Friday, May 20, 2016

A girl has no name

What happens to people with personality disorders to make them the way they are? Speaking from personal experience, but also saying something that can easily generalize much more broadly, there is a genetic component but it is also triggered. When you are little, instead of developing a sense of your own identity, you learn to think of yourself as a cipher. You do it because there is no advantage to you in being a particular someone (much less the particular person you are), and every advantage in being whatever the situation calls for, in blending in with the background, in being the strings that pull other people rather than being a person yourself. Kierkegaard speaks of something similar:

For every man is primitively planned to be a self, appointed to become oneself; and while it is true that every self as such is angular, the logical consequence of this merely is that it has to be polished, not that it has to be ground smooth, not that for fear of men it has to give up entirely being itself, nor even that for fear of men it dare not be itself in its essential accidentality (which precisely is what should not be ground away), by which in fine it is itself. 
***
[But when the sense of self is lost] he may nevertheless (although most commonly it becomes manifest) be perfectly well able to live on, to be a man, as it seems, to occupy himself with temporal things, get married, beget children, win honor and esteem -- and perhaps no one notices that in a deeper sense he lacks a self. About such a thing as that not much fuss is made in the world; for a self is the thing the world is least apt to inquire about, and the thing of all things the most dangerous for a man to let people notice that he has it. The greatest danger, that of losing one's own self, may pass off as quietly as if it were nothing; every other loss, that of an arm, a leg, five dollars, a wife, etc., is sure to be noticed.
***
But while one sort of despair plunges wildly into the infinite and loses itself, a second sort permits itself as it were to be defrauded by "the others." By seeing the multitude of men about it, by getting engaged in all sorts of worldly affairs, by becoming wise about how things go in this world, such a man forgets himself, forgets what his name is (in the divine understanding of it), does not dare to believe in himself, finds it too venturesome a thing to be himself, far easier and safer to be like the others, to become an imitation, a number, a cipher in the crowd.

So a personality disordered person might lose their sense of self, but it can actually be as empowering as it is tragic. Without a self, there isn't the same potential for ego hurt -- we no longer live a life motivated largely by fear. The most vulnerable and valuable part of us has already died. What is left is a cipher, a thing that can take the form and shape of whatever is most convenient in the moment.

GAME OF THRONES SPOILER ALERT

So it's with interest that I wonder where Game of Thrones is going with the Arya plot line. The quick summary is that she is a noble born girl hell bent on revenge for the death of her parents. She's become an accomplished killer, but has also gotten caught up in this sort of cult in which she is being asked to become "no one" -- to leave her old identity behind and instead have the capability of wearing any number of masks and appearing like any number of different people, a lethal assassin. Repeatedly she is asked what her name is, and repeatedly she must answer "a girl has no name" as part of her further depersonalization.

In the books, regarding Arya it says "She could feel the hole inside of her where her heart had been" and "She would be no one if that is what it took. No one had no holes inside of her."

This video explains the psychological changes she undergoes, and how she can hardly function like a person because she cannot trust, all she knows is killing and survival.

165 comments:

  1. FIRST!!!

    WOO-HOO!!!

    CAPRICORNS RULE!!!

    ~Vegas

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  2. I believe sociopaths, specifically because they become who they are, have experienced trauma. My sister is one.

    I have memories from the moments when she was very young, when she started being bitter and abusive. She'd steal from the market at an extremely young age. And be abusive towards me. Since the day she was born she watched my narcissist father treat my mother terribly. Everytime she gets into a fight with my mother she brings it up. She shouts and says it's her fault and that she's gone through terrible things and that she'll never recover. It is quite obvious that she likes blaming everyone for everything even if it's not their fault and actually enjoys fights and wants to make other people feel bad about themselves. She even laughs at the worst moments, like when my mother is pissed as hell. But that doesn't erase the fact that there's truth in what she says.

    She's unfeeling, bored, lacks sense of self, or any long term goal. She isn’t rather bright, so she’ll probably end up doing nothing great. Being a sociopath and a stupid person at the same time can result in looking like an unfeeling three year old. That's what she is. People who are trumatised in early childhood never grow. They're eternal children. They’ll continue playing games for the rest of their lives. And view the world as a playground. They'll cover themselves up with seriousness, but will secretly laugh under their hand. It's sad for me to realise that all the abuse I experienced from her was a game, but it’s true. And I in my turn have become somewhat like her, and like my father.

    If I had single word to describe my sister it'd be silly. Other people like guys who don’t see her on a daily basis, may romanticise her as much as they want. But what I see is a plain silly person. I wonder how she stands being herself. She has a small mind, for which only small people will fall for. If I could feel bad for her, I would.

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    1. Continuation
      Recently we had a talk. I asked her some questions. Of course there was an introduction it wasn’t like an interview. One of them was were you always like this? She told me “No. I wasn’t. I remember when I was really young that I hurt when mom hurt and I felt bad for her. It’s just that I can’t feel now. It’s like there somethings that blocks it. I can’t afford it. I mean it sounds so impractical to feel other peoples pain with them.” And what if she is lying? I dont believe so. Though I do not cross it out. If she is answering truthfully though, she’s definetely right. Cause a child can never lie to themselves about their feelings. Except if they’ve been taught to do so.

      She has lost her most valuable part. For the sake of not feeling? Of having nothing to loose? Maybe. She does have a revengeful character. Is it revenge for what she experienced? Does she feel it’s the right thing to do? I believe she envies me, always did. That’s why she was so cruel. She thinks I’m prettier smarter more impressive... She was extremely jealous of my freedom in expression when I was younger, simply me being human. She punished me for that and now when I’m alone, I'll be mechanical. A robot. Feelings are just for the show, I put up great shows. Get things done. Live. Breath. Practice. Read. Just the way I touch things, close cupboards, walk. It’s mechanical. Nothing more than what's needed. When someone tells me they love me, when someone hugs me there is an error. When someone laughs and when someone cries, there is anger. I hate facial expressions of surprise. They take so much time. I'll fix things, I won’t spend time being human.

      We're not the same. I don’t know what I am. I’ve indentified with pd’s. Everytime it’s true But after a while those things become my identity and limit me. Everytime I find I don’t fit in those boxes. My sister does. I don’t. Maybe it’s because I’m a creation of people with different disorders all at once. What I know for sure is that I dont have an identity. I believe the worst thing for someone is to not be self aware. Having no identity and not being self aware and lying to the self that is what narcissists do. That is what my father has done and I don’t believe he even realises.

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    2. "When someone tells me they love me, when someone hugs me there is an error."

      This resonates. I had thought my heart was mechanical; I didn't feel, I thought. Feelings were blocked somewhere in my chest. They existed; I couldn't recognise them.

      That is, until **-* threw my frozen heart into the blazing sun. That changed things!

      "What I know for sure is that I don't have an identity."
      How do you experience this? Do you feel there's something underneath, something lost or trapped? Or is it a vacuity?

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    3. I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that you had feelings but they were frozen until you met the sociopath and he made you feel? Or that he made them freeze and then unfreeze for some reason.
      "What I know for sure is that I don't have an identity." By this I mean that I don't feel it. I didn't realise I didn't have one until I started socializing. I always felt like I was observing people and being odded and sometimes annoyed by them. When I started socializing with them I started to act like them. I feel like I'm ajusting them to myself and not myself to them. I act accordingly cause I dont have something of my own that would interfere. And I find myself taking up different personalities at times until I feel they become boring. It's mostly presenting what others want, not what I want, I don't want something. By giving someone what he wants I become something that is desired. And so I gain control. Right now and every day I feel vacuity. But when I remember myself much younger I feel there was something. But that is anyway how I feel whatever past self I think about. And I'll feel that way next year about the self I am now. I think I'm just imagining it was something maybe I lost nothing. I'm keeping the possibility if me having been someone when I was really small because I dont have many memories from back then. I feel like I may have multiple character but not one identity. There is nothing that exists in me that leads the way other than my need to be on top. Also I cannot say things straightforwardly ever. :)

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    4. All of your questioning is a good thing. It means your aware. When you say you can't say things straightforwardly I'm curious do you think things differently than you say them? If so have you tried practicing saying things they way you think them? Even if it's not to anyone. Even if it's to the mirror. I believe finding oneself is like retracing your steps. Working in reverse. Undoing habits that work against or bury truth.

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    5. No I don't think things differently than I say them. I just have trouble saying things like facts. I feel like I have to make introductions, talk about details then make it general. I think I'm just afraid of facing raw facts and my raw self. By saying things sideways they can sound nicer. It's also my basic tool of manipulation and of confusion. So maybe I'm used to doing that, and so I cant even say things straightforwradly when I'm not lying. With my therapist it's like looking for treausure. I think I devalue other people a lot so even if someone is nice and wants to help, and I want to understand the truth about myself if there is such thing. Even then only some time has to pass after which I will start playing rolls, roles and feeling like I am being challenged. So I might end up angry at that person, but that person wont notice cause I've switched to a role so he won't bother the "me".

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    6. I feel like more I try to be straightforward the emptier I sound. Like a bed without covers.

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    7. You believe you sound cold when you are straightforward? And there is no way to hide that coldness? And that is unacceptable? But if that is what you are right now I think it's a good place to start.

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    8. Not cold. Except if I'm saying something that indicates lack of empathy. I believe that when I am straightforward I'm exposing my opinions or myself to another person. And I'm not sure what that person will see, if that person will see anything, what it will mean, will I be misunderstood, will the person go away, will I lose, will it mean anything at all? I also don't see the reason to open up to people. Specifically people with whom I interact in my everyday life or who I am confusing on purpose. Anyway I'm not sure how I sound, but the way I feel when I'm at least trying to be straightforward like right now is I think a mixture of pain dissapointment and emptyness and a great feeling of what am I doing and why? Can doing something that makes me feel yucky be a good thing to do?

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    9. I also lack a sense of self. It's part of the schizoid personality disorder. What you're writing sounds similar to the characteristics of this disorder. I believe, that the underdeveloped ego springs from a lack of real and authentic relationships to other people. At least in my case. I do have acquaintances, some of them consider me as a good friend, but because they're not interacting with "me" but with a mechanical ego version of me , responsible for every day life, I don't feel a connection to them. This mechanical ego is a mask, admittedly not a very good one, not as deceptive as that of a sociopath, but it works well enough for me. A side effect of never getting involved is a flattening of affects. I don't experience any strong emotion whatsoever which makes me rather apathetic and indifferent to my surroundings. What helps against this indifference are relations to others, so I'm working on 'being real' with people, instead of presenting them another mask. But it honestly is harder than I expected, I either forget to do it and fall back into old patterns or I end up getting defensive and aggressive. Funny how that works. Thoughts? Similar experiences?

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    10. Hmmm, I don't think so. I have a "friend" who is a schizoid and I'm nothing like her. She could've written what you wrote. But not me. I don't have all the traits of that disorder, which are pretty basic and my not having them puts me into totally different boxes. Like I have this huge need for praise and admiration. And I love being with people as long as I feel and am being treated like the greatest person in the room. My being fake with people is a bit different from yours. Cause I'm trying to seduce. I'm always trying to seduce people I cant stop doing it. ALmost all of my social interactions are me trying to seduce, persuade, anything at all other than being straightforward and showing the emptyness inside me, like why would I even show that. I'm not dressing myself up just so people will leave me alone, I'm dressing up so people will compliment on my clothes and like me. And I am not good willed. You may be thinking that I sound narcissistic now. And I wouldn't be ashamed at all to be a narc. But everytime I gently let my body slide into that box, I get stuck and deformed and I once again realise nope that's not my box. Like I said previously maybe I'm nowhere. :)

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    11. And just so I know because that girl I know becomes really defensive when I attempt to learn things about her or recommend things like a song or debate on a subject she becomes totally defensive and flushes and gets pissed at me if I prove her wrong as if I am the one who cant support their arguments. And then she won't talk about it ever again even if a month had passed. Is that a schizoid way of acting and if yes why does it happen, or is it just her.

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    12. "I’m not sure what you mean. Do you mean that you had feelings but they were frozen until you met the sociopath and he made you feel? Or that he made them freeze and then unfreeze for some reason."
      The former. I will return to this.

