Monday, February 4, 2019

Diagnosing Logan and Jake Paul as sociopaths?

I was aware of this at the time they came out but didn't have anything to really say. But I stumbled upon this article by Self , "What Mental Health Experts Want You to Know Before Watching the Buzzy New YouTube Series ‘The Mind of Jake Paul’,: that interviewed some of our friend researchers that I thought had some good information :

Although the word pops up in everyday conversation, it is not actually a medical term, Steven Siegel, M.D., professor and chairman of psychiatry and the behavioral sciences at the Keck School of Medicine of USC, tells SELF.

“We try to avoid the term because it just doesn’t have any formal meaning. It’s a colloquial word and it’s not used consistently,” Scott Lilienfeld, Ph.D., professor of psychology at Emory University, tells SELF.

“It has no clinical content,” Ronald Schouten, M.D., J.D., director of the Law & Psychiatry Service of the Massachusetts General Hospital and associate professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, tells SELF. “It’s used as an epithet.”

As Dr. Siegel explains, sociopath is generally a label that some people give someone they believe is a bad person.

Sociopathy is really an outdated, slippery term for what is known today as antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), according to the American Psychological Association (APA). As Morton notes in episode two, “The Dark Side of Jake Paul,” ASPD is the technical term most clinicians prefer to use today. (The terms are still sometimes used interchangably, according to the National Institutes of Health).

“Antisocial personality disorder is psychiatry's way of trying to classify people without using the pejorative or derogatory terms,” Dr. Siegel explains. “It’s a way of commenting on a pervasive pattern of behavior that spans someone's adult life and that may inform why they experience life the way they do.”
“personality disorders are notoriously difficult to diagnose,” Katherine Dixon-Gordon, Ph.D., a clinical psychologist and assistant professor in the department of Psychological and Brain Sciences at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, tells SELF. “This diagnosis is a really complex thing to undertake, and requires these long interviews.”

Even having all the relevant information doesn’t always ensure a reliable diagnosis. “They are so complicated that even among psychologists and psychiatrists, we can’t agree on how to diagnose personality disorders,” Dixon-Gordon says. “Even when we undertake these incredibly complicated interviews with people, experts don't always agree.” She explains that two well-qualified clinicians could evaluate the same person and not necessarily come away with the same assessment.

In reality, the behaviors some experts may link to ASPD span a spectrum. “All of these personality disorders describe being at an extreme end of a spectrum of normal human behaviors,” Dr. Siegel says. Dixon-Gordon adds, “By definition, [personality disorders] represent maladaptive variance of normative personality functioning. So often that line between what’s adaptive and what’s maladaptive and what’s normative and non-normative is a difficult one to find.”

In episode two, Morton cites a statistic that one in 25 people is a sociopath. (This stat is arguably outdated and was derived from several studies dating back to the ‘90s.) While there are not many reliable epidemiological studies on how prevalent ASPD is—although several experts noted that figure sounds high—Lilienfeld argues that the stat is misleading for a different reason.

“Saying ‘one in 25’ implies that [people with ASPD] are different in kind, rather than in degree, from the rest of us,” Lilienfeld says. “In my view, there’s no real distinction in nature that clearly tells you [if somebody has ASPD or not]. There’s no categorical cutoff. It’s almost like asking, ‘How many people are tall?’ Depends on where you draw the cutoff for tall.”

Dixon-Gordon makes a similar argument. “In the same way that the cutoff for whether or not you have high cholesterol changes from year to year, these [diagnostic cutoffs] change,” she explains.

These complicated, nebulous aspects of personality disorders mean that attempting to diagnose them even in a professional setting requires extreme care and caution. “All of these things are reasons why diagnosis is so, so nuanced and complex and contextual,” Dixon-Gordon says, “and really requires [...] not jumping to conclusions.”

Interestingly some of the researchers quoted worry that the webseries is trying to glamourize what they describe as a "dangerous" disorder. But maybe watching were concerned about the opposite, that it was attempting to demonize and stigmatize. So much so that Shane Dawson included an apology at the beginning of episode 3:

“I do actually want to apologize because there was some backlash from people feeling offended and feeling like I was making a horror movie out of an illness or a disorder. And I 100% understand [...] to treat a person like a scary monster is like, not cool, and I shouldn’t have done that. So I apologize for that genuinely.”


