Friday, March 3, 2017

Playing a trump card

A reader recently explained why he bothers staying within the lines:

I find it strange, as I do not hide I am a sociopath. People ask why I am the way I am, and I tell them. I get the response aren't you afraid people will try ruining you?

My response is always the same. I am high functioning because it supports the lifestyle I have. If someone takes that life away from me I don't have to care anymore. Do you want to be the person I focus on first?

It makes me laugh a little to read that because there was this guy in the first couple years who found out who I was. I had found out who he was first, back when I wasn't deluged with emails every day (sorry for the late/nonexistent replies everyone!!!) I just googled his email and got a few hits for hacker forums, etc. So I mentioned it to him in my reply, not to freak him out, but just because I found his situation to be interesting and wanted to understand it better. Whatever his diagnosis was (I think he finally settled on schizoid), there was a bit of paranoia in there, and he made it his life's mission for the next 9 months to figure out who I was -- tit for tat. He was successful, not because of anything I did but because of a little slip-up that someone that I knew did in a comment on the blog. After that, he was about two steps away from blackmailing/extorting me. One of the smaller reasons for doing the book and trying to stay in a "glass closet", in which a lot more people would know my identity, was getting out from under this guy's thumb. And sure enough, this was his response after the book came out:

I see you have been outed. It was difficult at times, but I kept your identity a secret for a very long time. Please, return the favor by deleting all emails to/from me, if you would be so kind. If and when your new-found popularity causes problems for you, I would prefer to have as little involvement as possible.

I replied "I have no idea what you're afraid of. ;)" That's the problem with secrets and shaming as leverage -- people only take the hit once, and if they manage to make a comeback, you're in a very vulnerable position. 


  1. Making a way forward includes not only secrets but mitigating what happens when the secrets come out.


  2. Hacker forums -- ha. He clearly wasn't very good; your WHOIS on this site linked almost directly to you for quite a while.

    It took him nine months and a slip-up, but it should have taken him nine minutes.

    Why is it that the loudest voices always bring the weakest threats to bear?


    1. Hello there k.b.!!!! I miss your posts about drug fueled orgies and that time you whispered in that mans ear "They dont respect you" LMAO!

      Please post more you are funny and add light to SociopathWorld!!!!


  3. "It was difficult at times, but I kept your identity a secret for a very long time."

    How was it difficult? It's called not saying anything. I guess shutting the Hell up is a superpower.

  4. Hey M.E. -

    Want a link for a webpage that can dig up stuff on Facebook about people that have their profiles set to private? It can come in handy... LOL!

  5. Nons have no concept of "ruining" others. I had never even thought of that word in that context .

    1. hey anon, do you mean that non-sociopaths do not want to ruin others??


  6. Good day,,,,
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  7. There was this guy I met online I don't know why I was so intrigued by him for awhile. I couldn't understand why my mind latched onto him. I knew it was a reflection of something I've gone through and I figured it out -- the man reminded me of my own father. He used a fake name online, but I knew his real identity for years but never told him that until he tried to bash my name with mutual friends when i got into it with him. I just told him in a private message that his secret identity was safe with me. So maybe I rubbed him but I did it in private. He bashed me while I never revealed his identity because he's in some witness protection shit and I just don't care to be involved with that. He was dumbfounded that I knew his identity. I think he's just too dumb. I casually found it out through a friend that grew up with him through a group chat of us gals one day. She said this "fellow ...blah blah " is just a big bully and wait till I see him. He never knew I knew his real identity till probably four years later thinking I just found it out. Lol. Like who the fuck cares really. Why would I even bring it up to him. Hey by the way " your real name is this asshole. "

  8. I was involved with an spath for a few years. He put me through hell. The games, etc etc etc. He almost did destroy me. It was rough. I won’t go into all the details. It took a lot of research and websites like this and I figured out who and what he was.
    That really helped me gain perspective on what was really happening and helped me disentangle myself from the situation.

    I took a gamble in the end. I candidly told him I knew what he was and what he was doing. It wasn’t a threat or an accusation.
    I also told him I would not cause problems for him and respected that the way his mind worked was different than mine.
    (It was a longer conversation, obviously).

    The look on his face was almost stunned, but calm. It was like the cork was finally out of the bottle. It was a relief to both of us, I think. He did not flip out on me or do anything further to hurt me. We went our separate ways after that with no issues.
    We had beat it to death for years before this. I think at this point, he knew there was nothing left that he wanted out of having a relationship with me and needed to move on anyways.

    I have not caused problems for him and will not ever cause problems for him. I’m not outing him to friends, family and associates or trying to get revenge.

    Because I’M NOT STUPID.

    Like the comments of the man in this segment on being high functioning for a reason. Or your segment on taking on a sociopath and trying to win. I’m not going to do anything to provoke him. That would be the dumbest move I could make.

    He knows I could cause trouble for him if I wanted to, no matter that I said I wouldn’t. He inherently does not trust me or anyone else. But it’s been over now long enough that I think he knows I’m not going to do anything. Because he’s leaving me alone. I think I really lucked out.

    I wouldn’t even WANT to know the depths he would go to ruin me if I tried to cause problems for him.

    1. I was in a very similar situation to you dating a sociopath and/or borderline (She probably has them both although I know she got a diagnosis for AsPD.)

      She would purposely start fights, blame EVERYTHING on me even things she did to herself when we were in different STATES at the time.

      I did some research and found the "20 traits of a sociopath" and she ticked nearly every box, besides criminal versatility, short term marital relationships, and revocation of conditional release.

      It all finally MADE SENSE! Everything clicked in that moment and I was shocked/amazed/shocked. I had no idea what a "Personality Disorder" even was or that there were people like sociopaths, I knew there were guys that were "assholes" and women who were "bitches" but I didnt know they had actual clinical terms for people like that.

      Well I did exactly what you did but over email because I wanted to put all the traits and show her how well they fit her.

      Interestingly enough, once I unmasked her and told her "I know exactly what and who you are" (at this point I was going to leave her, I couldnt live like that especially when I read it is apparently incurable) but once I unmasked her she started to get ALOT less aggressive and tried to QUICKLY change the topic.

      After noticing her behavior once unmasked it seemed as if she was scared of me and started disconnecting from me ASAP. She was never mean about it, because she knew that would probably just make her look more disordered.

      Within a week or so after that we were done talking and went "No contact" and that was pretty much that. She was both a pain in the ass and a very good learning experience as well.

    2. Another interesting thing is that she never denied it (That she was a sociopath) either. Never tried to defend herself because I think nobody had ever unmasked her before and the shock of someone actually knowing what her pathology was and the guy she dated before me was a total fucking doormat. I have actually spoken with him and he said "I have absolutely no standards, anyone will do" and she fucked that mans mind up real good, he even wanted her back after everything she put him through.

    3. It was DEFINITELY a learning experience. I now can probably quote every piece of reference material on sociopathy that exists.

      He didn't come right out and say "Yes, I know I am a sociopath." But he admitted that he was aware of the things he did and said and how everything and everyone was a game to him. He was aware that he was different from others and that he struggled to feel connection and emotions.

      I did it very matter of fact. I had to do it face to face or he would have just ignored my email and pretend he hadn't seen it or that he never got it.
      He was more off-guard face to face.

      It is not something I did to insult him or lord it over him. He just looked at me. It was like, in that moment, I was staring at a stranger.
      Whatever was behind those eyes, I’d never seen it before. It was a completely different persona.
      He was completely himself in that moment. It was probably the most honest moment I'd ever had with him.

      I think we ended things as peaceful as possible. But as to the topic of the original post, I let him know I knew what he was and where his behavior was coming from. But equally I let him know that I was not going to broadcast that, bad mouth him or try to ruin his reputation in any way with family, friends, or his job.

      The years I spent with him, I knew he wouldn't care if he burned down his entire life and lost everything if it meant destroying me because I had ‘outed’ him or tried to get even with him.

      I’d like to think it was the end of the road for us anyways and when I told him what I thought, he figured, well, if that’s what she thinks, there is no more use gaming her.
      Because she realizes it’s all a game, etc. It was just over. A light switch flipped.

      I know he is still working and functioning well. I don’t want him to act in a way that is detrimental to his well-being. He’s spent many years building the life he has.
      I don’t want him to lose that.

      And I CERTAINLY don’t want to be the one he’s focused on to destroy. Because I have no doubt whatever he had in mind to destroy me I wouldn’t see coming and it would be worse than anything I could imagine.

    4. That is a good thing to not have resentment, more power to you! Especially if you were with the person for years!!!! I cannot even imagine that mine both lasted only like 3 months at the time I couldnt stand even being near them anymore.

      If I can help another person I do, I told that man so he wouldnt get fucked over and he confirmed to me that she was "Exactly like I said she was" and in the end he thanked me for it. I would do it again if OI could, she was awful and unpleasant once she got her hooks into you.

      She actually still calls me from time to time to "hang out" but we have not for years and I dont plan on meeting her ever again (if I can help it LOL)

    5. I am at the point where I have no resentment and have fully moved on. This was not always the case. I went through hurt, anger, confusion, wanting to hurt him to get him back for all the turmoil he put me through......

      I really think figuring out he was a sociopath and looking up everything I could about them made me able to let go. I can internalize that it really wasn't personal.

      These behaviors are intrinsic in the makeup of his personality. He tried many times to "change", but acting a different way to "make me happy" and keep me was not sustainable and was, in fact, alien to him.

      I think if people knew more about sociopathy it would help them avoid toxic relationships. I don't think anyone can "fix" or "change" anyone.

      I would be cautious about 'outing' your ex. :( You never know what she would do if she was set off enough.

      I contacted one of my sociopath's exs years back. They had broken up YEARS before he and I had met. I reached out to her to ask her if her experience with him was similar to what i was going through. I should have expected that, indeed, she had gone through the mill with him as well.

      But he found out I contacted her. I thought he was going to kill me........

      Don't underestimate a sociopath if you trip the trigger that really makes them angry.

      If you are done with the relationship, it's safest to just stay away, in my experience. I have no idea if he is in another relationship or not and I don't want to. I assume he is because he NEEDS to have that supply or he gets very depressed and despondent. I will not be reaching out to more ex's or to current gfs if I happen to find out who they are.

    6. You are very right and wise to "not take it personally" this is just what they do, it is their natural way of being.

      You know it is actually bizarre how I was able to tell her new boyfriend. Maybe this will show a bit of her lack of empathy here but she called me with him sitting right there. We got off the phone and a bit later I got a text from her and asked if she was still with her new BF. She said yes.

      So I texted her phone back and asked if he was reading what we were writing to each other and she said yes he was. my next text was something like this.

      "I want him to know how you really are. I went on to say she was a "Narcissistic Sociopath" with no empathy for anybody but herself." I dodnt want to use the "psychopath" label because I didnt want him to geth the wrong idea.

      She clapped back at me and was like "Fuck You" and I was just real calm and said "I just thought he should know.

      3 weeks later I get that text from him, he got away from her quickly and thanked me for the warning.

      Iam not scared of this woman at all. she is also really odd. Like after we would get into heavy fights or even after I called her out to her BF she would call me and act as if nothing happened. I realized it is because she is incapable of real/serious emotions and empathy and nothing really seems to "touch her" emotionally.

      When we started seeing each other I went into her room and she had some pictures on the wall and I said "Who are you with in these pictures"? (she was with a guy and a girl) and she said that is my ex boyfriend and my ex best friend, and I asked her why they were not friends anymore and she said "Because while she was my best friend she had sex with my boyfriend" and I asked "Was it him? (the guy in the picture)" and she said "Yes"......... THAT WAS EXTREMELY ODD AND OFFPUTTING TO ME.

      She said dosent talk to either of them anymore (also she may have been lying about that I have no proof but she was a sociopath so I wouldnt doubt it) yet she kept pictures of the 3 of them on her wall.

      Why would ANYBODY do that? These werent like vaction pictures they were just day tio day life pictures and you kept this reminder of what happened to you on your wall?

      Is that masochistic or does it show a lack of feeling? To me it showed an obvious lack of feeling and emotion.

      Its kinda like Cleckley said in The Mask of Sanity "The psychopaths life is so bleached of deep emotion that he is invincibly ignorant of what life means to others".

      I havent talked to her for months and I dont have her phone number she contacts me from time to time with each stretch getting longer in between (thank god lol)

    7. I'll tell you why she would have that weirdness on her wall. Trophy. ;-)

    8. A trophy of her old best friend and boyfriend who had sex multiple times while they were going out?

      Does that really seem like a trophy to you? Does it even sound like something worth having the trophy over?

      She got fucked over by the 2 people in the picture and no longer speaks to them.

      As a person with semi-normal (i do use mind altering drugs that why I say that) feelings and emotions I would NEVER keep a picture of a woman I was dating and a best friend I had that was banging her multiple times during our relationship.

      I just connot understand any real benefit from it and it shows a shallow affect and an understanding of things which she thinks are complete but or not...........

      I have a real embarassing story She was 19 at the time and I was 22 and I asked her if she liked guys giving her oral sex and she LITERALLY ASKED ME "What is oral sex?"

      Even her mother would say she was her "stupid child" (in a funny joking sort of way) but after she asked me I said "Do you like to be eaten out" and she said "Oh , hell yes" and I told her that was "oral sex" along with sucking cock (which she had plenty of experience, with a stud in her tounge and all lol)

    9. Rich hi. I really don't know but... Probably you don't know the whole story. I know it's so bizarre. Believe me I was told my fair share. I was clueless. Blink blink blink. ..I still don't get it. And that's OK. ;-)

  9. I think most nons have no concept of "ruining" others because we have no concept of manipulating others. That just isn't how we function. If you don't manipulate others you don't have to worry about others ruining you. We also usually don't take the route of revenge. We figure you will ruin yourself in time.

    1. "We figure you will ruin yourself in time"

      That is so true and exactly how I felt/feel and I always liked to give her a little reminder when she would get out of line "Karma is a bitch" and "What goes around comes around".

      Also, the two personality disordered women I dated were FAR from "high functioning" and outside of the bedroom one of them was ALWAYS functioning as if she was one bad day from a complete mental breakdown (That is the one with BPD or BPD traits and a solid AsPD diagnosis)

    2. I do care about the people that will come in contact with the sociopath. I have had to ask myself where is the line? It is somewhat comforting to me because I
      know other people saw thru them and
      *now* I know what they were seeing. Everyone knew there was something not right about them. And obviously the sociopath was aware of this even if it was on an unconscious level. The sociopath was paranoid and threatening. But there is an unspoken thing between nons. Its not about them, it's about us.

    3. Ive had the pleasure of outing one of the girls I dated to a new guy she was dating at that time. He didnt listen to me.......

      One day I got a text message from a number I didnt know and it was her boyfriend who had just broken up with her thanking me for telling him everything and he said "Everything you said about her was right"

      I thought that was pretty classy of him and I told him that he was a smart man for recognizing for the signs I told him about and how he was smart to leave her because most guys wont because they "think" she actually likes them, she is incapable of love and she was very odd and mechanical in bed, it oddest sex Ive ever had to be honest there was no connection/bonding/intimacy whatsoever which is bizarre when you are a person capable of empathy for others.

    4. Oh and their relationship was only about 3 weeks long. The only men who stick around women like her long term are doormats who get walked all over and treated with no consideration.

    5. hey anon, "We also usually don't take the route of revenge." are you sure?... because revenge is the third most common motive for murder ( ... (and I can't imagine that all these people are sociopaths)... it sounds like all peolpe (except sociopaths etc) are saints, but they definitely are not. there are enough people who harm others intentionally.

      "If you don't manipulate others you don't have to worry about others ruining you." well I guess especially then you should worry about others that may ruin you because you are not prepared to that. but it's very likely that one of the people you meet is not considerate towards you and tries to ruin or harm you or your image. but if you are manipulating people, you reckon that people are no saints and may ruin you. additionally you probablely know their tricks and see through them.

      hey rich, seems like you are always dating the wrong girls, seems like these people are really attracted to you.If this annoys you maybe you should take a look at your appearance and figure out why this kind of people likes you... so then you can increase the likelyhood that you meet a non-disordered girl..


    6. I have dated more non-disordered women than disordered. Yes I do attract these types because of my self destructive lifestyle, drugs, drinking daily, pills, and Buprenorphine daily you dont attract the healthiest people.

      It dosent annoy me that you brought that up at all, Iam well aware of it thats why I watch people very closely and dont fall in love without taking lots of time and essential due care.

    7. hey rich, so you like it to date these people? are you that self-destructive that you like if these toxic people are attraced to you? maybe you are even attracted to them?


    8. I do not like to date disordered women and have only come across 2 in my time at 28 years old. Maybe I do attract them, that could be valid but I have been with more non-disordered women than disordered so basically I think it just comes down to the fact that if you want to date people you are going to run into a bad apple from time to time.

      I was attracted to them in the beginning of our relationships when they were charming and kind, but with time you get to know the person very well and that is when their true character (or lack of character) comes out, it is just the luck of the draw I guess.

      Obviously this goes without saying, if you attract people sooner or later you are going to run into a bad one, maybe not completely personality disordered but still too much to deal with or they become a pain in the ass. Ive pulled back from getting close to women until I really know them for a little bit of time and hopefully be friends first, that is a good way of seeing how a person will/may be in a relationship with you and you can see their style of operating/ conducting themselves and see if you want to take a chance on it, if the other person is willing of course LOL!

