Friday, September 5, 2014

Narcissists in the news

Have no clue whether he actually is a narcissist or not, but from Jezebel, one man's response to being rejected on Tinder:

It reminded me of this recent comment regarding narcissism:

A malignant Narc believes their own lies. They don't have a compartmentalized brain like a sociopath. They also have a single personality unlike a sociopath's mirror constructs. Narcs NEED the ego feeding. Sociopaths don't really. Narcs attach to their sources of feeding they will not leave a source before finding another one. A sociopath can walk away at any time. 

A sociopath understands that they are other. That there is a degree of separation between themselves and the reset of humanity. A narc is enmeshed. Nothing is separate from them. A sociopath becomes a mirror, we recognize that to fit in we must become a mirror of those around us.. The Narc thinks that they ARE the mirror. That everyone and everything is a reflection of their godlike self. They can't even understand why someone else would like a different food than they would. If they hate peas all people should hate peas. They will then try and make you eat peas and enjoy them because obviously you are defective if you do not.

Example: Sociopath meets a person who thinks the sky is green who has something they desire. They agree the sky is green.
Narc decides the sky is green. No one on the planet and no amount of scientific proof will get them to admit they are wrong. Ever. They will keep telling people the sky is green and try to make everyone else think the sky is green too. They can NEVER be wrong. 

Just a few differences. There are many similarities but these are some of the most basic differences.

I think this is right but there is something more to it, I think. The narcissist believes his own lies yes, but the sociopath sort of does as well. I think maybe the more telling distinction is between a sociopath's cavalier/casual/convenience-based attachment to believing or acting upon his personal reality versus a narcissist's insistent/aggressive/self-righteous/prescriptive/judgmental attachment to his personal reality. In other words, a sociopath may, in some finite period of time (a day, a week, a decade), believe his own lies. But he has no real need or desire to defend that reality to the death against conscientious objectors, because it ultimately doesn't mean much to him (no real sense of identity, and thus ego is a moving target). In contrast, the narcissist is very firmly attached to concepts like being "right" or "wrong" or "better" or "superior" to others. He is not only strongly invested in believing that those terms can not only be validly applied to sort everyone out on a spectrum of human worth, he also believes that his yardstick is the only criterion worth measuring with. Sociopath not so much. Sociopath understands that so much of rating anything is a matter of personal preference. Something might be true in this moment and not true in the next. Consequently, the sociopath may ultimately seem more reasonable, whereas the narcissist is more a bully because not only will he force you to acknowledge your place on this fixed relative hierarchy of value, he will make you acknowledge his infinite wisdom and judgment in making the assessment. If that makes any sense?


  1. I have seen a narcissist morph from a perfect family man, husband and father to a raging homosexual, with a 10 year transition between the two constructs where only a select few knew of his dual life. From my experience, I see a narcissist being more reliant on stability and on the people around them. The narcissist has an attachment to his narcissic supply.

    The sociopath seems more free of attachments. From what I have witnessed, the sociopath constructs himself several worlds. If a world is deconstructed, he will build a new one. Obviously, it becomes harder as he progresses through life, particularly if he is high functioning. It is also more difficult now that we have the internet. The world has become a village. But the sociopath can become very edgy if his worlds cross. If you show a sociopath that you know more than one if his worlds, he will plunge a knife in your heart. I mean that metaphorically, but I am really not sure how metaphorical it is in their head.

    1. i defiantly agree i defiantly think metaphorically but i have been reading the site lately cause n have been coping by watching violent tv show for me it is less metaphorically but the shows keep me inline and i dont want to giveinto my desires like i love to move away from people i know so i dont get close to the empaths i know the internet can link your worlds but if can help find weaknesses in people you know expecialy if you know how to use the internet

    2. @Axl Davis: you also do not seem to want to give in to your desire to use proper punctuation. Holy run-on sentences, Batman!

      I'm in a particularly foul mood today.

  2. Here's a story where a narcissist (Barretta) and a sociopath (Sgarbi) teamed up to blackmail rich women.

    Look elsewhere for more details: Barretta was a cult leader. Probably addicted to scheming. A mind like a dictator. Shrinks would likely say he was a psychopath/sociopath - but in ME's language, he's a narcissist because of his fixed sense of self and bullying.

    Sgarbi fits ME's definition of a sociopath: a shape-shifting chameleon with no real sense of self.

    I'd bet that Barretta views himself as a man's man and hasn't had sex with women, while Sgarbi has probably smoked a cock or two to get things done. That would fit with the flexible sense of self; if you don't think of yourself as a man or heterosexual, having sex with men doesn't seem disgusting.

    This pattern of a narcissist and a sociopath teaming up occurs a lot. The narcissists rise to the top; they work their asses off to be on top. They get sociopaths to do dirty work for them - and there's nobody better than a motivated sociopath.

    I can recall a marriage I thought should be broken up. That was quite narcissistic of me; I wanted to play God. I found a sociopath and said I'd pay him if he broke up the marriage. He started on the project but got distracted and didn't finish.

  3. Why all these fine-tuned distinctions? It ALL comes down to good vs.
    There has NEVER been an agreed upon defination between "Sociopath"
    and "Psychopath," let alone narcassist and Sociopath.
    A man named Dr. Bonn who writes for "Psychology Today" says that
    Psychopaths are born, and Sociopaths are made via abuse.
    Psychopathy is "organic," and Sociopathy is accquired. That's not what
    M.E. believes.
    Psychology is NOT a science. Everything is "in the eye of the beholder,"
    and the "beholder," might have ve$ted interests, if he can $way enough
    people to his viewpoint.
    For every claim, a counter claim is made. A person can easily set
    himself up as an expert, and utalizing the gift of gab, sell ice cubes to
    That reminds me. If you want to see how ANY defination can be "fluid,"
    please watch a film ABOUT Eskimo's titled "The Savage Innocents."
    Send M.E. my love.

    1. You bring up a good point Anon. We, the whole of the human species, seem too caught up in labeling things. I believe it is how our minds work. How the mind organizes information, how it examines and files. We store and retrieve memories like little organic computers. People "along the spectrum" seem to store and process information differently than normatives. I understand why some people want to through the DSM out entirely.