      You said above "I believe, that the underdeveloped ego springs from a lack of real and authentic relationships to other people. " I was very isolated. Enclosed animal that I was, I climbed trees, climbed onto the house roof unaware that I was physically trying to escape a predator (my narc-with-C-PTSD husband.)

      A super-intense work situation flooded me with dopamine and adrenalin, the benefit being I finally knew I wanted to change my life. Enter **-*.

      "Maybe it’s because I’m a creation of people with different disorders all at once. What I know for sure is that I dont have an identity."
      In my case, my father is a narc, my mother and sister more or less covert narcs. The crux of the impact for me was lack of self identity; both parents meshed their identities with mine. The problem was I didn't learn to differentiate myself (although I identified more strongly with my father. I was enmeshed with them.

      But clearly I have a self, 'cause **-* found it. And now I'm developing it. *Breathes a deep and free sigh of relief*

      7 June, 2014: You conquered corners of my landscape I didn't know existed. You've left, and I am wasted, but one day there'll be flowered meadows in this wilderness. Your love cleaned my soul, purged me.

      It astounds me that my brain spontaneously created that vision and is slowly, slowly achieving it. I feel **-* showed me what I was capable of in terms of relating to others; he stretched it right out of me and it was very painful when he snapped the rubber band, but suddenly I have the experience and awareness of what it is to be a feeling person with my own desires.

      Most importantly, I know now I have the capacity to fulfil my own needs and desires.

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    13. "I just have trouble saying things like facts. I feel like I have to make introductions, talk about details then make it general. I think I'm just afraid of facing raw facts and my raw self. By saying things sideways they can sound nicer."
      I used to speak very softly or quickly because I assumed I wouldn't be heard... then of course made it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

      I make a point of speaking slowly and clearly now. I take an equal place at the negotiation table. This is working very nicely for me; it's giving respect to my own self and setting an expectation of respect in return.

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    14. You said above "I believe, that the underdeveloped ego springs from a lack of real and authentic relationships to other people. " I didnt say that actually :P That was another anon who commented later. I'm anon 1:59, 2:02, 3:50, 8:21, 8:24, 9:19, 2:48, 3:36. :)

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    15. Again I'm the anon from on top I'll give myself a name for now I'm Confused.
      "But clearly I have a self, 'cause **-* found it. And now I'm developing it." That is an interesting thing to say, can you analyse that?

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    16. All these anon posts are definitely confusing me, lol! Nice to meet you, Confused. It does help when people sign their posts :)

      ""But clearly I have a self, 'cause **-* found it. And now I'm developing it."That is an interesting thing to say, can you analyse that?"
      Ok. Perhaps "personhood" is a better term in my case. I did perceive myself and have a particular sense of agency before he hit the scene.

      A coach once told me a particular athlete I played with (she'll be an Olympian soon) has domain-specific confidence. She's confident in her sport. I'm starting to wonder if the self might have various domains or flavours.

      What I meant was that I had no conception of what I wanted (and particularly not what I wanted beyond what my father wanted), what my interests are. No idea of how to be independent, even though I have always been very independent since he didn't actually meet my childhood needs. Crazily ironic, isn't it. There was a flailing desperation for my father - and, naturally as an adult, for proxies of him. Enmeshment.

      In Zen, they say when the student is ready, the master appears. I was ready.

      **-* has some similarities and some differences to my father. In MBTI terms, Dad is ISTP and **-* is ISFP. Similarly adventurous, pragmatic style. Both dark triad. It was the difference that really slayed me - **-* opened me up. I relaxed with him. For the first time in my life, I wasn't arguing my own existence. He was pleasant to be with; funny and exciting. I'm struggling with words; there was no linear realisations here - this is a mixture of sense-making and remembrance of the raw experience.

      It's like as a child grasping tight and hanging on to whatever wild fucking ride my father was taking was the way for me to survive. That was it. And it was so important, that's all I was. This being that became very adept at working out what someone else wanted, flexing to that and hanging the fuck on.

      That's what I was. I couldn't see anything beyond that. Didn't do anything beyond that. I could visualise it later: my brainstem gripping ultra tight like the angriest fist.

      I relaxed with **-* and felt pleasure. Some hidden, lost part of me that was really me felt something. Of course **-* wrecked me, but that self, that me, that I had squished and flattened in preference to the perceived survival need of moulding to my father was not ever gonna fit the mould again.

      Phew. This is the first time I'm really drawing that narrative together. It's still unfolding really, I'm still growing. It was only a couple of months ago that I even found the fleshy channel through which **-*'s arrows flew and healed that over.

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    17. Hello Confused, I'm the schizoid anon. I tend to get defensive and react similar to your schizoid friend when I feel a person wants to get close to me, in particular when one is asking me questions about myself and I can see that they're paying close attention to what I say. But then again it depends on the person. To me this defensive attitude normally means that I care what the person thinks of me or that I like that person. It's common that in order to hide this "insecurity" I appear more cold than usual. So maybe she likes you?
      When you say that "she doesn't talk about it for a month" do you mean she avoids the topic or she is angry with you? If it's the latter I can't relate to that. I'm not really resentful, even if someone is doing me wrong. I might feel a short wave of anger, but it vanishes in the next moment. How about you?

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    18. She avoids it.
      If it means that I wouldn't have imagined it but it makes sense for her to care what I think. She has told me at times randomly that she is scared that I think she is stupid.
      When someone is doing me wrong I might get pretty angry. I become passive agressive and it might take me some time to get out of that cloud of anger. I feel like I cant let it go until the roles are switched and the other person is angry and hurt and I'm relaxed. But when I do calm down I leave it alone ,though I have the tendency to remember it forever and bring it up if I want the other person to feel bad. I've done that with things that happened in kindergarden.
      - Confused

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    19. Schizoid Anon

      If you ever hurt someone who you like, intentionally or not, would you acknowledge it? If they wanted to hear an apology would you give it?

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    20. North
      "that self, that me, that I had squished and flattened in preference to the perceived survival need of moulding to my father"

      I'm still not sure that he found your self. But for sure he found your vulnerability. Your vulnerability is what you feel your parents didn't give you. And your father didn't give you your freedom of choice. A choice to have your own interests? To be yourself perhaps? Your independence as an existence?

      “For the first time in my life, I wasn't arguing my own existence. He was pleasant to be with; funny and exciting. “

      You maybe felt that your father was restricting while on the other side the sociopath was pleasant and funny. He opened you up and relaxed you.

      You maybe saw him as what you feel nobody gave you and taking it from him would make you complete.

      “It's like as a child grasping tight and hanging on to whatever wild fucking ride my father was taking was the way for me to survive. That was it. And it was so important, that's all I was. “

      Did you feel like you were your fathers extension? And that finally the sociopath gave you a chance to be a self. And not be ashamed of that.

      You totally found your vulnerability. In other words gave you what he found you most wanted. (And then of course took it away. ).

      I just cant make the connection that I think you’re making between things we like and what we are. He gave you freedom maybe and a chance to be yourself? Or are you trying to say he allowed you to uncover that self your father had put under his shadow.
      -Confused

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    21. "Schizoid Anon

      If you ever hurt someone who you like, intentionally or not, would you acknowledge it? If they wanted to hear an apology would you give it?"
      Yeah please answer that. The girl I know is slightly sadistic so it might have to do with it but tell me if you do this too:
      She doesn't apologise and tells me she doesn't remember it or she didn't know she was doing what she did. And somehow, now i cant tell you how its complicated :p, I learnt that she remembered and that she was just enjoying herself alone with the mere idea that she only knows it. She does that a lot. I think that maybe she feels powerless with me so that was her way of feeling a bit in control of me. Or like she has something I want. Or she is only sadistic and enjoys confusing. It might have nothing to do with schizoids in general but who knows.
      - Confused

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    22. When I hurt someone I know theoretically that it is my fault, or at least I know that the person is of the opinion that it is my fault. And this is the problem. Because I more often than not don't acknowledge or more like I don't 'feel' that I did something bad/wrong. It seems like their fault to feel bad about a mean thing I said. Words are just words. I said them because I knew they would hurt, not because I am convinced that I'm right. For me it feels ultimately futile to get angry about such a thing.
      And yes, I would apologize if this meant the person would calm down. But it honestly wouldn't be a heartfelt apology and it often happens that minutes after such an apology I continue to be hurtful. This behaviour of mine isn't really fair, I am aware of that. So, the more I like a person, the more I try to control myself but nevertheless they can end up getting more hurt than people I don't care about because they get more of a reaction out of me than someone else, although a negative one.

      Confused, if the girl enjoys doing this it seems to me another indicator that she likes you in some way or another. My above described behaviour is normally nothing I enjoy, it feels natural to do this, it's an instinctive reaction. When I enjoy it there's not only the ulterior motive of keeping a person at a distance involved, but also the fun of interacting with someone I'm interested in. I still 'need' the distance but here it's also a way of hiding my interest and not revealing too much about my real intentions while at the same time I can come (in a weird way) closer to this person. Not acknowledging any wrongdoing and feeling schadenfreude about it is maybe a way to prolong the 'interaction'?
      I'm not sure if this is sadism in my case, or more of an unconventional way to try to relate to people.

      Schizoid anon




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    23. "I still 'need' the distance but here it's also a way of hiding my interest and not revealing too much about my real intentions while at the same time I can come (in a weird way) closer to this person."

      And what are the real intentions?

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    24. "Did you feel like you were your fathers extension? And that finally the sociopath gave you a chance to be a self. And not be ashamed of that. "

      Yes, that.


      "You totally found your vulnerability. In other words gave you what he found you most wanted. (And then of course took it away. )."

      I don't understand vulnerability in the sense other people do. I think we are bundles of neuro-patterns. A "vulnerable" spot is something that induces fear or sadness - I suppose - but this to me is just a message. That pain or fear is a response, an adaptation to something that happened previously, something I ought to be aware of.

      So by hitting these spots, **-* showed me they existed and then I listened to their information. This is an amazing experience. You can incorporate that information into how you choose to live. This is absolutely regarding yourself with full respect. I learnt to do this while playing rugby: I learnt to look at my fear and embrace it until it dissolved. Then I was capable of playing with liberation and abandon: complete freedom.

      **-* isn't responsible for my story. It's not a matter of victory; anyone who has achieved anything in life knows that success is momentary or at best seasonal and life flows on. I create my own narrative.

      If we consider fear or sadness or pain as things to be avoided in themselves, we miss their adaptive purpose. They are fingers pointing to the problem; regarding them as the threat in themselves means we cut off the finger and lose their valuable direction.

      This is why I think feelings are what gives flavour to the self, which is as I said is a bundling of neuro-patterns; neural pathways. That's what the brain is and the neural network is distributed right through the body. The deeper we can integrate our pathways, the more integrated we are as beings and the more adaptive we become because we have more open access to information that informs behaviour.

      This approach is rich, but it takes time. It takes time to process emotional information and it takes time to change neural pathways. But it's worth the investment.

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    25. The real intentions are the inner wish for some sort of connection. Vague, isn't it. You can't expect me to give you another monlogue if you don't have to offer something interesting yourself. :P

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    26. If you want to "win" people that are not really worth it, than keep this mentality. Don't show remorse or regret and dont apologize. Losers and fakers will respect you even after you screw them too. If you want real, quality people in your life, then show some sincerity and don't be afraid of being honest & fair. If anyone rejects you because of your "weaknesses" (not playing games and admitting mistakes) then be glad you were spared a loser instead of turning into one.

      That's all I got. It's true even if it isn't interesting.

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    27. Don't worry, true and interesting. And I know that this mentality is narrow minded and ultimately futile. I won't gain anything from solely superficial relationships.