      Have you ever dated a disordered person Alice?

      Also I think it depends on ages as well because it seems like people in this world are just getting more and more disordered in this degenerate society we live in especially in the USA.

    9. hey rich, well what you wrote seems consistent. I think my ex boyfriend was a narcissist. so yes I dated a disordered person. well but the relationship with this guy was more a purpositive relation (he gave me some very valuabel connections and i gave him his narcissistic supplies). in general I don't care if the person i date is disordered, as long as they give me what I want. probably i'm the one, other people would say is disordered if they could see through me but so far that never happend haha, but even if, that's none of my business...


    10. "As long as they give me what I want"
      That's the spirit Alice :D


    11. a heroin addict with sociopath problems. I feel you. i dont have the iceman as an icon though

    12. Anon, do you really think nons are not manipulating with every breath? In my experience they are constantly trying to grasp at everything and make it fit thier beliefs. They may not like to face it, but never stop manipulating.


    13. I wouldn't exactly call it manipulating though Alcibiades.

      Most of the times you can see straight through their failed attempts at even influencing your decision. I have a cousin who knows I have sociopathic tendencies, and has spent enough time around me that he knows how I am with people. He, so often, tries to use my own methods against me to try to change my mind or get me to choose what he wants. But, the lact of confidence in himself, or sometimes it just seems like his copying without even knowing why or how it works for me, gives him away the second he begins. I usually can tell really quickly when people are trying to have their way with my head. Most of the time I make them go in pointless loops where they start repeating themselves and don't even realize they've been stuck with no progress for minutes.

      Most of the time I find it funny but, some times they are so bad and so ridiculous it actually starts to piss me off that they are really trying that on me without knowing how bad they are at influencing people. If they're trying to piss me off they do a great job, if they actually want me to do what they want it just feels like an attack on my intelligence.

  10. Alice hi. All I mean is nons really aren't the threat that you might think. "ruining" is not a thing with us. Really. If you asked most nons they would have no idea what you are talking about.

  11. hey anon, well, I can't believe this. I mean revenge is about ruining someone who had done harm to you, isn't it? and isn't this revenge then? and a lot of people I guess at least think about revenge then...
    or whats your definition of revenge? did you ever had such feelings and did you ever acted because of these feelings?


  12. Alice I am extremely fascinated by the differences in language. Perhaps ruining is much like revenge but I can assure you that nons don't refer to it as ruining. That in itself is beyond fascinating to me but I digress. ;-) I find revenge to be defined as hurting someone the way they hurt you. I think that is a natural response and I think most people do think about it but don't carry it out. I think when most nons discover they have been involved with a sociopath they can't help but see the sociopath as "ruined" in their eyes. The person, the relationship, it's all ruined. I think the concept of "ruining" to a sociopath is to shift that feeling of being ruined onto the other person. But the ironic thing is nons know we are not the ones who are ruined. In the end we feel somewhat bad that someone else would need to do this to feel OK about themselves.

    1. hey anon, but why is revenge and ruining someone something different to you and other non-sociopaths? it's the same result and it's the same motivation... you want to hurt someone and act on this... so maybe you are telling yourself that revenge is not ruining someone just to feel better about youself?

      "I think the concept of "ruining" to a sociopath is to shift that feeling of being ruined onto the other person. But the ironic thing is nons know we are not the ones who are ruined." why should sociopaths be more ruined than neurotypicals? if someone harms you (regardless wether it's a sociopath or not), you are the one who is ruined... not the other person. why should the other person be ruined? well ok some people may be, because they they feel guilty and remorse (but well, sociopaths do not) or because they do mistakes and for instance get caught by the police etc... but in general I don't see why the sociopath should be the one who is ruined. and well I can't speak for others but I don't shift the feeling of being ruined to others to feel ok about myself... and I can't imagine that other people do this. I guess you also keep telling this to you to feel better about yourself, to cope with the situation, so you do not have to feel "beaten" (well beaten is not the right word but I don't have a better one right now).


    2. Alice this is very hard to explain so please bear with me. I base my statements on the fact that nons don't feel ruined because they have never been ruined. When I got tangled up with the sociopath I felt a lot of things. I felt damaged because I was hurt but the word "ruined" never even entered my mind. I would have never thought that if I had not read about the concept written by sociopaths. Even after I thought what in the world are they talking about. I may be hurt but I'm not ruined. No one can ruin someone else. But people can break their own hearts. When I think about sociopaths that is what I think. They are people who, in essence, ruined themselves. But I also believe if you can break your own heart you can also heal it. Your true power is over yourself, not others.

    3. hey anon, I'm sorry, I accept and appreciate you answer and i don't want to annoy you... I'm just trying to understand you point of view... well but i do not understand how can someone break his own heart? did anyone broke your heart so far? what's that feeling like? and did you mean sociopaths are ruining themselves for instance in financial way or ruining their image etc? btw I really like the phrase "Your true power is over yourself, not others." it's very philosophical!


    4. Alice my heart has been broken more than once and it hurts and it heals. I think most sociopaths would say they have never had their heart broken. But they are wrong. They beat everyone to the punch. That's what I mean when I say they broke their own heart. And by doing this to avoid pain they caused more. Only you can "ruin" yourself and consequently only you can heal yourself. It has nothing to do with money or image or others. Its something inside yourself that ultimately you must control or it will control you.

    5. hey anon, thanks for trying to explain all this to me. well I can see what you mean, nevertheless i can't really understand it. to me it seems a bit farfetched... but anyway it's interesting to see your perspective.


    6. anon who isnt alice:

      you're talking to a brick wall who wants to understand, ostensibly, but can't.

      sociopaths are overgrown children who have impulse control only as far as that can hide their frustration and who perpetually have to game and hurt others because they lack ANY sense of purpose. they will tell you they have self-esteem and self-worth, but they have none. what they have is a sense of entitlement and a sense of what they want, and a belief they are right. that is not self worth.

      they are perpetually concerned, even on here, with 'getting what they want', but what they want is usually emotional pittances: to feel wanted and to in return be able to control that persons desire. it's pathetic. there is nothing to be gained, they are children that want to get what they want, and they think that is a sense of purpose.

      read more here. they are obsessed with ruining, hurting, revenge, games. it's all bullshit they've fed themselves to justify not simply 'not having emotions", but rather, having a self-conception no different than a child stuck in an adults body. revenge, ruining, games: that almost never gets anything long term worth winning. they are outright fabrications used to justify infantile desires, senses of entitlement, to explain their temper tantrums and self-control issues (it's not an outright lack of self-control. it's the self control a child has pretending to behave until he can't stand it and cries for what he wants. only the most devious sociopaths can play the long game, and those usually aren't clearly sociopaths. and the ones that don't shoot themselves in bunkers are NEVER revered as anything but adult children that demanded their way.)

      As an empath: they should all be shot. And i would gladly pull the trigger.

    7. hey anon who isn't the other anon and apparently not alice, because that's me... yes ostensibly I want to understand but I can't... well, not yet... but I will (I'm intelligent enough to have a deep understandig of physics, chemistry and a lot more, I will also be able understand this broken heart stuff one day). have you ever tried to understand things you are currently not able to understand? probably not because otherwise you would first gather more information before posting some random bullshit like that, you probably copied from some dubious websites, that have no established research or science based information. seems to me like your are acting like a overgrown child... very agressive and generalising. maybe you should search for some hobbies or a long term goal.... oh and I hope you have enough bullets!

      the anon who is alice

    8. Its very hard to see the hurt child in the seething adult, but they are there. Some wounds seem to be infinite . But sometimes the smallest thing can tumble the most impenetrable wall. I just want everyone to know -sociopaths and nons-that they are not ruined. That is a lie that has been implanted somewhere - somehow.

    9. Alice,
      I think what anon mean is something along the lines of:
      Revenge- You take my hotdog when I was hungry, I take your hotdog next time I see you're hungry.
      You hit me on the head with a book, I hit you on the head with a book too.

      Ruining- You take my hotdog when I hungry, I make sure you can never show your face to work again.
      You hit me on the head with a book, I seduce your wife so that she cheats and leaves you even though you have a kid together and as soon as the divorce papers are filed I break up with her.

      I think Anon means neurotypical can't find it in their hearts to cause such damage to a person's daily life, and the collateral, without being crushed by the guilt. I guess I'd say if I even bothered thinking of retaliating that much because of something they did to me, they proably deserve it.

    10. To the Anon talking to Alice before bullshit Anon added his misinformed two cents,

      I don't think a sociopath can actually feel ruined, maybe played or defeated for a moment but, not ruined. I think they can feel like someone is trying to ruin them (and that would be a term to describe destroying what they've built) and turn the tables on that person but, I don't think they can actually feel ruined. I think sociopaths lack the shame, and have to much pride to get lowered so low. The lack of shame side reasons "why would I get ruined by this, how does this ruin me?" While the terribly high pride thinks along the lines of "how could I get ruined by this? I couldn't get ruined by some peasant or something like that". Or at least those are the lines along which I'd probably think.

      As for know it all anons opinions on sociopath wanting to ruin and hurt people, I think he doesn't realize how many sociopaths are actually around him. Not all sociopaths are interested in hurting others, just like not all neurotypicals aren't interested in doing good, I actually know quite a few who go out of their wzy to hurt others (think neighborhood bullies, you can't all shove them into the sociopath category). I know I for one couldn't care enough to waste time plotting to hurt people.

      Plus a sociopath aims for the end results, not at hurting someone's feelings. I've realized I never really considered others feelings (including the people I retaliated against, and ended up hurting when I was younger). I attacked status, position, achievements, not their hearts or feelings that just came packaged with the results. Lack of empathy doesn't mean not knowing when someone is hurt or wanting to hurt others. Lack of empathy is not even having a person's emotions come to mind. On a daily basis we don't get hurt by things people say or do (except obviously physically). We don't have that happening to us so we don't think or think to remember that it may happen to others. Those of us who haven't realize they are different probably don't even know or understand that we could be hurting others with or words and actions. I think it's kind of like asking a person to try to imagine how it would feel like to wiggle his tail, or move a third arm coming out of their belly button. You don't have it, you can't even imagine what having those muscles would feel like, let alone trying to imagine how you would move it. Even when you learn to understand how the mechanism works, you still won't know how it'd feel. My two cents. Maybe other sociopaths lurking around might agree or disagree with me.

    11. Alice and tii -I appreciate your consideration of my viewpoint. I agree with your contrast of revenge and ruining tii. I feel most nons avoid revenge because we feel it *would* ruin us. This is purely an unconscious thought process as ruing is not a concrete idea in our minds. To me personally it has less to do with guilt and more to do with something much deeper. I personally don't feel much guilt. Maybe it's because I don't set out to ruin others. I don't really know. I know I'm no angel, but there are certain places I feel I shouldn't go. And the concern is for others but mainly it's for myself. I don't know if this makes any sense. Its just how I feel and I feel it's not necessarily a bad way to be.

  13. Question: if you were member of a jury in court & had influence on whether a criminal would get the death penalty or not, how would you reason if it was revealed that the accused was a cold psychopath? Would you see the condition as "a mental disease" or not?

    1. I wouldnt, because of the fact that is a personality disorder, some become criminals but most do not, they know the difference between right and wrong and do what they do with free will.

      It is not like certain crimes of Schizophrenics where they were psychotic and therefore insane/incompetent.

      Letting psychopaths off any easier serves no purpose at all. Instead the cases of psychosis need to be looked at differently.

      It is a mental disease (true psychopathy) but it is also a personality disorder. There are many, many mental diseases where they are cut no slack and psychopaths should be treated the same,

      Psychopaths already usually spend less time in prison and are more likely to get out on parole if you read some information on it (Which iam sure you have of you have read alot of stuff Hare has written).

    2. Would it matter if the accused psychopath in court (in the fictive example) had high or low intelligence? Many low-intelligent antisocial socios appear (more or less) like "puppets": ruled by crazed impulses and without moral brakes?

    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    4. At that point wouldn't the crime be the decisive factor. In all honesty, hypothetically speaking if someone with down syndrome found it funny to stab people every time a pointed object was in his hands (don't really know if down syndrome comes with that type of thought process but for the sake of the scenerio). If after having put many victims in the ER with serious injuries, he ended up killing one. Should his sentence be overlooked because he has a mental disease.

      Though if a person committed such a horrible crime, I think the death sentence is an act of mercy. I'd probably give someone with down syndrome, who may have a completely wrong impression of the situation the death sentence before I give it to a psycopath (especially if he enjoyed his crimes). Rotting in a cell is a lot more rewarding punishment. I know if I ever did anything worthy of the death sentence I wouldn't give a crap about dying, it beats spending the rest of my life in a maximum security quarantined cell a hundred fold.

  14. Off Topic: So I went to see 50 shades and darker....hubby & I liked the intimacy and bonding he was finally learning and developing. His vulnerability in finally opening up to her and even his family was real nice to watch. And as to why he had to exhort his sadistic tendencies of power over his subs just goes back to his childhood, so he felt " in control." I love observing " as to why " I always knew those kinds don't need submissives ...... but a strong, kindhearted feisty and graceful women. She looks submissive but she has respect for herself. She is strong.
    Supposedly, in movie number three they actually start a family.

    Did anyone watch it. Thoughts?

  15. well, I can't believe this. Did anyone watch it. Thoughts?
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  16. I think there are many people like and visit it regularly, including me.I actually appreciate your own position and I will be sure to come back here.

  17. Thanks for your sharing. Your article is very useful, it gives me more understanding.
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  18. I sent this as an email to the site owner, but after reading that she is apparently swamped with emails, I thought I might get a faster response from some of the sociopathic people who regularly post here...

    It's long, and probably annoying, thanks if you get through it :)

    I want my ex husband back. I broke his trust, triggered what I assume must be some kind of abandonment issue, and wounded his ego.

    All of this occurred while I was in a disassociative state due to smoking pot to treat my depression and anxiety in the misguided belief it was healthier, which he encouraged because he also dislikes pharmaceuticals, and it made me " easier to deal with" He also seems to have something of a fetish for women who smoke pot, while not doing it himself.

    He may have a madonna/ whore thing happening, his ex girlfriends and the woman he left me for are all pretty nuts, bipolar, violent, and definitely not mother material.

    He has said he married me because I would be a good mother.

    He has thrown the most horrific insults at me, in the beginning somewhat randomly, but as time goes on (he left a year ago) mostly when I push him for answers, or he is guilty of something and needs to remind me that this is all my fault (also says it's not my fault because he never loved me for twelve years but is madly in love with this woman he's known 14 months, whom he left me for after less than two months and immediately moved in with)

    Has also said he says everything and anything to get me to stop talking and always has. (he regularly says contradictory things)

    After therapy, lots of reading, self reflection and trying to pick apart my memories as objectively as I can, I think he has anti social personality disorder (my therapist thinks so as well, I struggled with it when it was proposed, actually). I realize it's a spectrum, and I don't know to what degree, but I am fairly certain he did not cheat throughout our marriage, and also that he would never have done so or left if I hadn't done what I did first.

    He's fairly selfish, gets bored easily, wants to be out of the house a lot pursuing hobbies, even when our children were small. He is a good provider, and wanted me to be a stay at home mother, but I think has trouble respecting me because I didn't make money.
    He has little to no respect for other peoples personal property or laws, but I have not known him to be violent. He has always been kind to animals, and seemed to love all of our pets, but shocked me when he chose to put down his elderly and incontinent dog rather than take him to his mistress's house... He wanted me to keep nursing the dog while he left us, and I refused.

    He's never exactly been a thief, but will "borrow" things from friends and my family without asking, and often carelessly not return them, or allow harm to come to them.

    He usually asks his own parents, but I've never known them to say no to him.

    1. Ex-wife. FYI.
      this is an excellent example of the differences in thinking:

      "shocked me when he chose to put down his elderly and incontinent dog rather than take him to his mistress's house...

      why the shock? he made a utilitarian moral decision to prevent his old dog suffering in an unfamiliar environment....

      "He wanted me to keep nursing the dog while he left us,"

      ...which he expected you to do as an objective kindness to the
      [mutually cared-for?] dog....

      "and I refused."

      ....demonstrating to a psychopath that you were vindictively spiteful. So he had to kill his dog to ensure it wouldn't suffer.

      you screwed up big time, ex-wife.

      The dog, you, the children, his girl-friend HOLD *EQUAL* EMOTIONAL WEIGHT to him.

      BTW having re-read your descriptions of the woman's behaviour - especially her writing to your lawyer and trying to sell the marital home behind your back - consider the possibility she is like him. Which will explain his fascinated attraction and also the probability it'll last less than three years.

    2. Oh. I have more than considered that she is like him. He v basically said it. You know anything about Meyers Briggs types? I'm info, he's estp, she's most likely isfp or istp.

      Less than three years is good to hold out for.... I'm a sappy infp, but I was raised with an intj as my most emotionally available parent....

      If it will save my family or bring my husband back, I'll stab you in the face and sleep just fine, even if you're a kitten.

