As a Diagnosed Autistic, and as an individual who displays antisocial traits (Irritability, lack of guilt/remorse, the ability to display a "Shallow Affect".), I find people with AS to be despicably hypocritical as it regards individuals with ASPD. They demand to be understood by "Neurotypicals", and they demand that society not demonize them and make them out to be monsters, and damn it, they demand that people respect that they're "wired differently", but they're willing to throw sociopaths, narcissists, low functioning autistics and other supposedly "Neurodiverse" people under the bus, lest God forbid, some imbecile attribute the asinine stigma they attach to other people to them. Utter cowardice. Here's a radical concept: If you're going to embrace human rights, guys, embrace them for all individuals. Otherwise they cease to be rights and become privileges for the "In Group".
Jordan C. Garrett
What do you say, autism spectrum? Should we go into this together?!
In to what?
ReplyDeleteGood question.
DeleteI once went into the supermarket one morning to buy items.
ReplyDeleteA harried mother had her young son in toe.
The boy was singing popular songs at the top of his lungs,
as though he was auditioning for a play. The mother was embarassed. You could see she was a nervous wreck, and had
no control over the boy.
I made friendly observations about the boy's "vocal talents," and
said "We must put him on Broadway." The unabated singing
continued.
On the checkout line, I discused the boy's behavior with a cashier.
"He might have autism," she said. This surprised me. "I thought
autistic's were introverted and quiet," I said. She shook her head.
"They can be loud and noisy."
I don't claim to be an expert on autism, and I don't know the
established medical approaches. But it would be difficult to see
how a child who conducted himself in an inapproiate and
ostentatious manner that early in a supermarket, could find
general acceptance in society.
I don't believe that even an autistic person would be foolish enough to trust a sociopath.
ReplyDelete"If you're going to embrace human rights, guys, embrace them for all individuals. Otherwise they cease to be rights and become privileges for the "In Group"."
ReplyDeleteHasn't this been an issue since 1789?
MelissaR
As a stupid autistic I believe the image of angels we benefit from is overrated. You see, a lot of the times people confound us with psychopaths. People fear us. Some girls even see it in my eyes... But is there truthfull source for that fear, is it rational?
ReplyDeleteIn reality I thought we had way less criminal behaviors if you look at statistics. But I'm always doubtful of statistics. Anyone knows where we could get reliable statistics about asd criminality rate?
Still, I am in favor of such a view on moral discrepancies in society. Compassion is a value that has to be applied to socios, although it should be administered with a good deal of cells and guardians. I don't think retaliation nor pardon are good ideas. If you have proven that you are a dangerous person, it's normal to be put away for the good of others. But no need to put on a gruesome medieval show of torture and filth to fit the sadistic needs of the victims relatives, which are most of the times overcharged emotionally. This is the epitome of traumagenesis, and we have to put an end to it somehow.
Isn't that a little hypocritical too? As long as they are behind cells? Are you including sociopaths who have never committed a crime?
DeleteInteresting but I think its parents to autistic children or people with autistic siblings and autistic advocators who say they're 'wired differently' and demand said respect. I don't think there are too many people, whose voice matters to the public, are willing to advocate for sociopath, narcissists or many other neurodiverse people due to stereotypes that they're dangerous, serial killers etcetera.
ReplyDelete-Katie
Actually, it has gotten to the point where it is trendy. Universities have started psychology programs with concentrations specifically into autism, not because of it being a new field, but because the public demand for "specialists" has radically jumped now that funding to support autist development has surged. It has actually become a bit of an issue, because with such a large safety net, the diagnosis has - ironically - become its own safety net / excuse.
DeleteI'll preface this by saying I know and care little for autism. Aren't people on the autism spectrum socially retarded, and thus incapable of inflicting the level of harm attributed to antisocial sociopaths? It's one thing to be charmed by a cold, socially adept sociopath, and quite another to avoid clumsy punches thrown by drooling introverted outcasts.
ReplyDeletehahahahahhaha
DeleteSocial disability actually does not preclude them from inflicting harm. They can still get angry and become violent. In severe cases, violence can occur regularly.