      Having a different way of processing information is NOT a disease or disorder it is just how it happens. The majority is always frightened when a minority processes information differently than they do. Be it a sect breaking off from a religion or a new form of government or anything really. Humans think if they label things and examine them they can control them. It is just how we are wired. Your point that how sociopaths or psychopaths or Narcs are created is not the important bit is understandable on the level of treatment or even if we need to be "treated" in the first place.

      It is important on the level that if is a creation event that happens from a fucked up childhood that would mean it is preventable on some level. While most of us seem happy enough with how we function now I am thinking that we would have been pleased to have had a better/normal childhood. Perhaps making tools available to youngsters who present would at least keep them from displaying the violent/deadly behaviors many of us do.

      I believe you have a very valid point about Psychology being less than a full science. Perhaps making it into one should be number one on the list of things to do. It is subjective and as a part of the health industry is very susceptible to influence from outside $ource$.

    2. “You bring up a good point Anon. We, the whole of the human species, seem too caught up in labeling things. I believe it is how our minds work. How the mind organizes information, how it examines and files. We store and retrieve memories like little organic computers.” Aahhh finally someone is starting to make sense when it comes to this : ) I’m feeling the oppressive confinements of labeling and categorizing lifting.

    3. Dr. Ginger, as oppressiveness lifts, about your point that all types can be abusive, what makes them abusive?

    4. Ahhh Dr. Scifi, my new found friend : ) : )….I knew you would call me out on this one. I have to revert back to my default, and always say “don’t dichotomize things”. My entire background is clinical psych so naturally I’m still going to label things, but I would still like a little wiggle room, and would like to see clinical psychs, especially, examine things more critically.

    5. Dr. Ginger, I'm not presenting accurately since I come across as 'calling you out'. I am genuinely curious. Do you mean 'don't dichotomize things' to be, for example, don't dichotomize people into being abusive or not abusive? Maybe a better question is what traits lead to abusive tendencies. It all seems a mess to me. Narc's are abusive because xyz, socios can be abusive because of wmp or wxy, or sometimes even x'y'z'...

      And what do you mean by 'examine things more critically'? I think I actually agree with you even though I'm not sure what you mean. :)

    6. I remember when I first started college studying psychology, I really ate this stuff up. By the time I took my first abnormal psychology course, I thought I was an expert on all things pathology. I ran around pathologizing everyone, putting them in to some kind of category. Every single person in my life had some type of psychotic or personality disorder. I hadn’t yet had any training in logic or critical thinking. Over time thoughts evolve and change. I realized not everything and everyone fits nice and neatly in to a category. Humans have extremely complex psychologies. I don’t know if you have ever had the misfortune of hanging out with a group of clinical psychologists, but if you have any thoughts or ideas that are unusual or unique you get thrown in to a category of mental disorders. They will pathologize you in seconds. I can see them when they are doing it. I see their minds go to work trying to figure out which category you fall under. It’s shortcut thinking. The mind is a miser, and wants to conserve energy. They don’t want to have to think about things. I challenge them on this. I’m sure they see me as an infectious disease…A cancerous growth out to destroy their precious work. One of their own going rogue. An abusive narcissistic, borderline with antisocial tendencies to infiltrate their circles.

    7. Dr. Ginger, ok full on honesty here too:

      1. "Humans have extremely complex psychologies." That's also my starting point.

      2. "I don’t know if you have ever had the misfortune of hanging out with a group of clinical psychologists..." -- I shall tell you then of my misfortune to have not only a clinical psychologist mother, who practised repeatedly all the tests she had to learn going through training and school on me, but also all those parties full of like minded people. I was a lab rat in some ways and a huge projection of let's say the dreams immigrant survivors of WWII would have for their children.

      3. "An abusive narcissistic, borderline with antisocial tendencies to infiltrate their circles." Funny huh?

    8. i would defiantly agree that people put think into categories even aside from the physiologist just look at any high school scenery layout you see groups of different types of people that’s how i made it through high school and i know how psychology look at you in my high-school we had a introduction to psychology an i would see how they would try to examine everybody i would stay away from them like i hung out with smart kids my first year n next year was the gothics and alcoholics the next year was rednecks and stoners n senior year was the jocks i think empaths just want to catergorize things and if you watch through the worm hole with mogan freeman thiers one episode that show children will hate things and people that are different

    9. Why do you hate punctuation so much?

  4. Reference to the messaging part on Tinder between the guy & the girl: I love how he projects and deflects it back on her with his insults (i'm assuming its a her). Id tell him that too. "No offense buddy, but leave me alone, we don't know eachother, but have a nice day :-) ." Nice first impression thou, he gave her "you stupid fuck, i wanna cook, put my meat in your mouth...." -- like all his money in the world would make it justifiable. He'd kinda be fun toying with, but id have to make him accountable first for his actions and first impressions. You just don't treat a women like that, when you want her numero. . But IDK if its worth the investment. Depending on my mood.

    1. I would probably be tempted to play with him. His behavior would put him firmly in my "OK to screw over" category and I would prolly go to town.

    2. in my experience, men who lead with this sort of verbal aggression are giant gaping holes of need. To acknowledge them is to feed the hunger. As much as he tries to talk tough the woman controls the conversation. He comes off like a dog begging for scraps at a table who must be repeatedly shoo-ed away.

    3. Lol Mach, shoo them away. . Your dog analogy is funny.

    4. Haha! Good analogy with the dog. Yeah, "Please pay attention to me" is probably tattooed to this guy's forehead. I'd fuck with him, too. Insecure types are low-hanging fruit, though.

      Bonus points for the "look at how much money I make" comment, too. It's funny how men who stereotype women as golddiggers are the first to flaunt their wealth to get them to pay attention to them, in a very sad self-fulfilling prophecy sort of way.

  5. What's the most striking thing with egotrips of this kind is that there is no measure in what is asked and pretended (maybe there was some at the begining, during the seduction phase).
    The biggest and the most offbeat is it, the more confortable they are to ask so!
    Anytime i'm facing this kind of things, I wonder what would justify the request...why I would do this or that for him or her? do I have something to gain?
    And the biggest it is, the most important the gain would be...but the person in front of me have no means to give me such a big reward.

    I've watched yesterday the film about Sam Vaknin, and while watching him I was just telling to myself, what is he talking about...he might have a high IQ but he is ugly and his dress are it impossible for him to have a look at himself?

    And i'm sure that he thinks he has a high senduction potential.