      Now, to the real intentions. I will give you an example, because those intentions obviously vary from person to person. There was this girl I liked. We went to school together and she was very popular, but her well liked behaviour was just a facade, hiding her empty core. She enjoyed making fun of weak people, in a very subtle way so no one really noticed. In some way I identified with her, although I couldn't relate to the bullying. I befriended some of her most immediate friends so she would take notice of me. And it worked. We tiptoed around each other for a while, watching the other one in his ways. To have someone look so closely at you I found both electrifying and unnerving. So I lashed out at her, telling her to stop watching me like a creep. This startled her, as she had rightfully so suspected a mutual interest. But with nevr really talking about it, it was easy to let it seem like an illusion of her mind. I actually really liked her, the only person I wanted to get close to in those school days. I liked her so much that I wanted her to ignore me again, of fear of getting too involved. I wanted to be part of her life but without her being a part of mine, just a bystander at a safe distance.

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    28. Win / lose, true / false, good / bad are false dichotomies.

      Crystallisation offers the seduction of control - which is an illusion - but it's real value is learning: the basis of new hypotheses.

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    29. I've had the fear of rejection keep me back from pursuing people I was interested in before. Turned out it was not a fear of rejection but rather a good subconscience read of the other person which prevented me from falling prey to their facade.

      I'd still go for them if they dropped the facade and wère honest at least with me. They prefer their delusions of power over sincere affection so their loss.

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    30. "I've had the fear of rejection keep me back from pursuing people I was interested in before. Turned out it was not a fear of rejection but rather a good subconscience read of the other person which prevented me from falling prey to their facade. "

      Yeah, that shizizz is powerful.

      "I'd still go for them if they dropped the facade and wère honest at least with me."
      I play with these ideas too because there's benefit to be had. It's a matter of communication and negotiation; sometimes there's harmony where both benefit and other times the notes are jangled and it's time to pull back. Like a dance.

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  3. Your post makes sense to me, ME.

    There's a fascinating equilibrium we each play with; a balance of self-expression and synthesis of the mirroring the world offers. The mirror is important; it offers so much information about our status in the tribe, and what our opportunities and constraints are.

    I'm learning the mirror is a tool and not me as such.

    Society as context and not constraint.

    Alan Watts again:
    The meaning of being alive is just being alive... It's so plain and so obvious and so simple. And yet everyone rushes around in a big panic as if it were necessary to achieve something beyond themselves.

    Christopher S Hyatt:
    Become who you are. There are no guarantees.

    These concepts have been so liberating once applied. The underlying idea for me is that as an adult, I am a successful organism, adequately equipped to meet my own survival needs. I can both trust myself fully and enjoy myself for that fact.

    I'm interested in understanding how others perceive social reflections. How do they affect you? How do you use them?

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    1. Rushing around. We are all taught this is what we should do. I have no use for it any longer. I have stopped.I have dared myself to be still. I feel like myself. I feel like I'm not feeding a machine. I feel like I could exist outside of myself. It bothers people when you stop rushing around.

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    3. Anon 7;02 i like your comment

      Hiya all you fun lovin' guy's n gall's

      this idea of identity can be a tricky one,
      the reality is that we are always who we are, at any given moment, in response to and in relation to that moment.
      we all have some idea of ourselves as having a sense of fixed identity but really this is made up so much by our environment and people that we interact with (even on a minor level)

      the only real identity (once you take away all conditioning of social structures and fashion) is that of being part of the planets ecosystem, on top of that we can have ideas of who we are but if we are put into a different society we will learn the language and the codes and adapt to it, we are an adaptive organism living on an evolving planet, little more than that really......the problems come when we interact daily with people who believe they are "something" that they are "cool" they are "living the life" or that believe they "have been wronged" or that they or you "arn't "normal”"

      i believe the real issue for all "personality disorders" (that needs redefining somewhere) is one of connection.....when you can connect properly the person who connects back doesn't care what your "identity" is, and you know that in their presence you can just express (release) the emotions that have been trying to define you against your will.

      If the someone who maybe defines themselves as having a PS can find someone to teach them connection then the emotions at first may be distain, boredom, lack of feeling, disinterest…..(things often expressed here by PS’s and emotions that they appear to hide from society) ......or if they are having difficulties with someone they may find emotions of anger, hate, desire to cause pain....etc....these things are emotions, and yes we are driven by them but they are not "who we are" and they can be worked out of us....and got rid of without causing problems for ourselves…..

      the idea of fixed identity is a big con that enables big business sell us stuff to reinforce an idea of identity which actually separates us from each other......reinforcing our sense of isolation, indifference, boredom.

      Anon
      when i read your statements here it occurs that what you are talking about is a difficulty of connection, and in this day n age that is pretty common....we live in a very disassociated society, most things about our lives cause feelings of alienation and uncertainty.....the world is frightening.

      connecting via the creation of false personalities will always be unfulfilling and it takes courage to connect properly, honestly, deeply because it exposes our vulnerability but it is the key to feeling alive (without causing pain, because yes it's true that power over others also makes you feel alive, but the sense of power and satisfaction obtained doesn't last as long as that provoked by real connections)

      The people i know who have the greatest difficulty with connection are the ones who tell me they are scared of nothing….
      I believe that by cutting the real deep connection that is natural to life they may have got rid of feeling fear but fear then manifests itself in their lives repeatedly, as many connections that they do have with people become ones where they are the person to be feared, and where as they may feel powerful in the relationship they are also perpetually dissatisfied.....

      empathy is connection and in a society of alienation it needs to be relearnt

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    4. @ Mn3:

      Hi. So. You didn't fall into any crevasses then. 8-)

      I agree with most of what you've said above. The last bit though is maybe an assumption too far.

      "I believe that by cutting the real deep connection that is natural to life"

      You're not suggesting it is an explicit act, of intentionally cutting deep connections? [It's unclear]. And; you can have a deep connection to Life, like you also said above, in terms "of being part of the planets ecosystem,". That doesn't mean you necessarily have a connection to your own species more than any other.
      Perhaps it is more natural to some, to have a connection to the natural world, than several billion strangers?

      "The people i know who have the greatest difficulty with connection are the ones who tell me they are scared of nothing…."

      You say that like it's a bad thing? 8-)
      If you're not afraid of being seen as different within a community, or physical violence - well, your options are a lot broader than most people's. No?

      That fact seems to be more what causes fear in others. Other people 'cut the connection', due to their own fear.

      Last, affective empathy cannot be relearned. You either have it or you don't. Sympathy is an OK substitute mostly.

      XK

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    5. "Last, affective empathy cannot be relearned. You either have it or you don't. Sympathy is an OK substitute mostly."

      This is not true. I can speak from personal experience and countless millions throughout history & today can easily prove this to be true. If of course you don't want it at all, for whatever reason (usually a fear of being "weak"...sad irony) than chances are you won't ever relearn it.

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    6. "I can speak from personal experience and countless millions throughout history & today can easily prove this to be UNtrue."

      Learning to proof read is harder for me than relearning affective empathy ;)

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    7. "Rushing around. We are all taught this is what we should do. I have no use for it any longer. I have stopped.I have dared myself to be still. I feel like myself. I feel like I'm not feeding a machine. I feel like I could exist outside of myself. It bothers people when you stop rushing around."

      Time and space to be yourself? Yes, people have to adjust, :p

      May I ask what you mean by "I feel like I could exist outside of myself."

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    8. "the only real identity (once you take away all conditioning of social structures and fashion) is that of being part of the planets ecosystem, on top of that we can have ideas of who we are but if we are put into a different society we will learn the language and the codes and adapt to it, we are an adaptive organism living on an evolving planet, little more than that really......"
      I agree. The adaptivity is quite remarkable, really. I have to remind myself there are physical limits, though. I am not Olympic athlete calibre, no matter how thoroughly and rigorously I might train and prepare. Similarly, from a psychological/neurological perspective, there are limits.

      "the problems come when we interact daily with people who believe they are "something" that they are "cool" they are "living the life" or that believe they "have been wronged" or that they or you "arn't "normal”""
      I'm finding that the problems can be minimised, though. As an individual, I have a small degree of influence on the environment. Acceptance of this allows me to develop awareness and navigational tools. I like the analogy of flowing with a river, steering my own little boat. Other people's personal psychology and approaches matter less than my steering towards pleasing and productive ports.

      "the reality is that we are always who we are, at any given moment, in response to and in relation to that moment."
      Yes, I like this expression.

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    9. @ Jonaid at 2.15pm:

      Re affective empathy either having it or not, and your:

      "This is not true. I can speak from personal experience and countless millions throughout history & today can easily prove this to be true."

      Perhaps you mean cognitive empathy ie. the ability to know *what* another is feeling when they feel it [which is difficult for many Aspies], but can improve with help and training.

      Affective empathy is apparently a spontaneous function of one's amygdala and vmPFC, or not, and can't be learned; if those bits of neural circuitry aren't capable of functioning normatively, CU traits are the result. fMRI research has demonstrated those differences in a [smallish] number of test subjects BTW. [fMRI's are an expensive research tool]. Plus it was found that the grey matter is less dense in other certain brain areas of people with no/low affective empathy.
      So 8-) Aspie pedantics aside, if one is [as I think you are] supporting the practical suggestion that people are nice to each other rather than abusive, sympathy will work just as well for a CU person, and as is under one's cognitive control it can be developed if one chooses.
      Example:
      It's sympathy that stops me from being nasty to you, as obviously I have no idea what you're feeling in real life anyway as you are in effect words on a screen?
      I know Aspies who have very high affective empathy, but it is no use to them whatsoever in interpersonal relationships because they have no cognitive empathy, so can't tell what the other person's emotion is, hence they can't empathise with it.
      Or they're one of the 85% of Aspies who have alexithymia which means they can't tell which emotions they themselves have anyway; so again, come across as unempathetic and callous!
      Life's a bitch for the neuro-diverse. LOL

      XK

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    10. "Life's a bitch for the neuro-diverse. LOL"

      Life's a bitch for anyone whose beliefs make that the most optimal overall. The brain ruthlessly seeks efficiency - that doesn't mean beliefs and thus patterns are optimal.

      There's something more important than qualitative experience and that's moment-to-moment survival.

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    11. "Emotional empathy, also called affective empathy or primitive empathy, is the subjective state resulting from emotional contagion. It is our automatic drive to respond appropriately to another's emotions. This kind of empathy happens automatically, and often unconsciously."

      That's the definition that pops up right on top if you google "affective empathy." If I've had an experience which you're currently going through, my empathy will automatically turn on for you. That's learned through experience.

      There were times when I could check off most of the symptoms listed under Aspergers and there were & are times when I don't check any. Environmental factors are key. I'm naturally the opposite of Aspergers.

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    12. @ Joanaid at 6.35pm:

      Ahh, I got it. Yes, I understand what you mean. Your affective empathy is triggered by your experiences of a similar event having happened to you at some past point. Yes?

      What also should have been stated by Google definitions is that that automatic emotional response is not automatic for all people; is all I was stating to you.

      Umm; the neurological opposite of Aspergers in many ways is psychopathy BTW. Did you really mean to suggest that [I suspect not]. 8-)
      I know that many Aspie people are extremely functional in the right contexts [re your "Environmental factors are key."] No argument there.

      XK

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    13. We disagree then on what constitutes sociopathy & psychopathy. To me intentions are everything. Someone behaving in ways which society might label "psychopathic" with GOOD intentions is not a psychopath by my definition. Likewise someone behaving like a saint on the outside but has ill intentions is a true psychopath, no matter how many people say otherwise.

      So yes, I am the opposite of Aspergers in many ways. I can be "psychopathic" on the outside to some but if they knew my intentions they'd know for certain that I'm the polar opposite of a real psycho. Real psychos are my natural enemies.

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    14. @ Jonaid at 7.49pm:

      "someone behaving like a saint on the outside but has ill intentions is a true"...
      ...*hypocrite* would be the much more accurate term, possibly. Or, devious jerk?
      I think one has to be very pedantic when using clinical terms. It would be inaccurate to say someone has heart disease if they have cancer for example. Therefore better to stick to strict clinical definitions of psychopath eg. someone who in the USA is diagnosed >30 on the PCL-R, if male. Which is still very inaccurate terminology because frankly the PCL-R "ain't worth spit" regarding clinical definitions of anything outside of Hare's over-active imagination.

