Tuesday, May 31, 2011

Do narcissists love?

I've been reading Sam Vaknin's book "Malignant Self Love" and thought I would share his opinion on how narcissists view love, in contrast to how sociopaths conceive of love:
Do narcissists miss loving, would they have liked to love and are they angry with their parents for crippling them so?

To the narcissist, these questions are incomprehensible. There is no way he can answer them. Narcissists never love. They do not know what is it that they are supposedly missing. Observing it from the outside, love seems to them to be a risible pathology. They equate love with weakness. They hate being weak and they hate and despise weak people (such as the very old, the sick, the poor, and the very young). They do not tolerate what they consider to be stupidity, disease and dependence - and love seems to be comprised of all three. These are not sour grapes. They really feel this way.

Narcissists are angry men - but not because they never experienced love and probably never will. They are angry because they are not as powerful, awe inspiring and successful as they wish they were and, to their mind, deserve to be. Because their daydreams refuse so stubbornly to come true. Because they are their worst enemy. And because, in their unmitigated paranoia, they see adversaries plotting everywhere and feel discriminated against and contemptuously ignored.

105 comments:

  1. Did someone say something?

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  2. No one else will ever be as important to them as they are to themselves. It's the definition of their world. Narcs love themselves. They don't love anyone else.

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  3. Narcissists are hypersensitive to the smallest remark.

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  4. The Narcissists can't step outside themselves and will never experience the world from the perspective of another person, they have no life experience yet can appear incredibly wise, they are a spoiled extremely manipulative six year old.

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  5. that is a good article from sam, are most serial killers narcissists? nearly all tended to have problems with their mother (as did sam) and later went on to murder women. both hitler and stalin were terrified of emotional intimacy also.

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  6. As always it is a question of degree- Vaknin wrote the book on malignancy-- I've found many more accomplished who have constructed lives of (nearly) ample supply.

    They  "love", by definition, as a reflection of themselves, and reward or punish in whatever currency inhabits their fantasies.  Archetypal exchanges abound: money for sex, servitude gets 'care' and keep.

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  7. I guess it depends on if the narcissist is willing to change.

    Unlike some of the other disorders like P/S, narcissism is something that develops from 'nature and nurture'.

    The lack of empathy and selfishness is something that is conditioned, not something that they can't control. I assume that with appropriate dedication, self-awareness, and support, they can learn to love the way that altruistic people do.

    I think it's better to say that its rare for them to actually love, since many do not wish to change, and are self-serving

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  8. The narcissist is unlikely to change what he believes are advantages, like a lack of empathy, and need for control. There haven't been many successful treatments with narcissists, narcissism is their only defense to the outside world, it saved them from crumbling in childhood and they may stay like that.

    The reason why narcissists don't love isn't exactly because they only think of themselves, it's much more rooted in the all consuming fear of intimacy, they can't even bond with their friends.

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  9. "I guess it depends on if the narcissist is willing to change."

    Can a narcissist actually want to change?

    "Unlike some of the other disorders like P/S, narcissism is something that develops from 'nature and nurture'."

    Are we sure that P/S isn't both as well?

    "I think it's better to say that its rare for them to actually love, since many do not wish to change, and are self-serving"

    Isn't it all are self-serving. When you love yourself absolutely why would you ever want to change?

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  10. in my family there are some who agree:

    we love love, we love to love, but we don't know how to love.. My MOST generous and loving thoughtful relative has observed this over time.. we have a big family.

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  11. They are projection machines.

    They think that people can see right through them - The narcissist see's right through others.

    They believe others are out to get them - The narcissist is out to get others.

    They call people arrogant and greedy - The narcissist is arrogant and greedy.

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  12. ...there are a lot of "married thrice"

    don't know if there are studies out there or if there is any significance...

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  13. Deep down they do not love themselves Kesu, look at Sam Vaknin. The guy looks like the most miserable person in the world. They get worse and worse with age.

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    1. I agree. In all of their pictures they cant even smile..They are a lost soul...

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  14. Ayn rand was a narc, a miserable old hag.

