how much of my friend I recognized in it. He has used or talked about all those methods in the past. BTW he uses seduction techniques on both male and female, straight or homosexual. Also, you do realize it would be next to impossible for a neuro-typical to use some of those techniques unless they really loathe the target, right?

      I thought some more about the emotional connection comment I made yesterday. I am at the other end of the spectrum from you; I am an over-sensitive and over-feeling person. You use your intellect to express emotions, I have to use my intellect to tone them down. Not easy. It remains a work in progress… So my perception of what a friend is may be tainted by this. I have a very narrow definition of what I call friends. Meaning that I have to like them, trust them and feel comfortable with them to a certain (high) degree before they become friends in my eyes. (I won’t call somebody a friend just because they won the lottery.) Other neuro-typical people may include in their definition of friends people that they have met the previous week, or people that may be useful to them socially or professionally. In those cases, the emotional connection is not as important as the way people behave (in front of you and behind your back).

      What I was talking about was long term friendships. If you invest yourself emotionally in a friendship, you expect the other person to do the same. It is very disquieting when the same level of emotional commitment is not met (either your friend likes you too much, or the other way round, you like them more than they like you). This is, in my opinion, when friendships break down. I believe this is what your friend meant when she said that she would “demote” to a friendly acquaintance a person that does not reciprocate feelings, that does not truly care of love her. In my opinion, she might have known you were talking about yourself and that is why she changed the subject so quickly.

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    3. I' ve thought of trying to seduce a straight guy, just to see if I could. Never actually done it though. Homosexuals on the other hand seemed drawn to me whether I try or not.

      As for friends, the one that trust me enough, and who I've "flashed" my real self to enough to realize that they don't mind are thr ones I call friends. I don't generally trust people, so I can't say I really trust any of my friends. I know based on their personalities that I can rely on them for almost anything, but people make unconscious mistakes occasionally so trust still isn't there. I don't betray people who trust me or call me friend though so people usually call me a good friend.

      I guess I can understand, although they only way I can relate would be, when you receive an unfair trade, or are conned in an exchange.
      As for my friend, maybe she did. Like I said they all know something's different.

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  19. Just to clear this up, Anti-social, Sociopathic, Psychopathic and Whatever-the-fuck else, are simply terms or labels to describe someone who has an *aggressive* personality.

    That is all.

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    1. I'm not aggressive... not really. Still sociopathic though.

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    2. aggressive? not sure if I agree. maybe predatory...

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    3. the only thing on this world that can irritate me to an aggressive level where it's really hard for me to be calm is a needy narcissist who isn't smart enough to be polite. other than that ... i'm a preety calm predator.

      Delete
    4. *pretty - damn it :D impulsiveness sure can make us do a lot of grammar mistakes

      Delete
    5. Seems like you type aggresively, maybe Anon 1:09 isn't too wrong after all XD

      Delete
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