      Look. I know I should have reciprocated. I panicked. Theres nothing I wouldn't do for this man. If you have suggestions, please give them. Thank you. -n

    3. from: supernocturnal

      Hello 'ex-wife', i am sociopath, and i'm ESTP. and i'm a guy.
      and i give you much respect for what you're fighting for.
      i've read all of your replies. i didn't read the replies that were toward you, because most of them seem to discourage you from fighting to get your ex-husband back.
      i wouldn't say the chances are 0%.

      to make long story short, i have cheated on, and left my ex because i thought she has 'betrayed' me. i have moved onto someone else, and 2 years later, i came back to my ex. and she had very similar attitude as you.

      she was looking better, and did someone say look doesn't matter?
      looks matter A LOT to ESTP + sociopath. are you kidding? hahaha

      i believe your ex-husband is probably with that girl to escape from the hurt you caused him.
      whatever you did to break the trust, you have to beg and get his trust back. you have to make up for it.
      i really wonder what kind of thing you did.
      but it's not impossible to gain his trust back. it's just really difficult, and i'm sure you know that.

      so back to my ex. i am now married to her. and i'm really happy.
      and she didn't even kiss one guy while i was messing around with other girls.
      but those experience help me realize my current wife is the best for me.

      95% the relationship your ex-husband is having won't last very long.

      and when that ends, he will take a poke at you.

      i can clearly sympathize with him.
      and i'm sure your friends will tell you to get over him.
      and they don't realize it's not easy to get over an ESTP.
      it's impossible.

      my advice is this, but before i tell you, keep doing what you're doing, i think you know mostly what to do.
      keep making yourself look better. work out.
      learn more about ESTP and sociopath.
      most ESTPs are sociopath. and when you 'trigger' it, they can become very 'sociopathic' in a negative way.
      it seems like you don't have problem with it, so just wait.
      and if you stay single, and just work on being the better version of yourself, and when he sees you again, he might just come right back to you.
      and yes, act like your distant from him.
      but don't ever make him jealous.
      but when he needs you, IF he needs you, don't ever reject him.

      my wife suffered very much while we were apart.
      and now i'm making up for what i've put her through.
      of course, i didn't feel bad while i was doing it.
      and i don't tend to think about the past so i still don't really feel bad.
      but i 'KNOW' that she went through a lot, so i try to love her the best i can. the best "I" can.

      yes. your understanding for him is great.
      and when you DO get him back, i think he will definitely love you more than before.

      he knew what he was doing when he married you.

      right now, he's just getting back at you for breaking his trust.

    4. Thank you so much. I'm so happy for you and for your wife. And thank you so much for the hope, I needed it a lot today.

      I mentioned what I did, but it was a long story.

      It was pretty bad. I left him, went to my parents because I was dissatisfied with his emotional involvement with me and our children. He wanted me to come back, and said he'd change, but when I came back, I made another huge mistake. I asked him to consider a poly relationship. I thought I needed more emotionally.

      He agreed, it was all a mistake from the beginning. I was depressed, and my husband and I decided together that I should smoke pot daily. He said it made me easier to deal with, and I'm sure it did for a while. But eventually I disassociated. It felt like I was living in a video game. I have no doubt that I wouldn't have done any of those things otherwise, but I still did them.

      After the poly thing, during which I began a relationship with a friend I had become too close to, (again, pot, but it happened) he cheated... Didn't bring the relationship to me as a poly thing until after he'd started screwing her, and then the way he was talking about her scared me. Saying he loved her already, in a different way than he loved me... So I panicked, dumped my poly relationship, and begged him to go to counseling.

      I can see that our perspectives are different, and that I was wrong at so many points, and I can see, and he's said that if I had just allowed it, it would have ended, but I forced him to choose, and he left.

      The woman he left for, he's said is less attractive, but thinner... And pays for everything. Smokes pot daily, (which I have stopped for obvious reasons, but he does seem to have a fetish for) basically requires nothing from him...

      IDK if he'll stay with her forever because it's so easy or not.

      But I'm glad there's at least a chance.

    5. FYI supernocturnal,

      I'm terribly long winded, and my story took I think five entire comments to tell, I'd be curious to know if you still think there's a chance after reading the whole thing.

      I hope you still do, but you very well may not.

      Thanks again

      -ex wife

    6. from supernocturnal:

      okay , i was slightly confused in your comments but now i understand a little better.

      okay. now knowing that you're the one who insisted the poly relationship, the chances are,,, well. still there. but thin.

      but still possible.

      just know that he's going to payback for the pain you have caused him.
      ESTPs don't cry over things you hurt him.

      he will just payback and see how you handle it.

      and he will make you suffer, he will do double or more the amount of what you did to him.

      but if you get through it all, then there's a high chance he will take you back.

      and to be specific, what was involved in your poly relationship?
      did you also have sex with your 'friend'?

      details matter.
      especially to someone like him.
      because those details are going to be remembered by him and will do exactly the same or worse to you

    7. So, I didn't insist...

      I came back, told him that our marriage was the most important thing to me, but that I thought this was something that could help, but it was up to him, and I'd never choose anyone over him.

      And yes, there was sex. I suppose in retrospect it was probably a test, I think we were both shocked I was able to go through with it.

      Some people seem to be just fine smoking pot daily. I am not one of those people.

      Shortly after it started I began telling him it was a bad idea, but as I said, I think he wanted to get even before leaving it be.

      I have friends who are successfully poly, it's not for me. And I hope not him, but in the state I was in it seemed like a good option.

      He's definitely been trying to pay me back, and I'd say it's been more along the lines of 10x...

      But I understand it.... I have begged, I have apologized. I've tried so many times to tell him...

      The thing that gets me is, the way he just left the kids.

      When he started talking about this woman and I freaked out, I asked him to have any other affair he needed to, but not with someone he thought he was in love with.

      I have no idea how their relationship actually is, but he tells me he loves her like he's never loved me.

      From mutual friends she sounds.. Awful. And not like someone he ever would have wanted before.

      But people change. So IDK.

      IDK what to do. If I'd known then what I know now, it would all be different.

      But I do worry that even if I somehow make it through this, that I'll never really be able to trust him again.

      Can your wife trust you? Are you as or more loyal than you were before her betrayal and your separating? I wouldn't care if it were just me, I'd just do my best and hope for it too, but this has been hell on my kids. It's been over a year he's been gone, and they still cry sometimes. Still ask me to ask him to come back... I tell them that if daddy is happier we should be happy, and that he isn't coming back, and my daughter always says anything is possible.

      It's heart breaking, and I couldn't put them through it again.

      I think his life now has almost no responsibilities... That's got to be hard for him to give up.

      And at one point he said she treats him the way he treated me...

      So I guess I hope he'll get sick of that eventually, but with her paying for everything, who knows. I've also thought maybe he likes that better than the way I was. I was incredibly worshipful and adoring. Which is why it hurt that he couldn't see how incredibly out of character my behavior was, and at least try to understand. IDK.

      I'm probably rambling now. But I am afraid that he's really just moved on, because as bad as I think my choices were, it's been awhile, and the kids and I have been through a lot. I expected to be punished. At one point he said he'd planned on having an affair as soon as I left to punish me, which was surprising, because there hadn't been a hint of infidelity as far as I know in our relationship, until I made that terrible error.

      So, yeah. I kind of figured the chances weren't good. And he doesn't exactly talk to me like he's even remotely interested in the chance of reconciliation.

      Did you leave your wife for a specific woman and stay with her the whole separation?? Why did you finally come back?
      If you did, was that woman your wife's opposite? Was she just as important to you?

      Do you now feel, that as long as your wife is loyal, that you will be too?
      Thanks for your time and answers. Very much appreciated.

    8. Ex-wife, some last remarks:
      “I'm a sappy infp, but I was raised with an intj as my most emotionally available parent....”
      explains the co-dependent relationship with somebody like that. [BTW Myers Briggs is outdated. Five Factor Model of personality eg. the IPIP300 is current.]

      “I was incredibly worshipful and adoring.”
      Bad move. A principle: Strength ONLY respects strength. Therefore stop any begging. It just triggers sadism.

      “Which is why it hurt that he couldn't see how incredibly out of character my behavior was,”
      If you could do it, it’s not ‘out of character’ is it. That’s all he can ever see and know. What you DO.

      “and at least try to understand. IDK.”
      Sympathy for emotional weakness isn’t very likely, ex-wife. The wiring just isn’t there.

      [the kids] “Still ask me to ask him to come back... I tell them that if daddy is happier we should be happy,”
      stop telling them that. It’s ridiculous. They should be happier he’s left them? And tell them to tell him to get his ass back where it belongs. Regularly. About the only people he is wired to respond to are his offspring.

      But I do worry..... that I'll never really be able to trust him again.
      You won’t. You screwed around; he screwed around. So he won’t trust you and you can’t trust him. Probably should mention at this point that one of the traits of psychopathy is a clinically low innate level of trust...

      “and my husband and I decided together that I should smoke pot daily. He said it made me easier to deal with,”
      are you truly brainless? You both decided *you* were going to get stoned daily? You really, really need to take this on board: you can be as empathic and kind-natured as is humanly possible, and any high-functioning psychopathic guy will appreciate that complimentary style. What no psychopathic person will ever appreciate is an easily manipulated doormat who can be pushed around against her better judgment.

      “I expected to be punished.”
      you’re not masochistic as well are you? You expected to be punished? For being unaware he was psychopathic and has shallow effect? Perhaps you are under the mistaken belief you should be telepathic?

      “At one point he said he'd planned on having an affair as soon as I left to punish me, which was surprising,”
      why the surprise [again]? Another principle: An eye for an eye. Everything is about reciprocity. Everything.

      “Tell me about these battle plans I can't carry out please. I might surprise you. If I was a dog, I'd be a rottweiler. I could probably do anything, no matter how heinous, for my family.”
      Except you have those trivial inessentials called guilt, remorse, conscience. Such nice words..... so, so, nice.

      Supernatural offers a minor degree of hope. But you having sex with another is unacceptable even if one screws around lots. Why? Because one's sex partners don’t matter, but yours would always matter [ie. to him]. Unfair huh? Life’s not.....8-). BTW presenting it calmly as an example of independence is more likely to gain it eventual acceptance since he now accepts it in the other woman anyway.
      Anyway, Supernatural’s ideas of looking after yourself physically, becoming emotionally very strong, being observably independent, and waiting to see if the other relationship auto-destructs is a good idea.
      No begging allowed.

    9. from supernocturnal:

      first, i'll answer your question.
      my wife trusts me like no one else.
      and yes. i am very loyal to her. my loyalty is subjective.
      and yes i did stay with the other women during the whole separation. and she was the 'opposite' of my wife. and it was refreshing,, i thought. i couldn't deal with her anymore. and i had almost forgotten who my wife was. or how she is like. but when i came back just to speak to my wife, i felt like i was missing out.
      and at that time, the other women was just as important. or should i say, only important. because ESTPs can't focus on loving two. it's one or the other.
      attraction? yes.
      love? no. just only one.

      and just as K@ says, you having sex with the oher guy will be forever unforgivable to your husband. should've never crossed that line. but i'm gonna say you will suffer much consequences for your action.
      and because of that, even if you get your husband back, it will be very hard and i personally don't even recommend it.
      it would almost be a toxic relationship.
      but as your daughter says, anything is possible.
      you may prove everyone wrong. yes. you may. but the chances are.. still low. not zero. just low.

      "At one point he said he'd planned on having an affair as soon as I left to punish me, which was surprising, because there hadn't been a hint of infidelity as far as I know in our relationship, until I made that terrible error."

      this shows that you are very naive. you had no idea what your husband is capable of.
      yes. ESTPs/sociopaths, are VERY loyal. but the moment you show a SIGN of disloyalty, they will immediately dispose you. and is copmletely capable of moving on.
      and will dispose the children that came out of your womb. as cold as that sounds, it is what you are reaping from what you sowed.
      and truly. he doesn't care.
      he will maybe care 0.02% time but the thought will disappear him being with his new mistress right now.

      "but that I thought this was something that could help,"

      you can't fool an ESTP/sociopath. no.
      as soon as you brought that up. i'm sure he insisted. because of the audacity of you even bringing it up.
      as soon as you mentioned it, i'm sure he was crushed. and he realized you were already cheating on him emotionally, mentally. or whatever it may be.

      but your husband didn't say 'crushed', he immediately found a way to get revenge. and make you suffer the pain even more.

      so if you feel pain right now, just know that, that's the pain you caused him. because he won't do that for no reason. but the thing is, he will enjoy every moment of paying you back.

      "Shortly after it started I began telling him it was a bad idea, but as I said, I think he wanted to get even before leaving it be."

      too late to apologize. too late. know that song?
      yes. you never should've stepped a single foot in it. or even a single thought.

      but again, my advice stays the same. keep doing what you're doing. keep building yourself up.
      and no, he's not thinking about coming back. or he wouldn't be with her.
      he'll only 'think' about coming back when he actually comes back to see you. probably after he's done and sick of his new mistress.
      until he sucks the life out of her, he'll be there.

      oh, and K@ mentions, no begging allowed.
      yes. true. one time was enough for you to show him that you were sincerely sorry.
      so no need to beg again.

      okay. so let me put it to you clearly.
      here are your forecast.
      right now, your chances are looking 0.
      after he is done with her, maybe your chances are 35%.
      so until he's done with her. don't hope.
      just gotta wait until he's done.

    10. K@

      We both thought the pot was a good idea. I wasnt being a doormat. It worked well at first, but it got out of hand.
      People can definitelydo things that are out of character while under the influence of substances... My husband is smart in a different way than I am, but he is very smart. I expected he would understand that when I'd been one way for 11+ years, and another way for less than a year, that he might have understood that the factor that changed things was the pot.

      I would do anything to get him back, (I already deal with guilt daily, what's a bit more?)
      But I won't manipulate my children, or allow them false hope...
      And I'm not going to put them through the pain of him telling them no. He's aware of how they feel. As I said, they're young elementary school. I know how my ex got this way, and I know how I did, and I'll be damned if I don't do everything I can to avoid anything like that happening to them. My youngest was five when he left, I'm hoping that's too old for the parental abandonment to cause huge issues, and also hoping it works in my favor that I've always been at least the 90% parent, and I'm going NO WHERE.

      IDK if it's from living with him, or the fact that codependency does have some parallels with sociopathy and narcississm, or the obsessed love I have always had for him, but I could probably do almost anything to get him back, except hurt our kids.

      I haven't ever expected to be punished before that. I realized the severity of my actions, but unfortunately too late. I've realized that if the situation had been reversed, I probably would have been the one punishing, (although nothing like that) and he would have tolerated it.

      He accepts what in her? Having slept around a lot? To his knowledge she doesn't now, and I expect he'd drop her if she did... I have my own thoughts on that, but without proof they hardly matter.

      I've seriously considered trying to engineer legal and job issues for her... It wouldn't be difficult... But I suppose when it comes down to it, it's not her fault he left, even if I do have a low opinion of her moral fiber, and I want him to come back because he wants to, but because she fell apart.

      Thanks again.

      X wife

    11. Supernocturnal.

      I know. I know I shouldn't have.

      I've never regretted anything more. It hurts that the previous 11+ years didn't matter at all, but understanding his psychology better it makes sense.
      He did trust me, and it took time, and tremendous effort from us both. I wish I could go back, but I can't.

      You say you don't recommend it, it would be toxic?? Is this because you think there is nothing I could do to prove myself? I don't understand...

      You're right. I knew we were different, I did not know why he was capable of.

      Will he suck the life out of her? Is there some possibility that he'll just be happy and stay?

      He wasn't ducking the life out of me, or, he wouldn't have been if I'd understood him better.

      35% he'll come back, and we'll be happy? Or 35% he'll come back, and it'll be toxic?

      It might be prudent to start considering staying single forever... I don't want my children in a negative environment, even if I would prefer that to not with him at all for my sake.

      Thanks again for your time, -x wife

    12. Another question, what made you go see her? What did you coming back look like? All was forgiven and you dropped the other woman like a rock?

      Or did you have to work for it??

      It was the feeling that you were missing out....

      And k@

      Wouldn't the children frequently asking him to come back be seen as me trying to manipulate him through them? He accuses me of this already because our son hates his girlfriend. I don't encourage that at all.

      Thanks again again again,

      X wife

    13. Ex-wife. am already breaking the habits of a lifetime, and talking about marital relationships in SW. Thereby risking becoming an utter hypocrite. However, your stuff being a typical example of how NT and psychopathic people can get out of sync, guess it's a case of living with the shame.

      “I'd been one way for 11+ years, and another way for less than a year, that he might have understood that the factor that changed things was...”
      yes but you’re assuming he’s capable of or interested in analysing anyone’s motives. That’s more a NT female thing? It's what you DO that is observed. Not what's in your head. which is a guess at best.

      “My youngest was five when he left, I'm hoping that's too old for the parental abandonment to cause huge issues,”
      Nope, they’ll dislike him for ever. He too will reap what he has sown. He may not care, but it will happen nevertheless. Children are extremely unforgiving creatures. He’s f**ked as a father whether he cares or not.

      “codependency does have some parallels with sociopathy and narcississm,”
      huh? co-dependency is an unconscious effort to resolve detached, dysfunctional attachment issues from one’s childhood, by selecting the same style of detached partners as an adult.

      “or the obsessed love I have always had for him,”
      you are addicted to the assertiveness and charm of the guy. Try Schema Therapy. It’ll work. [K@’s suggestion for All Ills.]

      “I've seriously considered trying to engineer legal and job issues for her... It wouldn't be difficult...”
      well there you go! Now that’s the psychopath way. LOL. she engineered legal issues for you, so why not return the favour? Reciprocity. But no half measures. And it’d have to be efficient and guaranteed to work, not blow up in your face. That's the hard part.