  1. My sociofriend asked me:

    "Am I an asshole?“


    «You are the biggest asshole I have ever met.“

    And he replies, animated:

    «Well, if he is a dick, then I am going to be an asshole.“

  2. I'm comfortable saying **-* differs in kind rather than degree.

    Sociopathy seems to me a gestalt, one of several stable profiles of the human condition.

    Chaos theory (and I need to read more about this) tells us non-linear systems such as the human organism, experience divergence and convergence. A starting point doesn't give us predictability about future states and similar states emerge from different starting points.

    There are a limited number of plant formations that emerge on snow capped equatorial mountains in different parts of the world. The plants are unrelated but their forms are similar: complying with the four or five forms that happen to survive those conditions.

    1. But that doesn't make him a monster.

      Office manager who worked with him for 5 years once said: "He's lovely but high maintenance... He looks after himself"

      That's a great characterisation of him.

  3. From the article:
    "At one point in the conversation, Morton says, “The main thing [sociopaths] want is power and money”"

    That's a pretty silly generalisation. Money and power might appeal but those are not necessarily the only drivers for sociopaths. **-* wants to be a good dad and likes coding stuff... That's where he spends most of his time.

    I also strenuously disagree that (paraphrasing) "anyone who has lied has had a sociopathic moment". Goodness me, how completely lacking in understanding of any social organism. What do people think make-up is? Botox? Breast enhancements, all the tricks men have for convincing women of their status and ability to provide? The human brain was designed to convince.

    Trickery and competition goes on at all stages of life for all species. Eg: some male flies detach their penis in the female's vagina to prevent other males copulating with that female. Sick animals even divert energy resources into displays to make them *look* physically fit rather than completely focusing on healing.

    Behaviours are about copies of genres on the next generation.

    Man, these academics need to read more broadly. They also need to immediately stop conflating traits and states. Jeepers. Kevin Dutton has a lot to answer for in popularising that ridiculous notion of the trait scales mixing desk. Very poor science.

    News flash, academics. Humans are animals trying to secure copies of genes in the next generation. Lying is not inherently sociopathic; it's a cheating strategy among a really excited and creative range of cheating strategies employed by every living organism on the planet.

    And maybe these academics should spend some time with actual sociopaths to figure out what the real differences are. Lying, lack of empathy, guiltlessness are at the surface of a much more complex and actually cohesive pattern.

    What the world needs as an ethology of psychopathy; that is, looking at the function of behaviours and not merely at the behaviours themselves. It's the purpose of the behaviours that differs from the broader population, as well as the degree and context of the behaviours.

    Essential reading: Robert Sapolsky. Anything by that dude. He's got his head screwed on and looks at data.

    Get data. Then model.

    1. "it's a cheating strategy among a really *diverse* and creative range of cheating strategies employed by every living organism on the planet."

    2. A big difference is context for behaviours.

      We don't tend to emphasise with people we don't trust. We do empathise with people who are close to us.

      That sociopaths don't surprises us to the point of shock. It feels so cruel. We love them, we thought they loved us. Why are they being so cruel?

      Same with lying.

      Same with lack of trust.

      Same with ruthlessness.

      These behaviours happen out of "normal" social context with sociopaths and that's what appalls people. We don't understand.

      It's like violence. People don't hate violence - they pay good money to see it. We hate violence in the "wrong" context.

    3. I like the last paragraph about violence, North. I've never noticed that but it is kind of true.

  4. North,

    You have spent countless hours analyzing you sociopathic boyfriend.

    Perhaps it is time to shine your investigative light inward.

    A few weeks back, I mentioned you may be in an abusive relationship. I will go further than that. Have you considered you might be suffering from something close to the Stockholm syndrome?

    Please spend the time to draw the parallels. You owe it to yourself.

    1. Who are you and what do you want?



    2. I think the Stockholm syndrom is only for people that were abducted

    3. You probably know who I am.

      What do I want? That gave me pause.

      I could lie to myself and to you and say all I want is for you to be OK. But there is more.

      What you write is very insightful. I understand and can relate to what you are saying about sociopathy. Not many people have the patience or the intellect to excavate the truth.

