Good seduction?

I was talking a friend recently who was having a little bit of relationship trouble, specifically a little bit of a lack of reciprocation in interest with a new paramour. My friend is (for various reasons) the type to value being straightforward and direct about things -- the type to bemoan the gamesmanship of modern love, e.g. waiting to respond to someone, not appearing too interested, etc. "Don't wait to text back" are the sorts of platitudes you sometimes see in sappy and misguided social media posts, as if it is so brave and honorable to text someone back right away rather than trying to doing them the favor of making them desire you more than they thought they could ever desire another human being.

This has been a topic that my post-graduating-from-therapy-self has been thinking about for a little bit now -- what role does seduction or other types of potentially "good" manipulation have in healthy relationships? Because my first thought when my friend was telling me this story was maybe my friend needed to read the Art of Seduction, or Dangerous Liaisons, or get any sort of game for the sake of the paramour and for the good of the relationship. Because seducing and game aren't necessary always insidious. I've said it before, and even after dropping most manipulation from my emotional daily vocabulary I still believe it -- everyone wants to be seduced.

I asked me friend, "what is it you like about your paramour"? The answer: mystery, and the charming way the paramour goes about doing things in which everything feels like a pleasant surprise. It's the little things, so little that my friend was almost reluctant to tell me because it seemed silly. Things like giving up your reserved parking spot and parking on the street for the other person, working some connections to get into a hip new place, taking care of everything -- planning, paying, and otherwise trying to anticipate and then meeting another person's needs and wants. In the "old days" they called this "wooing", but they could have called it seduction because what it is at its heart is trying to induce feelings of love, affection, or desire in another person. It's manipulation, but it's not "bad" manipulation, and by that I mean it's not at all unwanted (in a consensual romantic relationship, stalking is another story).

I'm not saying to lie or pretend to be someone other than who you are not to get someone to fall in love with a fantasy. But there is nothing deceptive about (to go back to the earlier example) waiting a reasonable amount of time to text someone back in order to heighten the recipient's anticipation and pleasure when they finally do hear back from you. There is nothing deceptive about encouraging mystery and a sense of discovery between each other rather than dumping all of your personal information and baggage on during the first few dates. It's not whether people deserve or don't deserve honesty, it's that people don't really want honesty in that form in this arena. Maybe that's controversial to say, and certainly there would be plenty of people who probably truly do (anti-seducers, for one). But most just say they want the honesty. What they end up choosing is to be swept off their feet by someone who keeps them guessing, by someone who mixes a bittersweet and puzzlingly compelling blend of frustration and satisfaction in their interactions. Romantic love feels better when it's a bit of a challenge and involves a healthy amount of guesswork and angst. I don't know if it's absolutely necessary to use actual seductive skills to achieve this result, but it's certainly one of the most reliable and effective ways. It takes quite a bit of effort to seduce, and at least some skill. Consequently, there seems to be much more demand than supply for seduction. The fact that everyone wants to be seduced but there is such little actual seduction happening suggests that seducing someone, particularly seducing well, is one of the nicest things you could ever do for another person. Don't you think?

The Wolf of Your Street

Andy Jones writes for Men's Health UK about how I (sort of) mentored him to (sort of) success. The article is pretty entertaining. One of my favorite stories:

Olga, our cleaner, has to go. My partner Jennifer adores her, even though her work is sloppy. Also I'm paying 40 a week for someone to break stuff and push a vacuum around. Empathetic Me would have given he a warning; then -- if I had to -- the 'it's not you it's me' talk and sent her off with a tip. Weak. 

Sociopaths don't just take what they want, says Thomas. They take more. "Say a friend is selling a car for 5000 and another is looking to buy one for 10,000. Most people would simply put the two in touch. Not me. I would buy form the first friend, sell it to the second and double my money." Emboldened by Thomas's ruthlessly simple rationale, I corner Olga on Monday, cleaning day

"We're done here. No more cleaning." 

"Ok, I see you next week." 

"No, I no longer need a cleaner." 

"But Jennifer..." she starts. "No, I am saying I don't need a cleaner."

Now for the profit: I like to Jen that I have booked the cleaner for the next week then do a deliberately half-arsed job of cleaning the house myself. Jen notices the house is still a tip. "You know what, you're right -- we need to let Olga go." I offer to do the firing -- covering my tracks while looking both decisive and strong -- and pocket the 40. Later on, conscience racked, I pay for dinner. This kind of stuff doesn't come naturally. Deep down, I'm a nice guy. On a night out both the drinks and the jokes are on me. I'm ambitious but cautious and often think what I could achieve with sharper elbows.