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  15. lots of sadness from the children,you can tell.

    the worst offender left his kids in another country with a psychotically depressed wife

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  16. i wouldn't have a kid , lest that shit be genetic

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  17. misery loves company

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  18. devil made me do it

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  19. my family loves ayn rand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    hahhahahahahahah

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  20. fuckin got that right, s o s

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  21. baby inflicting painMay 31, 2011 at 8:59 AM

    must inflict pain to children now!

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  22. people actually believe that he is insane to this day, because he blamed the devil. shows that people will always believe in lies. then again the fucker is still in jail.

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  23. "Deep down they do not love themselves Kesu, look at Sam Vaknin. The guy looks like the most miserable person in the world. They get worse and worse with age."

    People always say deep down this and that. Does this deep down really exist? I realize that narcs get a full range of emotion but do they have depth? Aren't they simply as deep as the persona they live?

    When you wake up every morning look in the mirror and say "Wow, you are fucking amazing" I would think it wouldn't matter what you looked like to yourself. Narcs may be blind but it's only because they are staring at themselves through such rosy colored glasses.

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    1. I'm a classic narcissist. I started looking into my irrational anger a few years ago and through multiple professionals slowly gained a path to self-awareness.

      It's a very weird place to be... simultaneously being aware of my behavior, why it arises, how it impacts the quality of my life (negatively), and still believing that I'm perfect, better than other people, am above things like love an empathy an intimacy, etc.

      It's like there are multiple layers - the outer layer is an act that plays roles to gain narcissistic supply. Underneath that is the spiteful, hateful individual who despises others for being inferior or for any action that threatens the defense mechanism / identity - fears intimacy for the loss of control and vulnerability.

      But I'm starting to realize, that even deeper, there's a terrified and broken little boy who believes he's fundamentally unlovable.

      But how is it possible to heal or grow or change when an entire personality and identity genuinely believes it is perfect? My work in therapy, if I'm honest with myself, is just another source of supply - getting to feel superior to those other narcissists who are too stupid to have found self-awareness. Any attempts at change is just going through the motions.

      Anyways... on the surface, narcissism is very simple, but in manifests in complex and interesting ways. We have a deep down just like any other person, it just feels painful and weak to acknowledge it... so it gets covered up.

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  24. True I didn't mean deep down. They aren't deep people, I just mean in general.

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  25. i heard that narcs attract borderlines like moths to a flame, the narcissist will manipulate the fuck out of the borderline and soul rape them.

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    1. It is the truly sick dance they get locked in ive seen it. In couples more than once They are together for long period and it ends badly from what ive seen but what can you expect with a Dynamic Duo like that...

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  26. i meant the borderline will attract the narcs, because the narc is so adept at spotting vulnerable people, and who is more vulnerable than a beeper woman?

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  27. ^I know what you mean. I am deeply in love with Haven. lol

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  28. narcissists don't come off as an asshole from the get go. like sociopaths they seem as sensitive and sweet at the beginning, gradually the real face of the person will show. every good manipulator hides their intentions very well.

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  29. Less peacocking, more sniping please.

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  30. most women that come out of relationships with narcissists feel dirty and used.

    check this out, full of idiot codependents.

    http://www.lisaescott.com/share-your-story

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  31. anyone who can't see through Sam Vaknin's con is a fool. Ayn Rand is not a narrc. She is too honest and too often takes an unpopular stand.

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  32. ..soul rape them.

    Lawl.

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  33. What con? He offers legit insight into a narcissists mind, I knew one and basically everything he says fits him exact. You are on a witch hunt.

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    1. Yup agreed ive seen i firsthand and nothing ive read decribes it more accurately. He may be NPD or Psychopath or may not but he defnitely know how they operate

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  34. I've met Sam and Lisa. They suck!

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  35. Wow I went to that link you posted anon and the moment I saw the page I felt dirty and used.

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  36. from lisaescott..

    The ex-P was weirdly sexless. He'd call me a slut if I wore a dress or a skirt

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  37. Towards the end of our relationship I was hit, degraded and treated like a prostitute during sex.