      I can also relate to the « love » that emanates from a very strenuous relationship. Not a bad feeling really. It is M.E. that actually uttered those words when I met her. They make sense.

      So I think what I want is understand myself through your words.

    4. o there's a story about a man who visits a doctor. "Doctor, my brother is mad! He thinks he's a chicken!" The doctor says "Right. Why don't you report him?" The man replies "because I need the eggs."

      There are realities we create in relationship dynamics. The dynamics are not all good, not all bad. We accept the uncomfortable parts because the good outweighs the bad. We want the eggs.

      This is always the case. Humans don't stick around for "all bad", regardless of what labels people throw at things.

      So the question is always "what are our eggs?"

      For me, **-* circumvented my sturdy defences and somehow with him, I started to feel, to decompress, to become myself. Those were my eggs and sure as hell that was worth a lot. A real lot. And it took me however long, maybe 18 months to figure even that much out. I didn't have antibodies to his strange being and there was a part of me that responded deeply and instantly to his innocence and his boyishness. That part of me trusted him more than the rest of me, which had acted as oppressor. Now I have integrated that part of myself and have sketched out and coloured in the lines of my being. I feel and am not afraid of feeling. I go straight.

      I still love him. And that's ok. He saw me and I saw him too.

      "It's time to warn King Lune."
      Shasta's heart fainted at these words for he felt he had no strength left. And he writhed inside at what seemed the cruelty and unfairness of the demand. He had not yet learned that if you do one good deed your reward usually is to be set to do another and harder and better one. But all he said out loud was:
      "Where is the King?"
      The Hermit turned and pointed with his staff. "Look," he said. "There is another gate, right opposite to the one you entered by. Open it and go straight ahead: always straight ahead, over level or steep, over smooth or rough, over dry or wet. I know by my art that you will find King Lune straight ahead. But run, run: always run.
      ~ CS Lewis, The Horse and his Boy

      If you don't know, only go straight - don't know. "Don't know" mind cuts through thinking. It is before thinking... before words ~Seung Sahn

      The funny thing is sometimes don't know mind is the only place one can act from with a sociopath. Strange things happen, but they are the best things.

      start by loving what you can ~ Alan Watts, paraphrased

    5. I guess you are also interested in the question of abuse.

      From the start, I've told him I expect fairness. I have to stand up and actively negotiate that sometimes. He wants what he wants when he wants it and other considerations don't necessarily enter his head.

      And sometimes he's not fair.

      But he makes it up to me or he doesn't get what he wants. Yeah, it's transactional but that's really what we're dealing with. I don't think it matters really.

      I don't think he's out to hurt me. We're evenly matched.

      Tony and Carol: video 2min 21s

    6. Yes.

      From a purely external perspective, your relationship has been what most would call abusive.

      It will take you a while to realize, I think. Years maybe. I wish you the best.

    7. And no, I get it that he is not out to get you. But that does not make it right.

      We (using our societal norms) pardon people when they truly realize they have done something wrong.

      It is a journey, and one that a sociopath may never be able to accompmish in their life time. This is why they have personal rules. I respect that. But we also have to look after our own self.

    8. Lol, I thought you wanted a view of your own relationship. Don't judge mine. I'm not interested in your perspective on the slightest because unlike you, I'm not conflicted about my choices.

    9. After all these years of trying to unsettle me, you should now accept your abject failure. It's frankly laughable. I feel some very slight pity... But only for a few seconds. Everyone chooses their own psychological fate and you don't seem to want to pick up the key to the prison you've created for yourself. Instead, you create a clone army that clearly gives you only cold comfort.

      Don't bother communicating with me again. You're not worthy of my time.

    10. Athena Walker, Ghost of QuoraFebruary 13, 2019 at 3:58 PM

      I don't think North's relationship is abusive, though she has abused us terribly by leaving Quora and (worst of all) depriving us of her writings. If I'd known I would've cut and paste them all her posts, to document the passage of a brilliant mind

      well, at least I recorded/recovered all our private chats :) something to remember her by

      I bet her leaving was somehow a function of that dim fellow Anon in the comment above accusing her of tolerating an abusive relationship. Where do you get off, people, depriving us of our North? Our own True North.