    ( I also liked much the part about his diplomas...he get offended that he might have cheated, but he his telling again and again that people like him are liars and cheating all the time. it's just very normal that anyones reaction is too think that he might be cheating!!!)

    In brief, egotripical people requests are unaffordable for themselves...they live above their ressources/capabilities! :)

    To answer to Superchick, when you make the kind of request like this man is doing, you have nothing to loose :
    - you might already know that the girl is not really interested or is letting you down
    - for any reason you don't care anymore about her, maybe because you are already speaking with many other girls

    It is at the same time a kind of revenge and a way to say...I'm hurting you first before you close the door...mmmmm might be an unconscious revenge from mummy, who, her, closed the door when we were too young to do anything...
    The ultimate result anyway is the one expected : one less contact on the list of this men..."antisocial" we say :)

    If I was in the girl's role, I would :
    - laugh and maybe play a little longer on the provocation game
    - close the window and program and do something else more interesting (with a man much more interesting)
    - like this girl say "thank you but no thank you" stay polite, after all, I've been well educated! Why would I change?

    1. He's definitely trying to speak with many girls.... I know that type. Its only play. Not thats is wrong, but its only for one ultimate purpose. SEX.

      Lala, maybe this song was playing in the backround for him, would this put you in the mood to talk him a little bit more....? lol ;-)

    2. Sam Vaknin is a mental narcissist. He takes pride in his intellect and is not interested in sex. Somatic narcissists pride themselves on being great seducers. Sam has a lovely wife, Lidija, who loves him dearly, something many who diss Sam can't claim.

    3. Free being my mask;
      I appreciate the distinctions between the types of narcissisms' Thank you. I had no idea :)

      Ok i google this Sam fellow. I remember I watched a documentary a long while back on Sam Vakin. If I remember correctly, the reporter filming his life became a little short-winded by Sams constant critics of him, it was beating him down. But Sam was a very intelligent man if you got to know how he operates. I also thought he was very lucky to have such support by his lovely wife. She was an important asset to him. I believe he does love her by his appreciation and other virtues he displayed. There's a double sided coin to look at things.

  6. I'm really thinking that what all sociopaths are asking for is for the whole world to show and put them limits. To give them a strong and sane stucture, a framework to grow as an adult.
    I'm not sure that they are not learning from their mistakes/punishments...but like children, it takes years for them to learn and (re)shape their personalities.

    The problem, is that it is normally nobodies role than the parents or social departments to give this structure.
    That's why even if people understand sociopaths systems, they will be quickly tired of them.

    A very strong husband/wife could also partly play this role, as well as very close friends who are not involved permanently in the sociopaths daily life.

  7. LaLa, have you seen the videos of Jim Fallon on youtube? He's a neuroscientist who discovered by accident he has 'warrior genes' and big defects characteristic of psychopathic killers in brain scans.

    He attributes his 'pro-social' life to his mother, family and early upbringing. He's quite a riot and much more interesting, if also self-focused, than some self-proclaimed narcs/psychopaths.

    This comments section so far is more interesting than the article. These words like narc, sociopath, psychopath often do little to wrap around the varied, complex traits these people poss­ess. Fallon states that most psychiatrist either don't think psychopathy or sociopathy, and malignant narcs are established disorders or that they are all so close that spending time trying to separate them, when the definitions are so rough is a waste of time.

    I also get the impression that socios like to have a group they feel superior too -- the sky is green group.

  8. DoctoreSciFi : Yes I've seen some videos about him. So we might not call him anything because he has not developed a real antisocial behaviour, has he?

    About the fact that Socios might feel looks like people having a handicap and can't accept it.

    I think i've some brillant traits for some things, I've had successes.
    So? I'm proud of myself and it feeds me, I'm particularly happy that I've achieved all this with my work and my involvment...and? That's all :)
    I don't need to consider myself more or less ....than him or her. The people doing this kind of comparison have a problem with themselves or the picture someone drew of themselves.

    In french old "noblesse" (which is different from "bourgeoisie"), showing your money is, in fact,clearly showing that you have no, or that it is newly acquired...

    1. LaLa, I've enjoyed reading many of your posts. They bring a fresh and different perspective. Fallon self-identifies as a 'pro-social psychopath'. He's a neuroscientists so he knows what he thinks is a psychopath. My view is like calling transgender-men 'he', rather than 'she'. He self-identifies, let's call him a pro-social psychopath?

      Along the lines of what you are saying, Fallon describes full-blown psychopathy (a 30 or higher on Hare's test) as the result of a 3 legged stool. (1) Many warrior genes present; (2) marked abnormalities in brain scans associated with empathy, remorse... and violence; and (3) severe early childhood abuse -- particularly in the 1st three years. He says he was saved by his mother's love and attention from his family.

  9. I have a nice question-game...
    WHERE (which places, jobs, etc...) ARE WE SURE NOT TO FIND SOCIOPATHS?

    1. I think we have such varied interests that you will find us everywhere Lala.

  10. Lala, you say "I am hurting you first before you close the door." It has crossed my mind many times that sociopaths operate using this paradigm. Perhaps this is why they get their thrill by seducing and ruining. Perhaps they are repeating with others what has been done to them. Perhaps for some, they act like this by nature, and for others it is learned. It sounds like some of the self identified sociopaths on this site remember a time when they could feel, and some do not.

    Is it that they cannot connect or is it that, a long time ago, they made up their mind that they would not and have turned those neuro pathways off? Even for neurotypical, especially the sensitive ones, it can be difficult to let our guards down to really connect. We take the chance of getting hurt every time we do.

    1. OldAndWise, perhaps you find this relevant: even psychopaths can feel emotional empathy when instructed to do so. Their focus or attention to that emotion does not last, or they do not think it is important.

      Lots' of articles like this one:

    2. DoctorAlter, I am not suggesting that sociopaths do not have emotions. I have witnessed very strong emotions in my sociofriend. It is interesting to know they can turn empathy on and off at will, though. Thank you for the link.

      My questions were more centered around how they process emotions. They do not seems to have much emotional memory. They seem to be either unable or unwilling to develop trusting relationships the way neuro typicals do. The question was is it something that they are born with, or is it a learned behavior resulting from some early trauma or other? Are they fearful of developing relationships or are they unable? Reading the self identified sociopaths on this site, I would be tempted to say some are fearful, and some are unable. All say it is not something that they miss, perhaps even saying that they are better of without it.