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  38. ME has really studied law 27. Insider's terminologies, check. Create an enemy, check. Create self manipulation, check. Define who can join and who can't, check. Distrust the rest of society, check.

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  39. @Wet What? Can you explain that?

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  40. I think he is implying that this is a cult and you are followers, which is a flawed statement in so many ways.

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  41. I am sick when I am thinking about it.

    FAIL

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  42. I was retained by the Brooklyn district attorney's office to help determine whether Mr. Berkowitz was mentally fit for trial, I examined Mr. Berkowitz and concluded that while he was mentally disturbed, he was nevertheless competent to face a jury.

    There was no thought disorder, no insanity, no deterioration of judgment. Rather, I argued, Mr. Berkowitz manifested a psychopathic personality.

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  43. Well, duh, Dr. Abrahamsen.

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  44. Well spoken and appears completely harmless.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otm7IFhwDQ0

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  45. batshit

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC5huwZoPZA

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  46. The Dr's SecretaryMay 31, 2011 at 9:46 AM

    Actually his opinion was lone at the time.

    The good Dr. was also well known for requiring institutionalized patients to sign assets over to him prior to recommending their release.

    Probably not enough for an appeal but a nice demonstration of the differences between high and low functioning and what a difference bloodlust can make.

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  47. the high functioners don't leave a legacy :)

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  48. ::laughs:: Kesu. Let's live a life of misery together shall we? If nothing else, it'd be exciting ;)

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  49. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9jRDHGabp8

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  50. I love this guy. The night stalker. He is really see through though. Funny as hell.

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  51. he is a nutcase he stabbed a granny like 15 times and cut out her eyeballs, pretty sure he raped her and told her to hail satan too lols

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  52. Not a legacy, an estate.

    There is something mercurial in the diagnoses. Maybe it takes one to know one, or maybe that's just Tom Harris's fiction.

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  53. I don't think there are many psychopaths at the top of society, maybe one or two. The majority are narcissistic imo.

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  54. Exactly. Let's burn together Haven.

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  55. If you are clinically diagnosed as a psychopath without having been forced by court to be assessed, would a court or job find out you are one?

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  56. There are more Narcs at the top in part because there are more narcs in general and the traits can be reinforced or accrue with success.

    Its an advantage to have a Teflon skin, even if it makes you entirely noxious to everyone else.

    Anon 10:15- -Obviously, you would lie.

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  57. I'm watching the Stone Phillips/Jeffery Dahmer interview and you know what. I think Dahmer's dad is the one with psychopathic gene. The guy is completely flat. He says I have immense pain inside but there is nothing on the surface.

    Also, Dahmer is completely open. Calm docile. Does small talk. Flat though for the most part. Not charismatic. Also, his father wrote a book. I think the guy was just trying to profit.

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  58. And there are laws regarding disclosure of medical info.

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  59. Dahmer was diagnosed as a borderline by many professionals, he was terrified of abandonment, that is why he kept the deceased with him, his parents never gave a shit about him either. Ramirez and Bundy are both psychopaths.

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  60. Wow. The dad is completely psychopathic. Everyone is eating up what the guy says and attacks the mother with it. It's incredible no one sees it either. He plays stone like a fiddle.

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  61. Whilst Dahmer never had a mother figure in his life, Ted and Ramirez had adoring mothers and harsh male authority figures, Ramirez's dad had a violent temper and beat the kids but his mother was soft as was Bundy's, the child learned to hate authority and manipulate the weak mother.

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  62. May 31, 2011 9:34 AM Anon

    Power is a piece of music. The way Me is playing it sounds similar to that of a cult, as described by Robert G.

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  63. Check this one, Kesu. Born manipulator.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbwXDcLA3Cc

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  64. why are you getting all philosophical on me?