      Her relationship is no more abusive than a chess match is abusive. If one player happens to be better at the game, then inevs the matter looks like 'abuse' on the losing side to the outsider who knows fuck all about the game. But it is entirely and completely missing the point. it is reductive, offensive, and a little boring, actually, to reduce the entire matter to 'abuse'.

      anyway, all the losers won, and we lost us our North.

      Hope you're happy, nitwits

    11. Athena why did you answer the same question over and over again on quora? Wasn't that really boring?

    12. Athena Walker, Ghost of QuoraFebruary 14, 2019 at 1:43 PM

      fair question. I am actually operating at different levels of profundity, but few can pierce the level of sophistication that I operate under, since I purposefully hide it under repetitive motifs and predictable responses. Only a few adept individuals have pierced this superficial layer and really get what I'm about. We all then have a good laugh at everyone's expense.

      What I am after is sort of a meta-Quora experience, where my interaction summed to the larger interaction creates an ever-cyclical system of response, counter response, ad infinitum. A giant symphony of Psychopathic Quora, if you will.

      I also provide the structural backbone under which the whole PP site operates, something like the Basso Continuo in a Baroque piece of music. Sure, by itself, the bass can be pretty uninteresting to listen to, but without it the whole composition degrades to a cacophony of meaningless and random noises.

      But we have, as I have stated, lost one of our most precious treble parts, something that I always imagined as sounding something between a flute and a clarinet.

      I have come to bring the straying lamb back to the fold, but am gutted that it is proving so tough.

      Come on North! Whaddaya say? Still waiting for a response

      yours utterly,
      Ghost of Quora Past

    13. Controlled and controlling.

      Call it what you will, it remains artiface and therefore of zero interest.

      People want help for pain on Quora, not truth. They want your fairy tales. Disillusioning them is pointless - they are not people I am interested in holding commerce with. And clearly there's nothing to learn in that slough of despond.

      As I've mentioned before, I have my own trajectory and purposes. See ya!

    14. Athena Walker, Ghost of QuoraFebruary 14, 2019 at 5:18 PM

      yeah I know they're a bunch of wankers on there, but i really miss talking to ya! And reading what you write. I can come on here and only get 1/2 of that accomplished.

      I also hope you saved a lot of it bc a lot of it was bloody good.

      And I was also wanting to know why you left. It seems like there must have been a specific reason

      The Slough of Despond... have you read the Pilgrim's Progress? A really interesting look at psychospiritual dynamics, from what I recall. YOu can lift away the Christian elements if they don't appeal.

      Halfway thru R D Laing. It's the longest it's taken me to read a really short book

      also got a bit into the Hyatt book but it did not appeal. I still will try to read it because I guess it's supposed to have something on there

      See ya!

    15. **-* was overseas for a month and I took the opportunity to focus on other things. I enjoyed not being there so didn't go back. Coursera, more mountain biking, work.

      Hyatt is difficult to read. The delivery method is part of the message; typical sociopathic meta style.

      I used some scraper tool to download my content from Quora but haven't looked at. Answering questions is constraining.

    16. yeah I went thru the same thing - took off a month or more and it really IS enjoyable not being there ... but what happens to me is I go thru a procrastinating funk and then the cesspool calls me back. It's a tar baby, that place

      i found Hyatt a little try-hard and got lost on the food analogies and I have to say I do sort of reject the fundamental premise

      I'm not certain I would consider Hyatt a psychopath - to me he seems possessed by an inescapable self-loathing which he projects onto all humankind and the psychopathic stance is posited as both a byproduct of his having bought into the myth of the supremacy of the individual (what a load of bollocks) and an innoculation against his own low self-esteem

      or maybe he's just capitalizing on others' confirmed self-loathing by promising them some Ubermensch's reward if only they'll succumb to these feelings and the obvious nihilism it creates, instead of fighting them like every other self help nostrum out there

      in that case he is most certainly a psychopath (was). And fulfilling his own dictum: "give them what they want... so they'll destroy themselves with it"

      a third view i had was that he was looking for some shock-therapy style of thing to shake said self-loathers from the shackles of self-helpism - but looking at his biography I'm not inclined to believe that

      maybe I should read it more to see if it becomes clearer

      what was it again that you got from it?