      If you are fearful if the water, you wont enjoy going swimming, and you won't miss it. If you never swam, you can't miss it either.


    3. Those are very good questions OldAndWise and the right people to answer are socios and I guess borderline type people too, not me.

      One general point, though, that might be related is that in adults there are HUGE brain function abnormalities seen in scans for people who lack empathy, remorse... or a conscience if you will. So it takes much more effort for the brain to use those poorly developed circuits.

      People with speech disturbances too have abnormalities in speech centres in the brain, so it takes alot of practise and effort for them to develop speech and some never get it to work well.

      It's like if i am asked to rotate an object in 3d in my head. I can painstakingly work it out piece by piece, but it isn't fun and takes a lot of effort, so I'd rather focus on something else.

    4. I think my brain chemistry changed becoming a psychologist where so much emphasis is put on detaching from emotions, and examining things from a more objective perspective. I swear there was a time in my life where I had more emotional responses to people and events. I would love to have an mri. What's your story? You said previously you don't experience things or understand them on an emotional level.

    5. Dr. Ginger, either the 'you' includes me, or I am a narcissist. LOL.

      It's more brain activity patterns, circuits, than chemistry exactly. I think what LaLa mentioned about being able to turn empathy on and off (or allow people into her life and then put them out) is a useful life skill for many people. It's also a conundrum for thinking about psychopathy.

      Let's say some of my circuits have been stuck in the past in repeat loops and still are at times. It takes a conscious decision often to open up emotionally, like what OldAndWise wrote about, but when I do it works. My cognitive empathy was poor (faulty brain circuitry) and I've had to work at it and always will -- and more of my thoughts are on my blog.

    6. I know I picked up the shoot first mentality. I polled a few of my circle and this seems to be the standard operating procedure. I use to find out on a first date what the man's break up criteria was so that when I needed an exit strategy I could get them to dump me quick. I don't attach completely to pets because they are going to die before me probably.

      Self defense behavior that can escalate into self-sabotage. A great deal of my ego was composed of rationalization. Someone told me the other day that a person does not need self esteem if they have integrity. When practice this and am true to the principles I have adopted then I am right with my world.

    7. OldAndWise: "If you are fearful if the water, you wont enjoy going swimming, and you won't miss it. If you never swam, you can't miss it either."

      perhaps the water can appear murky, or like a pool of tar, or only faintly glimpsed for a brief moment. idk

  11. Oldandwise, I imagine that at least some of them had the capacity to connect...but what if the mother, for example, herself can't connect?
    I guess the child would be seriously frustrated and lost. He would have learned very early in his life that "trying to connect" is a synonyme of deep pain.
    Learning this, he could honestly not take again the risk to connect to someone, or let's say that he is dying to connect to people (he is deeply missing commexions in his life) but at the same time, he can't handle it as it brings him back to his painful begining in life.

    Of course it is different if the problem is coming from the brain. We can see it for example for autism...then we can suppose that the mother is trying to do her maximum, but it would not change many things.

    I'm not sure, in the case of M.E. that she can be able to know where the problem is coming from...but she knows that there was some important problems in her family...violence, lying, cheating...

    1. I believe you are right Lala. Every Sociopath I have talked to has a Narc as mother or father. There was no connection growing up. The formative years are so very important. But for some of us this was reinforced. I asked my roommate last week about a strange speech affection he has. After he makes a statement he will withhold information and wait for the person he is speaking to to ask for more information. When I asked about it he said he knew he did it and it was a habit he had picked up from talking to his mother. He was waiting to see if the person he was talking to was actually interested/pay attention to what he was saying. His mother usually was not.
      Unfortunately for him growing up his mother was often his only social contact.

      I was lucky in that there other children and adults for me to interact with. All my life I have found substitute mothers. These wonderful women recognized what I needed and willing gave it to me and I am forever grateful for this. I will have to do some remembering and writing on this to examine it further.

      I am one of those who had emotions and learned to turn them off. I am working now on reconnecting with them. Just as an exercise. I don't miss them. I would be interested to know if I have the warrior gene along with everything else.

    2. I think both of you are right on target.

    3. LaLa: "He would have learned very early in his life that "trying to connect" is a synonyme of deep pain." -- and pointless, confusing and a waste of time.

    4. I grew up in a household with a very likely borderline mother and a narcissist father, so early on I learnt that to try to connect to them meant to open myself to further abuse at their hands. It was every man and woman for themselves and I could only ever trust myself.

      This has carried on in my adult life; I just moved back to my country and left behind perhaps the closest friend I have ever had and probably ever will have. That person knew I was a sociopath and was still able to get close to me, thanks in part to her own sociopathic traits. The Frozen parody song, "Will you help me hide a body?" (Do you want to build a snowman?) is/was our friendship theme, chosen by her. In the last few weeks I decided that I should become 'detached' from that person to prevent feeling negatively over not seeing them again. It was very nice to have someone who saw and accepted me, someone I could remove the mask in front of, but now I hardly ever think of her. It's bordering on character flaw. I don't usually find people who I want to stay connected to, though, so it's not been a huge problem. I think it will be in the future.

  12. Sometimes, while reading Socios messages or articles, I have the feeling that they are putting cold words or meaning to something in fact that is not so cold to most of the people. I have the feeling that they might truly and normaly connect to people, and that they are quickly overtaken by their deep problem...and then give a cold version of what happend in a way not to show their weakness (trying to make friends, but having deep troubles to handle it).
    They would win the game saying, ahahah I was manipulating you!!...but first they are the only ones playing, and second they are the ones loosing in the end.

    As an empath (or whoever) I could consider that because I will one day cut the links with a sociopath, I might be the one manipulating (I can connect and disconnect to people, as often as I want) and anytime wining the game.

    Socios write that they have addictions...why not addictions to people/connections too?

    I really think that Socios must stand tall or it brings them close to death.
    It is possible that they have built all this terror around sociopathy/psychopathy to obfuscate their real injury.

    What if Socios were just hyper-chaste/susceptives about their problem?

    (I'm guessing, but it is good sometimes to change the point of view).

  13. When did narcissistic personality disorder become synonymous with abusive behavior? Anyone can be abusive. Sociopaths, borderlines...anyone.