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  65. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  66. Anon said, "Dahmer was diagnosed as a borderline by many professionals, he was terrified of abandonment"

    I was just reading an article that supported this (not necessarily the borderline diagnosis but the fear of being alone) which I found amusing... "Dahmer and Nilsen have stated that they killed simply for company (Palermo and Martens, in press). Both men had no friends and their only social contacts were occasional encounters in homosexual bars. Nilsen watched television and talked for hours with the dead bodies of his victims; Dahmer consumed parts of his victims' bodies in order to become one with them: he believed that in this way his victims lived further in his body."

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  67. Haven look up Danny Rolling, he was a bpd serial killer.

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  68. Most of what I've read peg Dahmer as a Psychopath. I don't really see him as beeper.

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  69. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  70. Oh Dahmer was definitely a psychopath. I just find the anons abaondonment parallel amusing.

    @Anon, I'll look him up

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  71. I dunno. He might not have been a psychopath maybe a schizo but I don't think he had hallucinations. Maybe he just didn't tell anyone that he did.

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  72. I don't know, he just didn't have that smart aleck side to him that most primary psychopaths have, he was completely silent in all of his court appearances. A true psychopath would make a show in the court or act in their own defense, they don't take anything seriously.

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  73. Where is his narcissism? he didn't give a shit about how he appeared to others, isn't pathological narcissism part of the psychopaths personality? If i was in court I'd be thinking about how I'm going to be remembered forever, it's circus time!

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  74. Look at Richard Kuklinski(Iceman). He was a lot like Dahmer. Completely open. Didn't give a shit about his appearance. Supposedly at home he was a good father and a loving husband. I would say though that Iceman is the difference between a Sociopath and a Psychopath.

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  75. Kuklinski terrorised his family so much his son kept a bat under his bed. You prove yourself to be a fool.

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  76. Danny Rolling was clearly a sociopath. What the hell makes u think he was a beeper Anon?

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  77. The wife said he never hurt the children. He also said the same. I dunno. That is why I said supposedly. Thanks for reading idiot.

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  78. This is strange. Today, we seem to be playing Pick a Different Pathology to Speak About.

    Sociopath World does a blog on Narcs

    Beyond the Borderline Personality does a blog on Psychopaths

    And I do a blog on Borderlines

    Weird.

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  79. His father abused him badly notme, he had no self esteem and was an alcoholic. He wasn't a sociopath. He was a victim of his circumstances.

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  80. He was obviously lying kesu, and so was she out of fear or respect. Men like him don't give a fuck about kids. They don't see it as, oh my daddy beat me so I'm never going to do that to my kid. He's going to say I'm going to beat my kid worse to get my revenge.

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  81. I dunno anon. I honestly just don't know. There was one point in one of the documentaries where he actually cried about disappointing his family.

    There was another point where he talks about killing a friend because the guy threatened his family. The guy even said that the only reason he did it was because it was the only way he saw to get to iceman.

    Also they asked the wife and the husband had been in jail for a long time already and she kept with the story. Even though she said lots of things against him and how horrible the things he had done and even called him monstrous for it.

    I have to say it looked real. It looked like he actually cared about them. Now he did mention that his wife knew that he could get violent when angry.

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  82. yeah yeah yah yeah yeh yeh yeah

    Narcs can't see past their own needs enough to fake it, and that is why they're so incredibly transparent.

    They cry because they missed out on something, not because they did you harm. NEVER underestimate why a narc is crying real tears. It's got nothing to do with you. Their "guilt" is only them feeling sorry for themselves.

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  83. sometimes I think self pity is a form of narcissism.

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  84. He beat his wife badly and the sister and younger brother had to hide it from the oldest, so he wouldn't kill himself trying to get vengeance on Richard Kuklinski. He once put a gun in her hand and told her to shoot him because that would be the only way he would stop beating her. Like I said you are a romanticised idiot Kesu.

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  85. She knew who she married. In cases like this she put herself in the situation. Its like a girl getting raped because she didnt wear underwear. She deserved it.

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  86. I'm not romanticizing anything. I could hardly care less whether he beat them or not. I'm simply stating that I don't know. There are conflicting accounts. All sides have reasons to lie.

    Now read what I write not what you make up in your own head you twit.

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  87. Putting panties back onMay 31, 2011 at 9:48 PM

    Right.