      "A real psycho" usually means something Hollywood writes into scripts to give 'normals' a chill down their spine when they watch a movie/TV series. It's somewhat melodramatic.
      Actually it seems the only thing one is arguing about is the selection of words, not disagreement over concepts.

      XK

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    15. XK-

      I was thinking "hypocrite", too!!!

      On the subject of "Natural Selection"-I believe that continues on, past conception.

      When I see or hear news, about someone doing something that isn't too intelligent, and they end up dying-

      I say "Natural Selection".:)

      ~Vegas

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    16. XK-

      PS-I like UKan, too.:)

      ~Vegas

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    17. It's not a case of 'like'.
      One cannot like someone one will never meet in real life. UKan's humour is excellent, and when he posts the comments are preceptive and uncompromising. So it would be correct to say I like the posts esp. the humour.
      XK

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    18. XK-

      Yes, I was going too quickly, and wasn't specific enough.:)

      I like Ukan's posts and humor.:)

      ~Vegas

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    20. @XK
      sorry for late reply I've been away again....

      you are right I'm not suggesting that the cutting is intentional, sorry it was unclear and I totally agree that the connection to the eco system can potentially be at least as rewarding (if not more) but i do believe that the deep connection to our own species (however varied we may be) can sometimes make life easier to negotiate....and healthily enhance intimate relationships.

      "The people i know who have the greatest difficulty with connection are the ones who tell me they are scared of nothing…."

      You say that like it's a bad thing? 8-)
      I say it like it's bad because these people are unaware of their own fears because what they are afraid of isn't something one would consider frightening so they deny the label of fear and just decide that the problem is with the "other".
      Maybe they see how "brave" they are when faced with the rejection of society or some kind of extreme sport and presume they are scared of nothing and they don't see the things that scare the shit out of them because it doesn't suit their self image. but the reality is that they need someone and can't stand to be alone completely, and these people go to great lengths to control their own personal world via domination and manipulation of the chosen one, this behaviour has never seemed particularly brave to me.

      If you're not afraid of being seen as different within a community, or physical violence - well, your options are a lot broader than most people's. No?

      this is true but there are plenty of other things in this world to be scared of....eg scared of being on their own for some reason

      That fact seems to be more what causes fear in others. Other people 'cut the connection', due to their own fear.
      yes I imagine that many nt's cut the connection with so/psy because of fear but how much of a connection is there to be cut if it's only one sided anyway? or am i right in my observation that some so/psy need a connection with one special person?

      Last, affective empathy cannot be relearned. You either have it or you don't. Sympathy is an OK substitute mostly.
      I'm really not sure of that, I seem to have observed that in relation to the nature or nurture question empathy is a bit of both. It can be beaten out of us and can also be loved back in.....for the socio who recognises that their powerful "kill for" connection to that person they have been obsessed with is in some way an over zealous form of connection then they could if given the right games to play find themselves connecting on a more mundane level.

      sorry I'm kinda rubbish with the continuity of blogging....going away again for a week.

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    21. @ Mn3 at May 25 11.42am:

      "sorry I'm kinda rubbish with the continuity of blogging....going away again for a week."

      8-) yeah you are a bit but so am I.

      About the empathy thing, I wrote something about that @ Jonaid May 21 at 5.22pm, up above.

      Re "or am i right in my observation that some so/psy need a connection with one special person?"

      Yes, that's probably true for most I've ever met and me too. Really, more than one special person, like really good friends too. They pretty much get treated very well, and about the same as each other. You should read PuppyBasket's posts [in the next few ME posts BPSD+ASPD, A Girl Has No Name] about that, when you get back.

      You're right about the lonely thing. Some kid themselves I think; but ultimately, if you're human, you need human connection or you get mentally unhealthy sooner or later.

      Post when you get back, but maybe in a more current post, there seems to be a 14 day limit now and this post is so long now it'll be difficult to find any responses.
      XK

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  4. Is there a way to get notified of future comments on this topic without needing to post?

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  5. Is there a way to get notified of future comments on this topic without needing to post?

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    1. Don't know; just keep refreshing the home page to get the most recent version of the comments section works.

      Delete
    2. Subscribe to the RSS feed of the comments.

      Look on the right side of the webpage where it says "Subscribe To"

      Delete
  6. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  7. Interesting..lol..

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  8. Somebody is really shitting bricks...LOL

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  9. M.E. interesting stuff, the thought that immediately leaps to my mind was that this sort of fundamental identity issue may be an underlying motivation for anti-social behavior. Acting, asserting one's will, becomes a way to compensate for the lack of identity - it's reaffirming, it shows the sociopath has impact on the world.

    I think it also explains why socios often seek positions of power. Not just because it gives their actions a greater impact, but also because those positions are usually roles that one can assume, masks that don't just conceal but also give identity. You're the CEO or the senator (or the lawyer), it helps ground you.

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    1. Also, watching the vid the thought popped into my mind - what is it with wolves and socios?

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    2. @ Scarlet:

      "Acting, asserting one's will, becomes a way to compensate for the lack of identity"

      Why should being assertive be a compensation for anything? [Would anyone say being kind is a compensation?] Assertiveness or lack of it is one part of one's personality. As is seeking power and control over others and situations, [or, alternatively, 'communion' with others]. They are not regarded as compensations, just facets of one's personality.

      Regarding having 'an identity'. It's other people usually who want to pin an occupation etc. onto someone so they can be stereotyped and valued or not [according to community values].
      Substitute the word 'straight-jacket' for identity. Doesn't sound so appealing anymore?
      It's much more useful to have the capacity to be flexible and fluid. That's very grounding, actually. Knowing you can fit into many situations, in a relaxed, pleasant and competent manner. [Hence the 'poise' aspects of a 'certain personality style']
      Assertiveness and fluid self are not disadvantages to be regretted or 'worked around'. They are extremely worthwhile personality traits. It depends on each individual who has them to use them appropriately. It's counter-productive to devalue them or excuse them.

      As to wolves: what's NOT to like?
      8-)
      XK

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    3. "Assertiveness and fluid self are not disadvantages to be regretted or 'worked around'. They are extremely worthwhile personality traits. It depends on each individual who has them to use them appropriately. It's counter-productive to devalue them or excuse them."

      I agree with this statement. I have a flexibility that comes from, I suspect, a quite different place. Yet it is an adaptation and as I grow into who I am, I can use it very effectively in my work. There's much to be said for considering our patterns as adaptations and working with them.

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    4. Scarlet-

      "Also, watching the vid the thought popped into my mind - what is it with wolves and socios?"

      Good question.:)

      Obviously, it has to do with the "predator vs. prey" idea, but I don't know why they always use wolves, since there are so many "animal predators". Especially, since wolves travel in packs, and as far as I know sociopaths do not do that...

      ~Vegas

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  10. First, great post M.E.

    Second, Why does it seem like the whole world wants me to start watching Game of Thrones?

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    1. Damaged-

      "Second, Why does it seem like the whole world wants me to start watching Game of Thrones?"

      I WAS THINKING THE SAME THING!!!

      I thought I was the only one, who has never watched "Game of Thrones"!!!

      PS-Hemingway House: Down 3 Cats. Your "army" is coming along.:)

      ~Vegas

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    2. Is it that good? At work people look at me weird when they find out I haven't seen it.

      It's like The Wire all over again. When people told me how great it was it was like they were on the brink of orgasm. I still haven't watched it although it's on my list of show to binge watch.

      I guess I'll add GOT to it.


      My army will be pleased to know you don't watch it either. Maybe they can finally kill John Snow for good.

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    3. Damaged-

      I've never watched an episode of "Game of Thrones", so I don't know if it is that good, or not. You and I aren't weird-we just have full lives without it.:)

      "It's like The Wire all over again."

      Yes, and there will be more series to come!!! No pun intended.:)

      "When people told me how great it was it was like they were on the brink of orgasm."

      They probably were.:) HA!!! LOL!!!

      "I still haven't watched it although it's on my list of show to binge watch."

      If you "binge watch" it, will you let me know, if it's "orgasmic"???

      "My army will be pleased to know you don't watch it either. Maybe they can finally kill John Snow for good."

      You crack me up!!! HA!!! LOL!!!

      I'm glad your army will be pleased.:)

      If John Snow dies, I will know what happened.:)

      Again-your secret is safe with me.:)

      ~Vegas

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    4. Damaged-

      PS-This is HYSTERICAL!!!

      I just Googled "Faceless Man", so I could share that song, by Creed.:)

      Guess what came up 1st???

      You guessed it-GAME OF THRONES!!! HA!!! LOL!!!

      Apparently, there are "faceless men", in that show.:)

      After you binge watch it, you can tell me about the "faceless men".:) HA!!! LOL!!!

      That was too good.:)

      ~Vegas

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    5. Damaged-

      PSS-Does your building "army", get to watch it with you???

      ~Vegas

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    6. Damaged-

      PSSS-"Game of Thrones"-

      WE CAN'T GET AWAY!!!

      HA!!! LOL!!!

      I can't stop laughing, about that one.:)

      I hope you keep "building the army".:)

      ~Vegas

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    7. Ok. First of all, you both *REALLY* need to start watching GoT. I don't believe you don't watch it, D! You'd love it. It is my favourite show.

      Of all the characters in the series, the one to whom I relate the most is Arya Stark. The way in which she is being trained as an assassin is *sublime*, and quite literally, arousing as hell.

      I'm a few days late in seeing this post, but I was equally impacted by the last couple of episodes wherein her plot line is concerned. She had to learn to fight blind, by pure instinct- and what a beating that girl can take! She is tough, and her mentor is *hard*.

      But she isn't ready to let go of her iron core. She is too strong; she'll never give up the vestiges of self that she masks and secretly fondles like her precious. But she will leverage the skills she has learned to her utmost advantage- of that I am almost certain.

      I am really looking forward to future plot developments wherein this character is concerned, in particular.

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    8. Hey A!!!

      YOU ARE BACK!!!

      Missed you.:)

      ~Vegas

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    9. Not really. :P

      Thanks Vegas. Hope all is well with you.

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    10. A-

      PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE COME BACK!!!

      PLEASE???

      Thank you, A.:)

      All is as well as it can be, at this point in time.:)

      I think I saw my husband drive by again-he denies it, of course.

      I hope all is well with you, too.:)

      Have you seen the comments on the post today???

      WAY HEAVY!!!

      ~Vegas

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    11. A-

      PS-If I stop posting comments-it stopped going well.:(

      Got to keep a sense of humor in this life, right???

      ~Vegas

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  11. What is most trajic about people who breakdown emotionally due to trauma is that they usually end up becoming something akin to whoever it was that traumatized them. It's a domino effect and it begs the question "who started it"?

    I've been told that sociopathy has survival benefits and that's the attitude you see from many sociopathic people. It's based on flawed reasoning but even if I were to grant it, it makes no evolutionary sense. Evolution NEVER puts the individual above the group. "Anomalies" exist and that's what sociopathy is - it's not good for the individual or the group.

    Someone started this phenomenon and it becomes clearer & clearer when you put God, the history & prevalence of religions, "energy" along with a host of "mysterious" psychiatric conditions (i.e. schizo, sleep paralysis) into the mix.

    When you break and lose yourself following a traumatic experience, someone successfully got their way with you. It's an EMOTIONAL reaction to become apathetic, indifferent, and selfish - not a logical one (whether you believe in God or not). That's the irony behind most sociopaths: they are not logical, they're emotionally crippled and illogical. They think they're being strong and protective of themselves by shutting their true selves away but THAT is in itself an emotional reaction. The logical, rational and truly beneficial reaction is to acknowledge your pain, endure it, and grow from the experience and become stronger.

    Growing by enduring suffering makes you stronger AND a moral exemplar. Stunting your emotions to avoid suffering makes you end up becoming truly weak (no matter how tough or powerful you appear on the outside). Without God we all would break down eventually, if we existed at all. To wonder then, they say it's a superstitious belief!

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    1. @ Jonaid:
      "Evolution NEVER puts the individual above the group."

      Evolution always puts the individual above the group; in that it is the individual's genotype that is tested by Natural Selection. [Each genotype contributes to a population's genepool, obviously. So for a herd animal a more communion-style behaviour will have more evolutionary success. Humans are not, however, herd animals. They are a 'small family group' primate, like their close cousins].