DeleteI said 'the level of harm'. I'm taking antisocial sociopaths to the logical extreme, which are serial killers. An autistic person might pull off a spree kill if you give it a helmet and a baseball bat and put it in a room full of invalids, but because they wear their mental deficiency on their sleeves, they will never evoke the fear that sociopaths induce in the public.
DeleteI should elaborate a little. The violence, while reactionary, can be elaborate if they are cognitively lucid. As for limits of elaboration, I do not know. I have some experience observing and interacting with various autists, but from what I have witnessed by a statistically limited sampling, I only know first-hand that they can do more than think one step ahead when it comes to intentionally inflicting harm (including non-physical).
DeleteI have read very few papers regarding autism, due to the lack of personal interest on the subject, so I can not quote from academic sources. We would have to hunt for that information.
DeleteTell us stories, Bob!
DeleteFrom personal experience? A severe case I am familiar with had an adult autist periodically physically assault his father (who was also his caretaker) when he did not get his way. Bad enough to send the father to the hospital twice. A different, more mild case I witnessed was a young child autist play the grandparents (guardians) to avoid doing what they wanted by carefully constructng deals to get them to do what she wanted (regardless of the "choices" she offered in the terms). She is still quite young, so I will have to keep a periodic eye on her behavior, in case they had the diagnosis wrong. For all I know, she could solidify genuine sociopathic traits.
DeleteInterestingly, an interview with Adam Lanza's father (Peter) was recently published in the New Yorker (online). I believe it is the first detailed account of Adam's life since the Sandy Hook tragedy. His father believes that he suffered from more than one diagnoses (Asperger's and schizophrenia), but it was never determined. His father never saw him during the last two years of his life.
Delete"All the symptoms that afflicted Adam are signs of autism that might be exacerbated by the hormonal shifts of adolescence. When Adam was thirteen, Peter and Nancy took him to Paul J. Fox, a psychiatrist, who gave a diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome (a category that the American Psychiatric Association has since subsumed into the broader diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder)."
"Both autism and psychopathy entail a lack of empathy. Psychologists, though, distinguish between the “cognitive empathy” deficits of autism (difficulty understanding what emotions are, trouble interpreting other people’s nonverbal signs) and the “emotional empathy” deficits of psychopathy (lack of concern about hurting other people, an inability to share their feelings). The subgroup of people with neither kind of empathy appears to be small, but such people may act out their malice in ways that can feel both guileless and brutal."
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2014/03/17/140317fa_fact_solomon?currentPage=1
MelissaR
I have to say I do agree somewhat with this post from the autism individual point of view. I do find some aspd and specially bpd individuals ( lots of bpd's, its revolting) put down narcissist individuals on forums…. ex blogs, facebook.
Delete(Usually they’re guilty of what they claim the narcissist to be.)
I have an ex who is Narc. He's a great father to my eldest. Always been involved and has taken responsibility for his son.
It’s a false sense of identity. If you look deeper at the personality disorder narcissism - you realize they have become lost along the way and learnt how to become their own best friend. (Obsessed with power and prestige ofcourse). It is extremely elevated and grandiose... but does happen with other personality disorders as well. a false illusion of course - swinging to the far extreme the other way.
opps meant to post at the bottom, lol.
DeleteEric people on the autism spectrum are extremely smart inside. Its a wide range spectrum. Its inward, not outward. I suck at grammar. I cant write so good, but I can read something and articulate it in my head very well. Outward, not the greatest. :)
DeleteI was trying to be incendiary, apparently I failed. Oh well, I should stick to what I'm good at. Being nice.
DeleteSuperchick: Your observations are apt, especially in regards to how these people do not see or admit it themselves.
DeleteErik: You were adequately incendiary with your comment. The issue is that due to the number of incendiary comments from other people that continually arise, your comment simply hit the baseline for this site.