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  88. My younger sister (nineteen,) regards me as a narcissist, where I find equally identifying traits in sociopathy and narcissism. I think that some of the generalisations I'm seeing are simply untrue, if I am indeed, a narcissist.

    Haven said...

    No one else will ever be as important to them as they are to themselves. It's the definition of their world. Narcs love themselves. They don't love anyone else.
    May 31, 2011 3:59 AM

    Possibly. I have a girlfriend, and I love her dearly. I don't feel she's necessary to my survival as a human, however, and I don't miss her - I don't miss anyone. I don't remember what it feels like, if I ever have missed someone. I've always savoured time alone, as a heavy introvert. I only really care about people to the extent of how, and if, they serve my needs.

    Anonymous said...

    The Narcissists can't step outside themselves and will never experience the world from the perspective of another person, they have no life experience yet can appear incredibly wise, they are a spoiled extremely manipulative six year old.
    May 31, 2011 7:22 AM

    I would accept the 'spoiled extremely manipulative six year old' description. How can I not, having said the above? I'd also agree that I can't experience the world as another person. I believe its probable that I could envision it, I just don't care to. I believe in selfishness, as an ideal.
    I have to contest 'no life experience,' however. I've had a remarkable life, starting with my birth, which served to alienate me from humanity, as a teenager. I can give exceptional counselling, and insight into people, but I only care to if I'm getting a generous reward.

    I'm not sure about this fear of intimacy I see mentioned. I disagree, actually. I really enjoy being intimate, but I can only take so much before its stifling.

    Anyway, just adding my two cents.

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  89. I think I'm a Narcissist.

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  90. 9:04 AM

    ever turn tables on a narcissist?

    crushing blow. Paralysed. Last one I had the pleasure of tangling with couldn't /wouldn't say whether I hurt his feelings. Crushed, deservedly.

    When i called him out on his shit, he said: "You..you don't know me"

    Totally blamed me for his actions. A Yup, pedo material.

    Take a guess what he does for a living.

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  91. The difference between how narcissists conceive of love and how sociopaths do it, if you believe M.E.'s interpretation, illustrates why people will always like psychopaths more than narcissists. Psychopaths can exasperate the shit out of people, but deep down, you get the sense that they enjoy it. Bring in the narcissist, and suddenly people want to vomit, no matter how nice he tries to be.

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  92. I wholeheartedly agree. I had a narc ask me with sweet face whether he was the cause of the break up of my long term relationship. -stopped at the vomitorium on my way home.

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  93. Narcs are indeed hypersensitive to even the smallest remark. This illustrates again another fundamental difference between the two: internally, the narcissist is a weakling. Contrarily, the psychopath has much more internal strength than the average person.

    To anon, yeah I have turned the tables on a narcissist. Even then, it was unintentional and I didn't realize I was touching a weak point until I saw his reaction. Their strong acts and their narcissistic rages transform into a hurt puppy dog expression rather quickly. lol

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  94. I am a narcissist and I love.

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  95. *sniff sniff*
    I simply cannot have any sort of hostility in my life, Bella.

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  96. I think I am an inverted narcissist. Fuck. Knew that shit was coming. Thanks Mom. Thanks Dad. Love you!
    ! Oh, and Fuck off assholes here at sw, because I am deeply hurt by the true narcs. i can only be around the real socios, for they are the highest quality, and I need only the best.


    oh, and don't you worry. Tomorrow's another day and this above statement will be a figment of my imagination. i shall chalk it up to the wind.

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  97. <a>Jason&lt;\a&gt;</a>July 21, 2011 at 5:59 PM

    gh

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  98. ጇዒሴ ዐዑቦድ ዬሏፒ ያዱሴኣ ሦሦኢ ዑዒ ይጓግዶርዌቍ ኦውሪ ዓዣዓ ጵሽኜጎ

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  99. I am so sick of hearing that narcs are men only. Fuck off! Women on average hurt men just as much if not more than men hurt women!!! As a woman, I feel truly disgusted by the rest of female society for always blaming men for all their bullshit problems!

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