    17. The main thing for me was simply that there are completely different ways of seeing the world and being within it. That's why the content matters less to me. The key things for me were:

      * We all have things at stake, all the time. We are always consuming each other. From a purely material perspective, all our interactions have elements of resource and/or status contention and preservation.

      * Culture is a huge influence. We can play with that though. You can experiment with your experience of it. I did one of his exercises which consisted of reading every day for ten minutes without trying to understand anything. I noticed a strange effect. I would suit in meetings at work and instead of immersing in the social current - playing within the dynamics of the group - I could sit outside the dynamic and simply observe. That was very useful.

      * "Become who you are, there are no guarantees." This is cool. Letting go of judgement and constraints on self was pretty radical for me. We're taught so much to fear doing the "wrong thing". When I considered "wrong" to be someone's idea, and just trust that my own being is required to handle situations, it actually freed me to learn by experience, which is always the best way. That's how to increase capability, target than by forcing or by following rules.

      I came across him at a time in my life when his style was very useful. I can't remember the stuff I wrote about his writings and psychopathy. Blame avoidance, word salad rationalisations (argument-"winning"), considering others as corrupt, that sort of thing seen to come close to the themes I've noticed with **-* and more generally, but they are in very raw form with Hyatt.

    18. *trust that my own being is equipped to handle situations

    19. whoa, I really like that culture - read everything like you don't understand thing. I love shit like that. I'll probably keep reading then in case there's more stuff like that

      that last one is also pretty useful. I feel i kinda live my life like that alrady but i defo could use more thinking/being outside the box


      Here (approx 10 mins), Hyatt is describing how to identify our own conditioning, ie the interaction of our genetic heritage and our early environment resulting in our behavioral patterns.

      So this is basically the process I went through (without seeing that video) when I learnt about schizoid personality disorder. Quora was helpful, some credit there. Same with depersonalisation - derealisation: knowing the characteristics, identifying them within myself allowed me to get to the root of some stuff and that opens choices. The fixed action patterns (that's an ethological term, not from Hyatt, but very useful) break down and other possibilities emerge.

      That's why I'm done with Quora. It was more to do with my personal journey than anything on the psychopathy front, as I noted to K@ previously.

    21. **-* has been very helpful. I think there are posts on this blog concerning psychopathy and SPD being opposites. I wrote a lot on Quora about foundational similarities of counter-dependence (indomitability even) stemming from lack of trust, probably fluidity of presentation (masking) and to a degree, limited emotional range and preference for rationality.

      **-* is less robotic than I am, has a values (skewed!!) bias, but he's also cold, and I can be "hot".

      The key difference between us is that he has an acute preference for action and understands his agency and this is what I've learnt from him. Where I have tended to walk away and find my own route around a socially-imposed barrier, he has shown me how to take such direct action. I'm in a "shark school" work environment - I've had to learn quickly. He immediately, naturally, points out the most ruthless solutions. What I'm learning is to operationalize that in ways that suit me. I go straight.

      I have a good friend who has also coached me in these matters and he actually agrees with **-*'s suggestions and explains then in ways that make sense to my nature. My friend taught me there's a difference between being defensive and being protective of self. The protective mindset is proactive, anticipating that others can and will be dangerous and taking sensible precautions. This was a massive realisation for me so my friend has been a big factor in helping me translate **-*'s perspective into tools that work for me.

      I understand it now with a rugby metaphor. Teammates are also competitors.

      I think this applies everywhere, and especially with a sociopath, it applies even in an intimate relationship.

      I know how to compete. I am comfortable with competition and have skills that can be repurposed from rugby to work.

      So yeah, **-* is still interesting to me but the world just got a bit bigger and more accessible.

    22. I don't typically write about this stuff here because it's off topic. That's the story. I'm excited about what comes next.

  5. They advised me one site for working on the Internet class play casino slots I tried a couple of days until everything is fine.

  6. they just high on money and fame

  7. I've noticed something about **-* and I'm wondering if other sociopaths have similar behaviours.

    Sometimes he will be a bit restless and will poke at me a little. I know when my little sons act that way, giving them attention usually calms them down until they can express the thing that's really on their minds. It's a big part of a parent's job to teach children how to make sense of their own internal states.