Lol Eric. :)
DeleteI learn lots from you two men. and melissa and mach. (very knowledgable about the disorder). i appreciate reading all your thread posts when i come visit this blog. :)
haha I like this Eric person.
DeleteWas he being sarcastic?
DeleteNo.
DeleteHe was being mind controlled again.
I see. I was wondering how he was behaving nicely before.
Delete'Autism' is known to be caused in a child when the child is raised by sociopathic, or otherwise empathy-challenged parents or caretakers.
ReplyDelete'Refrigerator Parents', a fitting term.
"In a 1949 paper, Kanner suggested autism may be related to a "genuine lack of maternal warmth", noted that fathers rarely stepped down to indulge in children's play, and observed that children were exposed from "the beginning to parental coldness, obsessiveness, and a mechanical type of attention to material needs only.... They were left neatly in refrigerators which did not defrost. Their withdrawal seems to be an act of turning away from such a situation to seek comfort in solitude."
If you want to make a point that's more scientifically accurate it would help if you cited a more modern psychological paper, rather than one from 60+ years ago, when research and knowledge of autism was pretty limited.
DeleteA psychopath here - in middle school, we had to do electives. I was savvy enough to find out that you didn't have to do woodshop - where I would have been bullied - but could work with the special ed kids, or work in the office helping push papers. I did both of those. when working with the retards, I was shocked to find out that the fulltime professionals that worked with them weren't that gentle or kind. and some of the retard kids seemed to have mean streaks, be manipulative and disruptive and so on.
ReplyDeleteI can be very tolerant and patient when I don't feel any of my interests are at stake, so I was quite patient and kind with the retards - much more than the full timers. I did have the sense that none of the retards had chosen to be so fucked up, and in no way "deserved" blame for what they did. It did seem right to condition them - the way you would a dog - to get the desired behavior from them. Talking to some of the parents, it is clear that taking care of an adult that acts like a kid is exhausting, and you could see why some of them would conclude that before they died, they needed to off their kid, lest he fall into callous and cruel care.
While working with them, offing retards in the womb, or even infaticide, seemed reasonable, as it would free up the parents to live an easier life.
Genuine empathy has limits, and can be exhausted. It is why you find nurses becoming "jaded", not only from witnessing trauma but from daily expenditure of compassion.
DeleteOne disclaimer to note about the professional's end. Repetitive faults and the nature of the disorder combined in a group environment necessitate regimenting a structure. This structure can be inflexible, however its stability provides a focal point for an autist to work within and identify with, which is needed.
ok thank you!! that's what I've been saying
DeleteAnother interesting study on animal behaviors.
ReplyDeleteFor a human example, you may wish to take a look at the Genie case to see a case study of the same general design.
DeleteI find this to be an interesting human rights issue, just as a matter of logical consistency. I don't expect to see consideration afforded to sociopaths anytime soon, though.
ReplyDeleteI know of an aging sociopath who is loosing their marbles. It's actually very sad to watch. Powers of the past have diminished substantially, and their totally floundering. Even though said person has caused incredible damage to others, I wouldn't wish this disorder on anybody. It's clear to me this person isn't happy, and didn't choose this disorder. ME has stated herself, if she could, she'd try something different.
ReplyDeleteEmphasis on try, as in trying a new experience. To see what it is like, temporarily.
DeleteAn interesting article for most of the visitors on this blog; according to this article, a bit of psychosis can actually help those who fall on the Autism spectrum.
ReplyDeletePsychosis or Psychopathy? The two are very distinct.
DeleteBob are you a psychologist?
DeleteNo, but I do study it. My history is varied (computing, health care, education, and now back to academia).
DeleteThe reason the distinction is important is because Psychosis is defined as the "loss of contact with reality" while Psychopathy is a specific personality disorder that has no loss of contact with reality.
Bob, you should definitely give the article a read.
DeleteWhich article are you referring to?
DeleteIt's in the thread's title.
DeleteIn this case, a counterweight of hyper-mentalism would balance out autistic hypo-mentalism. Of course the trick would be to distill the one property of psychosis without retaining the others.