      "that sociopathy has survival benefits....it makes no evolutionary sense."

      I suspect you know the following facts, but emotionally dislike them; your question was probably rhetorical but the following summary is current thinking in the research fields of developmental, personality, psychopathy and social psychology [ie. not my opinions]:

      Producing aggressive, assertive individuals with high Agency and low Communion makes perfect sense in difficult environments. So is the 'Cheater's Strategy' [like a cuckoo's], again, especially appropriate as an evolutionary 'short-cut' response to harsh environments [eg. poverty, emotionally abusive, and/or physically dangerous contexts].

      Some infants where "there is a genetic component but it is also triggered", [especially when being subjected to such environments but not necessarily], have a subsequent developmental trajectory that produces callous unemotional [CU] children/teenagers/adults. That is termed 'as having a psychopathic personality style'. Someone like this could kill ruthlessly but choose not to bother. They will probably be extremely pleasant most of the time. If CU children also inherit the propensity for Externalisation of their childhood traumas, and have attachment disturbances by default: they become aggressive, hostile, lawless adults, with dis-allegiance to humanity generally. They might get labeled psychopaths if they break laws and get caught.
      If they just inherit the Externalising factor [ie. sets of alleles], they become classed as having Anti-Social PD [or sociopaths but that's just a populist word no shrink will want to use nowadays].

      BTW, [for completeness] some children inherit an 'Internalising factor' sets of alleles and become anxious, depressed, neurotic adults instead, if stressed as children. [This factor I believe is more common within the human population].

      While you are correct that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, the stunting of certain emotions is not under the infant's control, obviously, and by the time the infant has grown up, accessing those emotions is well nigh impossible, or even desirable in many cases, [as it could induce further emotional trauma]. One can be taught how to live 'past it', however.

      It is not kind to blame the child for the parents', or grandparents' [or etc etc.], 'sins', is it? It would be much more practically useful to ensure effective help is available when necessary.

      XK

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    2. XK-

      Before I read your comment above, I was thinking "Natural Selection".:)

      ~Vegas

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    3. "I've been told that sociopathy has survival benefits and that's the attitude you see from many sociopathic people. It's based on flawed reasoning but even if I were to grant it, it makes no evolutionary sense. Evolution NEVER puts the individual above the group."

      You are dead wrong here my friend. Sociopaths BENEFIT the group if they are high functioning and moral. Let's examine the role of sociopath in society. We are the cops, the Judges, the doctors and firemen. We are the artists and actors. We are scientists and inventors. We guard and police you, we are the politicians and healers and freedom fighters. Without us society stagnates. Despite the foolish view that we are loners we are social creatures for the most part. Many of us concentrate on improving our society. For some it is the challenge, for some they see some material or social benefit, there are those of us who do it for the thrill but whatever our reasons we do it.

      If you read through this blog you will see that most of us consider the people we have collected as our property. We try to improve them. We want what is best for them. There are those among us who just collect people to destroy them but the bulk of sociopaths I know actually try to help people that they consider theirs. We defend what is ours. We fill out societal functions that others do not and cannot because they would go insane if they could not disconnect emotionally. Most high functioning socio's are the top of their fields and the fields we gravitate towards are those that most benefit society.

      Sociopaths classify into five groups in my estimation. The "monsters" that see others as prey and only destroy, the "Guard Dogs" those who police and defend and heal, the "Artists" who create and entertain, the "disruptive" who see something in society they find wrong and drive changes and motivate people against it, and the indifferent, those so damaged or bored they just kinda drift without affecting those around them. Some socios fall into more than one group and I suppose there are more but that is the majority. Some of the most important thinkers and lawmakers of history have been sociopaths. We tend to drive change with our manipulative and charismatic ways. We don't approve of unfairness which we can see easier than emoters due to our unbiased view. Lack of fear lets us do what others cannot. Boredom with the world drives us to create amazing things. Desire for power cause us to change society and challenge scientific prejudices. We are not anomalies. We exist for a reason, without us society withers.

      Discuss

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    4. XK:

      It is not about blame when it comes to sin. Everyone sins at least once in their life. The real sin is to justify your wrongdoing to yourself or to others. Justifying the wrong action itself I mean, not how & why it happened - that is the worst sin. This is pure logic so you don't have to believe in God to know it's true. Here's an example to show what I mean:

      X was sexually abused by his Uncle Y when he a young boy. X was traumatized by it and ultimately ended up becoming a pedophile. Now an objective & ethical mind can clearly see that while X IS committing a heinous crime, X is himself a victim. That is if X still admits that pedophilia is wrong but just can't help it or something.

      If, however, X starts saying pedophilia is just another variation of human sexuality and it's just our cultural norms & intolerance which leads us to condemn him, he has basically vindicated Y (the Uncle who sexually abusd him) because he himself claims that what was done to him ought to be tolerated & accepted. By justifying his own wrongdoing, he has condemned himself. He was a victim of other people's sins but now he's a worse sinner himself.

      Delete
    5. @ PuppyBasket:

      8-) 8-) Well well well. I have long hoped to 'meet' you. A pleasure. Actually, an honour.
      [no I am not being sarcastic, and I'm not 'playing'. Although this might sound a bit pompous as sometimes I probably 'write' like 'Bob'].

      So, being utterly non-antagonistic, this is a guard dog, artist and disruptive, talking. As I am sooo fluid. LOL

      I cannot Discuss. As everything you've written, both in your comment above, and all your other comments in 2014, I have never disagreed with a sentence of.

      I hope you are well, and prosperous. I really wish I had you at my back, in my real life actually. Sigh. In the Disruptive part of it, to be explicit.

      Now all one would need is UKan returning, for the aggro production; and life would be complete.

      XK

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    6. @ Jonaid:

      Your argument about X and Y is logical and correct, and understood. But try not to clog this particular thread subsequently, OK? 8-)

      XK

      Delete
    7. Puppy Basket

      I actually agree with almost everything you said in your post. We have semantical disagreement on what constitutes "sociopath." Unfortunately since there isn't a clear-cut definition of what or who a sociopath is, this is bound to happen.

      My points were made in regards to those you labelled "monsters." Intentions are everything. Even those who appear to be "monsters" to most people may be saints by my definition. It's not what you do that counts, it's what you intended to do and why.

      Delete
    8. Puppy Basket-

      Well said.:)

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    9. Here we definitely disagree Jonaid. What you do is what you are. What happens in your head/heart matters not at all to anyone but you. Most monsters are heroes in their own minds. For example a man with the best of intentions decides to rejuvenate his country that has been devastated by a war and bring back the pride and nationality they have lost to his people. These are good intentions yes? Hitler and Stalin come to mind. I have fantasized about killing people. In the real world I have saved over 100 lives. My intentions and reasons for doing this don't matter. In have the mind of a monster. I live my life as an Angel. I think most peoples good intentions are rationalizations after the fact. I do good because I can have an ethical code, it is the same reason I don't practice evil (sin) anymore. I follow the code because if I follow my brain/heart I would happily lay waste to everything I see. So much evil is done by people with "good intentions". The problem is that good is subjective as you say. You could save one person at the cost of 1000 others. Your intention would be good but if you fail to consider the consequences it does not matter, the other 1000 people died anyway.

      Let me give you a really good example of why that thinking does not work. A domestic abuser will say he loves his victim, he will rail against domestic abuse in public, he tell his victim over and over how sorry he is and have the best of intentions not to beat him/her again. But he will. He thinks he is justified because abusers see people as property. They believe that the victim deserves the abuse and that the victim is to blame for the abuse. They rationalize it afterwards.

      Screw intentions. What you do is what counts. Own your shit.Did you know that most drug dealer have good intentions? They think they are helping people. (In a way they are.)But sooner or later someone is going to die from their actions. That is why intentions don't mean squat. They are subjective.

      Delete
    10. Or,

      Did you know that most police officers have good intentions? They think they are helping people. (In a way they are.) But sooner or later someone is going to die from their actions.

      Like the black teenagers getting shot in the USA.

      XK

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    11. Puppy Basket-

      I completely agree.:)

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    12. Now we seem to disagree on what constitutes a true intention, be it good or bad. You seem to be arguing that we cannot know who has good intentions and who doesn't so therefore what you do is what you are. I agree that people can only judge you based on what they see. Our inability to access another human being's mind, however, does not change the fact that that person actually has an intention behind each act.

      What a person claims is not enough. Eventually their actions have to match up with their claims. So take your Hitler example. First of all I can only grant that Hitler had good intentions if his aim was only to restore German sovereignty & pride WITHOUT harming the interests of other nations unwarranted. Now given the history that has been passed down to us, the claim that Hitler had "good intentions" just does not match up with the facts. If he did, he transitioned somewhere along the way and was no longer driven by benign motives. It is wrong, therefore, to dismiss intentionality because we don't and can never know the full facts.

      "I have fantasized about killing people. In the real world I have saved over 100 lives."

      Intentions only matter when you do something so mere fantasizing is only "wrong" to the extent that it may eventually trigger the act. Your saving a 100 lives is in your favor unless you had some ulterior motive whose harm outweighs the good. Since only you can know that, I and everyone else should assume good intention unless we have evidence to the contrary.

      "I think most peoples good intentions are rationalizations after the fact."

      Most people I've dealth with are like this. I cannot say if "most people" in general are like this but I agree that far too many are. This sort of after-the-fact rationalizing is more likely if you're more sociopathic. Nonetheless, once again, it does not change the fact that there was some intention - good, bad or neutral - prior to the act and the after-the-fact rewriting does not change the truth.

      "I follow the code because if I follow my brain/heart I would happily lay waste to everything I see."

      You make a conscience choice to do that which has a better outcome. Clearly there is an intention behind that. You have an end goal for each action committed. That end goal is what determines if the action was right or wrong.

      "So much evil is done by people with "good intentions".

      Sometimes what we consider "evil" is only so because we don't and cannot know the full story. Other times what we consider to be "good intentions" are anything but that. What makes more sense? That a person genuinely intends good and always ends up doing evil OR that they're a liar?

      "The problem is that good is subjective as you say."

      Good is not subjective. If all the facts are known, the context is clearly understood, no two honest persons with a sense of right & wrong could disagree.

      "He thinks he is justified because abusers see people as property."

      Doesn't add up. No sane mind, honest, healthy mind can actually believe that a certain person is their property and it is "good" to beat them. Once again it makes more sense that this person is lying or insane. Why twist logic to fit what you see?

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    13. The last sentence there should be "why twist logic to fit what you see incompletely?"

      This brings to mind the meaning of the word "faith." Faith is not "belief" in God's existence...that's an separate question altogether. Faith comes AFTER you already know He exists. Faith means TRUST in Him. I can believe God exists and have no trust in Him. This is exactly what is meant by having faith in God. He knows the full picture and you & I don't. What appears good often ends up proving to be harmful in the end and vice versa. God knows the true intentions of each & every soul and he judges only by intentionality.

      Delete
    14. @ Jonaid at 11.02pm:

      ""He thinks he is justified because abusers see people as property."

      Doesn't add up. No sane mind, honest, healthy mind can actually believe that a certain person is their property and it is "good" to beat them."

      Perhaps what PuppyBasket meant is something like this:
      In some cultures eg. rural Pakistan, it is a perfectly sane and acceptable practice regarding one's wife.

      "Once again it makes more sense that this person is lying or insane."

      It might make more sense to you, but to a man in rural Pakistan it makes perfect sense and is a socially legitimate way he can use to protect his family's honour if she [the wife] shames him in some way [ie. flirts].

      That's what is meant by 'subjective'; or: according to one's personal or cultural norms.

      You *can't* assume your cultural norms are identical to another culture's. Once I spent three!!! hours explaining to an Aspie why Putin had taken back Crimea. The Aspie's objection was, basically 'it doesn't make sense because I wouldn't do it.' That's a very Aspie way of looking at other people's behaviour. The argument ended when I finally said 'Ah yes, but you're not Putin'. At which revelatory point - the Aspie 'got it'.