I really enjoy hearing about empaths trying out sociopathic traits, although I wouldn't have bothered cleaning the flat, even half-arsed, I would have just told Jennifer that she decided to move back to Estonia (but I guess he did get some money out of it?). It's funny that many of them see it as something to aspire to, as if they could accomplish many more of their dreams if they just toughened up a bit. But frequently as they start toughening up, they start realizing that accomplishing the dream is not actually the most important thing to them. And I think that's good for them. Good for them to realize that there are other things they would rather have than that particular brass ring, so they can stop pining for it and feeling miserable when they don't get it. Because it is not all that sociopathic to be envious (except for the mythological covetous sociopath, whom I sort of suspect is just a malignant narcissist?).

But don't stop at that realization, I say. Explore the experience for what exactly it is that you really do want above all else. For instance, later in the article he describes being sociopathic in his relationship:

In the bedroom, I've been persistent in my campaign against Jen's negligence with negligees. It's working. "I like this power game," Jen purrs, as she tries the lacy ensemble I've picked. But I don't enjoy manipulating her. Being a sociopath is fine in emails. Face to face, it's a very different matter.

Not to read too much into what is mainly just an entertaining piece, but it's interesting that he says he doesn't enjoy manipulating her. And I'm sure he doesn't. But why? Is it because he thinks she doesn't like being manipulated? Because it seems like she does, at least in this seductive way (everyone wants to be seduced). The problem seems to be more that manipulation doesn't suit his "nice guy" vision he has for himself, even if that is exactly what his partner desires from him apparently. If so, this example sort of supports my theory that one reason that sociopaths are such charming chameleons is because they have a weak sense of self, i.e. that they don't allow their own need for personal integrity and identity to interfere with their desire to please another.

Also, apropos of nothing, but have I noticed before that "pathetic" is in "empathetic"? There must be some interesting shared root analysis there.

How to Manipulate People

This was a good Lifehacker article on how to manipulate people (quick read, worth reading in its entirety). The following are the headings from the article along with my thoughts on each suggestion:

• Emotion vs. Logic: Appealing to emotion rather than logic in manipulation is a little bit of a no brainer. Not only do most people respond better to emotion than logic, irrational people often best (only?) respond to fear. 

• Master Your Own Emotions: Mastering your emotions means essentially two things -- being able to divorce your emotions from what is happening externally (look at this article for helpful suggestions of how) and being able to project the right emotions in the right circumstances to create the desired illusions. 

• Be Charming and Flirt Often: I love to flirt. I flirt with everyone. I used to flirt only with people that I could see myself wanting to seduce, but then the person who first called me a sociopath famously told me that she flirts with everyone, gay or straight because everyone likes positive attention everyone wants to be seduced.

• Overcome Trust Issues and Heal Doubt: Building trust with your target is often critical, see number 2 here (does Lifehacker read this blog? or have a sociopath on staff cluing them in?)

• Conceal Evil in Altruism: This step means pretty much what it says and is super popular with celebrities, billionaires and politicians.

• What to Do If You're Discovered: In addition to backpedaling and creating doubt in your target's mind as to whether you were actually manipulating them, I also suggest starting a counter insurgency campaign against them where you are spinning the message to favor you and disfavor them (Oliver North is a good example of this) if they're an enemy, or possibly proposing some sort of alliance if they're a friend or loved one (think Skyler White in Breaking Bad). Of course the best course of action is to prophylactically insure against this by building an actual, legitimate reputation for good (at least in certain areas) for people to cross-reference. 

Also, beware the anti-seducer, for they cannot be manipulated.

Sociopath kryptonite

One my friends is kryponite. By that I mean she is totally immune to my charms. This is my favorite characteristic about her. I love being around someone for whom any mask I wear is completely ineffectual. There is no temptation or expectation that I be anything other than myself. Some of my other favorite people will sometimes become weak and require me to wear a mask -- the mask of understanding or compassion or humanity, when they feel they need it. With her, it's all completely unnecessary. She may wish that I was something other than what I am sometimes, but she knows nothing's going to change that.

I don't know what it is that makes her so immune. I do know that she is consummately reasonable. Are the two connected?

In Robert Greene's, "The Art of Seduction," he talks about different seduction targets, including the anti-seducer. He warns seducers, "Root out anti-seductive qualities in yourself, and recognize them in others." And warns against choosing an anti-seducer for a target: "There is no pleasure or profit in dealing with the anti-seducer." There may be no pleasure or profit for the seducer, but maybe there is a benefit to being the anti-seducer -- invulnerability.