DeletefMRI scans have shown deficient levels of neural activity in various regions of the brain which could potentially be associated with this hypo-mentalism.
Bob what do you teach at college?
DeleteI tutor high school part-time while I study psychology.
DeleteAny-one who's examined their psyche thoroughly and deliberately for 20+ years is well aware of the dark corners and recesses of their mind. They've visited those places many times and are as aware of them as anyone else might claim to be.
ReplyDeleteThese dark recesses you refer to have always been there. The only difference now is that you see something, when you didn't see anything before.
DeleteI'm glad to see there's more comments on the site :)
ReplyDeleteBipolar empath here,
ReplyDeleteYou are all flaming idiots.
Were any of you aware that there are geniuses on the autism spectrum? Just as there are geniuses on the sociopathic spectrum.
I can see none of those geniuses post here on the blog.
You are improperly mixing two different definitions in the use of genius. The first kind is level of intellect. As special and good. The second kind, as per your last sentence, is level of sensitivity (specifically empathy).
DeleteYou are offended for obvious reasons, but for clarification - yes, everyone participating here is cognizant of the offending nature of their responses. The difference is some care, and some don't care (either out of disgust or pleasure, or out of ambivalence). If you want to put a dent in the conversation, then you should say more to your views after this so it adds more weight to it.
Bob, you're always wrong.
DeleteWhat do you provide as a counter-argument in support of the claim of inaccuracy?
DeleteWrong again, Bob.
DeleteThat's not how things work in the real world.
You'll simply have to accept that.
Sure, we'll do that.
DeleteI agree, buncha dumbasses.
DeleteI do favour sociopath-inclusive neurodiversity. I think that people should be judged as individuals, rather than as neurotypes.
ReplyDeleteSociopaths, auties/aspies, and neurotypicals seem to differ in that they possess differing psychological palettes at birth, and in extreme cases entirely inexperienced emotional "colours" relative to other types. As a secondary consequence the weakness/absence of some passionate elements shifts the temperamental ground in favour of other motives which thus become more prominent. None of this provides a rational basis upon which to judge an individual.
Yes, if a sociopath tries to harm me or defraud me, I will react badly. But my objection is to the harm or fraud, not the sociopathy, and I would have precisely the same objection if an empath treats me in the same manner. Similarly, if a herd of empaths begins trampling people in some patriotic stampede or moral panic, I don't thereby fault all people with affective emotions. People are more than their native neurology or psychological constellations and should not be subject to profiling because of their capacities.
Categorizing individuals is a universal trap that most people fall into. People give verbal acknowledgement to individual uniqueness and diversity, but rarely practice it on others. It is limitation which most do not admit to, since they believe it as an admission of guilt or wrongdoing. Which is odd, because it is a human preceptual feature, not an ego flaw.
Delete@ AspasiaMarch 11, 2014 at 8:27 PM
DeleteBy some margin, this is the most coherent, inclusive, sensible and rational post I've seen during my short time on this blog.
zerothian<
Thank you for your appreciative words. Respect certainly encourages me to converse and contribute.
DeleteI confess that I am new to these issues and should be cautious about forming a strong opinion on partial and biased knowledge, especially given that I'm an ex-Randian humanist who is only slowly adjusting to neuroscientific thinking. Nevertheless, it seems clear to me that anti-sociopathy is a prejudice of the same sort as anti-semitism, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. I desire to live in a society which enforces liberal values, and neurodiversity rights are one corollary of these human rights values.
Of course, such alliance carries reciprocal expectations~ i.e., sociopaths should support other forms of social justice politics. I don't see why this should necessarily be a problem~ the only sociopath I know makes some effort to show himself the good citizen of the liberal class, and he's genuinely one of the least prejudiced people I know.
No problem.
DeleteAnd I thoroughly agree with the lstter part of your second paragraph.
To my (undiagnosed) sociopathic mind, it's entirely rational to try and get on with others and to respect differences. It's good sense to have neurodiversity as well as the physical kind.
Zerothian
I hope this helps.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodiversity#cite_note-14