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Wednesday, August 16, 2017

Appealing to Cognitive vs. Emotional Empathy

From a reader:

Thoroughly enjoyed your book. I'm pretty sure you hit on the right conclusions in the closing chapters. I used to work with batterers and some violent offenders. Emotional self regulation and empathy tend to range along a spectrum. The highly emotional men (empaths - as you refer to them) that I worked with responded well to empathy. Men on the sociopathic end of the spectrum tended to view emotional displays of empathy as pathetic and useless. The sociopaths I encountered tended to be quite adept at "cognitive empathy" (the ability to model and predict behaviors from an intellectual perspective), but were blind to feeling. As a consequence, they didn't seem to perceive compassion or guilt. It took me a while to come to the conclusion that the soft, tender, vulnerable part of them just wasn't there in the same way as it often is in others. 

They were however exquisitely stunned to consequences. I learned very quickly to drop empathy as a psychotherapeutic intervention, and to focus on rewards, punishments and outcomes in their lives. They were quick to pick up the fact that kindness was often a far better long term strategy for getting what they want than cruelty. 

Pro social behaviors can be taught to children without a conscience. Parents and teachers just need to know what they are working with. I could go on and describe the manipulative games the sociopaths I worked with used to engage in, the special interest they took in manipulating their therapists, the telltale language they used to describe others, or how they game the system, but you already know these things. I liked working with them. I think I was a puzzle to them. Encountering someone who could be "touchy/feely", and who could abruptly turn off their empathy to confront them directly seemed to confuse them. I imagine that I was able to promote some interest and a sense of unease in knowing that I could see through them. Interesting people. Everyone's trying to make their way in the world.

15 comments:

  1. Great post.

    I think it's time we do hear more from people who have taken the effort to understand the sociopathic experience of the human condition and have learnt effective techniques for dealing with them.

    Humans tend to mythologise that which we don't understand. The monster label is easy, but is useless for facilitating adaptation to our context - which includes sociopaths.

    Practically speaking, however, there's so much benefit to be had in understanding their paradigm: the types of environment elements they perceive as levers, the types of actions they typically use to manipulate those levers, but most importantly what is at stake for the individual at any point in time.

    This is the sort of analysis we can conduct in order to predict their actions and more effectively navigate our work environments of which they are a part.

    I'm really interested in developing a kind of toolkit for navigating work environments with sociopaths. This is a huge area of potential for the human species.

    I've worked with quite a few sociopaths. Nearly walked right into one, this morning, haha. Let's call him Mac. Such an interesting guy, I have a kind of affection for him that I think a lot of people share.

    It took me a while to come to the conclusion that the soft, tender, vulnerable part of them just wasn't there in the same way as it often is in others.

    Are you able to elaborate on this a little bit?

    It's interesting that several people who work closely with him have indicated that they see vulnerability in Mac. Maybe they don't feel it the way we do, but their threat responses indicate what they don't want to lose. And they need to master losses. I've noticed (and **-* does it too) that they tend to master misfortunes or fears (or things we would label such) in this way.

    I actually think there's a lack of self-consciousness about their own vulnerability and this is a big factor in what makes them attractive to people. I am often stunned at how naive **-* is.

    I don't mean to say they need help in dealing with their vulnerabilities, or that they experience them as we do... just that they do have them and their threat / opportunity responses flag what they are. This is the case for anyone (I believe it was A who put me on to this way of thinking: "everybody has their tells.") Understanding this is the basis for learning effective practices for dealing with them. It's the key. Don't take their behaviour personally at all, think about what it is telling you about what's at stake for them.

    They were quick to pick up the fact that kindness was often a far better long term strategy for getting what they want than cruelty.

    Pro social behaviors can be taught to children without a conscience. Parents and teachers just need to know what they are working with


    This is probably correct. I think **-* was raised in this way. He is kind. People like and respect him. He differs from Mac in this respect.

