Sunday, May 29, 2011

Criminal psychopath and the PCL-R

It must be psychopath week at NPR, because a reader sent me yet another article on psychopaths. This time the focus is on the plight of a criminal who gets diagnosed a psychopath and then is denied parole on the basis of that diagnosis, as well as the legitimacy of a three hour test that basically determines your personality/predispositions/fate -- the PCL-R. The most personally interesting part was the simple explanation of the origins of the original PCL:
"Science cannot progress without reliable and accurate measurement of what it is you are trying to study," [Dr. Robert Hare] says. "The key is measurement, simple as that."

And so Hare decided to make a way to measure: a test for psychopaths.

Hare sat down with his research assistant and together they wrote down all the personality traits they'd consistently seen in the psychopaths they'd studied. Things like lack of empathy, lack of remorse, manipulation, egocentricity, impulsivity, superficial charm, psychological lying.

For each of these qualities, Hare wrote up a description so it would be clear what he meant by, say, lack of empathy.

Psychologists using the test were supposed to ask the prisoners a series of questions to determine whether the trait was present. If it was there, the prisoner got 2 points; if it wasn't, zero; if the psychologist couldn't tell, 1 point was awarded.

The test listed 20 traits to check, and so Hare called it the Psychopath Checklist. Scores were totaled at the end — 40 was the highest score, but anything over 30 certified the test taker as a psychopath.

Hare next tested his test to make sure that it was "scientifically reliable" — that two people using the test on the same person would reach the same conclusion about whether that person was a psychopath. In research settings, the PCL-R's reliability appeared astonishingly good.

Voila! The test was born.
No magic, no revelation from God, no genetic or brain scan research validating each personality trait either, and, as mentioned many times before, the PCL-R was based exclusively on his work with psychopaths that he had identified in prison using what he believed were psychopathic traits based on his work with psychopathic prisoners that he had identified using what he believed were psychopathic based on his work with psychopathic prisoners . . . In other words, circular. So although the test proved "astonishingly" reliable, whatever that means, it does not mean at all that it is valid.

The article really paints Dr. Robert Hare in a pretty good light, as a pioneer in shining more light on a highly misunderstood disorder. I don't mean to criticize him as a person, and I do believe that his work is remarkably insightful and accurate given that it still represents the very early stages of understanding psychopathy.

I do find it odd that he personally wields so much power with regard to the subject matter -- if you haven't studied with him, if you don't use his test, you're basically nobody in some people's eyes -- which gets back to my point about the cult of experts. Thankfully, NPR also linked to a few other experts weighing in on the PCL-R. Here are some selections (all direct quotes):
  • By foregrounding intrinsic evil, [the concept of] psychopathy marginalizes social problems and excuses institutional failures at rehabilitation. We need not understand a criminal's troubled past or environmental influences. We need not reach out a hand to help him along a pathway to redemption. The psychopath is irredeemable, a dangerous outsider who must be contained or banished. Circular in its reasoning, psychopathy is nonetheless alluring in its simplicity. . . . Although modern psychopathy is more nuanced than its 19th century ancestor, diagnosing it remains an essentially subjective task.
  • Thanks to tools like the PCL-R, instead of wasting limited resources on a few bad apples, the justice system can focus those resources on the majority of offenders -- those who can profit from a second chance and are, more often than not, motivated to change.
  • [E]xperts disagree the most on the personality component of the PCL-R, perhaps because scoring it involves much more subjective judgment than does the criminal history component. Moreover, existing research suggests it is the criminal history component of the PCL-R -- not the (less reliable) personality component -- that is most helpful in identifying those likeliest to commit future crimes.
Does the PCL-R just measure the tendency of someone to re-offend by (gasp) asking them their criminal history? Very forward thinking, very groundbreaking.

67 comments:

  1. In John Ronson's piece in the Guardian he tells how he met Hare and was, at first a convert, but as time progresses he seem more sceptical.

    Link to story below.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/may/21/jon-ronson-how-to-spot-a-psychopath

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  2. Excellence is my only sin.

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  4. Everybody here is stupid.

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  5. Correction, everybody except Sparklebug. That's if I'm not a sociopath or something. If that's the case she's stupid too.

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  6. http://www.fisheadmovie.com/

    Check that out.