    1. Dr. Ginger, I don't know how you can cram so many good points into so few words. And, oh, I'm a futurist now.

  14. While I do think there is something to the socio's look down on Narc's because of a misplaced superiority thing let me explain the lengths a narc will go to to prove they are right as perhaps an example of why we find them to be more horrible than us.

    When I was young my Narc Mom and I were setting the table for dinner and she dropped the casserole she was serving on the floor. It was in a glass dish which shattered. She did not want to be seen as failing to provide dinner correctly so she insisted I pick up the dirty food and glass and put it in a new dish and put it on the table. When I pointed out that eating broken glass would kill us she flipped out and promised worse than eating glass if I told. So we sat down to dinner and I just watched as she willing ate ground glass to keep her self image intact. Everyone at the table soon figured out there was glass in their food. It was fucking obvious, big ass pieces of glass. She kept denying and I tattled (she was right, she made my life worse for months than eating the glass would have been).

    Just freaking marvel at that though. She was willing to kill her whole family and herself so that she could keep her image of being the perfect housewife. That in a nutshell is why I despise Narcs.

    1. That's awful and gross.

      Some people who arrive at this site despise socios because of the horrible emotional pain, and sometimes life-threatening damage that was inflicted upon them. Not all end up despising socios, as a class they believe exists, though.

    2. Puppy: Do you have an idea why your mother is/became an narcissist?

    3. Pretty sure it was the usual combo of abuse and neglect. She developed anorexia early on too which often presents with Narcissism.She went undiagnosed with Celiac disease for most of her life. This would cause failure to thrive issues long before anyone knew how to deal with them. Eating issues were met with beatings. She was legally blind and never got glasses til she finally went to grade school. Considering how she would always flip out at normal childhood clumsiness with my brother and me I think she was probably punished for being blind too. She always hated animals too for some reason.

      Hard to pull to much out of her history since she was a pathological liar.

    4. And can you tell a little bit more about the person who helped you (like a susbsitution mother)?

    5. Lala it was a lot of people over the years not just one.

    6. Puppy Basket, anybody special?
      Do you know why I am asking the question?

    7. @OldAndWise: regarding your last question to Puppy Basket... I'm intrigued. What reason do you have for asking her? I don't think I've ever collected parental figures, so I'm wondering if there's something that I missed.

    8. I can't believe that someone had an experience so similar to mine. My mother (who is in her 70's) dropped a casserole in the floor. When I walked in the room, she was on her hands and knees.. Half the casserole was on a tray, and the rest on the floor among chards of glass. I helped clean up & asked if the casserole on the tray had been on the floor. She looked as if I was the devil and spat, "No!". I felt bad about questioning it. She delivered the casserole on the tray to my aunt to serve. A few minutes into the meal, my cousin found a large piece of glass-at least an inch long- that had been part of the corner of the casserole dish. He was calm about it but suggested that we check ours. My mother got defensive & played the victim & said, "Well! I'm eating mine!" The rest of us scraped whatever part of the casserole that we had not ALREADY consumed to the side and let it go...because 'that's mom''s ironic because if a 'normal' person had done such a thing, I imagine most of us would never invite them back, considering it could have killed us, but mom got a free pass because we know that she has issues. I'm unsure what's wrong with her... Is she a narcissist? She's selfish & tactless & hurts people's feelings. She's a racist and says inappropriate things like "People with large gums shouldn't smile like that" or "Gay was such a wonderful word until the homosexuals ruined it" When I brought squash from my brother's garden, she refused to cook it.. "they are such perfect specimens from my child's garden, I want to look a them." She took pics of them. It's surreal b/c it's not the way that we grew up, but maybe my dad balanced her out? The older she's gotten, the worse she acts. She didn't date when my dad left. She liked being the victim. I was closer to my father & paternal grandmother. My dad hung in as long as he could. He's so much happier now. we're very close. If anyone knows what sort of disorder this is, or has suggestions as to how to deal with her guilt trips & passive aggressive behavior, I thank you. She ives in the past. House is wall-to-wall pictures of friends & family, including her ex-husband (my dad)'s family- back to the 1800s,.She kept my teeth & last year asked me if I wanted them (Uh, no). She has 100 yr old wallpaper with plaster from an old house that was being demolished. She was crushed to see it destroyed but had no connection to it. Last yr she asked about her hair style & how to change it. I said if she wanted to change it, she might thin it out (it was a poofy & grey). I said if she wanted to color it, the auburn color that she had for yrs was gorgeous. That went over well. Not She pouted & then weeks later, i get an envelope in the mail with a Ziploc bag filled with hair & a note: "I'm shorn" I wanted to throw up. Her friends act like I'm horrible b/c I don't visit much. I feel guilty but it sucks the life out of me to be there. Nothing's ever good enough. I'm damned if I care and damned if I don't...

  15. Does anyone else find it amazing that Dr. Brave has so many people with the exact same problem coming to him??

  16. It's hard to determine which type is the worst. A narcissistic person has such an unrealistic view of themselves. I like confidence in a person but arrogance is hard to tolerate & I find that in both types. both seem to have a feeling of grandeur that I find hilarious. At least it's fun to sit back & watch it unfold because both types have a way of looking foolish. I have to be in the right mindset to be around it and certainly my tolerance level up.

    1. I do think that our arrogance is very off putting. We use it to separate ourselves and "set ourselves above the riff raff". One of the hardest things I have dealt with is smacking my ego down. It is the core of the change in my life though. As long as I view other people as less than me I act towards them in that manner. I speak to them in that manner. It took long years and spiritual instruction to realize that all of the Goddesses creatures are equal in Her eyes and receive an equal amount of love from Her. We are charged to emulate that. Her most important rule. Once I took this lesson to heart and started to practice it through my actions as well my life changed immeasurably.

      To be humble, to welcome all of the children of the universe equally into my life. To see where I am LIKE people instead of my differences creates a bond and humility. I can mentally masturbate to the fact that my test scores make smarter than 99.9% of the population on earth but I still do stupid stuff. There are people with much lower IQ's doing much better than I am. I could rationalize that in a million ways (and used to) but what does it get me?

      I am not God, I am not any more special than a bum on skid row, a goat herder, a mass murder. I am not less special than a king or captain of industry or movie star. We are all born, will flail through life as best as we can and die and make no real permanent mark on the universe. I am an small virus on a speck of dust in an infinite universe. If I get too grandiose, one of the best cures for me is to go star gazing. Hard to get a big head when you contemplate the vastness of the universe.