      “I want him to come back because he wants to, but [not?] because she fell apart.”
      there you go again. Thinking like an NT. Why would a probably psychopathic girlfriend ‘fall apart’ if landed with viable legal issues?
      By devaluing her publicly, successfully, you would prove two things. First, to yourself, that you have the guts to do it ie. strength of will and deviousness. Second, if successful, it’ll make others [at her work?] doubt her trustworthiness, ethics, morals, whatever. Which will devalue her in your ex’s eyes. Better still if you find evidence of any current screwing around by her, behind his back.
      See? But the hard part would be do the above so surreptitiously, he'd never guess it was you. If he did, WW3 would start.

    14. X wife,

      These guys are right about reciprocity / payback and about strength.

      Sociopaths can zero the ledger, so to speak. This isn't so strange, really. Every one of us expects fair treatment and seeks recompense whenever feasible. They do it in a rather different way, no doubt about that.

      I find it productive to consider every encounter a negotiation. It's best if things are fair every single time. But that can't happen in human relationships; there's necessarily some give and take. If I take, he will inevitably find ways to take at the next encounter, and often (needlessly) callously. It's the trust thing: neurotypicals are comfortable seeing reciprocity play out over a longer period, and we find it easier to ask and offer. It's very immediate with the sociopath. And certainly what was written about his response to being crushed rings very true of my experience. He is actually hypersensitive, and especially around sexuality. This ->

      as soon as you mentioned it, i'm sure he was crushed. and he realized you were already cheating on him emotionally, mentally. or whatever it may be.

      but your husband didn't say 'crushed', he immediately found a way to get revenge. and make you suffer the pain even more.

      so if you feel pain right now, just know that, that's the pain you caused him. because he won't do that for no reason. but the thing is, he will enjoy every moment of paying you back.

      ... this without fail, every time, and mostly for things he's imagined (i.e. I'm not interested in others.)

      As for squaring the ledger, people on this blog told me I had no hope too. Before I knew he was a sociopath, I had detailed our affair and sent a nice fat envelope to his wife. And he exacted his revenge by taking me to court some 6 months later but it was perfectly clear it wasn't over between us. Sure enough, when his marriage dissolved (mine already had) and our undertakings to the court expired, we had coffee.

      So you will know. I'm sure you will know in your heart whether or not there's a chance and my feeling is that whenever games are afoot, there's a chance.

      Wait. Don't beg. That's very good advice. Articulate what you want and how it benefits him.

      Say sorry and mean it. No grovelling. Treat him with respect. In order to do that, you must respect yourself. Lip service is not sufficient in this! you must 100% take care of yourself and what you stand for. Be clear that you expect respect in return. Be very clear and explicit because there's stuff they cannot understand. And they're not 'telepathic' either.

      They won't say this and they may not experience it in the same way we do, but they definitely seek social safety just as we do. They seek it by putting themselves in the strongest possible position and don't be fooled: a lot of the time it is bluff. Nevertheless, they don't just attack threat, they annihilate it. And they do it proactively. They wipe threat off the planet.

      The most effective way to be is integrated: your own beliefs, feelings, thoughts and actions in alignment. This means you have to stop game playing yourself. Any time we don't say exactly how we are feeling and what it is we want, we're gaming. It may seem unfair to say that but it's true.

      He's not your salvation or your happiness. You are. And for goodness' sake, don't think their paradigm or way of seeing things is any more valid than yours for the mere fact they lack emotional premises to their arguments. The only thing this entails is that their arguments / understandings make sense in an affect-poor world view; they don't necessarily follow in our affect-rich environment. Please, people. They are definitely not any more "logical" than the next human, no matter the confidence with which they speak.

    15. The value of their different viewpoint is not the "logic", but the different lens. No one's view is ever THE TRUTH, so the very different perspective sociopaths have helps us triangulate on a more realistic model, perhaps overcoming some of our personal blindspots.

    16. Yes. I should have acted sooner. I could have easily caused her serious issues when they first started up, but I wanted to believe that he'd be back on his own.

      She values her job, likely more than anything. I'd wager that if an association with him ruined that she'd at least ditch him....

      I'm perfectly capable of thinking like a psychopath, if that's what you consider thinking like one. I call it thinking like someone who would do almost anything to preserve their family. I don't actually wish her harm, even now. I do wish her permanently out of my life, and my husband and childrens, by whatever means necessary.

      The issue is that at this point it would be incredibly difficult for me to achieve anything serious without arousing suspicion that it was me.

      Everything I've thought of doing to eliminate her by other means runs too high a risk of me getting caught and therefore separated from my children.

      I'm afraid you're right about them, my son said tonight that he doesn't want him to come back, and my daughter said something about him loving his girlfriend more than her...

      I think unfortunately, since I didn't react immediately, the only option really available to me is to wait and hope it gets messed up on its own.

      I have often wished I did react in the beginning. I chose to ignore her, but she allegedly expressed to him a fear of me causing her issues at work, and actually wonder how he would have reacted then if I had.

      To date, the ONLY positive things I've heard from him about her are her job, and the fact that she's thin.

      He's insulted almost everything about her...

      Now he says she's beautiful, but that's highly unlikely. He was quite clear in the beginning, and I've seen pictures. She's got a bad case of Shannon Daugherty eyes.

      He has several CO workers who have recently contacted me to offer support, and also happened to mention witnessing a different series of events in which he is far less faultless.

      Interestingly, they had no idea the woman in question worked in HR at the same building as them.

      I did make sure that they knew everything I did about her...

      Thanks for forgoing your... Ethics? To talk to me about marriage and whatnot.

      It's very refreshing for me. It gets very old fielding all of the " you can do better, he didn't deserve you blah blah blahs"

      There are advantages to the way his brain works. And though my prospects look dim, I firmly believe that if I'd been privy to all this information sooner, things could have been very good.

      Codependency is formed that way, you're right, but the same types of parents who can create narcissists and sometimes sociopaths also create codependents. It's a fallacy that cluster b types are always the bad guys and codependents are helpless victims... Codependency comes with its own patterns of abuse. The biggest difference is an over abundance of empathy rather than a lack, and an ability to recognize the issue and want to change.

      Again, thanks so much.

      X wife

    17. contd. to ex-wife:

      “be seen as me trying to manipulate him through them? He accuses me of this already because our son hates his girlfriend. I don't encourage that at all.”

      Spoken like a true guilt-ridden NT. You should merely note the fact your son has already made up his mind *for himself*. Then you use it to make a point, out of his earshot. So, this would be a reciprocal response to your ex's accusation:
      “Sweetie [sets up derision]; I don’t *have* to encourage our son to hate the slack bitch [contempt]. She’s managed to do that *spectacularly* [sarcasm] well all on her own [derision]. She seems quite an expert in that department [superiority]. So congrats on discovering her under whichever rock you managed to lift up [belittling]. We, in fact, ignore her existence. [nobility of spirit]
      And if you truly believe that *you* aren't going to get any spontaneous payback [derision] by your own children [contempt] for your petulant flouncing [belittling] out of here [contempt], you are *truly* deranged [supercilious]. They’re half you - remember? [malice] *I* don't have to do a a thing [satisfaction]. Just like you’re ‘punishing’ me [accusation of malice] - well guess what – your *own son* is already punishing you [joy]. Who’d have thought it, eh, dipshit? [contempt] What goes around, comes around [satisfaction, revenge].”
      [all said in a very cold, quiet and contained tone with a slight lift of the eyebrows at the end. Then one spontaneously laughs, brightly, with glee].

      whoever said psychopaths have 'shallow effect'. LOL

      The suggested response is possibly why relationships between psychopathic people are often, well, kinda, well, short. 8-)
      If without extreme politeness from both sides.

    18. Thank you north. That was very well put, and very insightful. I think I've already caused myself issues trying to appear to not care, when in fact I haven't stopped for a breath.

      I think you're right that they're sensitive, and I believe I do have a chance. Thanks <3

    19. K@....
      I've tried being critical of her and pointing out her obvious flaws... It seems to be counter productive.

      She's already losing hair at 33, as well as skin elasticity, due to having her thyroid removed for psychological reasons.... I didn't even realize they still did that...

      Since she's managed to snag my husband, he's mentioned that she regularly spends over ten hours getting extensions and god knows what else done at a salon....

      When we met, we were a couple of punk kids. I've always cut all of our hair, made a lot of it clothes, dates were punk shows....
      This woman dragged him to a Ben Harper concert out of state...

      IDk. It makes very little sense, but I don't think I have to point out her flaws...
      You're right about something along those lines being an appropriate response to his accusations though.

    20. Anyway, no more marital advice from me. I just can't take it any more................

      However, a good thing out of all of this has been the advice from Supernocturnal, which has been practical and informative [do not assume any sarcasm here BTW under any circumstances. read note re politeness, above].

      It is very true that what's needed is accurate info re differences, rather than guesswork and melodramatic hype.

      however, not going to be a hypocrite to my ethics any more though. 8-)
      Even for cnaym's amusement. So there.

    21. K@, you've been very insightful, and honest in a way that I miss terribly. It's been lovely. Thanks :)

    22. PS no you don't have to point out her flaws; he'll already have seen them. it's just a case of him cutting off his nose to spite his face at present.

    23. North,
      "a lot of the time it is bluff."
      keep telling yourself that.
      "They are definitely not any more "logical" than the next human"
      "And they're not 'telepathic' either."
      I could have sworn I read your mind just now..........

    24. X - wife, it might make you feel better to believe he was crushed by your actions but in reality you were the one who was crushed by someone you loved pushing you to do things you *knew* were not in your best interest. Things that didn't make sense. Your X was just angry that you acted like a normal human. Something he can never be. And he intends to punish you for that. Are you going to allow it? I sure as hell wouldn't. And k-go take a klonopin-your about as helpful as a head on kollision.

    25. I made mistakes. So did he, but I made the big ones long before he did, and dragged them out over a long period of time.

      I want him back, and so do my children. If him punishing me stands then the slightest chance of having another go at all of us being together, that's fine.

      What's normal? So, he's sociopathic, to whatever degree... I struggle with depression... Not really fun to deal with either.

      I do think he was crushed. I do believe he trusted me and thought my morality was unfailing. So did I. Apparently he can't or won't understand the effect that substance abuse had on me, but I still made that choice.

      In some ways he may be stronger, and while we were together I was extremely grateful for his strengths.

      Being able to forgive and move forward, to tolerate hits emotional deficit, to remain vulnerable in the face of his scorn.. That's the strength I can offer him now.

      Before, it was impeccable loyalty. I let us both down. Let us all down.

      So did he, but not until after I set off a bomb.

      I love him.

      I'll always love him.

      If there's a chance and he feels the need to put me through this, I'll deal.

    26. Hey X wife,

      I had a school friend who was disappointed when she worked out I wasn't morally perfect. I think my ex-husband had this view too. No one has a right to expect such a ridiculous thing.

      anon is right. Have mercy on yourself and don't take too much responsibility. I know that can kinda be a coping mechanism in its own right... if one can take responsibility, one can fix. That can be quite counterproductive, though, as there are limits to what you can influence (which you seem to understand.)

      People crash into each other. Like the movie. You've taken the lessons so the purpose of the pain is served. The future is uncertain, but if you can release a little bit, whatever the future holds can come to you. That can be scary as fuck, but in truth the universe holds infinitely more than we can ever embrace, so we can choose how to accept it.

      It's okay to love him. When you are ready, you might find the love and care you showed him can be given to your own self too. Things become so much better then. That's what I learned (and am still learning) FWIW.

      Take care :)

    27. X-wife, I really understand where you are coming from. I gave a sociopath another chance. I wish I would have just admired them from afar. I now would never want to be near them. They make my skin crawl. I think you can make it work. You seem like a strong and flexible person. But I also don't think you have realized exactly what has happened to you. What this person has done to you and what they are capable of doing. The second you realize how horribly you have been treated by someone who claimed to love you, that none of it-and I mean none of it-was your fault you will be sick. You are still taking the blame and blaming the other woman. You have to look past that. This man wants your self respect. Its not worth it. I understand that you love him but you really don't know him. He doesn't even know his self. I understand that people must do what they feel they must do and in their own time . I just know from experience when you step back from these people you have a much clearer perspective.

    28. Oh and I didn't know they were a sociopath. They blamed me for the most rediculous things. And it changed daily. The fact is they didn't have a reason. So they had to create one. You said your X said you had never been good enough. That he had thought that the whole time. He pushed you and pushed you until you gave him a reason to blame you. *he* did that. You were just trying to love him. That is normal and I have no problem saying that. What he did is absolutely devious and unacceptable. Period.

    29. "I just know from experience when you step back from these people you have a much clearer perspective."

      This is also true. Absolutely key for me is developing relationships with people capable of secure attachment. I'm taking baby steps because it's completely new... but profoundly life changing.

    30. Did you read the part where I left him and then came back and asked for a poly relationship, and then tried to back out of it whereupon he proposed one with her and I freaked out??

      I really cannot see how none of it is my fault, at the least I'm equally responsible, and first and worse...

      Yes, I did these things under the influence of pot, which seems to have an unfortunate affect on me, and which he encouraged, but I am still responsible for my actions...

      I'm just wondering if you missed that since you seem so adamant that I'm not to blame at all...

      The rest of what you say seems true enough.. To a degree...

      I don't blame her... I wouldn't have done what she did, but perhaps she wouldn't have done what I did...

      I just want her to evaporate, or move to Thailand, I don't care.

      He's responsible for his actions, yes, but I did feel very differently if he'd just left me out of the blue...

      I used to think it was his fault, for everything that led up to my mistakes...

      But he was just being himself. Himself is a bit selfish and sociopathic. I still love him. I know now I could have been smarter, and had the marriage I wanted with him.

      I spoke to him this morning, to do as north said, and to make sure he knew where I stand, as I have sometimes lashed out in pain and said things I didn't mean.

      I told him a little bit about having encountered someone online who reminded me of him and was now happily back with his ex..(supernocturnal)
      I wanted him to know that if he had a change of heart, that I would be able to forgive him, and that I thought the bigger problem was that he wouldn't forgive me.

      He listened. Maybe because it fed his ego, maybe not. But he listened.

      I'll be seeing him tonight at one of our childrens play...
      Hopefully something will start to melt.

      Hopefully trying to look good isn't unattractive... My gf says not to appear to try too hard, but I decided fuck it. I'm wearing the dress someone stopped me to say I looked like Elizabeth Taylor in...
      Hopefully I don't just look desperate, but maybe at this point I am?? IDK.

      I'm crazy. I know. I probably SHOULD move on, but I can't or won't or whatever.

      Thanks for the advice

      X wife

    31. From Supernocturnal:

      "You say you don't recommend it, it would be toxic?? Is this because you think there is nothing I could do to prove myself? I don't understand..."

      well, as of now, it will be toxic.there is something you can do to prove yourself. but it'll take tremendous amount of time and effort. and i commend you for taking that route. most people just give up. or.. eventually give up.

      "Will he suck the life out of her? Is there some possibility that he'll just be happy and stay?"

      he's happy NOW. if he's not happy, he'll leave. the chance of him staying with her is very small. he's gonna move on from her and find someone else. or come back to you. possibly.

      "35% he'll come back, and we'll be happy? Or 35% he'll come back, and it'll be toxic?"
      35% chance that he'll WANT to come back.
      and afterwards, it's how you react and do with the situation. YOU have the power to change the situation. so does he. but you can control your part. 35% of it.

      "Another question, what made you go see her? What did you coming back look like? All was forgiven and you dropped the other woman like a rock?"

      at that time, i was so done and tired of my crazy girlfriend. i needed an escape. and i thought of my ex. to get a breather. we hashed everything out in a few days and talked out all the misunderstanding and miscoummunication. and realized that my crazy girlfriend at that time was manipulating everything.
      my ex took me back and forgave me. and i dropped the other woman with a heartbeat. the process was difficult. but not extremely difficult. but my ex(now my wife) helped me through it all.

      "Or did you have to work for it??"

      i didn't really had to work for anything honestly. she just accepted me and took me back. but i was thankful how she was ready to forgive me. so it didn't make things difficult for me. we talked a lot. and now i'm trying to make up for all the pain i caused her.
      if she made the process of getting back together 'difficult,' then i probably wouldn't have came back.

      and people are debating on this 'crushed feeling' theory.
      but i'm telling you. he WAS crushed. not anymore. they only feel crushed for short time. maybe not even a day. not even an hour. they quickly come up with a plan to get you back. so it SEEMS like he was NEVER crushed. but i'm telling you. he was. not anymore. but. he WAS. maybe, the moment you told him, and for about 1~5 minutes? and that's still too long for sociopath.

      the 'crushing' feeling turns into anger immediately. and then revenge.

      sociopath/psychopath don't tend to 'dwell' on negative emotions and/or cry about it. or even feel sad about it. they IMMEDIATELY take action. or immediately plan out what they're going to do, so they can take action.

      i'm not justfying anything he's doing to you NOW.
      but that's the consequences you'll reap BECAUSE of YOUR action.
      so whoever tells you that he's evil or a bad person.
      well.. that's very subjective.
      what he's DOING to you NOW may seem that way. but, in his head, it's all part of revenge. because YOU pushed the wrong button.
      or should i say, a 'test'?

      so if anybody tells you "you didn't do anything wrong. he's a sociopath, he is crazy"
      well. they are absolutely wrong.

      well, they're not wrong about 'he's a sociopath and he is crazy' part.

      but just because he is a sociopath and is doing crazy things, it doesn't mean you didn't do anything wrong.
      i don't know what kind of foolish logic that is.
      don't accept it. you'll only lose more chance of getting him back. and you won't even grow as a person.