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  7. http://www.fisheadmovie.com/watch1

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  8. "Psychologists using the test were supposed to ask the prisoners a series of questions to determine whether the trait was present. If it was there, the prisoner got 2 points; if it wasn't, zero; if the psychologist couldn't tell, 1 point was awarded."

    This is ridiculous, wouldn't you just lie to hide these traits every time?

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  9. i always lie on sych tests the shrinks r so dumb they think im all dumb an slow so they beleeve anything i say they r just so pleesed i can speak it makes them feel like they have helped a retard for the day when i smile an gaze into there eyes with my i am a inocent angel an i love u smile wich i can turn on an off real easy

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  10. STFU, dumbass.

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  11. question for people who have been institutionalized for mental illness. who hear has been thanked for their presence, and told how much of a pleasure it was working with them?

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  12. UKanHaveItYourWayMay 29, 2011 08:40 AM

    short story:

    'path: "i revolve my life around the creation and maintenance of human suffering."
    [path suddenly has a heart attack]
    ['path inaudibly mumbles...please, please....cpr.]

    me: cool, have some.
    [coldly begins stealing the 'path's wallet, watch, etc]

    nate: dude, you just let that 'path rot...nice one, lets go use 'paths valuables to buy something.

    me: fuck that, between everything 'path has, it only amounts to like.....1 dollar.

    nate: hahahaha, supposedly 'paths are all very rich and smart.....1 dollar?

    me: they profess to be such, but it's pretense, they usually have quite the run-ins with the legal system, and hence are oft-fucked by society, think bernie madoff.

    nate: sweet, well sayonara to this piece of shit then.

    me: yeah, but one thing we can do for cash....pimp this 'path to that gang of 'paths over there.
    [the gang of 'paths comes over, all get it on, and pay $500.]

    nate: dude that was one good idea, bro.

    me: i know. lets let this piece of shit live....we'll get him later and taser him, so we can keep getting $500, everyday...it's the only way this 'path could ever make decent money.

    nate: that's fucking hilarious, i think you've become a 'path.

    me: me?......nah, i figure use the 'path as they would attempt to use you.

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  13. That's not nice 8:40

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  14. Stumbled upon your blog a few days ago. It has given me a great deal of insight into my last relationship...... I guess I am the codependant who excels at usefulness.

    My ex took me to the cleaners, or I should say I let my ex take me to the cleaners all the while believing that she would gave back at some point. My own sense of denial is remarkable.

    Now, I am demanding that she repay me for all that she took. It's a lot of work to get her to the table, and I think she only shows up because I threaten her with full disclosure to anyone who will listen including the authorities.

    Now she is off with someone new. The more I read, the more I understand and consequently the more accepting I am that she is gone. My question to you is how do I get her to pay for the things she stole?

    I read an article about the Hare PCL-R test. I scored her at 30 based on what I know about her. What is the cut-off number that determines whether, according to Hare, you are a sociopath or not?

    D

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  16. Wow sparklebug, you talk about "pure justice" then talk about how we should label people who haven't even done anything wrong yet.

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  17. Anonymous said...

    "question for people who have been institutionalized for mental illness. who hear has been thanked for their presence, and told how much of a pleasure it was working with them?"

    I was thanked and even told that my presence was good for the other people because it let them see what they should do. Funny.

    "Expose her. There are several benefits to this. Even if you don't get re-compensated, you will give her the best instruction possible and gain her strictest attention. You will no longer be or feel like a victim. You may prevent others from being victimized. You will piss in her cheerios. You know it will be fun."

    O sparklebug the 40 year old woman with a 14 year old girls name and the opinions to match. What horrible advice. Look when you try to expose a sociopath you get their attention, yes. It isn't a good thing though. What ensues is a smear campaign. Where she will call you equally crazy and deny any misdoings. Sociopaths are good at manipulation. It is a natural area for us. The other thing is that so many of the things that we do seem completely rational or should I say are completely rational. Self interest and pursuing ones own goals is rational. Even when paired with a disregard for others. If she is a sociopath you aren't going to get your shit. Threats don't work because we lack fear. You better believe though that if you lay it all on the line she will fuck, manipulate, lie to, and fake whatever it takes to make you look like the evil one.

    O sparkle bug you most be bored since they no longer allow executions of retards or maybe that was in your best interest. Also, given enough time with anyone and they might start to look like a sociopath. The fact of the matter is though you've probably met plenty of us. The fact of the matter is for the most part we don't care. We are just trying to get ours. So we can't bother with you.