      If you are investing that much energy in convincing yourself of the awesomeness that is you, you are missing out on all of the beauty that is other people. All the amazing bits of the universe go by unheeded. You end up living life inside your head. All alone. People are amazing. The world outside your head is astonishingly beautiful. Let go of your investment in yourself and participate in the grand dance that is life as a dancer not a choreographer.

    2. To Anon: I think the best issue with Socios, Narcissists to look their ridiculous part...their part totally outside of the reality...and laugh and enjoy a good laugh...and then do something else.

      That's even what they themselves recommand "don't take it so serious"... they are hurting us because we are taking for us, deeply, what they project to us.

      Socios knows it's their problem, not ours.

      Of course for empaths it is a difficult brain/mind/heart gymnastic, but it is worth it.

    3. We are "Mirrors"...not really targets.

    4. LaLa, can you expand on what you mean by "we are 'mirrors', not really 'targets'"? Is it connected, at least partly, to different notions of 'self'?

      I've hit a trail of three questions upon encountering your words. I hope they are of interest to you and others here, and lead to more fascinating topics like mirrors.

      1. "Of course for empaths it is a difficult brain/mind/heart gymnastic" -- people who have been drawn through trauma in an intimate relation, and trauma reactions -- at the level of notions of self, not just things like 'evil' -- escaping that trap, part of the self fragments into disconnected and unrelatable pieces, which makes interacting with others also significantly problematic.

      2. Maybe therapies like DBT for borderline can be the best treatment since orderline tendencies are also connected to 'fragmented self'.

      3. How is 'fragmented self' similar or different from 'fluid self' or non-self some others speak to here?

    5. Anon; there's wisdom in your words. But in all honesty, I think we're all a bit tainted inside. We have to choose to do good and show kindness. Pride comes before a fall. I try to remember that and hope to God .....I run with humility a lot more than arrogance.

      Well said Pups :)

    6. To Doctor SciFi : I mean that Socios are looking to find themselves, constantly, as their mothers doesn't send them the right message to help them to built/structure themselves.
      So to find themselves and learn about themselves, they interact with other people (whoever), that's why I say that other people are mirrors.

      Some socios are saying this too.

      But in the mirrors, they have difficulties to see a clear image of themselves, and to find answers. Because the natural mirror should be the mother (or father, or a subsitution mother, like for Puppy...).

      All they find is limits, that we put, but they are not ready for limits because they must first learn who they are.
      Like I wouldn't care to have a car if I have no driving licence.

      I see Socios a little like people at the very age of a deep hole, and they might fall inside it. If someone around them is having a small love chagrin or a depression, they would not really have time/possibility to look at them.

      There is a strong relation with "survive" or "die" an early age I guess...though Socios might be unconsciously obsessed 24/24 about this duality. That's maybe why they are inable to really consider people around them for good reasons.

      I've read one day that if a human being can't dream, he can die. Maybe that if a human being can't be loved proprely, he can die too.

      But there is maby a message of hope, it looks anyway that for the very small child, life is stronger...than death.
      That's maybe the ultimate message for Socios, "why did I survive?".

    7. Doctor ScFi : I forgot to answer your other questions...
      I think more and more that people who are loosing themselves/drawning in a relation with a Socio have to consider also their own relation to the others and to the world.
      On one hand there is the Socio, on the other one there is the...empath, naive, too much sensitive, not well balanced people?

      I think so.

      Are the Socio guilty because we are hypersensitive? No.
      Are the Hypersensitive people guilty because we are Socio? No

      My own experience revealed many new things to me, on my own pesonality.

      In a sociopath system orientated world, we are not properly "armed".
      The world is not sociopath orientated, but it can happen that we sometimes enter a mini-sociopaths world.
      Socios are part of the world, so we should be ready to face them too.

      We are not learning in school, of course, but by experience.
      And the first ones have always a disgusting taste.

      My mother knew, when I was about 6 or 7 years old, that I had difficulties to protect myslef. She has tried to better balance me...but it was not enough, of course.

      I guess that people feeling "destroyed" by Socios, should put aside for some time their Socio partner/friend/wathever and come back to their own history and relation to the society and the world.

      Having ignored that Socios exist, is our biggest mistake.

      Empaths can feel deep emptahy for the poor ones, the ones who didn't have many chances in life. Socios are part of them, but they are not the one crying in a corner begging for help, they must definitely keep the head up, and that's where they are for us, in desguise.

      If Socios could clearly ask for help, there would not be anymore Socios.

      I guess that empaths are strongly attracted to Socios because they "feel" their pain. But Socios don't want to be helped...that's where the problem is starting.

    8. LaLa, about "people who are loosing themselves/drawning in a relation with a Socio have to consider also their own relation to the others and to the world."

      the intensity of many of these relationships is a form of escapism, no? People who are not comfortable in their own skin, content with themselves, don't want to face themselves, and need a relationship to distract.

    9. I've just replied and it didn't work...grrrrrrr....!

      So I was saying that there is empath for example, and co-dependant. You can be both or not.

      Empath true nature is about helping/healing, it looks like innate...but i'm searching on this.

      I think that I've spotted that my now husband needed help when I met him. Is not a Socio anyway, more like a light Asperger.
      I have relations with Socio friends or colleagues.

      Do you know the fishes that are cleaning-fishes? They are cleaning anything they found...if in a bowl, they'll clean the glass.
      Maybe that empaths are like this...healing-maniacs! they need to heal anytime...

      The key anyway, is to plainly inhabit ourselves. Not others.

    10. Puppy Basket@ 6:47

      Your post was wonderful. I especially like what you said about skid row bums and stargazing. The sun shines equally for every living earthly thing, not simply for me and my own. Awed by the splendor of the stars, we are touched by the light of their force. .

  17. Whether sociopath or narcissist they have two things in common:
    1. They talk non-stop (ever notice the length of the posts on this site??)
    2. You can't believe a word they say

    1. Anon, funny isn't it? Can't sociopath's and other types be narcissist?

      Also, maybe more is working regarding post/comment length -- your point 1. Some people have more to say than others and forums like this can be a refuge or open space.

      I learned recently how blogging on the web is so different than writing a short story for instance. You don't have the chance to draw people into long winded stories too often. My view now is to make a point with a quick introduction and maybe a teaser to the future.