    32. Thank you. You didn't specify what it is I can do to prove myself... Is it simply staying the course?

      For now, it sounds like I improve self, stay as neutral? Friendly? Towards him as possible, and hope that she drives him nuts.

      Although, I didnt drive him nuts until I ruined everything, so I hope you're right about the chances of him staying with her being small.

      And thanks for understanding... I get that you understand because you're similar to him, but, sure, he's a sociopath, and maybe he's crazy, but I wouldn't want him back if he wasn't exceedingly valuable as well.

      If it's a test, I hope I'm doing as well as I am in my psych class;) thanks again!

    33. hey X-wife, "I told him a little bit about having encountered someone online who reminded me of him and was now happily back with his ex..(supernocturnal)
      I wanted him to know that if he had a change of heart, that I would be able to forgive him, and that I thought the bigger problem was that he wouldn't forgive me."

      I have a question? why are you so obsessed with the mistakes you made (and that everything or most of the desaster was your fault etc...)? why don't just "forget" or ignore them and try to convince this guy to come back to you by creating new, good memories? why are you reminding him of this story? I think that's quite counterproductive...


    34. You have an excellent point Alice.

      I suppose after having said things in pain and anger that I didn't mean, I felt I needed to make my position completely clear.

      However, going forward, you're absolutely right.

      I need to work on leaving the past where it belongs, and trying to build a new foundation bitty bit by bit.

      Thanks for pointing that out.

      X wife

    35. You can always count on a sociopath to throw the first stone, and hit their own glass house. Who exactly made you god? She is going to reap what she sows? Reap this-she did nothing wrong. She has a true heart. Some sociopath emotionally abused her and manipulated her. That is *not* her fault. What's the state of your heart?

    36. from supernocturnal:

      "You didn't specify what it is I can do to prove myself... Is it simply staying the course?"

      look better, stay strong. and don't complain or insult his mistress.
      show that you can stay strong without him.
      i know and he knows that you can't.
      but take action. at least TRY to make an effort to stay strong. and i think you are just doing that now.
      the effort is what matters.
      if you don't ask for his pity, and just show that you're trying your best to do everything in your power to raise your children without him, he will one day realize you were trying your best without him. and in fact, that'll actually make him 'feel bad', but if you continue to nag him, then he won't even feel sorry for you.

      it seems like many people are trying to tell you 'why are you being so hard on yourself'.

      well the truth is, if you are NOT hard on yourself, then he won't come back to you. he WANTS you to be hard on yourself. and change, grow, or whatever that is that he wants you to do.

      "sure, he's a sociopath, and maybe he's crazy, but I wouldn't want him back if he wasn't exceedingly valuable as well."

      exactly. i think many people are forgetting that he was married to you for 11 years, and didn't cheat on you. and he worked hard for you and your children.

      whoever tells you to move on because of this 'misery' he's causing you, they obvious don't get it. they only see the part where you are 'suffering now'. and basically telling you to not accept the consequences of your action.
      and how dare them, to think that you can just move and be 'happy' that easily. are they not listening to you?
      it seems like I, the psychopath, understand you more than these emotionally-driven, who wants to escape the reality.

      and if you 'attack' your husband with the insult K@ has taught you, not only will you lose him, he'll move on from mistress and find someone 'better'.
      obviously his mistress is not the only women he can get.
      if you 'cunningly' insult him and his mistress. then his next move is to leave you both. and find someone 'obviously' better than you two.

      anyways. he unconsciously knows you are better than her. but until that thought comes to his conscious mind, you have to just wait.

      so far, you're doing pretty well. and it's 95% chance that the relationship with his mistress won't last long.
      i want to say 99%. but anyhow.

      obvious he wants a solid relationship. he married you, had kids, and was going strong for 11 years. that means he also desire loyal relationship.
      he knows the relationship he is having with his mistress is 'unhealthy'. and no where close to a 'good relationship'.
      but it doesn't matter. not right now. he just wants to be happy. superficially happy.

      so it is definitely IN him, that he desires a normal relationship with two people not cheating.

      but what he desires, and what he is CAPABLE of, is two different things.

      i myself also desire a strong, committed relationship.
      but i am also capable of destroying someone who showed a sign of disloyalty. a 'sign' is enough for me to start destroying someone.

      because when someone 'wants to' to be disloyal, it is counted as something that has already happenned. it only means that person didn't have the opportunity to. yet.

      Matthew 5:28 'But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.'

    37. A day, an hour, one to five minutes. Incredible. Truly. You are angry that someone dared to stand up for themselves . People don't *do* anything to sociopaths. They dare to assert their own free will and that must be punished. Its all about keeping everyone in line. It has nothing to do with what anyone did *wrong*

    38. Cool it with the Bible verses there Jim Baker . Or else watch out for that lighting bolt. X-wife. Please read about gaslighting and the other manipulation techniques that sociopaths use to make you feel guilty so they can continue abusing you

    39. Look better and don't insult his mistress. In other words cut out your own heart. I really don't know if I've ever read anything so shallow and idiotic. And that's saying something.

    40. X wife, this is not how you grow. This is how you lose yourself. Thus is how you lose what makes you a beautiful individual. Don't believe what these sociopaths are telling you. Listen to your heart.

    41. from supernocturnal:

      hey anon, first of all, the ex-wife is feeling bad at her action because she choose to 'listen to her heart'.
      do you think the exhusband is thinking to himself 'i hope she's suffering!'
      no. he doesn't care. he only knows.
      and obviously. it's working.

      and you obviously don't undertand the makeup of sociopath, and you don't have to. obviously you are someone very emotional.
      and let me add, very petty. and if you deny, you are in strong denial of your existence.

      do you think your advice to x-wife is actually helpful? do you think saying 'listen to your heart' is helpful? hahahahahahahhaahah
      you are fucking hilarious. people like you make things worse and give the poorest advice.

      and you mentioned, that my advice is so shallow.
      well duh, what do you expect. but guess what, i'm telling her shit that actually WORKS.
      so what advice do you have for her then? anything practical?
      yes of course it is shallow, of course it is surfaced. but she wants her husband back right? are you not listening to her 'wants and need'? are YOU not listening to what her HEART wants?
      please show your friends and family what you're saying.
      so they can correct you on how you think, and maybe you'll be in denial again.
      i don't mind emotional people at all. i appreciate them.
      but you are above and beyond just emotional and petty. you are very closed-minded.
      why are you even on this site? aren't you here to learn?
      or are you here to express the anger and hatred towards sociopaths because of the pain they caused you?
      well if that's the case, then, i'm truly sorry that you went through it, actually i don't care.
      i'm basically saying, 'sucks for you',
      obviously you are bitter. but did i need to point that out?
      i don't know, you are a frustrating individual.

      but x-wife will be kind and nice and still show appreciation to you because that's in her nature.

      and i know you don't want this woman to suffer. i don't either.
      but the reality is. SHE IS suffering no matter what you tell her.
      and do you honestly believe your advice of 'you're beautiful and unique, just listen to your heart', is actually helping?

      all you're doing is putting on a superficial bandaid on her wound.
      which is kind of you.

      and what am i doing? yes. i may be pouring alcohol on her wounds, but i'm trying to help her. don't you see?

      although my advice is very 'superficial and shallow', IT IS WHAT IT IS. too bad you don't agree.

      i don't have to tell her to be a great woman and be a kind woman.
      she already is a kind person.

      hey anon, were you married 11 years? have kids?
      do you have husband that you want back?
      are you really sympathizing with her? or are you just upset because she's just a victim of a sociopath like you?

      i'm not saying she's "WRONG" for what she did.
      right and wrong is subjective. isn't it?
      but what she did, wasn't GOOD, was it?
      if i had to generalize the word 'wrong' with 'not good', then what she did was 'wrong'. but what i'm really saying is what she did wasn't 'good'.

      of course, IDEALLY, it would be nice if he didn't react the way he did, and tried his best to understand her emotional makeup.

      but it's already done. what can you do? just move the fuck on?
      again, she obviously is saying she doesn't WANT to move on. right?
      why are you then FORCING her to move on to find someone else?

    42. supernocturnal:

      you are very selfish. are you actually trying to understand how she feels? just because you couldn't get your 'sociopath' mate back, it doesn't mean she can't.

      and don't put all the sociopath in one box.
      there are spectrum of this type. and some can come off worse than others.

      x-wife is emotional, and so are you.
      but i put you two in different category.

      you in fact, are the unreasonable one.

      i'm not trying to directly insult you.
      i am speaking for everyone else who thinks you are an imbecile.

      i don't think you are stupid, i just think you are very bitter and have terrible history with one. but please know that what you are doing is not helpful in a practical sense.
      stop trying to create a community of 'sociopath victims'.

      and when you tell someone 'listen to your heart'
      please, you yourself needs to listen to HER heart.

      she didn't come here to hear 'listen to your heart'
      after pouring her hearts out.

    43. above is from supernoturnal
      not to supernocturnal

      -supernocturnal- lol

    44. Anon....

      I appreciate your perspective, really I do. But supernocturnal has illustrated my perspective beautifully. Not that surprising I suppose since I spent over a decade with one, and still love him madly...

      He's absolutely right. I do need to be hard on myself to grow. If I didn't, I would have lost the weight all those years. I would have finished school probably before I met him. I would have been proactive about my most likely genetic depression instead of hiding from it.

      And yes, he married me at 23. He was loyal and a great provider for 11 years.

      He took care of us. Actually, he still does.

      I wanted more of his time, but I wanted it on my terms. I found have had it on his.

      And frankly, I'm almost 100% sure that I'll never find that kind of sexual connection with anyone, even if I were somehow able to stomach dating.

      He is all that I need, but I wanted more.

      I made mistakes, I lost him. If being more than he needed before will stand a snowballs chance of getting him back, what's wrong with that?

      So I get into kickass shape, finish my degree, get a great job, and he never comes back.

      Will my heart be broken beyond words? Yes. Will my children and I be better off than we were? Also yes.

      I think what supernocturnal is saying, is that the best version his ex could achieve of herself is what brought him back. I have to assume that if she was determined enough to stick it out and do self work, she's probably a passionate and determined woman.

      I am too. But honestly, emotional issues aside, (my family of origin is dysfunctional, but obvs I guess) I've pretty much been handed everything my whole life. I appreciate it, I don't feel entitled to it, but it's been handed to me.

      You talk about gaslighting etc, those terms mattered to me when I thought he was a narcissist. I was angry then. But it never quite fit him.

      That's because he isn't one. I've spent some time studying both, and frankly, aspd is pretty human to me. Fucked up, sure, but human. Npd does sound evil. But my ex is not.

      Over our 12 year marriage, he grew. A lot. Even if it was just cognitive, he was more compassionate.

      When I left I ripped all of that, everything he'd gained by trusting me, out of his heart.

      How is that OK?

      What would you be saying to me if our genders were reversed?

      Would it still be OK that I basically asked my monogamous committed spouse of over a decade to allow me to have an affair?

      Somehow I doubt it.

      There is always an imbalance in a relationship.

      Yes, there are men out there who would treat me objectively better. I dated some back in the day and they drove me nuts.

      I love that man. I want him back, and I DID screw up.

      I can't say if there will come a day I'll give up, but it's not on the horizon.
      And thinking he wronged me, trying to justify my actions to myself didn't get me anywhere.

      Making a decision to commit myself to regaining what I lost is already getting my straight a's and a much slimmer waistline...


      Why on earth do you say that I can't do it?? I am doing it...

      What is it that you think I can't do?? that sort of a sneaky motivate me by saying I can't thing, or do you really think I can't get in shape and get a good job??

      I'm well on my way already...

      But, thank you both again.

      Like I said, I do appreciate the concern, but my situation is different and my course is set.

      Supernocturnal, does he actually think she's more attractive right now??? She's not, she is thinner, but she's little boy thin, which some people are into, not him. Even the porn he's always watched were women who looked like me only in better shape... Dark sort of Spanish looking, hourglass figure...She's pretty much the opposite of that...

      Oh well.

    45. "pouring her hearts out"

      Why yes, I am a timeline, thanks for noticing!

      I guess if I was I could just fix these problems though, hug?
      Anyway, thanks!

      X wife

    46. Dammit.


      Hug= huh

    47. X wife, what I'm telling you I would tell to anyone . I recognize that you have been abused and manipulated. I was too and it's been a couple of years and I'm still growing and learning. I have learned a lot and I have problems keeping my mouth shut when I feel I can help someone. I hope everything works out for you and your family. I'm sure your not perfect. No one is but you deserve happiness.

    48. dear god

    49. Anonymous I'm just catching up on the reading.

      My apologies, I feel your heart, word for word. I understand what happened clearer. The polygamy thing I totally missed, the 11 years of marriage, his loyalty I did not see. I see the whole of what happened. I was at work and read too fast and missed important parts.

      But one thing caught me, if you are olive skin Spanish/Italian decent I do know the blood that runs through your veins. I know your deep commitment and your vigorous strength inside. K maybe I'm a little biased just a tad. Haha. I'm an hourglass myself my husband loves. You will win. With him or without him. Keep doing what your doing. Your a wonderful mom and I do pray that your hearts desires within do get answered . It will all work out because your already making work. Stay on the course. Good luck with school.

    50. "Why on earth do you say that I can't do it?? I am doing it..."

      sorry, but i think you've read what i said in a group. and i didn't clarify.

      but i meant he knows that you can't live without him.
      i was saying, you are not gonna be strong without him, you can try, but you'll always miss him and want him.
      that's what i meant.

      but other than that, i think you are doing great.

      "Supernocturnal, does he actually think she's more attractive right now??? "

      no. he doesn't.
      but he can still make something out of nothing. that's his strength.. hahahah
      but in the end he doesn't really find her attractive.
      he's just escaping, and she happened to be the easy target. and just landed on her, and it happened to be some stick-figured woman with money.

    51. X wife,
      I haven't read the whole thing, just the last few posts, so I might have miscaught something. But, I could never picture myself (or any sociopath) responding that way because you asked to be allow to have an affair. In all honesty, to me that reaction is way too simple, and lacks impact. If I were agaist it, which I probably would have been if my wife had proposed it, I would have accepted, and I would have been the first to make any sort of move. I would have practically tossed her a side, and found younger, fitter (or whatever body she wished she had) side pieces that would make her feel self-conscious, feel like she wasn't attractive enough, and talk about how nice and awesome they were (without really bragging). I would barely touch her sexually anymore, until she realized she fucked up by proposig such an arrangement because she's starting to lose me to these women even though we're still together. When I felt she learned the errors of her way, I'd reward her by proposing we didn't need such arrangements (obviously after she had gone around a few times and realized that it wasn't worth it) and telling her that all I needed in my life was her. She becomes relieved, her confidence is back, she figures I was just experimenting and that it didn't mean anything, and she starts appreciating and loving me more than before. Everyone is happy and she learn a little something.

      The approach your husband took seems just a little to bytt hurt for me, unless he already was thinking of splitting and just jumped at the occasion.

    52. X wife-you need to understand that every choice you have made has been engineered by a man who has no problem making you feel guilty -and appear as the guilty party. He *must* have it that way. I understand that you would have probably never done the things you did but you were trying to get your husband's attention. You didn't understand why someone who had been so great and seemed happy with you had changed. You assumed it was your fault and that you could fix it. please don't take the blame . He will always let you. You are his wife. He should cherish you not want to punish and hurt you.

    53. And quite frankly I don't care what you did or didn't do-there is never an excuse for emotional abuse and you have been severely emotionally abused.

    54. She asked for a poly-relationship from someone who was monogamous and faithful. How would YOU feel if some 'normal' guy suggested that to you after 12 years? She is not deluded to feel conscientious about it. Would you choose to get involved with someone, right now, if you knew they'd be asking for a poly-relationship down the line, when all you wanted was monogamy? Probably not. Her conscientiousness does her credit. She is choosing the kind of person she wants to be and the way she wants to treat people. Would you rather be with somebody who has made that choice, or someone who thinks you should continue to cherish them regardless of whether they want other people and regardless of your own preference? It is unrealistic and you are a hypocrite.

      And as supernoctural said, there is a spectrum within types, and you're talking here about someone you do not know. Remember that. He isn't the person you dealt with. Life isn't that simple. You've lost sight of that.

    55. He is a sociopath. He manipulated and abused her from day one. That is what sociopaths do. He told her he never thought she was good enough. She *is* good enough. He showed his hand with that statement. He felt he always had the right to abuse her-right from the start.

    56. Tii,

      I'm pretty sure he was no where near jumping ship before...

      We'd recently bought 13 acres to build our dream house on..

      His best friend from childhood has actually suggested that this entire thing is intended to punish me...

      And I suppose the thing about it is, I almost immediately regretted it, and wanted to stop, but he encouraged me to continue, probably to easily justify an affair to punish me...

      Then I freaked out, panicked, and told him he had to choose.

      After leaving him, denying him reciprocity, and then telling him to quit or get out, he left.