    So all you who get into a relationship with an S get out or don't. It doesn't matter. People generally don't identify someone as a S when they are with them. It is usually afterwards when they feel used and abused. When you have that many negative emotions running through you how can your opinion not contain a horrible bias?

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  18. kesu the sociopath wannabe

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  19. i am leaving this bullshit site for good, i think, why even waste time over here with 'paths ALL of which on the earth SUCK!!!!!

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  22. My mother was a single unwed 22 year old who was still in college when I was born. We didn't have much money. My father left 2 days after I was born. I have no trust fund. The reason I got the company is because my father failed to produce a male heir with his wife and he started to see his own mortality. I was in college at the time. When he offered to have me come work for him I knew exactly what he was thinking. So I jumped on even though he had been absent 99% of my life.

    Your assumptions are wrong. You are an idiot. Do some research.

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  23. i never got that part, where they say we fear being exposed as sociopaths. If you expose a sociopath for what he is he will just laugh at you as if to say, so what.. or punch you square in the eye.

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  24. Finger in kesu's momMay 29, 2011 03:03 PM

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    ...................../..../ /
    ............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`•¸
    ........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
    ........('(...´(..´......,~/'...')
    .........\.................\/..../
    ..........''...\.......... _.•´
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  26. I believe sparkleplug is right kesu. For all of the nice things I have said about my ex, he was afraid of bumping into his previous ex with me....I don't know why.... My only guess is that he didn't want me to hear from others what a giant douche he was. It pleases me that he has fear. (i am not a doctor, and I am not part of the O'hare family, but I think he is a sociopath.)

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  27. So you buy my being an owner of a company but not that I came from humble beginnings? If I wanted to get your sympathy I'd tell you about the beatings I endured and the worse transgressions against me.

    What I was doing was simply pointing a finger at the body part you talk out of. Your ass. You speak with no knowledge. You pathetic little charity working house wife. I know your type. My aunt is you. She is an idiot of epic proportions. She thinks she helps little under privileged kids in urban areas. She thinks she changes their lives for the better. The little fucks still grow up to be gang bangers. They are still stuck in poverty.

    You act like you know. You know nothing. Sociopaths talk here openly. You think we show that face in the real world? You think I don't have several persona's that I live and breath. You naive twit.

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  28. Refuting someone's claims in ANYTHING is easy if you have the means. It doesn't matter if it is sociopathy, or just being a shitty person.

    But seeing the storm before it hits makes it a lot easier. I've done it a few times. I generally start a smear campaign in the guise of worry about that person, and say how they're spreading lies about me, etc. so that by the time it does happen, if it does, they'll think the person is an asshole delusional mess.

    And if it happens afterward, all you have to do is look really sad, hurt, and act rationally, looking at that person with judgmental pity.

    There's this great lie purported about exposure, that it's a death sentence in a social structure. Such a claim would have to be proved, and as we read above, getting around the PCL-R, especially someone who isn't a con, wouldn't be too hard. After all, if you played your cards right you would only have one person to interview against you, and that person would be biased with a possible agenda.

    This whole exposing someone as a sociopath is a crusade created by Lovefraud, and the simple fact is that unless you get the bugger locked up, you'll never get the revenge you need.

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  29. Luminous Insect-- I suspect the one and only follower of your blog (tags: include death, dysfunction, grief and loss, suicide and poetry) is the husband who 'keeps' you. Now, there are only 8 in Texas who share his name. If I bothered to read your drivel i can say with some measure of certainty that Within five minutes I would triangulate not only the individual but your name, address household income, magazine subscriptions, political affiliation and shoe size.

    In contrast, I know nothing about Kesu.

    Now, I am simply a person (specifically an empath) stuck in traffic. If as a budding fascist, you value anonymity, you might want to dim the light on velveteen spark and perhaps put aside some of your judgement and preaching to share a story about what brings you here.

    This is a rather unique opportunity to break bread with the beasties and most people, gain neither greater awareness nor peace through condemnation.

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  33. "Science cannot progress without reliable and accurate measurement of what it is you are trying to study," [Dr. Robert Hare] says. "The key is measurement, simple as that."