      8-) BTW I realised what an exemplary and highly patient individual I was, that day. 'What doesn't kill you making you stronger' and all that.....8-)

      [no more from me on this topic, it's too late in the evening].

      XK

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    15. "Perhaps what PuppyBasket meant is something like this:
      In some cultures eg. rural Pakistan, it is a perfectly sane and acceptable practice regarding one's wife."

      My parents migrated to USA from Kashmir - the region claimed by both India & Pakistan. The "honor killing" phenomenon is 1) rare, 2) NOT a cultural norm, 3) illegal and condemned universally by all religious authorities.

      That being said, do people get away with it? Yes. Is it often overlooked by relatives and neighbors? Yes. What's surprising to me is you're in a sociopath forum and presumably understand "lack of empathy" but still don't use that to explain such phenomenon. There is more domestic violence in the United States than there is honor killing in Pakistan. Is it a cultural norm here?

      Keep things in perspective.

      I should run now it's been a long night. Peace!

      Delete
    16. @ Jonaid [very briefly]:

      No, I wasn't talking about honour killings. They are unethical.
      Yes I suspected you were from Pakistan some time ago [facial type].
      Don't know about USA and domestic violence, but there are many cultures within the USA, so who knows?
      Empathy often gets subsumed by societal norms. All know that, I'm sure. 8-/
      good night.
      XK

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    17. Interesting. I do agree, Puppy Basket, that most reasoning is post-facto the act, or if not the act, the decision. Behaviour is driven sub-consciously; rationalisation serves to convince others.

      "Lack of fear lets us do what others cannot."
      Really? What is it that psychopaths and only psychopaths do? Humans across the neurodiversity spectrum often do all the things you've cited. Note I am not disclaiming the usefulness, creativity, cleverness, bravery etc of psychopath (I loved one for some of these very reasons); only that they have any sort of superior claim to these characteristics.

      Diversity, however, across the species is integral to adaptive capacity. Psychopaths are present in the population because genetic variation arises from human reproductive mechanisms. Diversity itself is useful rather than any particular human subset. Ontologies are human creations; we are all continuous processes with the Big Bang or whatever generative impulse brought the universe into being.

      Crystallisation of anything into a concept or label is necessarily transient. Language is hypnotism.

      Delete
    18. "Really? What is it that psychopaths and only psychopaths do? Humans across the neurodiversity spectrum often do all the things you've cited." I totally agree.
      XK and Puppy Basket because I think you are both capable of answering my questions. Do there actually exist sociopaths who do these things "We try to improve them. We want what is best for them.". What drives them to act this way? And you also mentioned creative sociopaths. What drives them to create? To feel the need to bring things to society and express themselves? Are you telling me that there is a category of sociopaths who care? Because that sounds like empathy. :/ If they dont care what drives them to help heal invent create and be moral? And if they are acting this way due to their understanding that it will benefit them, might they not become cruel once they have all they wanted and turn into the "monsters"? Obviously the "monsters" are the most well known because they disrupt humans and society and from them we slowly got to what we call the anti social traits. So for what reason is a person who has most of these traits still driven to do "good" and not harm society? And I think what jonaid was trying to say at some point that our deepest intentions will define us in the end. Someone can be a moral person just to get on top, or just because he can't be on top. I think nietzsche said that correct me if I'm wrong. People are moral because they can't afford to be immoral.

      Delete
    19. Exactly. Intentions are everything. I repeat. Everything.

      Delete
    20. Well put anon 4:46 and agreed anon 6:44.

      Delete
    21. @ Anon at 4.46am:

      I have little hope you will accept any of the following. And I speak for no-one else as that would be impertinent. However, as your questions are impertinent in themselves, I hope you can read the tone of this text correctly.

      "So for what reason is a person who has most of these traits still driven to do "good" and not harm society? "

      You ask 'Why'. Start asking 'Why not'.

      "People are moral because they can't afford to be immoral."

      Try this version:
      'Normal people are moral because they can't afford to be immoral, since they have an in-built need for acceptance by and communion with their group. They *fear* emotional 'punishment' if transgressing against the group's morality, and consequently being excluded'.

      An extreme 1% do not get 'reward' that way. Instead they can get emotional reward by being effective and efficient 'leaders' and 'helpers' with a detached and therefore objective style. [I know this part is starting to get very difficult to swallow, Anon et al. Tough].

      "Do there actually exist sociopaths who do these things "We try to improve them. We want what is best for them.". What drives them to act this way? "

      You jest, surely. What do you think a number of your [I'm assuming you're a typical USA clueless wonder] past Presidents were, nitwit? Many of your popular actors? Corporate directors? [do you live under a rock, perchance? [puzzled look] Or without any access to media [can't be. They posted here. Maybe via a cafe?] Back on point:
      Why shouldn't they? An objective and rational person is usually stoical, if without excessive aggression. It is inbuilt to express fairness and helpfulness as the primate default, in fact.

      "Are you telling me that there is a category of sociopaths who care?

      I believe PuppyBasket was telling you that, yes.

      "Because that sounds like empathy."

      Nope. That is altruism. And living according to ethics.
      It is dispiriting but predictable, that the only motive conceivable to the likes of you depends on 'empathy'. It strongly suggests that without it, you realise you would all degenerate into barbarity. [Oh, guess what? You all usually do!] LOL.

      Many with the ability to *choose* how to be, choose to be civilised.
      Again, why not? Without socio-economic deprivation as a factor, it's easier, more interesting, and more pleasant, and conforms more logically to the reward system of this personality 'style'. [Don't argue. Sigh. Just read some research papers. Just not Hare's or his two remaining friends']

      I have some questions of my own. Is it possible that you can make any rational decisions at all, ever, since your emotions dictate to you what you should and shouldn't do? Can you ever think clearly at all? Is it painful, if/when that happens? Do you feel you are competent, for example, to vote, without succumbing to the manipulations of narcissists? Purchase goods without being influenced by advertising? What, even, is the point of such a constrained life, with such limited choices? Does it make you feel sad at your fate?

      Ah well, enough questions. Off to do some more good now. LOL
      XK

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    22. Anon 4:46

      Notice how, as usual, a entire chapter is posted without addressing a single point you made. Ignore him he doesn't know what you said and doesn't know what he's saying himself. He thinks the opposite of sociopathy is a clueless, emotion-bound robot who falls prey to narcissists all the time. They're so clueless themselves that they make themselves feel better by feeling superior to everyone else.

      I've never seen a genuine, self-inflicted stupidity except in sociopaths. The masses are ignorant yes so they may make mistakes in trusting the wrong people. That's NOT stupidity. Stupidity is a moron who can be sold almost anything if you tell him he's special and unlike other idiots.

      Leave him to his clever words. He needs to twist reality whenever he encounters it. He's too "intelligent" to be real.


      Delete
    23. I kinda liked XK's questions. They feel rhetorical - perhaps they are - but I imagine our questions also seem strangely off-camber to psychopaths. It's an interesting insight, how we view each others' paradigms as something foreign. It draws me in.

      Delete
    24. XK-

      "...What do you think a number of your [I'm assuming you're a typical USA clueless wonder] past Presidents were, nitwit? Many of your popular actors? Corporate directors?..."

      The above isn't exclusive to the USA.

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    25. XK-

      I know I asked this question before, but I do not think I received an answer.

      What country do you live in?

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    26. Has anyone else noticed that sociopaths say nope and yep a lot? And leave our very important words like "i"? Damn that is weird.

      Delete
    27. **-* rarely says "I" and often says "yep". I have the impression he likes his own name, though. He writes it out in full.

      Delete
    28. XK


      Turning all the attention elsewhere and attacking on a personal level. A smart way to avoid the topic, or are you just having fun. I really like your introduction too, which is suposed to make me responsible for any disagreement and opposition. You really like putting pillows around for yourself dont you.

      It's predictable that you guys think you're on top of the world and attempt to make clear that you believe you are about anyone who has power in the world, while we're crying in a corner with our puppies. Once I had a sociopath try to convince me that they're 99% of the population. Cute.

      So my question was what drives sociopaths to act morally. And your aswer was either no reason, or its a secret or you didn’t answer. I’ll act like its no reason.

      You're saying that sociopaths care and that they get reward by being leaders and helpers and that they choose to be civilised. You said that empathy isnt needed in order to act morally. Maybe you’re right. But lack of empathy is only one single characteristic of sociopaths. If lack of empathy is not the problem than all the others are. We found these traits through criminals. Do these types of sociopaths only have certain traits? Are they not sociopaths?


      Also I cant answer your questions since that isnt the way my mind works. Your questions are rhetoric since they already have an aswer in them, and they have nothing to do with me and how I function. You shouldn't make assumptions about the people you are talking about as they shouldnt make any about you. Not everyone is the same. Like Puppy Basket talked about the different types of sociopaths there are different types of the other people. I was carefull to not make any major statement because all I want is to understand.



      I dont understand how someone can be controlled by their empathy. I’m not saying I dont believe it happens, I’m saying I just dont understand. If I were a leader I’d be totally capable of acting practically. I would choose what is best for the country. I wouldn’t burst crying because I had to treat people more like numbers and masses and because I might not be capable of saving all poor people. I would not run out of meetings crying. If I had to lower someones salary I wouldnt feel guilty. I almost never feel guilty. Except if I act out of anger which is rare, and in result I act in ways that weren’t needed and didn’t do any good. I’m totally practical and my empathy is never present in my decision making. If empathy is present in any way, it’s only to cause me to care about what happens outside myself and not to be selfish. People can have will for power and leadership skills without being sociopaths.



      With my questions I was intending to understand but you as a sociopath ,and I've noticed it in all the things you write, always attack on the other persons personal level, as if you, as you often say, couldnt help it. You're the proof that at least some sociopaths are mean.

      Are sociopaths who care not sociopaths? Do they only have some of the anti social traits. Are we maybe talking about some new personality disorder? Is there a trait that you believe causes all the others but not necessarily?

      Delete
    29. @ Anon at 12.31am:

      Sigh. it's not VN again is it?
      Confused/Schizoid/PITA?
      It's not those castles again?
      With the windows?
      [groan].
      See, analyse what someone writes all you like. But be quiet about it. When you're ready - pounce. OK?
      Then everyone else doesn't have to scroll past your streams of non-consciousness. [Oops. Of course I meant 'castles']

      XK

      Delete
    30. XK-

      What country do you live in???

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    31. XK
      I dont understand you. And I dont want to pounce. I'm asking questions and again you're not willing to answer. And yes you got me but I think you forgot about 3829 more names.

      Delete
    32. But yet you would be crying big crazy crocodile tears if you thought for one second you might not get your way.

      Delete
    33. I really enjoyed reading anonymous 12:31 post. A pleasant reminder of sincerity & civility.

      I said I never seen genuine stupidity in anyone except sociopaths. On rare occasion when you see a narcissist or socio get serious, put the mask down, you realize they have amazing potential and intelligence. I tried to convince the ones I know of this but they don't believe anyone who tells them the truth. They love people who flatter them, use them and discard them. I felt a need to help them until I realized they're only reaping what they sow.

      Delete
    34. Xk 3000 why are you so appalled at Vn's analogy of castles? I thought it was strangely perfect. A lovely way to describe the thought process of a sociopath.

      Delete
    35. So to clear up the confusion on what I "get out" of performing altruistic acts. Or maybe the questions is HOW someone like me could find the motivation to do so? Or maybe the question is why emoters cannot understand how ASPDs can act altruistically when there is no payoff for them? Lets start with why I personally, and the ASPDs I know, perform altruistic acts and uplift the people we have collected.

      Worth. We do it to gather worth to ourselves and help our people to gain it. It important to those of moral and ethical bents to prove worth. Perhaps it is also that we are broken people and when we see a broken person we can fix we do so. In revenge upon those that broke them, maybe. Maybe because we can. Maybe in the hope that if they can be fixed we can too. Likely there is a part of it like Jonaid says that it is a waste. Of potential, of a person, of a soul and that needs to be corrected. But mostly, like I said it is because it brings more worth into a world that sadly needs it.