      I'm guessing that in his mind, I betrayed him over and over...

      The things he's complained most about are me leaving and kicking him out.

      I didn't understand how he thought at the time. I had bits and pieces, but not the full picture. He told me at one point after he'd already started seeing her, that he'd planned to have an affair as soon as I left, before the poly thing. And he's also told me that if I hadn't made him leave, that he was sure he'd be here, and it would be over between them, but they " fell in love"

      I hurt him a lot up to leaving. Developing a friendship with the later poly man was wrong, and hurtful to him.

      I don't think he really fell in love with her, he barely knew her, and has said since that she wasn't who he thought, but has redacted that...

      But I do think he fell in love with the life he has there. He pays for nothing, she has a rich family, laundry service, no kids, requires basically nothing of him.

      Obviously I stacked mistake on mistake. I understand so much better now...

      My sister told me once that she was sure he loved me and wanted me to be happy, he just didn't want to have to do anything to make me happy ( beyond what he did...)

      I think that's probably true.

      Also, he does seem pretty but hurt, it comes and goes, but it was awful in the beginning. Now I just get bits...


      Every decision I've made has not been engineered by someone else.

      Even in the haze of daily pot use, I had an inner voice telling me I would regret all of it, I just didn't listen. Instead I listened to some asshole telling me that my marriage was unhappy, which I had NEVER thought... I'm sure it was a coincidence he wanted to bone me.


      he's of course responsible for his mistakes, but from his perspective, they aren't mistakes really, just reasonable reactions.

      Well, I love him enough to try and see from his perspective, regardless if whether or not he can see mine.

      I'm not a helpless victim. I betrayed my own morals and ethics.

      It would have been nice if he'd said, hey, you're acting crazy, you need to quit smoking,

      He did ask if I thought I was smoking too much. Obviously, being crazy, I said no.

      Maybe there are relationships out there with no emotional abuse, IDK, but my marriage definitely had it on both sides. And it's really subjective, isn't it. If I was objectively less abusive, (up until the end when I was CLEARLY more abusive) but he was more hurt, what about that? He does have feelings.

      Supernocturnal and supergirl,


      You're right, ish. I can survive without him, but you're right, I'll always miss and want him.

      And I will be OK... I don't think I win unless I win my family back though.

      Oddly enough, people always guess I'm Spanish, or Italian, or sometimes Egyptian (?) but I'm actually half Irish and half Polish (but my polish side started out as gypsies in Persia and just sounds up there)

      Thanks again guys, I know relationship help is probably the last thing this blog is about, but it's been so much more helpful than anything else I've found.

      Thank you.

    57. Second anon.

      Thank you. Hopefully my regret and attempts to rectify what I can will eventually matter to him.

      Neither of us ever imagined something like this, and least of all from me.

      I would never have wanted or suggested such a thing sober, and I won't go near it with a stick...

      I guess I've considered what I would do if he came back with that as a caveat...

      I'd probably accept, and then find a way to destroy it if I could ( the poly, not our relationship)

      It would certainly be easier if he were back, to do something about it.

      And there is a spectrum. And I would find it difficult to believe he's high on it, although I think this experience has sent him into a (hopefully) temporary very high state of narcississm.

    58. Anon with the orange b...

      To clarify. All the insults, and statements that I wasn't good enough etc, came AFTER the poly, and AFTER I refused to allow him one.

      Before that he didn't exactly discourage me from feeling inferior, sometimes he did, but not always, probably a combination of keeping his upper hand, and not exactly having the capacity for the kind of comfort I needed.

      He loved me. I was good enough, or he wouldn't have married me.

      I think it's fairly obvious that after rejection, he would want me to believe that he'd not loved me from the get go, but that just doesn't make sense.

      I could list more sweet moments from our life together then insults, but I don't think it would do anyone any good.

      But he loved me and I hurt him, and I love him and want a second chance.

      End of.

    59. X-wife no of course you are not a helpless victim but you have been victimized by someone who claimed to love you. Of course you have the free will to make your own choices but people who are capable of love and care don't respond the way he did. I am only trying to give you another perspective. I know you just wanted him to love love you and for things to work out. The thing is of course you can get him back and things might seem better but if you don't work on yourself - and not just in a superficial manner-i mean in a deep emotional manner-you will still be open to be abuse.

    60. Orange b anon.

      Thank you for the concern.

      However, you are not offering me a new perspective. You are offering me one that I have considered at great length and rejected.

      You say of course I can get him back... Fascinated, please tell me how exactly.

      Otherwise, as much as I do appreciate you offering your time and opinions, I will have to stop responding.

      I've been very clear, I understand your perspective. I considered it. I rejected it.

      Seriously, if you're sure I can get him back, please do tell.

      What he gave me before is enough. He loved me as much as he could the way he can.

      I think/hope that under the hurt and anger he still does. Time will tell.

      Thanks and best wishes,

      X wife

    61. Best of luck to you. It's easy to fuck up under the right (wrong) conditions, and mind altering drugs especially. You're right to examine how that all happened and how to guard against getting dragged into confusion in future, and maintain your control over you. That's what life is. Sounds to me like you were manipulated by the "asshole", too. I think I'd be straight about the poly thing, and focus on where you're at, but I'm not a sociopath and can't advise on psychology. You seem to have learned and understood a lot, though, and I hope it works out well :)

    62. X wife the truth is they always come back or try to anyways. But it's not about love like you might hope, it's about something they want or exacting revenge. If you are aware of that you can at least protect yourself. The more aware you are the better choices you can make.

    63. He's not an asshole....

      Thank you for the good wishes.

      I don't think they always come back. If he's happy where he is, and stays that way he won't.

      But I sure hope you're right.

      I have to say again. You seem to be confusing narcissistic personality disorder with anti social personality disorder. Theyre not the same thing.

    64. no,this asshole:
      "Instead I listened to some asshole telling me that my marriage was unhappy, which I had NEVER thought... I'm sure it was a coincidence he wanted to bone me."

  19. He was attracted to me because I was quite confident when we met, above average intelligent, and genetically quite physically good looking. My body proportions and face are certainly above average. Unfortunately, so is my weight. I am also artistically and vocally gifted, he very much enjoyed going to karaoke with me, as I believe he enjoyed the accolades as I was his.

    I think looking back, that while he would have liked me to lose weight, he also liked having it as a mechanism to control.

    My ex is extremely good looking, very athletic, and usually the best at things he does. We have very different kinds of intelligence, which I think made him both proud and uncomfortable, but he is mathematically minded, and seems to have an innate understanding of mechanisms. He is an earner and saver, I'm terrible at it. He did tolerate me, often indulged me, and showed me love in his way. Unfortunately I had difficulty seeing it at the time.

    We had very good and often adventurous sex almost daily.

  20. As I said, we have two children, still early elementary age.

    Looking back, he said many things to make me think he probably does at least have aspd. If there's a difference between that and sociopathy, I haven't been able to define it.

    He has often said his emotions just weren't as deep as other people's. When he left he told me he loved me not for who I was, but for what I did for him, and for how deeply I loved him. I was doting and worshipful. I waited on him. Cooked anything he wanted from scratch, brought him his meals in bed ( he works a varying shift which is difficult)

    I am by his own admission an exceptional mother, although he's been unfairly critical since leaving. I believe because he is virtually not parenting at all, he only takes the children for half the time he's allowed, but still has lots of hobby time.

    I also nagged him for more of his time, and was a terrible housekeeper despite being a stay at home (homeschooling) mother, wasn't as thrifty as I should have been, and was often depressed as I was afraid to seek treatment. I have since, and am much better... Although now suffering from the circumstances I've explained.

  21. I think I intrinsically knew he was this way, loved him anyway, and things would have been good if I hadn't basically smoked myself temporarily insane.

    I have lost weight since he left, he briefly said he was coming back, kissed me, etc... But ultimately told me he knew he was being selfish but he didn't want to stop.

    I've never seen him really cry, early on a friend of his from highschool died, and when I asked why he didn't seem sad, he said that he supposed it was the friends fault as he had diabetes and chose not to eat well. He didn't cry when his grandma died, although he seemed as fond of her as he did anyone.

    Once, he thought I was going to break up with him early in the relationship, and he cried maybe two years....after we had our son, he teared up watching the Lion King when mufasa died. A few years back, when we'd been having a run of very very good years, he came home and played a song for me that he said reminded him of me. It was a cover of John Legends "all of me" and I sat on his lap while we listened, and his tears fell onto my chest. I cried too, I cry often. I did learn to cry less from him.

    He seemed extremely happy when our kids were very small. Still wanted me to do all the work, but doted on them.

    Would often brag about me and the kids to people, but seemed to feel that being the only money maker meant he really didn't have to help out with much else. Would work on the house and yard, and was of course talented, but only when he felt like it.

    1. Whoops. Two years, not years

    2. He supposed it was the friend fault for dying.... That's why he didn't seem sad. X-wife didn't that send chills down your spine when he said that? Its so typical of what sociopaths do. Blame others. Don't believe it. All the blame he is trying to put on you makes about as much sense as his statement about his friend. He*wants* you to believe it's your fault. After you are away from him you will realize just how rediculous his logic is. You will come back to the land of the living. You will realize you are so much better than all that bullshit.

    3. Yes, I see that, and I see the parallel...

      It concerned me, but it didn't send chills down my spine...

      My ex and I are similar enough to be a good couple as far as that goes, tastes, likes, hobbies, etc. And different enough to be dynamic, I'm incredibly emotional, he's incredibly not... As long as I trusted his loyalty, and I did, I felt that we made a good team.

      Yes. He wants me to believe it's all my fault. Even when he tries to say otherwise, he lays the blame on me not being good enough from the beginning, essentially. Objectively he is wrong, with a neurotypical partner, I imagine the outcome would have been quite different...

      That's not who he is. I didn't fully understand before. I understand much better now.

      Despite my bizarre missteps and choices, I'm actually very traditional in terms of family and relationships. He always has been too, to my knowledge.

      There are many theories floating around about certain personality disorders and other disorders...

      There are links between autism, adhd and sociopathy...

      He has all of these in his family. I have at least two.

      I personally think that without some of these disorders the world wouldn't have done of the good things it does.... My ex isn't a tyrannical murderous leader of an impoverished country, he's a guy with a union job....

      He is in some ways stronger and in some ways weaker, just like the rest of us.

      I've been away from him for over a year. My feelings are not diminished, nor do I expect them to.

      Beyond feelings, I chose him as a life and parenting partner for a reason...

      He is clearly in a more narcissistic state than I've ever seen him... But he hasn't always been this way, and I expect that like many of us, he makes choices daily, and under the right circumstances will make different ones.

      He is not unfeeling or uncaring, he feels and cares differently...

      He does struggle immensely with taking responsibility. But I don't believe it's impossible for him to..

      It just might look different.

      I've studied sociopathy an awful lot recently..

      Many if not most of them are capable of cognitive morality, and empathy..

      Who's to say that isn't more stable than my emotions governed by hormones and emotions over which I have very little control?

      And speaking of those emotions, I love him. Is it an addiction, maybe.

      But who wouldn't want to feel those early relationship feelings for their partner over an entire lifetime if they could?

      How will a relationship with someone where I don't feel that ever compare?

      We were happy for a long time. I knew he was different, I accepted it before I could name it. But what I didn't understand was that it was something that I could work around to improve things to our entire families advantage.

      Having that information now, it's difficult to not want to use it.

      Thanks for your time and thoughts, I do understand that this isn't the way most people operate, it is though, the way the man I love does. If I can get him back I can live with that.

      -x wife

    4. X wife hello. I'm sorry you and your family are going thru this. No one deserves this treatment. Ever. And I guess the hardest part is when you let go of all of the what ifs. When you face the fact that someone you loved and who said they loved you is the same person who is *capable* of doing such intentional cruel actions. And to be painfully blunt no I don't believe sociopaths are capable of taking responsibility. That is in fact what makes them sociopaths. They can't feel the way a whole person can. They can only fake it. You will find that you are angry and rightfully so. You will place the blame where it belongs. Eventually. You will be yourself again. He has tried to suck the life out of you. I don't know about you but I'm way too feisty for that. Keep your chin up;-)

  22. Told me no when I asked to get a job, because his schedule was too difficult.

    Left, after things really did get fucked up, and it really was mostly my fault, in spite of how out of character my behavior was. I didn't lie, but left to go to my parents for awhile, and when I came back, asked him to consider a poly relationship, as I felt I loved him but he couldn't meet my emotional needs. I had a friend who I shouldn't have had. He agreed to it.

    I didn't like it... Thought we should stop, I think he wanted to make sure he got one in first and said no it's working for now.

    Then went behind my back with a woman he met at a bar, she works for the same company, one of his friends who had already slept with her invited her out. I caught him, and made him choose. I should have allowed it as he did, and kept insisting I didn't want it. He has said that if I had he doesn't think we would have split, and that the affair would have ended quickly, but since I made him leave he fell in love with her. I think after years of shallow effect he was overwhelmed by the feelings. Also, she kept him at arm's length, and seems to have a mean sense of humor which he seems to enjoy. She is very thin, before he left he told me that I was hands down prettier, but she was thinner and that mattered too. He said many things during that period that seemed like he was weighing options and not falling in love.

    Mutual friends have said she clings to any man who pays attention to her, and my husband was correct in his assessment of her attractiveness. She is thin, but with no shape. Her face is a four at best, but she spends a lot of time getting extensions etc to try and improve things. Her face is rather asymetrical. She is by far the least objectively attractive person I've known him to be involved with, and probably thinks she won the lottery.

    She pays for everything, including a laundry service, and trips out of town.

    Her family is rich, and she also has a corporate job. She tried to sell our house behind his back, (I kept it) she emailed my lawyer as him, she had her thyroid removed, and hid the fact that she has to be on drugs for life from him for almost a year. He doesn't like things like that....

  23. She's also out of town for work a lot, like weekly. And when she is in town, she doesn't seem to care what he does as long as it isn't near me.

    She maintains friendships with her exes, and uses rx drugs to control one... Another helps her bring pot in from CO.

    She has made his life extremely easy. He pays for almost nothing, almost all of his non working time is free....

    I've heard she turns him down for sex often, and he's insinuated to me that she's not exactly... Well, that's shes a bit loose... But maybe I should have refused him occasionally to keep him chasing. I never could in 12 years, he was irresistible to me.

    I'm sure this is an annoying amount of background info, but I really want informed opinions from people who might know...

    Do I have any chance at all of luring him back? And keeping him? Up until the end when I'd already betrayed him, I believe he has always been a loyal partner.

    I've seen it said that sociopaths are intrigued when people change. I've been going to the gym daily, and plan to get into the best shape of my life as soon as possible. I'm in nursing school, getting perfect grades, and this summer I may have an opportunity to start working and making significant money using skills have from former jobs at dealerships doing light body work. He loves cars. I love to paint.

    His life is easier, she is easier, but we were pretty happy for 11 years, we have kids, he chose to marry me when he could have kept playing the field....

    What are my chances? Was i screwed permanently as soon as I broke his trust? Is it even possible there's any chance? If so, do you have any suggestions other than what I've mentioned? I'm aware that seeming disinterested will probably help. and also that I need to start ignoring his girlfriend instead of insulting her....

    I'm willing to do just about anything to get my marriage back. He'll never love me the way I love him, that's fine, but I want him to love me the way he can, the way he did before.

    I've realized I'm codependent, and I'm working on that, by expecting him to meet all of my emotional needs when he was barely equipped to meet any, the damage done to our relationship was significant.

    I've realized that to compensate for his shallow effect, if I wanted more family time, it needed to be active, and exciting.

    Like I said, I'd do almost anything to win him back. Any suggestions or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, the ex wife

    Wow, looks even longer than I thought. If you got through it thanks.

    1. I read it I don't have a lot of time I'm on a break. I'm sorry your experiencing this. Please don't want him. Tell yourself, NO.... absolutely not. Don't go on your feelings now go on your self-respect. Choose to close that chapter and focus on your new life without him. Train your brain without him. He will just keep disrespecting you if he knows you want him back. In time your going to see what I mean as it falls into place. You have beautiful children out of the deal and when your in your next relationship be a good mother, dote on your man as he will do the same for you and a be a good mistress combined. ;) I promise you there's men who love the motherly type as well as loving your naughty side together without going behind your back and being disloyal. Nothing's wrong with you, what he's going through is fleeting and won't last. No self-control. He lost the best. Looks mean nothing, it's the unfading beauty inside that lasts and over-shine. I mean ofcourse take care of yourself but we all have to embrace aging. The right person will see that. When your ex comes running back (because he will) don't get sucked in. He's the father of your two children.. that's it. He will run back when you let go.

      Now call your girlfriends up , put that red lipstick on and slip into a nice fitting dress and enjoy your freedom.

      Good luck.

    2. I really do appreciate your concern, and you taking the time to read, but I believe he has cognitive morality, and was faithful until he viewed me as not worthy of his loyalty. There are always pros and cons. He won't love me as much, or the same, I don't care. I'm sure you'll say trauma bonding, or cognitive dissonance, but truthfully, he is better than other men. I've never met anyone who I thought came anywhere near him in terms of, IDK, capabilities as a human, just in general. If a bomb drops, I want that man by my side. I want him there anyway.

      Obviously, being the lovesick codependent I am, I'd like to know why you think he'll come back? My psychiatrist doesn't, the mistress turned gf is meeting his needs and requiring nothing in return, why would he walk away from that? Of course getting him to walk away from that is my goal...