  18. Funny examples of liying and tentative of abuse :
    - A customer i was working with last year, has just send me an e-mail for the same thing for this year. I give him the price for this year. He answers that it is not at all the same price like last year, and that last year everything was included.
    ... everything is never all included in our services, so I still check the last year in voice, where it is exactly writtent that many things are not included.

    This is typically what and empath can't understand. The man knows I have the invoice and that I can check it very quickly. So I guess as he wants to pay less, he has convinced his brain and mind, that it was all included (he has the same invoice too!!).
    If he was lying on purpose (means he clearly knows he was trying to manipulate me), he would know that I can give him a proof in one second that everything was not included.

    I've observed this kind of thing with many commercial/trade professionnals.

    How could they imagine that it could work???? yes they imagine it because their liar system has convinced them that last year everything was included!!

    Another exemple, I'm working with a partner company. I have a customer who is quite demanding (not abusive, but looks everything in detail, because her boss would cause trouble if everything is not right).
    My partner company has send to me an e-mail, saying "if your customer is looking for details, then we will do it to with her, the same way".

    ??? who is customer, who is working for the customer??
    Is that not normal that a company could be attentive to details in the work they are doing for their customers??

    Ahaha what a beautiful world we are linving in, they are dreaming...
    But it is not working with me :
    - I've shown to my first customer the cold reality : last year invoice!
    - For the second, I will certainly not work again with this partner company...I'm not satisifed with their attitude and quality of work.

    I might say this also about a sociopath friend, we are not sharing the same values (can we say that Sicios have values?) so we are not going to "work" anymore together.

    The only difference with a friend, might be the emotionnal dimension in the maybe I would think twice. :)

    1. LaLa, the character I ran in to, and then away from, was also a pathological liar -- from the mundane (like what he had for lunch) to grand stories full of improbable events and outlandish circumstances, not so different from some posts/comments I've seen on this blog.

      It was pointless to confront him, as he would just invent more lies, or get aggressive or detach... I settled on the idea that lying was a genuine form of self-expression for him, if that makes any sense.

      Pathological lying is the hardest thing to comprehend since anything a person says about themselves is deceptive. But it is still fascinating as a human phenomenon. What's the motive, or the reward, or the definition of 'truth'?

    2. I found through practical experience with my brother and my mother that the lies were to deflect any blame from themselves. Ever. To be totally blameless. If they did something wrong they would preemptively lie to cover it. They would make truth tellers around them look like the ones who were lying or sabotage them to seem crazy.

      They will try and make people who know the truth doubt themselves. Tell them that they are crazy. That thier memories are wrong. That the evidence of your own eyes that you are staring right at is wrong. If this does not work the mask slips and the screaming ranting demon emerges. Most people will leave them alone at this point. If you persist in pointing out the truth then they will physically attack you sometimes.

      The "reward" is that their self delusion of perfection can NEVER slip. They know what they really are. As long as no one else knows they are safe. Pull the mask aside and prove them wrong about something and they melt down completely.

    3. Puppy Basket, you make that point starkly and yeah I had experienced that gas-lighting, blaming others, like an inversion of what he was doing -- being blameless.

      In his case I wonder if there was more than that because his lying was so bizarre. I mean he invented an entire life history of heroic US military service (never having lived in the US or been a citizen), going on secret missions behind enemy lines, being recruited when special forces found him there operating as a photographer for UPI. (He actually was a photographer, I search some archives).

      He was always the victim of mistreatment with the military, his relationships... He fakes symptoms of C-PTSD with an expert therapist here and pays lots of money for that privelidge. He lies about flashbacks to places he never was.

      This is a part of his distant past, life, that spanned over a decade, so why would he invent it when it has no contact with me, when he knew that would be the end of any trust in the relationship and I would see him as a liar?

      He's not stupid. I do think from other things he wanted to be with me longer than it worked out for him.

      I don't know if he believes these 'self delusions'. The story is so strange.

  19. @ Puppy Basket.. wholeheartedly agree. I've said the same before what kind of a sad life to live. Lala..quite pathetic to be that out of touch from reality. Narc & socio are to a great extent. I guess they accomplish some goals short term but never long term and long term is what really matters most.

  20. Yes, that's a good clarification.

    Along those same lines- you run into enormous amounts of defensive aggression from a malignant narcissist. You also see them needing to justify to themselves why their viciousness is "OK". That's why they have to devalue you before they can let you go.

    A sociopath doesn't need self justification to accept themselves. They are more willing to be aggressive for no other reason that they want to be aggressive. There's less need to make it about the other person deserving it.

    1. I think I'm an empath but for reasons ME has written about, I get Narcissistic tendencies in terms of self-delusions and justification in arguments. In order to be more tactful and self-aware, I've been trying to adopt these kind of Sociopathic tendencies of just letting go of that need for self-justification and just accepting my views (which can and do change) as well as accepting others'. I think this would help me pick my battles better and keep me open-minded. But I am having some trouble with what it really means to simply accept and only being aggressive out of a desire to be aggressive. Is it really just a matter of smiling silently in the face of controversy until the feeling to retort passes? And only playing Devil's Advocate for fun, not because anyone "deserves" it or I really "need" to?

  21. I'm particularly impressed that he was gifted with such a fortuitous surname.

  22. That idiot Vaknin came up with the Narcissist label for some petty reason, probably for the sake of monetary gain, which is the only reason why the DSM even exists.

    There isn't a difference between the so-called Narcissist and the Antisocial, both are the same.

    These disorders are inherent in lower races, and among the poor who had to adapt and rely on deception for the sake of survival.

    1. The 'idiot' was measured to be a genius as a child and is highly intelligent. The lower races are all those below the equator including Australia. Anon@1:57 is an expert in psychiatry.

    2. Racism is a form of Narcissism. I have your measure Anon 1:57, why don't you quit being a coward and take a name. Quit blaming your inadequacies on other people.

    3. @4:47
      He failed to contribute anything meaningful to any field.

      It's highly unlikely that he's a genius.

      Actual studies disagree.

    4. Actual studies like these?

      Drop YOUR studies on us Anon. Just so you know studies by professed racist groups do not count.

    5. If you need any help with the big words just ask one of us "lesser races".

    6. "These disorders are inherent in lower races, and among the poor who had to adapt and rely on deception for the sake of survival."

      Wise of you to be anonymous.