Sometimes I envy my friend's kryptonite qualities. Unlike her, I can actually be seduced or manipulated relatively easy, if you know what buttons to push. This friend remains unflappable in all circumstances, but as you can imagine, she also lives a relatively lonely, arguably sad, and perhaps soulless life. Everyone wants to be seduced, probably even part of her. With risk comes reward, and with nothing ventured, nothing is earned. I wouldn't want to be incapable of being seduced/manipulated, like she is, because I think it can frequently be fun. But I still think that invulnerability would be a useful skill. Is it just a matter of being difficult to please?

Seducing too well

Everyone wants to be seduced. There are risks to seduction, but the person being seduced is almost always willing to take them—the allure of seduction is too strong. What people don't usually think about are the risks to the person doing the seduction. There are hazards to seducing too well. It's like building a fire: there are a lot of types of fires you can build, from slow-burning, red-hot coals, to flashes in the pan that burn quickly up and quickly out. The type of fire you never want is one that gets so big you burn down your house.

Seductees are subject to the whims of seducers, but seducers are subject to the emotional outbursts and vagaries of seductees, which can often be much worse. If the seducer maintains control over the seductee, these outbursts can often be reigned in. Logic can and will prevail. Seduce too well, however, and terrible things can happen to both sides. Who do you think gets murdered more frequently? Seducers or seductees?

Even if you are not getting killed, there's the risk of major emotional fallout when you seduce too well. People can get so into you that it cripples them. They lose touch with reality. They become a walking ball of emotions ready to spew at anyone who gets near them—your family and friends, your landlord, your neighbors. If they get jealous, you're toast. How will you ever get rid of them? They are unstable, and any attempt to separate from them will likely include you on the collateral damage list.

I recently over-seduced. Part of the problem was that we met once, then didn't meet again for a month or more. Letting that much time elapse is tricky. It's like throwing a match on a wood pile and walking away. When you come back your fire could be thriving, or it could be dead. I planned the activity to be "strong" enough that even if the fire had died out, I could still revive it, thinking I could later temper it if it seemed too much.

The second complication was that during that particular night I was tired and sick and could only bring myself to ask probing questions. I came across as mysterious, intense, and interested. After the night, I was almost immediately assaulted by phone calls and SMS messages. The fire I built had gotten out of control—this person was obsessed with me. I thought about just writing off the seduction attempt as a loss, but I'm a scrapper so I hung in there. I replied, but not frequently. I made and canceled plans. I used my illness and the holidays as an excuse. When we met again, I spoke straightforwardly about the seduction, in a way to keep the person both flattered and interested, but not seriously interested in me.

It was worth it, I suppose. I mean, it's like watching a movie where you already know the ending—the movie may still be good (hopefully it's a good movie), but the thrill is gone. And I'm constantly worried about over-seduction relapses because people are into people who can seduce so well, then talk intelligently about it afterward. So overall, not a complete success...

Relationships

I am currently in the longest serious relationship that I have been in for approximately the past decade.  I used to not be good at any long term relationship.  Even family relationships would have blow ups and times of estrangement.  I got sick of the drama so I started learning little ways to keep the ship righted.  Now I resolve small issues before they become big issues and I ensure that I am always a net positive in their life.  I basically just channeled my efficiency obsessed self into it, and I am quite good at it now.

The things I have been thinking about recently is what is the proper role of manipulation in a relationship?  I have always said that everyone wants to be seduced (trademark pending?  I feel like that should be the sequel to "Everyone Poops").  With this current relationship, I performed the seduction perfectly.  To use a baseball analogy, it's been my no-hitter.  It was not easy and it was not always clear that it would turn out so well.  (I almost think that it was because I felt no expectations about the relationship being anything but a fun distraction.  I felt no performance pressure, so I performed nearly perfectly.)  I'd tell you about it, but like a baseball no-hitter, the story of a perfect seduction is actually sort of boring.

My question is, now that I have a relationship that seems like it could last and I am interested in exploring that option, do I keep seducing?  Or actually get real?  Well, that's sort of not the question anymore because I have already gotten at least a more real as the relationship has progressed.  I guess it's more like, stay real?  Or step back in and "fix," seduce, or manipulate when the situation warrants it?  Or I guess that's not really the question either, because framed that way the answer would of course be step back in.  I think the question is more like, when would the situation warrant it?  Should it be a most of the time thing?  Or only part of the time?

Things I think:

• If people could be manipulated/seduced into being happy without knowing that is the source fo their happiness, they would typically choose that (ignorance is bliss, blue pill over the red pill, or everyone wants to be seduced).
• Some people would feel betrayed if they ever did find out that they were being "managed."
• People find things out eventually, or things have a way of being found out.
• Small fixes sometimes just mask bigger problems that don't have such easy "fixes".  
• I tend to respect people less in proportion to the amount that I manipulate them.  
• Manipulation is turning down an opportunity to try to find a real mutual understanding on an issue.
• Mutual understanding usually means the other person is getting better at pleasing me, i.e. reciprocating the seduction/maintenance.  