    I agree with this statement for just about everything. However, that Hare would form his measurement system on such a limited range of subjects i.e. those within the prison system, lacks an astonishing amount of insight. That it would then be used as a way to dismiss people as unredeemable and beyond means of reintegration is even more disconcerting. To me, it seems that instead of writing off P/S (or any PD) types, instead, the PD should be noted, and then have the knowledge utilized in a way to reroute rehabilitation in a direction that is functional.

    It’s like a prison guards guide to getting off easy. Oh, this person checks off? Sweet, nothing to do about him. Next!

    Fail.

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  34. Insect: the ways you might define yourself are infinite why persist in choosing pain? I mean, most everyone here adores it. Who tried to squash you? Why so much anger? Why are you so interested in vengeance?

    You're right of course you shouldn't care to protect your identity, particularly if there is no loving husband and you are not a Virgo ;) Personally I value anonymity. To each his own. Beyond that I had a day on the water, wine, and was curious about what might have made you blame a particular group for so much...harm. Oddly Men in Hats was on the radio at the time and it was that drunk off a boat wet behind the ears thing where I tried to find something random out of boredom.

    A technicality Sparkleplug, but I'm Assistant Professor Obvious and I did laugh when you said hunchback, because I am.

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  36. Not feeling much today. Just to see the latest reactions posted here. What do I find? Yet more commentors seeking affirmations through the believe that their opinions, 'voiced' by their 'identities' have been the catalysts for other people's reactions in whatever form..connection, rejection, comparison, judgment.

    I don't even see how they hold any tangible meaning or benefits for the posters apart from boosting this blog's alexa ratings (the personal fetish of the author). His/her MO being to maintain an aura of exasperating cognitive dissonance as the 'neutral' psychological 'salt lick' that draws on and feeds the latent imbalances constantly needing to seek affirmation through whatever presence that have or can be projected here. The prison warden that uses and fosters mutual hate and distrust among the inmates for self regulation achieves the total dependency of all. What juicy lambs we all are :)

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  37. Keeping cry. Maybe you will drown yourself in your own tears. Then you wouldn't be in so much pain. Self-righteous whore. Keeping going though. You might challenge the wrong or right person. Who knows. Who cares. All your talk of ass kicking from someone who has probably never done anything of the sort means nothing. I'm sure you think some petty argument with a neighbor is a real ass kicking.

    No you don't brag about your deeds you just moan about your emotional angst. Then you condemn us. For what exactly? Because we cause pain? O well causing pain is a simple fact of life. Why should I feel bad about it? Every life is sustained through the death of another. Do you feel bad when you eat meat? I'm sure the animal doesn't want to die for you. Your very existence is pain for someone else. That is life. People die. Why should I care. It is natural it is what is suppose to happen. If some poor sap offs himself why should I feel bad? Their choice their decision. Lastly who are you to judge anyways. There are many neuro-typical who are doing horrid things. Is the fact that they feel bad about it but continue to do it better?

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  38. Raving LunaticMay 29, 2011 09:51 PM

    Oh dear.

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  39. Now I feel something like asphyxiation.

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  40. ^Oh? How so, Fiddy?

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  41. Mother, do you think they'll drop the bomb?
    Mother, do you think they'll like this song?
    Mother, do you think they'll try to break my balls?
    Mother, should I build the wall?
    Mother, should I run for President?
    Mother, should I trust the government?
    Mother, will they put me in the firing line?
    Is it just a waste of time?

    Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry
    Momma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true
    Momma's gonna put all of her fears into you
    Momma's gonna keep you right here under her wing
    She won't let you fly, but she might let you sing
    Momma's will keep Baby cozy and warm
    Oooo Babe
    Oooo Babe
    Ooo Babe, of course Momma's gonna help build the wall

    Mother, do you think she's good enough
    For me?
    Mother, do you think she's dangerous
    To me?
    Mother will she tear your little boy apart?
    Mother, will she break my heart?

    Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry
    Momma's gonna check out all your girlfriends for you
    Momma won't let anyone dirty get through
    Momma's gonna wait up until you get in
    Momma will always find out where you've been
    Momma's gonna keep Baby healthy and clean
    Oooo Babe
    Oooo Babe
    Ooo Babe, you'll always be Baby to me

    Mother, did it need to be so high?

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  42. Poor Fiddy :(

    Forgotten already!