    7. Wee! Now I have a face with my comments.

    8. There, there.

      I do realize that you poor, poor oppressed peasants secretly have no idea what to do with all your newfound 'freedom'.

      I really do feel your pain.

      It's all because no one knows how to properly wield power anymore.

      Perhaps one of these days you and your children will be slaving away again.

      Fear not, it's all for the greater good.

    9. You do crack me up Anon. Typical jealous crap from a blue collar loser who has delusions of grandeur.

  23. He was diagnosed three separate times with it.

  24. I promise Dr.Brave if my wife come back i will shear testimony about him..

    Hello to every one out here, am here to share the unexpected miracle that happened to me three days ago, My name is Jeffrey Dowling,i live in Texas,USA.and I`m happily married to a lovely and caring wife,with two kids A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my wife so terrible that she took the case to court for a divorce she said that she never wanted to stay with me again,and that she did not love me anymore So she packed out of my house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get her back,after much begging,but all to no avail and she confirmed it that she has made her decision,and she never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my wife So i explained every thing to her,so she told me that the only way i can get my wife back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for her too So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow her advice. Then she gave me the email address of the spell caster whom she visited.(}, So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address she gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my wife back the next day what an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my wife who did not call me for the past seven {7}months,gave me a call to inform me that she was coming back So Amazing!! So that was how she came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and she apologized for her mistake,and for the pain she caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, i will advice you out there to kindly visit the same website,if you are in any condition like this,or you have any problem related to “bringing your ex back. So thanks to Dr Brave for bringing back my wife,and brought great joy to my family once again.{} , He is the best spell caster..

  25. "Come back little Sheeba!" "Come back M.E.!"
    In the 1950's there was a movie titled "Come Back Little Sheeba."
    It was about the relationship between a disillusioned alcohalic played by
    the movie star Burt Lancaster and his wife played by Shirley Booth.
    "Sheeba," their dog runs away.
    They run a boarding house. A young couple lives with them, and triggers
    old memories that cause Burt to have a relapse.
    You should look at some of these old films because they are a good
    historical key to how people used to think before this country went south.
    You should also see another Lancaster film called "The Swimmer" (1968)
    You'll see how things changed during the duration of one small decade.
    The late Joan Rivers was in that film, trying to make it as a dramatic
    actress. You'll see why she switched to comedy.

  26. I realize I that make up my reality, by constructing my beliefs... and I feel free to shift belief systems or change my rules whenever and wherever need be. I will believe my own 'lies' (if they are useful lies). If they are not useful beliefs I will drop them.

  27. Is that deep or idiotic? How do you determine what are 'useful beliefs' if your constructions are lies?

    1. For example, a lie or constructed belief I could make for myself are just simple things like basically I decide how I want to feel and then I make up a belief that makes me feel that way. For example it is no good walking around telling yourself you are a piece of shit (even if this is accurate or you believe this to be true), you better reprogram yourself because you are going to feel like a piece of shit until you start telling yourself otherwise.

    2. Its really just self-hypnosis. Look it up.

    3. "For example it is no good walking around telling yourself you are a piece of shit" -- that is a constructed belief or a lie too. So there is no way to determine, if all beliefs are constructed, malleable and lies, what is useful.

    4. okay so then theyre just beliefs and not lies or truths... just beliefs that either help you or hinder you..

  28. The Great doctor has so many different names.

  29. I don't believe anyone has a single personality. I think for everyone it depends on who we are with. You adopt whatever persona works in the given situation. Its not made-up, its just what feels appropriate for the time being.

    1. It can be made up. Made up and constructed personas are good too. But often they just come out from habit.

  30. This post was fascinating. Thanks, M.E., for your valuable insight. The distinctions you make between socios versus narcs ring true to me.

  31. I don't think there's a big distinction between sociopath and narc. Sociopaths also try to uphold what they've presented to certain people to some degree. With the narc saying the sky is green, after they're proven wrong they'll keep saying it to the person who proved them wrong, but stop saying it to different people. They're ultimately not attached to opinions either and just trying to look insightful saying that the sky is green. There's just a bit more vanity involved with narcissists,

  32. I am here to give testimony on how i got my wife back ,He is real.?

    Hello to every one out here, am here to share the unexpected miracle that happened to me three days ago, My name is Jeffrey Dowling,i live in Texas,USA.and I`m happily married to a lovely and caring wife,with two kids A very big problem occurred in my family seven months ago,between me and my wife so terrible that she took the case to court for a divorce she said that she never wanted to stay with me again,and that she did not love me anymore So she packed out of my house and made me and my children passed through severe pain. I tried all my possible means to get her back,after much begging,but all to no avail and she confirmed it that she has made her decision,and she never wanted to see me again. So on one evening,as i was coming back from work,i met an old friend of mine who asked of my wife So i explained every thing to her,so she told me that the only way i can get my wife back,is to visit a spell caster,because it has really worked for her too So i never believed in spell,but i had no other choice,than to follow her advice. Then she gave me the email address of the spell caster whom she visited.(}, So the next morning,i sent a mail to the address she gave to me,and the spell caster assured me that i will get my wife back the next day what an amazing statement!! I never believed,so he spoke with me,and told me everything that i need to do. Then the next morning, So surprisingly, my wife who did not call me for the past seven {7}months,gave me a call to inform me that she was coming back So Amazing!! So that was how she came back that same day,with lots of love and joy,and she apologized for her mistake,and for the pain she caused me and my children. Then from that day,our relationship was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, was now stronger than how it were before,by the help of a spell caster . So, i will advice you out there to kindly visit the same website,if you are in any condition like this,or you have any problem related to “bringing your ex back. So thanks to Dr Brave for bringing back my wife,and brought great joy to my family once again.{} , Thanks.

  33. I knew I have found the solution to my problems when I came across this spell caster "vudoo Priest in Washington. Though I have heard about him online, I was really sure Until I met him in the states.
    He then completed my joy when he brought my wife back after 2 years of divorce. This spell caster is a wizard. I got results in about 28 hours after he finished the spell. My wife text me after a long time. I do not even know how she got my number. I am sure Its from my Facebook page. Anyways, I wish to tell the world how this spell caster turned my shattered family into a lovely home. I am trying to go on with a money spell too.
    Contact him on phone 443 459 1140, or email at I sure you would be more grateful than I am when you use his spell.
    Lork wood.


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