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  2. " I liked working with them. I think I was a puzzle to them. Encountering someone who could be "touchy/feely", and who could abruptly turn off their empathy to confront them directly seemed to confuse them. I imagine that I was able to promote some interest and a sense of unease in knowing that I could see through them. Interesting people. Everyone's trying to make their way in the world."

    I work in group homes and I feel exactly the same way. :D

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    1. This para resonated with me too.

      **-* complimented me on being unbreakable, I think for similar reasons to the ones you cite.

      Everyone's trying to make their way in the world
      Exactly.

      I praise his opportunism - he says, very innocently, "it doesn't hurt to ask." I do like his approach mindset. I like the way he (and other sociopaths) find opportunities in any situation. This inspires me and makes my spirit soar. The trick is knowing he's endlessly opportunistic and won't really be dissuaded by the odd "no". This understanding changes the playing field; negotiation can be quite fun.

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    2. Techniques for dealing with sociopaths? The first and most important: don't be a sheep.

      A sociopath respects strength, and has contempt for sheep. Strength means the top priority is independence of thought and action. A sheep who is dependent and vulnerable will be entangled merely for use or entertainment value, but is not taken at all seriously.

      It is easy because a sheep loves comfort and contentedness, no matter how high the price. These cushy priorities are exactly the source of its weakness. Those relationships end up being asymmetrical in terms of the distribution of power within the relationship in favor of the sociopath. Eventually it will play itself out, he will get bored, and it will be done.

      If however the other person is real, not naive, and displays a self-respect that can hold up over time, then a different type of relationship is possible. Once deterrence figures in, the sociopath, being logical, will adapt. If he is getting something else out of the relationship, he will stay. After all, what good is opportunism of that type if you already know the other person can see through it and is strong enough to deflect it?

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    3. Hey Norgh hope ur having a great summer , still with ur fellow ?

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  3. KIndness is often a far better long term strategy. EXACTLY. Puppy basket knows this.

    How do you prove this to a sociopath? .... over time ....

    How do you prove to them that their lying ways is the way they dig their grave? Honest question. I need answers.

    Earning their trust is like taming a wild beast.

    Fun fun.

    Where is Vegas?
    Where is Faust?

    Music and Poetry.
    Vegas and Faust

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    1. 1992hfs

      I believe different socios have different way of compartmentalizing people in their lives. For me its simple, business or non-business, and everyone who belongs to people i view as "business" will never earn my trust even with kindness. People who i view as non-business are only my parents haha.

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  4. Don't take their behaviour personally at all, think about what it is telling you about what's at stake for them.

    Absolutely. That is why they are attracted to strong, loyal, kind, confident people. Those are the only people they can form some semblance of a relationship with.

    And perhaps it means the world to them. Who knows.

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  5. the comment about children reminds me somewhat of this fanfic

    http://archiveofourown.org/works/8494264/chapters/19465939

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  6. She says "drop" empathy. ME Thomas describes cognitive empathy in the book. So perspective is attainable just through control and mindfulness. Good idea for the histronic person in my life if it weren't for the catch-22 on all that.

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  7. I sometimes abruptly turn off my brain as well. Feels great.

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  8. 1992hfs

    "They were quick to pick up the fact that kindness was often a far better long term strategy for getting what they want than cruelty."

    Real socios can never feel kindness thus its impossible for them to use it as a longterm strategy. Everything is self-preservation to them, a good thing to learn when young as a socio is to control your impulse and fake empathy.The reason is to blend in because the cruelty will always be there but ofcourse this takes time and skill.

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    1. Kindness = Don't be a prick.

      Kindness is not an emotion. You can not feel kindness. It is a tool quickly learned by people on all ends of the spectrum. It is a result of an action that works well on the majority of people. There is no way to fake kindness, but you can misrepresent the reason behind it.

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  9. unrelatedly...


    Psychopaths (Crime Psychology Documentary) - Real Stories

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60vK6Uw9sSE

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    Replies
    1. and...


      10 Signs You May Be A Psychopath

      http://listverse.com/2017/08/21/10-signs-you-may-be-a-psychopath/

      [there's nothing new]

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