      I'm aware that he is what he is. He's said to my face many times that he doesn't have emotions like other people...

      I don't care. I just want my husband back. I was happy. My family was happy, and whole. Sigh.

      Anyway, thanks again for reading my psychotic rant, really do appreciate it :)

      -ex wife

    3. Also, it's been over a year, he tells me to move on, that he couldn't be proud to be with me, that he feels no attraction to me...

      I know they say narcissists always come back, but that's not him...

      I've read several things on quora where self proclaimed sociopaths say basically, if you do what I did, they ditch you for good.

      I'm afraid that it's very likely he isn't coming back no matter what I do, even if he is successfully convinced I've moved on.

    4. “I should have allowed it as he did, and kept insisting I didn't want it. He has said that if I had he doesn't think we would have split, and that the affair would have ended quickly, but since I made him leave”
      ie. you weren't reciprocal. That's totally unacceptable.

      “He said many things during that period that seemed like he was weighing options and not falling in love.”
      He was. That’s his version of working out if “Am I in love?”

      “She pays for everything, including a laundry service, and trips out of town....She has made his life extremely easy. He pays for almost nothing, almost all of his non working time is free....”
      “Oh yes I am!”

      “What are my chances?”
      “Was I screwed permanently as soon as I broke his trust?”
      “Is it even possible there's any chance?”
      Nope. And if he did take you back, it would be to make your life unsettled as penance for upsetting his in the first place.

      “by expecting him to meet all of my emotional needs when he was barely equipped to meet any, the damage done to our relationship was significant.
      I've realized that to compensate for his shallow effect, if I wanted more family time, it needed to be active, and exciting.”
      Yep. So that’s a major realisation which would stand you in good stead should you ever get into a relationship with another one.

      "I've read several things on quora where.... sociopaths say basically, if you do what I did, they ditch you for good.”
      Yep. Unless there’s an excellent financial reason not to.

      “and hid the fact that she has to be on drugs for life from him for almost a year. He doesn't like things like that....”
      No he won’t. Which will at least give you the satisfaction of seeing her dumped in her turn when he comes across someone even more useful to his lifestyle, in the future.

      You've learned some good lessons; don't blow it by spending the next three years etc. on this site or any other, bemoaning your mistakes.

    5. Thank you for your honesty. I'm not sure if you're saying there is absolutely zero chance, it that the only chance is making a significant amount of money....

      I assume though, that even that will not earn back his loyalty?

      It's sad. I understand him better now, love him, in some ways even more for the way he is. I wish I could have learned all of this sooner.

      I'm sure I won't be doing that for the next three years, but I'm not going to be using those lessons on someone else.

      Maybe, if I get on with my life, but continue to not see anyone else, if something goes wrong with his current relationship, maybe there's a slight chance I'll have redeemed myself staying single?

      Either way, there's no one else.

      Really though, thanks for the honesty. I knew it all, but it's going to take awhile for it to sink in.

    6. Anon 2:06 hi. I have had some experience with sociopaths and I know it is natural to think what if but you did nothing wrong. I repeat: you did nothing wrong. You are a person with normal expectations . Nothing could have prepared you outside of being a sociopath yourself. Don't change your expectations. Listen to what you *know* is true. It is extremely painful to discover someone is not who you thought but you can leave that pain behind. Don't lose sight of who you know you are.

  24. I'm just a stranger on the internet so if my words don't resonate I understand, but you have your family -- your children. He wants you to move on, he knows you deserve someone to love you properly. That's what he wants. You still have him looking after the kids part time and instilling things that maybe other men can't do, I get that. He's there own father and you enjoyed those qualities about him. You adored your marriage. Grieve that. But embrace a new season. Winter comes ...but spring arrives. A new freshness. Theres going to be other men that can do way more than what your ex gave you. There going to have other qualities that don't compare and you will come to accept this new way and be thankful. You deserve to be loved properly. I'm sorry I know it's tough, because you invested so much into your marriage. Keep on with the counselling and work on accepting that the marriage has turned over to another level - with you - both coparenting your children. You have the best right there. You have so much worth without him. Work on the codependency and give yourself the opportunity to unattach yourself from your past marriage. You have everything on your own already even if you remain single for the rest of your life. You are enough. Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm trying to get you to see a different mode.

    I only read a couple of paragraphs I didn't know he was in a relationship. I should have read on. I missed that part. Hope this makes sense, English is not my default. ;)

    1. So, knowing that, you do not think that he will return when I move on?

      He's told me that, that " you deserve someone to love you the way I love her"

      Is it possible that he really her in a way he couldn't love me?

      I guess it is, but I don't understand why you would marry someone you didn't love as much as you thought you could.

      I think, if he never comes back, I will probably stay alone.

      I agree that looks aren't what matters, but he can be vain and shallow...

      We're all 3 ( him, her, me) 33, and she's by far the oldest looking... I frequently get mistaken for ten years younger, but that could be a setting thing, as I've gone back to school...

      I guess I'm bargaining, hoping that maybe he will find her less attractive with age...

      Everyone gives the same advice. Get over him, move on, you'll be happier...

      But I really think I'm one of those weirdos who won't. I don't want to love anyone else. A year of therapy has done nothing but stop me from crying constantly, knowing he's probably sociopathic doesn't matter to me..

      I think the truth of it may be that we found have been happy if I had known the things I know now then, but I didn't, I screwed up, and I lost him.

      I do adore my children, and my pets. I think I can build a career and have a decent life without him. It's just, I'll always want him more, anyone else would be second besT, and that's not fair.

      Thanks for responding, you're just a stranger on the internet, but that's who I'm spilling my guts to, so thanks :)

    2. hey you, so you think you screwed up and it is your fault that your marriage didn't work? and you want your ex husband back and everything should be like nothing happend? (I didn't read everything in detail so correct me if i got something wrong)... so just use your brain now: what do you think will happen if you two try it again and be a couple again? well your relationship changed, and it will never be the same again. you can say you forget what happend, but you can not make it unhappen and your relationship will never be the same again... so you have two options: either you accept the fact that you can't change the past and that your relationship is different now or you keep dreaming of the past. so let's assume you took the former: what do you think will happen if you get him back and you make a new beginning? well not only your relationship and you ex changed, you changed too. so whatever will happen, i guess you will weigh your words and you will be afraid you screw it up again and you lose him again. i don't know if this is what you want. look I don't care if you deserve someone better or if you go back to him, it's your choice but you really should stop dreaming of the past! the past is the past and you can not get it back, change it or make it unhappen. (i have a friend and it's a quite similar story with her... she and her ex tryed 6 times to start a new beginning... and they failed every single time because she could not stop dreaming of the past and she still is). maybe this will help you to look at it in a rational way, too (and without emotions... I guess you are really listening to your heart right now), so you can figure out your next move...


    3. No.... I don't think it would be like the past at all. That marriage failed.

      I have realized many things, as I mentioned, (I understand not reading it, it's ridiculous) but I focused on his negatives more than mine throughout the marriage. I expected more from him emotionally than anyone should expect from anyone, let alone someone who has shallow effect. I am making enormous changes in my life. If I managed to get him back, my behavior and interactions with him would be very different.

      I don't know if I am listening to my heart, I often do, but this is different. I was listening to my heart when I was angry and broken, and lashing out at him... And of course when I tried to talk him out of leaving, but I am quite prepared to do whatever I can, I'm being as methodical as I can be....
      I spoke a lot about the past, as that's what I have with him, but what I want is a future.

      I would not want the same relationship back for either of our sakes.

      I have read some statistics on couples who remarry, they're actually surprisingly good.

      Unfortunately, considering the way my ex husband deals with his emotions? Because he is likely aspd, I think I'm less likely to get a chance than many people would be. But I will still fight for it.

    4. One can always trust German people to be polite, rational and helpful. 8-)
      Ex-wife, listen to Alice.

      "knowing he's probably sociopathic doesn't matter to me.."
      It should. And there's no 'probably' about it. The guy's a paragon actually, to put up with a co-dependent overweight druggie for 11 years.

      "I think the truth of it may be that we found [could?] have been happy if I had known the things I know now then,"
      "but I didn't, I screwed up, and I lost him...It's just, I'll always want him more, anyone else would be second best,"
      "and that's not fair."
      Life isn't.

    5. Yes, it's could, thanks.

      Druggie, well... Not really, he encouraged it, and it lasted less than a year, but OK...

      I am overweight and codependent, no denying it, but I'm shapely, and it certainly never put him off sex. I'm not obese.

      I meant it wouldn't be fair to a potential future partner...

      I'm aware life isn't fair, and also aware that losing him may have been fair.

      Thanks for reading, I guess.

    6. Hey Anon 5:43,

      I had an affair with a sociopath 3 years ago and after both our marriages dissolved we are now dating.

      I've grown and things are very different. There's a lot of space, it's mainly sex and tenderness. But I am much better at communicating and slowly, slowly I am learning how to hear him.

      I look after my own emotional health. It can be very difficult sometimes, and was especially so when I changed jobs and my whole social network changed.

      My understanding is that as successful I.e.alive adult human organisms, we each have the capacity to provide for our own needs. Focus on doing that.

      Superchick has mentioned grieving and alice talked about letting go. These are key practices. It means feeling pain, but the emotions are temporary. Express them in productive ways where you can. Let yourself love him if that's what your soul is screaming for. Let the energy play out and hear your own voice: there's bound to be a very powerful reason for it.

      Growth is in alignment with our own being. And the amazing thing is one doesn't need to rationalise your own being or try to force it into another mould. Just be and accept that. Create a vision for how you want to be. Things will change in time to realise that vision.

      Alan Watts suggested that love starts where it starts. Love what you can love and it will grow. My advice is to focus not so much on grabbing but always on nourishing yourself.

      I'm pretty sure my journey looks whacky to most people. My rugby captain even wrote me a note to affirm it though: she who chooses her own path needs no map.

      Take care, accept your own worth.

    7. Why should knowing that he is matter to me though? I'm unclear on that...

      Also, he put up with me for 12, and moved on to someone with far more serious drug issues...

      Anyway. Thanks again.

    8. Thank you north, I suppose that's the best plan available to me.

    9. hey ex wife, well you said you accept your relationship will be different as well as your behaviour and your interactions (and hence his behaviour). but why do you want him back? because of the past, because you only know the past. and you lie to yourself if you say you want him back because of the future. but actually that's not possible. you can not, because you do not know how he behaves in the future. well probably it's your imagination of him you love and want back, but I guess you realise that this will lead you to be dissapointed by yourself. and if you say you have big changes in your life, how can you know this guy will still fit in? so you should think about the real reasons you want him back... probably it does not have anything to do with him but you are just afraid you do not find anyone else because you are overweight and co dependent (and maybe not the youngest girl anymore).... and be honest with yourself, you can tell other people lies and varnish facts, but it will not help you! you also said your expectations changed and you will expect less (in an emotional way). you said this to yourself... but do you really mean it? (well i mean if you are dreaming of living in a big house but all you can get is a small flat, you could perfectly live with that, but would your dreams change? no they probably would stay the same) oh and there is this saying don't trust any statistics you didn't fake yourself... and I'm sure these statistics did not include marriages with sociopaths... so you really should take your time thinking about all you want and you future etc and maybe try what north told you (sounds like a good plan).

      hey k@, you just made me smile :)


    10. I'm not afraid of not finding someone else. To be fair, I'm probably not actually overweight anymore, I just have kind of high standards there, and the codependency is something I'm working on, it's formed from the same types of trauma as aspd, so it's not the easiest thing, but it's certainly easier when you're aware of it.

      I've been asked out plenty in the last year, and even tried going on a few dates.

      I want my ex husband back because no one compares to him, I doubt anyone ever will, and even if they did, we wouldn't have a shared history, or children.

      Have you ever been with someone for 12 years? Madly in love with them? Of course people change, but he would still be himself...

      It sounds like the general consensus is that there's not much I can do, except work on myself, and hope. That's fine...

      But telling me that I don't want him back, and that all my self reflection is just, what? Daydreaming? No. It's maturing. We married young. I shouldn't necessarily have lowered my expectations, but I should have adapted them, and made them more realistic.

      I'm not even remotely afraid of not being able to find anyone else... That's not an issue.

      I simply don't want anyone else.

      In the past I may have been in love with an idealized version of him, but I can still remember it mostly as it actually was. The way he was was enough.

      I came here to see if people who are somewhat similar to him thought there was anything I could do. Sounds like the answer is no.

      OK. Got it. Thanks.

      But telling me I don't really love the man I spent over a decade with, don't know him, am wrong about all my self realizations, you couldn't possibly know those things.

      I get it. I screwed my life up. If my husband had been slightly different emotionally, or I had been, maybe we wouldn't be here. Certainly we wouldn't if s series of mistakes hadn't all been made. But they were and we are.

      But don't tell me that I don't love him, or want him for him. Or do, I don't really care.

      That is the nice thing about being a codependent person who is in love with someone like him...

      His opinion matters to me more than just about anything in the world, but I guess other peoples just really don't over time.

      Anyhow. Have a great weekend.

    11. Out of curiosity, do you consider yourself sociopathic???

      Or is "k" the only person who responded who is?

      My ex is a k too. Funny. I certainly appreciate anyone taking the time to respond, but those responses were the only ones of use, that actually answered my questions...

      I'm just wondering, because "k" sounded a lot like the way my ex would have answered... If I'd ever heard him use the paragon, I'd be suspicious.

      And I suppose that ^ it's an answer in itself.

      Was hoping maybe something could be done. It seems like in that area at least, I have been quite unrealistic.

    12. hey, no need to get upset or to justify yourself. but your emphasise a lot that you are not afraid that you don't find someone else and that you had some dates in the last years... seems to me that after all you do care a liiiittle bit about what other people here think about you, don't you? oh and I didn't tell you that you don't love this guy because of him, I just wanted to show you a different perspective, nothing else. look I also didn't tell you that you screwed up your life, I just repeated what you said.. so have a great weekend, too (even if I assume that due to your current situation it won't be that great)

      ... oh just read your 2. post... well you should expect that if you ask a question to everyone in the internet not every answer will suit you (but i guess it's good that at least one person gave you a satisfying answer)... but maybe you should change your attitude and even if you don't like the other answers you could use them (the more different opinions one have the better). and do I consider myself sociopathic? well, I don't know and i don't care because it wouldn't change anything. but just because I don't answer like k or like your ex would, it doesn't mean I couldn't be a sociopath... there are so many different people...


    13. No... I don't care. I have gone on dates only in an attempt to raise my perceived value to my ex husband.

      You're correct, my weekend won't be great, as I don't have my kids this one, but I'll catch up on homework, hit the gym, and have a glass of wine with a girlfriend, so I suppose it could be worse.

      Everyones time is valuable to them, and I am grateful that you've taken some of yours to consider my situation... But that's a very empathic response that I get from most people.

      I've considered those points. A lot. I've tried to convince myself that they were true, so that I could get over it, at least for my kids sake.

      But the truth is, if his face was burned off in a fire, and he could never walk, duck, or work again, I would still love him and want him back.

      It's probably obvious to anyone reading that my options are severely limited. At the least I will have to carry out some version of what you suggest regardless of my feelings. That's basically what I'm doing now.

      I'd just hoped to find frank honesty here, something I didn't realize I loved about my husband until he'd left, and if there were anything I could do, no matter how difficult, or immoral, that someone here might know it. I knew it was a long shot.

      And again, it's not that I don't like your answer, although I'll admit that I've let my self pity have a party this morning in a way that I haven't done in a long time (hopefully will murder that at the gym)

      It's just that those are all things I've considered, I spend a great deal of time self analyzing and punishing, probably far too much time, and I know what I know.

      I'd probably say the same things to someone else as you've said to me...

      I was just hoping for some ruthless battle secrets from the other side. I'm sure I knew there weren't any... Just didn't want to leave a stone unturned.

      I know you didn't say I screwed it up. K@ did. But they're correct. And no matter where the vital mistake was made, ultimately, I made it.

      Thanks Alice. It is appreciated. Sorry if I was snippy. I guess I'm tired of being told to move on... Maybe I'm just a stubborn bitch, but I'm not going to.

      Improve myself as much as I possibly can, yes. But not move on.

    14. Ugh. Fuck not duck. Obviously...

    15. "I was just hoping for some ruthless battle secrets from the other side. I'm sure I knew there weren't any..."

      yes there are. but you'd be unable to carry any of them out.

      "Just didn't want to leave a stone unturned."

      well you could try this as a last resort. use rational logic. lay it out as clear, concise, explicit, logical arguments in a court. the guy is not 'in love'. he has found another buffer against life, that's all. buffers are to a great extent interchangeable. Self-interest rules.
      an example of an argument could be to use the children angle: 'it would be extremely convenient if he lived in the same house again as you need much more time for studies and therefore more quality childcare'. Specify the probable negative developmental and career outcomes in children of divorces where the father is perceived *by them* to care so little about them that he moves out for the sake of free trips etc. You need to emphasise the 'by them' part as he won't have a clue how his children will pay such huge attention to their emotions throughout their lives.
      [BTW there's a 1 in 4 chance each of your children will have CU traits. just thought I'd mention it. it's another good opening argument as to why the children need a stable and very morally enriched childhood]. Him refusing to accept that point should also let you know how actually worthwhile as a parent he is. It's a test. Got the idea?
      Don't mention the 'overwhelming emotions' thing. What you had was a child-raising partnership with a reasonably pleasant psychopath, [to whom you are addicted] who may have just got bored. no point blaming yourself for the atypical levels of dopamine in his brain. [BTW you could state that to him. aka it's *his* neurological issues not yours; so why should the children suffer?]