    The ego-comedown must be awful, dear.

    I do hope sticking it to the bitches with psychedelia is proving soothing.

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  43. Come down from what oh little shadow of anything I post?

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  44. Oh Little ShadowMay 30, 2011 01:40 AM

    *yawn*

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  45. Anything I PostMay 30, 2011 01:42 AM

    Please stop stalking me, Oh Little Shadow.

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  46. I think you got his goat. Bye fiddy

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  47. Is that sarcasm? Thinking that I have the mean's to make something out from a pathetic incomprehensible string of words is a feat of great determination. Well, who knows, maybe I might get to like being a interactive educational toy for a retarded manchild.

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  48. Retarded ManchildMay 30, 2011 02:20 AM

    So there.

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  49. Interactive Educational ToyMay 30, 2011 02:23 AM

    Oh, Mr Manchild, won't you wind me up and play with me?

    Please? I promise I'll eduk8 you!

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  50. 'fiddy' >too much work, back to 50%. Any other suggestions?

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  51. Interactive Educational ToyMay 30, 2011 02:30 AM

    What about Drivel?

    It's a trademark *and* a new favourite word.

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  52. u r an idiot drivel!! why is my cinaman raison toste not cut in thick weges

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  53. Wow, a chain of self-interacting comments! A little entertained ... or is it Ego that I feel now?

    Anything shorter than 'drivel'? Btw you guy's still can't beat Ukan's 0% and he's a self professed dumb illiterate.

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  54. Self Professed Dumb IlliterateMay 30, 2011 02:59 AM

    fiddy iz godd

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  55. Interactive Sociopath ToyMay 30, 2011 03:14 AM

    What feeble, witless drivel by a useless bunch of prattling non-entities. You do know you're pointless, right? Just sayin'.

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  56. Interactive Sociopath ToyMay 30, 2011 03:16 AM

    *saying

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  57. Hahaha! I've never had such a reliable paraphrasing chain of responses b4. U are gold!

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  59. Assistant Prof IGMay 30, 2011 08:29 AM

    Hi buggy.  

     What interested me was your vitriol-- all the pain, condemnation, anger.  

    I was curious about you because I define myself very differently. Anything more than a brief dalliance with a sociopath's tactics (and I do like to dally) would violate some basic ideas about what it means to be me.  

    Simply I do not set out to cause pain, but am wired in a somewhat complementary way.  I also recognize a sort of natural order.  Bring your pain, if someone feasts on it, well then, at least  someone has eaten.  

    I am rather impressed with the crew.  They are seeking to know themselves more fully, to understand their reactions and composition.  Such a thing is difficult without familiars and as you point out, they seldom have the privilege and benefit of that.  I find them beautiful creatures and if they gnaw at me, I simply walk away.  Offagssing here is not only safe but to my thinking necessary.  Your proposed witchhunt struck me as missed opportunity.

    This place has been helpful to knowing who and what I am.  I have the opportunity to gauge my responses under cover and in my own time;  I find that useful. 

    In my experience, whore is not a sixth grade insult, I have to wonder if that has anything to do with why you never had kids.

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  62. Whoa, this place went to shit.

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  63. Vitriol is a strong emotion and condemnation a vivid response.   As I mentioned, I was curious who would levy  them against strangers.

    Your loss sounds extraordinary.  I had no idea why you might describe your perspective, a "40 something woman without children"* as "unique".  That in itself describes several hundred million of the world's inhabitants.   I have a much clearer idea why  you see these attributes as original and why you might choose to present yourself in a childlike way.

     I have to apologize, I really had no idea I could so toxic. (Guess that makes me an empath with Aspie tendencies.)I'd also like to thank you for being so instructive.  I am usually dmissive of people who pull the wings of bugs because they can.  Apparently I am one such person. 

    *Sorry if I got some of the details of your profile wrong.  I can't seem to click through to your blog anymore-- Hope you haven't dimmed it on my account.  My only suggestion was for the safety of your personal info.  Not really from these anons but you never know who your next employer is, or who is running local governement.

    Incidentally Kesu shared a hardship from his past you dismissed him as a liar and accused him of trying to garner pity. No one here has done that to you. You each wear your damage differently. Not sure it gives you the right to judge him.

    You're carrying around alot of  Pain. I hope you decide to talk to a friend, neighbor or get some help. Best of luck.

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