Other than that, I really don't know what to think.  And yes I realize how funny it is for me to be asking you for relationship advice for a change.  

Criminal sociopathy (part 3)

(cont.)

This is really what I wanted to write to you about. I have many crazy stories, because I've had a crazy life. The turning point in my life came when I actually understood and listened to those words. When I went to prison and had time to understand myself. That's not to say I'm not living a lie right now. Its to say I know I live the lie and I don't give a shit. Right. Like you said before, we all wear masks. Our sociopath brains are just programmed to take the information we receive and process it in certain distorted ways. The key is understanding that this happens and trying to learn our own brain's proclivities and those of people that we are trying to relate with or control.

I've stopped denying that I manipulate people. I know I do and I'm proud I can. Because of that I'm able to focus it on people I need to instead of doing it to everyone. Yes! So much of the maturation of a sociopath is learning how to focus our energies.

In reality people need to be manipulated and they want to be. So true. A good example I use with people is seduction. Everyone wants to be seduced. Also magic and religion. Everyone wants to be tricked, to believe in miracles. Even I do.

The difference between a sociopath and other personality types is just the amazing ability to manipulate on a grand scale and even manipulate ourselves. To believe that we are the best and the most amazing person in the world and put it into practice. his is something that a lot of low functioning sociopaths don't understand: you can manipulate yourself just as easily as you can manipulate those around you. iIn some ways it is harder because you are aware you are doing it and can fight against it, in some ways it is easier because you know yourself better and so can push your own buttons more effectively. Everyone does this on a small scale -- rewarding themselves for "good behavior," buying themselves an ice cream cone for job well done, etc. As a sociopath, though, I would say that this is the primary way in which I control my actions instead of giving in to every impulse.

We lie because people want the lie. They can't handle reality and for that reason they can't handle truth. Don't want it, wouldn't believe it even you told them it. People have their own view of the world, and if what you are telling them doesn't comport, they will just think you are lying or are ignorant.

I don't need to feel guilty or remorseful and I don't try to because everyone else thinks I should. People love me more for it. I get any girl I want. When I tried to go legit I got any job I wanted. I lied on applications, and elaboratly lied on interviews. I lie to my parents so much they think I own my own business when really I sell drugs. I change the stories about how I'm at the club networking for production companies to hook them up with DJs when really I'm there hustling.

Currently I'm using the clubs and my clients to practice manipulation even more. I get people hooked on coke at the club and call them to tempt them later in the week to buy more. I don't do the product myself and when they ask me why I tell them its out of respect for the customer. I tell them coke dealers who do their own stuff rip off the customer, which is true. The lie is the fact I don't do it because I don't need drugs to feel amazing I already feel that way. Excessive amounts of serotonin and propensity to feel euphoria. I always give people the lie that they seem most likely to believe, which is usually the one that is most complimentary to them.

I sell false self esteem to them that lasts a hour or two before their back to their pathetic life of misery. As for respecting the customer I lost respect for them the minute they bought the first 20 bag I used to get them hooked. if they had it at all.

I study personlaties, which is what's getting me into psychology. I understand people even though they'll never understand me (nor do I want them to). Me too, although sometimes I actually want to be understood. Or at least appreciated/admired.

Me and my homies call it putting people together. They do it on a small scale cuz I just started teaching them. I ask people questions about their life. I love the imagery of you teaching your thug friends all about psychology.

People like talking bout themself honestly(this rants one of the few times I actually talked about myself honestly), or sometimes dishonestly but they can't lie to me. It is amazing how willing people are to talk about themselves. They must realize how it puts them at a disadvantage. It can't all be motivated by narcissism. I have found that many empaths would rather be at a disadvantage, or at least would rather you have control over a relationship rather than them. Why that is, I have no idea.

I can see through almost any bullshit. One of a sociopath's most useful/deadly talents.

I let them talk and listen till I figure them out. I've discovered many personality types and how to identify them. How to find insecurities. How to exploit them or even how to fix them. Ha, it is so natural, isn't it? People ask how we do it, but it's hard to explain. I think it is because we just have no preconceived notions about people. Most people think that others are like them. We know that almost no one is like us, so we never make that mistake. People are always shocked at what I immediately recognize about them. Things that they think are absolutely private. With an artist friend, I immediately asked him why his paintings were monochromatic. He was shocked that he had never noticed that about them before (I was shocked too). I notice patterns, I make connections. I know why you didn't go through with your plastic surgery, why you refuse to fault your daddy for anything, when you are giving excuses and when you are telling the truth. And I know it within the first minutes of knowing you.