      As to performing actual lifesaving? I do it because it needs to be done. Most people are useless in an emergency. I go into overdrive superhero mode. That nifty super Adrenalin thing we get. Emergencies are a rush, I live for that. there is also the Why Not? Someone needs to and I can. There is no underling thought or motive, I go into superhero mode as easy as breathing, no thought i just do. I will say it is the closest I get to true enjoyment ever. It might even be. So yeah there is that.

      I get to feel alive and I gain worth for rescues. That is it guys. Now answer my question. Why is that explanation never enough for you emoters? I know what you are looking for, some admission perhaps that I do this because I feel empathy for the victim? Sorry , no sale. I get the same rush and feeling of worth skydiving, I feel more empathy for the sky than I do for my rescue victims. Less than that even when they did something really stupid to need be rescued in the first place. Then I do "feel" disdain for them :)If there is a person who knowingly caused the need for a rescue I do also make sure they are punished whether by my hand or another.

      Now before someone asks "worthy of what" let me clarify. there is no what. I try to add value to everything I create as an artist or in the workplace or in life in general. Because I can, because why not do your best and then challenge yourself to beat your best. It is a game like everything else in my little socio brain. I chose the code of ethics I follow, to deviate no matter the cost to me means I lose the game. That simple. I will risk my life for a stranger because it amuses my brain. It is why I do everything I do good or bad, it serves to amuse me, to satisfy me or to bring me peace. Society benefits because I chose a way of life that benefits it.

      Any questions or things that need expanding on let me know.

      Delete
    36. @Joanid
      "I said I never seen genuine stupidity in anyone except sociopaths." " They love people who flatter them, use them and discard them. "

      Curious how you define Genuine stupidity, because I see all sorts of people being genuinely stupid all the time. As to the second part I think you may be having trouble distinguishing between Fully blown Narcissists and the rest of us. A regular Socio dismisses flattery and suck ups, they annoy us. We can spot them for what they are because we use those tricks ourselves. Narcs have a pathological need for reassurance. They believe anything positive and react violently to those who do not bow and scrape to them. The easy way to spot the difference is disagree with something said by the one you think is a NARC/Socio if they react, how they react will tell you which they are. A socio will deflect with logic, next get all emotional at them in your argument, watch their face, this is the point where the mask slips. We despise emotional confrontation and will shut down more and more. Watch the eyes (cold glitter there ?)and listen to our responses, they become more and more logical in response to your emotional outburst. Now if instead your subject gets more and more emotional and starts embellishing, deflecting, and blaming well then you got yourself a NARC. At this point, just for shits and giggles, suggest that they are to blame for something. Watch the meltdown (it should be glorious).

      You mentioned earlier that you don't believe a sane person can think they own someone else, never did I suggest this was a sane way of thinking. It is however a common one in most cultures.

      Delete
    37. "Why is that explanation never enough for you emoters? I know what you are looking for, some admission perhaps that I do this because I feel empathy for the victim? Sorry , no sale."
      Puppy Basket, Its not difficult at all for me to comprehend this. I just previously had a whole different view and by answering my questions you helped me understand more. Im not searching for anything at all. I'm open to what you're saying as you took your time to explain. It's just that it takes some time for me and for a lot of people to wear off that suspicion we have after the things we've heard and experienced. I still hold the belief that a lot of sociopaths are "monsters" and that not having empathy can make sadists more dangerous and I should always take precautions, but I'm open to consider that there exist sociopaths who arent sadists and who do the things you mentioned.

      Delete
    38. The sense of ownership is rife: my wife, my boyfriend and so on. It starts with the language.

      I also wonder about one of ME's quote tweets, something along the lines of "missing you means I miss the function you played in my life." Is that really different from a neurotypical perspective? The "function" and sentiment may be experienced differently but isn't the gap similar? Isn't that statement what we would think ourselves if we didn't have feelings of significant depth?
      Feelings give the music to our experiences and relationships. Resonance in our brains promotes the sense of meaning; feelings are like superhighways of resonance through connections to memories and beliefs.

      Slight diversion, a curiousity. I enjoyed the posts by Anon and Puppy Basket.

      Delete
    39. Sorry anon@1:14 I get a little defensive about that some times because the there are so many people that do just that. Since they cannot imagine a person without emotions they try to "prove" we have them. It gets tiresome. It is satisfying that you are enjoying the exchange and the site. I might suggest that you take precautions with everyone there are some emotive disorders like Paranoid Personality Disorder that can be even more dangerous to your mental health than even we. There are many of us who while we might have the sadistic bent get our sadist jollies out in healthy ways. I was thinking today that might not be sadism for sadisms sake with the ASPD. I was doing some introspection and communing with my group and the idea was raised that it is not straight sadism we practice but a perverted form of justice.

      Bear with here a moment. The ASPD tends to target the people who love them the most. We know we are monsters and we suffer fools badly. If someone was to love us and not realize what we are then they are a fool and therefore must be punished. The more they love us the crueler we are. It would explain why most of us have no problem when our mate/friend realizes what we are and loves us anyway. They know what we are and accept that and they were smart enough to figure it out and stayed because they could accept the monster therefore they are worthy as the ones we collected for sport are not.

      Just a thought. I also think you are on to something with emotions tying memories. I forget people easily. My interactions with them having no emotional content if they did not engage me intellectually then I don't remember them. I have long thought that might be some of the reason behind my condition. I don't get attached because I don't remember most interactions. I will think on this some more and consult the others.

      Delete
    40. Puppy Basket,

      In the case you mentioned where someone knows you and still relates to you, is there a new kind of congruence to your relationship?

      Thanks for your thoughts on memories and emotions, Puppy Basket.

      Delete
    41. Puppy Basket

      We all have good traits & bad traits and considering everything you said about yourself, I'd say your good ones outweigh your bad ones. You obviously choose to call yourself a sociopath but if you are, you (and your type) are not the people I'm concerned with. I don't know your intentions and have no reason to doubt what you've said. We are comparing apples to oranges when we discuss psychopathy and its variations. My primary interest & attacks are directed towards those who willfully, without any justification or excuse, act is sadistic, crude, extremely selfish & detrimental ways. I like traditional terms...my problem is with sellouts & devils, not their victims.

      Genuine intelligence is to know your true self and your true potential. Arrogance is not "just bad" it's stupid because it deludes you into thinking you're more than what you are. The difference between narcissists and sociopaths here is that a narcissist is easier to fool with flattery. A sociopath can pick up cheap flattery but be subtle with them, don't give yourself away and yes, you'll get them to fall for the trick as well.

      Having said all that, the stupidest people are those who know about the whole genie business and still befriend them. They gradually sell their reasoning faculties & delude themselves into thinking that they can get away with cheating & sinning. It's one thing to not believe in God (I was a genuine disbeliever for over a decade) and quite another to know He exists but sell yourself some story about how you'll escape justice, in this life or the next.





      Delete
    42. @ PuppyBasket:

      "We know we are monsters"

      No *we* don't. That is the single-most annoying thing about getting diagnosed as psychopathic. People then automatically assume the one naturally means the other.

      How can you possibly regard yourself a monster when you've put up with an Aspie spouse for 28 years!!!!!???. Without terminally dispatching them by year 5? 8-)
      LOL.
      Madam, you deserve a medal, not self-inflicted insults.

      [Let's just say I'm laughing more at myself here, and with you, not at you] 8-/

      XK

      Delete
    43. Very interesting post Puppy Basket. :)

      Delete
  12. M.E. re-tweeted Maria Popova's tweet, with a Brain Pickings article, that I really liked. This quote was included in the article:

    "Nothing alive can be calculated."

    ~Vegas

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you, for re-tweeting that, M.E.!!!

      I liked this saying, from the article, as well:

      "With piercing insight into the self-righteousness syndrome that befalls many such self-made people who come to believe their own myth of omnipotence"...

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    2. This one, too (from Kafka to his father):

      "You had worked your way so far up by your own energies alone, and as a result you had unbounded confidence in your opinion."

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    3. I could keep sharing, but there are so many good quotes in that article, that I recommend reading it!!!

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    4. The article was very insightful. Just how a Narc can twist their kid was explained so succinctly.

      Delete
    5. Puppy Basket-

      I have read several of the Brain Pickings articles M.E. has shared, and I found that one to be the most insightful, thus far.:)

      ~Vegas

      Delete
  13. I'm wondering about the relationship between our experience of feelings and our experience of self.

    The self can be regarded in so many ways. Assertiveness implies a knowledge of self, or a facet thereof, because it's a clear expression of what one wants or doesn't want. I have lacked that until recently, yet I had a clear sense of self and have always had a strong sense of agency.

    Connecting to my own feelings gives me an easy relationship with myself; I don't "fight" myself anymore.

    It's interesting to read the comments in which different experiences of feeling and self are being explored.

    Has anyone given consideration to this correlation? Any thoughts on the nature of the correlation?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not sure if it tracks that "Assertiveness implies a knowledge of self". I have no real core self yet I am one of the most assertive people I know. My assertiveness comes from intelligence coupled with experience and a complete lack of fear. I have no fear in social situations or when dealing with others so I can act with a great deal of agency. There is no need for a "self". I am. I am not what I was yesterday or what I will be tomorrow so forming an artificial attachment to a mental construct does not interest me. If i need to I define myself by my talents and skills and actions. After all, is this not truly what I am? I know many people who present themselves to the world and think of themselves in one way when in fact they are shown to be just the opposite by their actions. I don't fight myself either, even though I have no emotions to connect with. I am at peace because I know I am and I am not simultaneously.

      Delete
    2. A self gets in the way of appropriate agency, as agency needs to be specifically tailored to each situation. It's insufficient to just act, if it is unsuccessful, inappropriate or prolongs a problem. The more fluid the self, the more adaptive and flexible the agency. Hence 'good in a crisis' etc?

      "I am at peace because I know I am and I am not simultaneously."

      Yup. There is nothing to compare.

      8-{ Which is why I have no understanding of why some here state they feel 'empty' and pointless.

      XK

      Delete
    3. Which is why I have no understanding of why some here state they feel 'empty' and pointless.

      Ennui is something we socios get a lot. It may have to do with low dopamine response. Since most of our satisfaction comes from intellectual reward if we have no game in play we can get that empty feeling. My suggestion is go do volunteer work. Helping others is a great way to get out of your rut, or you can go skydiving, that never gets old.

      Delete
    4. The poster who mentioned this was already volunteering. But there seemed to be very little actual danger or risk in that person's life. So something like:
      "you can go skydiving, that never gets old."
      is a good confirmation of the extra risk needed in life. Ennui quickly disappears when you need to be hyper-vigilant for a majority of the time.
      XK

      Delete
    5. Thanks Puppy Basket and XK.

      My thoughts about assertiveness were framed to understand my own previous deficit of self ie assertiveness is a good strategy for acquiring / competing for resources (of all types ;) )in the social environment that I lacked. I didn't know what "I" wanted - the first ingredient to acting with agency.

      From your responses and my own more recent experience, perhaps assertiveness is related more to the organism than the self. There are some interesting conflagrations here.

      "there is no need for a self. I am."
      and your first para, XK -> these are very appealing to me.

      I'm noticing my own increased agency as I allow my emotions to flow. Feelings are cognitions, like thoughts. They are information, perspective "bubbles", and not reality and can be released just as thoughts can be. They are not "me".

      Thanks again. You've made that relatable to a degree. I am never bored and do not experience ennui, but I do have some conception of void.

      Delete
    6. North I don't think I've ever been bored either but I have known addiction which to me seems more what sociopaths describe as boredom. It never seemed like boredom to me but more of an emptying out of one's head replaced with a nawing hyper focus. I guess it was a way to escape truth. Escape voids. I still don't really want to look into the void. What is most disturbing to me about my experience with a sociopath is knowing the void that I always sensed is reality. And now so many things make sense. Religion, war and even the competition for resources seem to be nothing more than the product of a sociopathic mindset. I believe the greatest evolutionary hurdle we all must face is not ridding ourselves of sociopaths but rather their mindset. It is set up to enslave us

      Delete
    7. Not us you should be afraid of Anon@6:33. It is the True Narc mindset. We still care for people if only for our own purposes. The true Narc is so blinded by their own need the would destroy anything even the world and all in it if they could devour it. They always want more and if you expose them for what they are they will do anything to destroy you. We may think of humans as sheep or prey animals but think of you not at all. They are incapable of recognizing anything as outside of themselves as having value. We are protective of what we think of as ours. They will destroy their own family for because it makes them feel powerful. Fear the Narc.