    So it was very easy for me to try that approach with **-*.

    If he bugs me, I stop him and ask if he needs some attention. Then I'll cuddle up to him and eventually he'll start talking about whatever is on his mind.

    There's a lot about relating to **-* that depends on intuition that's very similar to a mother's intuition. This is what works best and makes life easy.

    Does attention help when you feel restless? You're answers will help me place my experiences with **-* in context. Thanks.


  8. بعد التحيه يسير شركة شام ان تعلن لجميع عملائها بمدينة الخبر الكرام بمناسبة قدوم فصل الصيف عن افضل عروض تنظيف وصيانة برك السباحه باحدث الطرق وافضل الاساليب وذلك من خلال فرعها بمدينة الخبر
    شركة صيانة وتنظيف مسابح بالخبر
    والذي توفر شركة شام من خلاله لجميع اهالي الخبر خدمات المسابح بكل انواعها من تنظيف وصيانه وترميم باعلى جوده وبافضل الاسعار ، فلا تتردد عزيزي العميل واطلبنا الان لتحصل على ما تتمناه من خدمات لنصلك في الحال .

  9. Woman of Many Faces (WOMF),

    You're seeking answers but aren't ready to hear them. I don't take your attacks personally and you asked for my help so here goes, in more direct fashion this time. It will be harder for you to read.

    Everything you've targeted about me and my relationship with **-* is a concern for you in your life. Operating from that principle:

    ** Is your sociofriend abusive? **
    I think of you are asking this question, you feel abused. Sociopaths will take every inch. But here's a secret: dominance games only occur when power is close to equal. Don't be fooled by their bravado. Just say no. Stand for what you want. As I've been saying for years, they are mostly bluff.

    ** Do you have Stockholm Syndrome **
    I wouldn't have the first clue. What I see is a woman who doesn't directly express what she wants, employing endless indirect mechanisms.

    It's up to you to secure what you need on life. If you don't act directly, you'll never get what you need. It's as simple as that.

    The other thing I see is deep tension. You love him but feel abused. The classic cognitive dissonance. You seek to resolve it by creating an army of followers who also praise the virtues of the psychopath as emotionless, care-free, rational Batman-like heroes. Athena is a projection of your fantasies and her followers justify why you are staying while in pain.

    But it's not working, is it, because you're stalking me for an answer.

    Here's your answer. It's really simple. You love him for a reason that's more important than the pain.

    Find that reason. You're gonna have to be brave. Like facing any fear, you have to look out right in the face. But you want the answer or you wouldn't be behaving in this perturbed way.

    So enough of directing your pain at me and **-*. That's unacceptable and you must stop that immediately. Address your pain and live your life.

    You're extremely intelligent and clearly a capable person so just decide what you want in your life and make every little step in accordance with that.

    And please know that you don't need to be afraid of your feelings anymore. They are just messengers. Let their energy play out, even the very scary ones have a finite course. Then you see clearly and know yourself fully.

    1. Don't forget sociopaths have an emotional age of about four. They demand things and are selfish like a four year old. You wouldn't countenance a for year old's tantrum would you? Teach him to ask you nicely. It's very simple: don't give him what he wants until he behaves. They are fine with it but you must be clear and firm and show them a path to what they want.

      Greenberg write something very useful in that she said we enter with relationships with people who have the same level of emotional maturity. There's hope but you have to stand your ground and become who you really are.

      It's completely in your hands.

    2. Athena Walker, Ghost of QuoraFebruary 14, 2019 at 1:49 PM

      woo hoo! I'm a projection of someone's fantasies? Hot dog!

      and I didn't even need a pin-up avatar

      just goes to show...

  10. Further to my point on an earlier blog post about lying not being inherently "sociopathic"...

    Ted Ed: The sexual deception of orchids

    Deception is part and parcel of ccompetition.Lying does not mean a human is "having a sociopathic moment". It means they are competing for resources by employing a somewhat risky social strategy.

    Lying is of course more regularly used by sociopaths because they don't trust. Can't trust, so they seek advantage.

    And when you don't allow them to take advantage, you get complaints that you can't be trusted. But there's never any trust. They only feel comfortable when they have what they perceive as advantage.


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