      "no matter where the vital mistake was made, ultimately, I made it."

      but that's not really your fault is it. it's not like there's a manual you can buy about 'how to get along with psychopaths in a relationship'. But you've already discerned a lot [from your account above]. you're a lot further ahead than the moaners and wailers. no hint of any "I looked into his eyes .... and there was a terrible blankness..." BS.

      never said you were 'obese' BTW.

    16. Alice,
      "hey k@, you just made me smile :)"

      I appreciate your logic.

    17. Ex-wife,
      sorry, forgot to answer that one:
      "Why should knowing that he is matter to me though? I'm unclear on that..."

      matters because he: 'may have just got bored. no point blaming yourself for the atypical levels of dopamine in his brain.'

      So. maybe not anything to do with you and everything to do with what he can and can't manage.

    18. Ex-wife: also commented re your elderly dog story at the appropriate place above.

    19. Haven't read dog stuff yet. Tell me about these battle plans I can't carry out please. I might surprise you. If I was a dog, I'd be a rottweiler. I could probably do anything, no matter how heinous, for my family.

    20. Alice, K,

      Lmao I've been living in Germany for the past lonth and a half (finally actually moved). I just realized tha with their language Germans are forced to be polite, and rational (I don't know about helpful yet). The trick is, to conversate in German YOU MUST listen to the end of the sentence to know what the person is talking about. The gives the illusion of politeness, you don't get cut off. Plus now the person has completely, finished his sentence so you can answer clearly, and rationally and not like a dumbass (as people do when they cut you off in English). All jokes aside though, German syntax is a bitch DX! One word at the end of the sentence can change the whole meaning of the verb used! Fuck trennbare verben!

    21. hey tii, bzw guten morgen! If you think germans are forced to be polite because of the language, you did not met any unpolite people yet, who will cut you off after one word... probably you have to listen to the end of the sentence because you don't have the feeling for the language yet but I can tell you you do not have to listen to the whole sentence to get it (...most times). you know what is a lot meaner than additional words that change the meaning of a sentence? a word that can mean two different things, more precise 2 opposing meanings... for instance "anhalten" (wich can mean to stop or to continue)
      oh and regarding the death penalty... you don't need to be afraid of this here... also getting a lifesentence usually means something like 25 years haha


    22. Zu viele deutsche :D


    23. hahah witzig :) ... wo kommst du her? ... wie auf 9gag, da sind auch 80% deutsche und niemand schreibt was auf deutsch haha


    24. Na ja, fast alle Deutschen, die habe ich kennengelernt, sprachen Englisch. Ich habe kaum problem im Alltag weil kann ich immer Englisch sprechen wenn bin ich stuck. (Just saying... my deutsch is far from perfect)

    25. hey tii, so lang du dich verständigen kannst ist doch alles super! ... so how do you like your new life so far? :)


    26. Ja, ich verstehe fast alles, aber ich möchte zum Universität gehen. Dafür ist nur das Verständnis nicht genug. Bis nächstes Jahr muss ich Deutsch auf C1 Ebene (oder flussig) sprechen, wenn ich will zu des Frühjahrsemester anmelden. Also fick mich DX!

      So far so good. Germans seem to have thought of and planned everything as far as living and taking care of their people (socialism is a much better system). Distances aren't as long as Miami, so you don't need a car and can pretty much get anywhere by U-bahn, bus, or bike. All in all I like it quite a bit.

    27. Alice interessiert an noch einem weiteren deutschen Psychopathen? Haben eine slack Gruppe... Würde dich einladen, brauche aber irgendeine wegwerf E-Mail von dir ;D


      PS, bin aus Nürnberg, er aus Stuttgart und haben Mitglieder weltweit... Ist halt ein bisschen flüssiger dort zu Schatten als hier regelmäßig zu schauen :D Kate ist auch dabei ;)

    28. hey cnaym, haha ist ja echt witzig... feier ich voll dass du auch aus deutschland bist!!! (ich bin übrigens aus münchen)... ja klar warum nicht :)


    29. Tii, magst du auch eine Einladung?


    30. Ja selbstverständlich. Ich weiß nicht was ich anbieten kann aber

  25. Self help for becoming anti-slutsMarch 3, 2017 at 5:44 PM

    Hi all I was wondering if you can help me. I am a 74 year old female and I have obsession to cock. I see the mans bulge in his pants and I automatically have him feed me. I don't know how to inform my doctor about it as I'm quite embarrassed. What do you suggest I do?

  26. I was very good at that many years ago. I was obsessed with search engines and getting the best rank. I was the best and I couldn't tell many. I could find info on anyone with just the right keywords.
    It's funny, what I cared about 5 years ago seems so meaningless now.

    1. Sorry about that, so rude of me to not have hyperlinked it:

      The Necromancer

  27. I'm wondering about reflections and sense of self.

    Our personal self is socially constructed; we play out an image, we receive reflections from others about that image; they play something back to us. We want that play-back to indicate recognition of our worth.

    I think sociopaths do a marvellous job of playing back a reflection of value when they want to hook you. After that, they won't play back anything positive because that will strengthen you and thus comparatively weaken them. They want you to beg for that because it feeds their own self-image.

    Well narcissists or narcissistic sociopaths are worse because their play-back is deliberately negative. You see it so often here. Play back a negative reflection of a person to weaken them. Reflections always take time to process, so it's instant advantage even if the negative reflection is rejected.

    But I think alice is right. A sociopath must drain in this way and it will eventually require more energy than one is willing to give.

    One must find other reflections. But then, of course, one no longer needs the sociopath. And the sociopath needs someone else to reflect worth in the way that suits them best.

    What do you think, Cnaym? I think there are better ways.

    1. Yeah entertaining people all day long and being happy alone in the evening when I'm able to relax... Sounds like me :'D


  28. North hi. I think that is what is so hard to let go of. The things they draw out are more than our social image or construct. They are much deeper and intimate. They reject something sacred. Something they never really understood to begin with. But that is so hard to understand and accept.

    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

  29. Self help for anti-slutsMarch 4, 2017 at 3:59 PM

    I was wondering if you can help me. I'm a 74 year old female. I seem to have an ongoing obsession with cleaning my windows three times a day at same time. I have to wipe them down vigorously and play peeping tom with my boobies when someone walks by my house outside. I show them my package underneath than cover up quickly when they give a second glance over. I am embarrassed to tell my doctor. What do you suggest I do? I was wondering if you can help me. I'm a 74 year old female. I seem to have an ongoing obsession with cleaning my windows three times a day at same time. I have to wipe them down vigorously and play peeping tom with my boobies when someone walks by my house outside. I show them my package underneath than cover up quickly when they give a second glance. I am embarrassed to tell my doctor. What do you suggest I do?

  30. From reading this site, sociopathy is lonelier when you find your kin and pushes me more towards abandonment of this dodgy diagnosis.

  31. Alice and Kate, just letting you know that you both have a psychopath fan enjoying your exchange on this site :D


    1. hey cnaym, I'm honoured my posts are entertaining you :)


    2. Sooo... You'll keep posting on sw? More of a victim community lately :P


    3. hey cnaym, sure I will :D ... as long as I have nothing better to do haha!


  32. I am a spell caster called Dr Ajayi Ololo, I was called upon by the spirits to become the chief priest of this temple when i was 18 years of age, and now i am almost 60 years old man. I am telling this to the world to make them know that this temple has been in existence for years now and we have been durable and truthful to all as we dont want you to come seek for help here and be afraid of what will happen next. Our work here is helping anybody to getting there heart desire, Over here in this temple we grant anything you want us to do for you and when you come to this temple you must see result of our work. NOTE: TO THE ONES THAT HAS BEEN DECEIVED BY THOSE ONLINE SCAMMERS, DO NOT COMPARE THIS GREAT TEMPLE WITH ANY OTHER SPELL CASTER THAT HAS RIPPED YOU OFF YOUR MONEY BY CLAMMING TO BE SPELL CASTERS. THEY ARE ALL FAKE AND SCAMMERS ONLINE THERE THAT WANT TO RIP WERE THEY DID NOT SOW, COME TO OLOLO SPELL CASTING TEMPLE AND GET YOUR HEART DESIRE WITHOUT STRESS. In this temple, we work with the spirits in the spiritual realm and they tell us how to solve any problem that you are facing and also i will want you to NOTE: THAT THIS SPELL CASTING DO NOT HAVE ANY SIDE EFFECT ON ANYONE, BUT JUST TO GET YOUR HEART DESIRE AND BE HAPPY. I Dr Ajayi Ololo urge you all that has the following problem 1.} We heal barrenness in women and disturbing menstruation 2.} Get you marriage to the lover of your choice 3.} Guarantee you win the troubling court cases & divorce no matter how what stage 4.} Ensure success in work and business 5.} Mental illness & bewitched 6.} Can?t sleep at night or walking at night 7.} Recover stolen property and whereabouts of people that hurt you. 8.} Bring supernatural luck into 9.} Extreme protection for those doing dangerous jobs like security guards, Bank manager, cash transporters, To mention but a few.11. Get your scam money back 12.} Bring back lost lover, even if lost for a long time 13.} Remove bad spells from homes, business & customer attraction etc. 14.} Get promotion you have desired for a long time at work or in your career.16.} Remove the black spot that keeps on taking your money away 17. Find out why you are not progressing in life and the solution 18.} Eliminate in family fights 19.} Ensure excellent school grades even for children with mental disabilities 20.} Stop your marriage or relationship from breaking apart 21.} I destroy and can send back the Nikolos if requested 22.} . COME HERE AND SOLVE ALL YOUR PROBLEMS HERE AND GET ALL YOUR HEART DESIRES HERE WITHOUT ANY-SIDE EFFECT ON IT. ANY KIND OF PROBLEM YOU ARE FACING IN LIFE SEND YOUR EMAILS TO: . to get it solved in the next 5 to 6 hours.

    1. Maybe you can help ex wife anon with her problem

    2. ... she could also burn the money or throw it out of the window then... would be pretty much the same haha ��


    3. Lmao, straight up. Might as well include himself in the "they are all fake scammers online that want to reap* what they did not sow"

    4. Thanks guys :p

      I may desperately want to rekindle a marriage with a sociopath I've upset, but I'm not THAT stupid. Thanks for thinking of me though ;)

    5. Hello Tii,
      Most gratifying to know you have, at an admirably young age, done the worthwhile, sensible, logical and completely rational thing and moved to Germany. It was a concern to think you might have had to ruin the rest of your life in that den of narcissistic iniquity called the US of A. There are few of us, and it certainly pays to be in parts of the world where the beer is excellent, the food is real and not full of chemicals, the towns can be walked around and the apartments are cheap and able to be fogged out in google streetview.
      never go back. 8-) 8-)

    6. K,
      Definitely, I do not regret it one bit. And yep, everything is pretty much as you put it. To be honest I expected people to be full of prejudice cause I'm black. So far the only thing I've noticed is old German people just staring at me in the U-bahn looking like "Wow he's normal, his pants aren't sagging anf he isn't like the music videos".

    7. 8-)
      ""Wow he's normal, his pants aren't sagging anf he isn't like the music videos".

      sort of normal. LOL. on the outside...8-)

    8. Lol yah I guess that'd be more correct. But in the end, who really is normal on the inside. That would make for a boring world.

  33. I am a spell caster called Dr Ajayi Ololo, I was called upon by the spirits to become the chief priest of this temple when i was 18 years of age, and now i am almost 60 years old man. I am telling this to the world to make them know that this temple has been in existence for years now and we have been durable and truthful to all as we dont want you to come seek for help here and be afraid of what will happen next. Our work here is helping anybody to getting there heart desire, Over here in this temple we grant anything you want us to do for you and when you come to this temple you must see result of our work. NOTE: TO THE ONES THAT HAS BEEN DECEIVED BY THOSE ONLINE SCAMMERS, DO NOT COMPARE THIS GREAT TEMPLE WITH ANY OTHER SPELL CASTER THAT HAS RIPPED YOU OFF YOUR MONEY BY CLAMMING TO BE SPELL CASTERS. THEY ARE ALL FAKE AND SCAMMERS ONLINE THERE THAT WANT TO RIP WERE THEY DID NOT SOW, COME TO OLOLO SPELL CASTING TEMPLE AND GET YOUR HEART DESIRE WITHOUT STRESS. In this temple, we work with the spirits in the spiritual realm and they tell us how to solve any problem that you are facing and also i will want you to NOTE: THAT THIS SPELL CASTING DO NOT HAVE ANY SIDE EFFECT ON ANYONE, BUT JUST TO GET YOUR HEART DESIRE AND BE HAPPY. I Dr Ajayi Ololo urge you all that has the following problem 1.} We heal barrenness in women and disturbing menstruation 2.} Get you marriage to the lover of your choice 3.} Guarantee you win the troubling court cases & divorce no matter how what stage 4.} Ensure success in work and business 5.} Mental illness & bewitched 6.} Can?t sleep at night or walking at night 7.} Recover stolen property and whereabouts of people that hurt you. 8.} Bring supernatural luck into 9.} Extreme protection for those doing dangerous jobs like security guards, Bank manager, cash transporters, To mention but a few.11. Get your scam money back 12.} Bring back lost lover, even if lost for a long time 13.} Remove bad spells from homes, business & customer attraction etc. 14.} Get promotion you have desired for a long time at work or in your career.16.} Remove the black spot that keeps on taking your money away 17. Find out why you are not progressing in life and the solution 18.} Eliminate in family fights 19.} Ensure excellent school grades even for children with mental disabilities 20.} Stop your marriage or relationship from breaking apart 21.} I destroy and can send back the Nikolos if requested 22.} . COME HERE AND SOLVE ALL YOUR PROBLEMS HERE AND GET ALL YOUR HEART DESIRES HERE WITHOUT ANY-SIDE EFFECT ON IT. ANY KIND OF PROBLEM YOU ARE FACING IN LIFE SEND YOUR EMAILS TO: . to get it solved in the next 5 to 6 hours.

  34. Death penalty for criminal psychopaths should be forbidden. To legally execute people that (seriously) talk about their own deaths like its just "another adventure", it should be seen as some sort of "sign" of deep (hidden) insanity, even if these folks (on the surface) appear to perfectly know right from wrong. Why is not the old concept of moral insanity seen as valid? Because that is what these people are: UNSANE.

    1. One is rationally sane but morally disengaged. Due to atypical neurology.
      Talking about one's death pragmatically is not a sign of deep hidden insanity but of innate fearlessness and lack of anxiety. Due to atypical neurology.

    2. "Unsane" XD! I like this term.

    3. To talk about death like its no big deal, like a vacation, often shows that reality has left the building. Moral insanity is "twisted reality", not just a flaw when it comes to see right/wrong the way others do.

    4. Anon,
      If you could enlighten me as to why death should holf more meaning to me (or anyone else) I'd appreciate it. I wasn't this body before, and I won't be it later. Whether or not I die today or in 90 years, I (along with anybody else) will end up dust. I don't see why it should be a big deal that it's going to happen eventually. I don't believe in Heaven, Hell, or an overseeinhg God, so I don't see what I should be afraid of or be looking forward to. If anything I'm more afraid of the pain that I might endure (torture, paralyzed from the neck down so essentially torture, or waking up in the morning and finding out I've turned horridly ugly so essentially torture) while alive. Insanity, in all honesty sounds like freedom (you don't give a shit about what's happening in daily life), death sounds like relief (you don't have to worry or give a shit about anything else as far as I know).

    5. hey anon, "To talk about death like its no big deal, like a vacation, often shows that reality has left the building." I think it is exactly the opposite. most people can't imagine that there is nothing after death and that they just stop existing, that the only thing that happens is the decay of their bodies. there is no soul going anywhere or something like that... how could this be? our "souls" are just electrical impulses and if they would go anywhere while we are dying there would be a transfer of engery measurable. I guess they can not cope with these toughts, that's why they often believe in god or heaven etc. even if they do not believe in god an religious things, they still believe (even if they do not admit it) that something is happening (to their soul) after their death, probably to manage the fear of the incomprehensible. so they are the ones that have a false picture of reality and hence are kind of under a delusion.


    6. Psychopaths are hidden within themselves, and not even death really enters that place. That´s why such people are so "relaxed" on death row in jail. And that really should be the reason why capital punishment for socios should be abolished. People without moral brakes don´t have such brakes, why is that handicap so denied? And they are not evil: they lack good.

    7. Anon,
      I see what you're trying to say but no. I do not lack good. On a daily basis people will tell me how nice, generous, polite and all this shit I am. Especially adults and elderlies (young'ins don't really look at that). It's not lacking good. What makes it good? At that point it's a matter of morality. I do not do the things I do because I think they're right or wrong. I do them because that's what I feel like doing at that moment. Whether that's right or wrong depends on you... but who are you to judge what's right or wrong?

    8. I wrote about criminal sociopaths on death row, extreme people..

    9. Funny reading here, "what a psychopath thinks" through the projection of emotional lenses.

      Maybe find one and ask. Probably get a different answer from each.


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