      Delete
    8. I choose not to fear but to give respect where respect is due.

      Delete
    9. Nah be afraid of both. You said it yourself Puppy Basket some soicopaths are "monsters". Afraid I mean defend yourself or stay away.

      Delete
    10. *sociopaths my mistake

      Delete
    11. Anon I meant on a more global level. Fearing sociopaths on a personal level is smart. The main difference in a sociopath and a fully blown Narc is that the sociopath is not invested in the outcome of the game or in the skin they have adopted for that game and the Narcissist is fully invested and they believe their own lies. When a game goes sideways for a sociopath we just shed that skin and move on. The Narc implodes and takes down everyone around them. Whatever the are the head of they destroy with them because in their eyes everyone would be better off dead than deprived of the Narcs leadership. Jim Jones syndrome. If a narc gets too high up in a food chain (leadership position) and then is revealed they self destruct and kill everyone around them. A socio in that position will just laugh, leave and start again in a new spot or initiate our back up plan and chalk it up to scam gone bad or a lesson learned. That is why Narcs should scare you more.

      Delete
    12. Hmmm, this idea of investment.

      At first I was puzzled by "sociopath is not invested in the outcome of the game". How could that be, I thought? Don't we all want a return for any investment?

      This morning, I've been pondering how I feel about my studies and work. And, of course, the penny dropped. There's a distinction between one's being and one's operation. Investment and ROI are important for the organism, but once they are made, they are sunk costs.

      Creating and maintaining a distinction between being - I don't know, physically existing - and operation gives one the opportunity for additional awareness. There's nothing fraught about outcomes; things either work or they don't. In the former case, you have something you can reuse; in the latter, a learning.

      I think this is a distinction narcs struggle to make and that makes them very difficult to deal with. They are super-invested. My dad is pretty rational about it - positive and optimistic - but there's always a sense he is desperately pulling himself up by the bootlaces when things go wrong.

      Delete
    13. Yes North exactly. Another difference is in having a discussion with Sociopath as opposed to Narc. With a sociopath there is a love of debate for the sake of learning how the other person thinks. We may play Devil's Advocate or try to talk you around to point we really don't believe as a game but we are looking to learn and if you make a solid point you can actually change our view. Our viewpoints are fluid to begin with because we are adaptable in the extreme. A Narc will argue all day that sky is fucking green if they made the statement. They will argue it for years if needed even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, they will argue until you are worn down and tired of the pain and punishment they will inflict upon you until you give in and agree with them because that is what they want you see. Your capitulation, your surrender, they MUST be right. Always, in everything. Let me demonstrate the extreme of this behavior with a little tale from my childhood.

      My mother had to be the perfect housewife in her fantasy life (yes she is the Narc in this) so one day when preparing dinner she dropped the casserole in the glass dish just as it was about to go on the table. She forced me to pick up the casserole off the ground and and put it back in a new dish along with all the broken glass I could not pick out. She then served it to our family after threatening me to silence. I pointed out that eating broken glass was going to kill us. She was more invested in not failing to get dinner on table on time then she was with us living through the night. She was still denying that there was anything wrong as the family began finding pieces of glass in their food. I fessed up before anyone ate too much but she still denied it. To prove there was no glass in the food she was eating it herself. This is level of investment Narcs give to their vision of themselves as a perfect life form. This is why there is no point to arguing with them, ever. They are willing to die themselves and let their "loved ones" die rather than admit they are wrong.

      Delete
    14. Incredible story, but not unbelievable. As I read your introductory paragraph there, a river of memories tumbled through my mind. Nothing so interesting as yours; his arguing black and blue he didn't say something that 5 of us heard him say; driving us all home drunk and insisting he was the best driver in the world and knew his limits, was an expert at judging risk and what not.

      Sociopaths can be scintillating conversationalists with sharply interesting views. Very appealing to my INTJ mind. I've picked up many, many useful concepts.

      It's very difficult talking to a narc. My ex-husband forever refused to speak to me about my ideas because he couldn't match them. He was, of course, happy to talk about his ideas.

      Delete
  14. Jonaid's quote:

    "When you break and lose yourself following a traumatic experience, someone successfully got their way with you."

    Gave me the idea, for this "Song of the Day"!!!

    Foo Fighters

    BestofYou

    ~Vegas

    ReplyDelete
  15. XK-

    "...there is a genetic component but it is also triggered."

    What are your thoughts on this portion of M.E.'s post?

    ~Vegas

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. XK-

      I just read your comment to Jonaid, and you explained my above question perfectly.

      Thank you.:)

      ~Vegas

      Delete
  16. "If, however, X starts saying pedophilia is just another variation of human sexuality and it's just our cultural norms & intolerance which leads us to condemn him, he has basically vindicated Y (the Uncle who sexually abusd him) because he himself claims that what was done to him ought to be tolerated & accepted. By justifying his own wrongdoing, he has condemned himself. He was a victim of other people's sins but now he's a worse sinner himself.'

    Jonaid, have read many of your posts. Have to give you points for tenacity, albeit suggest you toss Islam and find another religion. As the basis of the existence of Islam is the rantings of a pedophile.

    "We disagree then on what constitutes sociopathy & psychopathy. To me intentions are everything. Someone behaving in ways which society might label "psychopathic" with GOOD intentions is not a psychopath by my definition. Likewise someone behaving like a saint on the outside but has ill intentions is a true psychopath, no matter how many people say otherwise. "

    That is a question of perspective on a problem in reality. 'Ill intentions" may be decided by the receiver of said actions but the basis may easily be altruistic or revenge. How would you know the difference from an outside perspective?

    One such example are the bleeder Narc/ BPD posting as 'victims' that are terminally 'sharing their pain' with 10001 bullshit stories, and then recycling them for narc supply. Puppetry to the extreme, but the intention is of another question. Some are spreading their misogyny, others are simply catfishing in the pools of the already weakened. To expose that is considered 'ill intent' by the catfish, but it is for the greater good of others.

    It would make sense to get your Facts straight first, before meting out judgement on the basis of your beliefs. And a belief system which in and of itself is based on desperation in fear of the unknown and a kiddie diddler to boot. How you rationalize or justify that to yourself is beyond me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. RotatingPDofTerminalBleed-

      "kiddie diddler", is a new term for me...

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    2. OK. I have a question. What *is* the actual basis for this suggestion re Islam [not having read the Quran]:
      "a belief system which in and of itself is based on....and a kiddie diddler to boot."
      If it is merely a historical truism that a wife was at the age of puberty but under present-day 'age of consent' rules, then perhaps it might be useful to note the Tudor UK monarchy was actually established by a woman who got married at the age of twelve, bore the future Henry VIIth at around the age of 13, [Henry VIIth being father of Henry VIII - he of six wives, who split with Catholic Rome and started the Anglican faith, an offshoot of which went to the USA in the 1600's].
      Said woman then spent twenty years successfully manipulating the English aristocracy to get her son crowned after the War of the Roses ended when Henry [VII] beat Richard IIIrd.

      Now, in hot countries, with early deaths, marrying young fertile females was not a crime but a useful selection mechanism for one's genetics to survive.
      Dynastic reproduction is primarily about production and survival of offspring and guarantees of virginity prior to conception. It is quite likely there was more utilitarian motive than aberrant sexuality involved, in centuries past.
      While ethics remain constant, generally, morality is very shifting indeed, over the centuries.
      XK

      Delete
    3. "As the basis of the existence of Islam is the rantings of a pedophile."

      I know the history of Islam and while I'm no historian, I have a rough overview of recorded human history. 1400 years ago a massive explosion occurs in the desserts of Arabia and out comes a sweeping religious civilization that conquers most of the ancient world within 50 years. That religious civilization represents nearly 25% of humanity to this day (unlike Alexander's empire which faded away with him). I clearly see the hand of God in this and am not blinded by trivial, disputed "facts" about who he married and at what age.

      As to your points on intentions...please see my response to Puppy Basket above I addressed the same points. I'm NOT claiming that we should base on legal system on what people say they intended every time. People lie way more often than speaking the truth. I'm just saying that our inability to know for a fact what a person intends does NOT change the fact that a person DOES have good or bad or neutral intention behind each act committed. The true criterion for judging a person is therefore by their intentions and ultimately God knows, even if you and I don't.

      Delete
    4. " I clearly see the hand of God in this and am not blinded by trivial, disputed "facts" about who he married and at what age. "

      That was not the 'hand of god'...lol...that was armies of crazy. They fight like no other! Martyrs for idiotic causes. Paradise guaranteed in the after life and 72 virgins!!! How can you beat that?

      God??...LMAO...no. An easily led bunch of twits that reproduce like rabbits and brain wash their kidlets.

      Delete
    5. Please cite a sound Islamic source for "72 virgins"? Only a nutcase believes what other nutcases ("muslim" ones in this case) make up.

      Uttering a nonsensical statement followed by a capital "LMAO" doesn't say you're informed or learned. Rather it shows you're willfully ignorant & happy to be so.

      Delete
    6. I am more than well informed, but will leave the 'learned' with regards to the rantings of your Pedophile prophet to yourself. You glossed over the fact that martyrs do Precisely what I stated and the reasons why, beyond the obvious stupidity of "believing' in a group insanity as their salvation.

      You do a nice job at spin, unfortunately attempting spin with fantastical rhetoric isn't particularly useful. Arguing against the facts of the actions of the "Islam afflicted" based on the reality of their actions against their own and others, in conflict with their own religious ideals and you think that Islamic sources are worth a shit?

      Delete
    7. RotatingPDofTerminalBleed-

      Well said-thank you.:)

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    8. RotatingPDofTerminalBleed-

      Unfortunately, I have a feeling that a bombardment of quotes from the Quran, are forthcoming.:(

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    9. RotatingPDofTerminalBleed-

      Are RPDOTB or RPDTB ok to use???

      If not, that's ok-just thought I'd ask.:)

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    10. Either or is fine.

      Jonaid has yet to regale the blog with Quranic quotes...

      No response as cannot respond and expect to make a point of any validity when the only defense proposed is verses of a deranged pedophile's mind from the 7th century.

      Delete
    11. RPDOTB-

      Thanks for letting me know.:)

      "So far, so good" on the Quranic quotes.:)

      "No response as cannot respond and expect to make a point of any validity when the only defense proposed is verses of a deranged pedophile's mind from the 7th century."

      I completely agree.:)

      ~Vegas

      Delete
    12. Potato is right Jihadi, and you fucking know it. I've certainly quoted enough verses from the Qu'ran for you to open your eyes. But rather than address the real issues when you are confronted with them, you dodge and weave- claiming a non-existent moral high ground on the basis of being offended on behalf of a manipulative madman! Don't you see how abjectly *weak* that is?

      You defend your shaky worldview with a bunch of superstitious crap about our being devils, whereas you're the Enlightened One, sent on a crusade to lead us all to a lie that you hold up as truth. Typical fucking narc.

      So... Any takers yet? Why is no one drinking your Koolaid, Jihadi?

      Gee. I wonder. Could it e that even sociopaths have a hard time revering such a blood-thirsty, cruel, pedophilic member of their own tribe?

      In keeping with the GoT spirit of this thread, Mohammed is Lord Bolton, and you're marching under the tyrant's banner. How can you not see what is as plain as day?

      Stop clinging to your pathetic delusions, and renounce your false "prophet" before it is too late for you.

      -A

      Delete
  17. One of the comments, made me think of this song, so I thought I'd share a 2nd...

    Song of the Day

    Creed

    FacelessMan

    ~Vegas

    ReplyDelete
  18. LOL...nah, just use my meat suit. :) https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100011560541852

    ReplyDelete
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    ReplyDelete

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