The clip below is interesting. It is relatively easy for me to think abstractly, which also makes it very easy for me to compartmentalize. As a child I used to practice abstract thinking all time. I always liked to keep in mind the big picture. Even when I was very young, I wanted to know what was going on, and I kept a mental map of where i was at all times. In school when we discussed a new concept, I would constantly flash between the forest and the trees. Visually I would practice finding diamonds in chain link fences, trying to build bigger and bigger diamonds by forcibly expanding my vision. This facility with abstract thought allows me to hold two opposing viewpoints because, as the video clip makes clear, at a certain level of abstraction it all collapses. When I first learned about the distortions that occur on maps of the world vs. globes, I found it fascinating: you take three dimensional concepts and try to represent them in a two dimensional world, but it never looks quite right. Similarly, I don't think I have ever believed that there is such things as a completely accurate truth for anything. It is not that I believe that truth is relative because I do think there is absolute truth. We just have a flawed ability to perceive it or completely comprehend it.
pretty cool. it reminds me of Flatland by Edwin Abbott Abbott.
ReplyDeleteit is not that i believe that truth is relative because i think there is absolute truth, we just have a flawed ability to perceive it or completely comprehend it.
ReplyDeletethe flawed ability being that we are not god. :)
If this absolute truth cannot be absolutely perceived, then how can we know it is absolutely true? Or is this one of those truths that can only be perceived thru the eye of faith? In other words, we can only see it if we believe it first?
ReplyDeleteyes! but it's still a relative truth. we can perceive only relative truths.
ReplyDeleteonly god can perceive absolutely. we're limited by our points of reference. if i watch the sun setting, and you watch it rising, which is the absolute truth?
following the same logic, if we were to meet, you would form your own truth about me, which might be different from my friend's or neighbour's. but only i know the absolute truth of me.
or maybe not, ha.
"only god can perceive absolutely. we're limited by our points of reference. if i watch the sun setting, and you watch it rising, which is the absolute truth?"
ReplyDeleteThat's cool Zoe:)
Grace
Zoe said, “only god can perceive absolutely.”
ReplyDeleteWell I say god doesn’t perceive absolutely. So there!!!
You see? You can declare one thing about god and I can declare the opposite and there is no real way to determine which of us is accurate. For all practical purposes, there is no objective reality to which either of us can refer to settle the matter. It’s like calling nothing something and then arguing about nothing’s unique qualities. Funny how god behaves as if he/she didn’t exist… ;-)
That was my point about perceiving absolute truth. If, by definition, absolute truth is beyond all human perception, then for all practical purposes, it is non-existent. We can only know something exists by perceiving it in some way, shape or form. I say for all practical purposes because I acknowledge that things like god and absolute truth might indeed exist beyond human perception. I cannot say in all honesty that I am certain there is no kind of god out there, somewhere or that absolute truth does not exist. I can’t be certain of that, can I? But if we can in no way interact with them via perception and experience, then we can safely behave as if they don’t exist because practically speaking, they don’t.
It's fun to shift your perspective but you need to be careful where you set the default. If you look at yourself in the scope of the visible universe, nothing you do matters at all. If you look at yourself in the scope of the room you're in, the smallest descision can re-writing your entire existence.
ReplyDeleteThe interesting part about all this is that your sense of self, not of how you deine yourself but of existing, is the only real constant.
Classical physics has C, metaphysics has I.
I worry that this guy is selling bs theories to the YouTube community, but it does look scientific. However, it does make you wonder quite a bit. On the flip side, it seems to have no practical use besides mental masturbation. Which, you know, is fun and all.. But meh.
ReplyDeleteI'm actually much more interested in this discussion about absolute truth, so here I shall input:
DB:"Well I say god doesn’t perceive absolutely. So there!!!"
You sound like a little kid with the last part. Lol.
This sounds like a very very overcomplicated argument you're spinning, DB.
It comes down to basically:
1. There may or may not be OT.
2. There is ST.
3. We cannot determine OT.
4. Therefore, we must use ST.
OT = Objective Truth
ST = Subjective Truth
Objective truth and absolute truth are interchangeable terms. Subjective truth and relative truth are also interchangeable. I prefer subjective truth and objective truth as terms because they give a much cleaner contrast between each other.
Deux said, This sounds like a very very overcomplicated argument you're spinning, DB.
ReplyDeleteNot really. At this stage in my life, I believe that the only “truths” that matter are the ones that I can make use of, or the ones that have a real, demonstrable impact on my life. I can safely ignore the rest. I used to enjoy mental masturbation myself, but alas, I no longer find it as stimulating as I once did. Perhaps that’s why it sounded overcomplicated to you. I wasn’t just giving an argument. I was also providing my own personal reasons for thinking that way.
I agree with your summation for the most part. I’d only say that I wouldn’t necessarily equate OT with AT. When I think of objective truth, I think of those facts that are real (meaning operative and consistent) and therefore as true for you as they are for me. Like the effects of gravity for instance. If you step off of a roof, you will not go up. You will go down. That would happen to me and Peter Pan and Zoe and M.E. and Ukan and Grace and… That’s true for all of us, regardless of how any of us feel about it. When I think of absolute truth, I think of religion and philosophy and metaphysics. I also think of morality, divine commands from on high, karma and the like.
But in one sense, that’s just semantics. What matters is what does and does not work and why. On that we are agreed.
So there!!!
DB:"What matters is what does and does not work and why. On that we are agreed.
ReplyDeleteSo there!!!"
YEAH. SO THERE!
(You should start ending your posts with that, it makes me lol.)
But eh, it was overcomplicated because you seemed to be using a lot of words to articulate a simple point. This is a minor point for me to make, though, so meh.
TL;DR of the discussion:
"What matters is what does and does not work and why."
But eh, it was overcomplicated because you seemed to be using a lot of words to articulate a simple point.
ReplyDeleteWhat can I say dude? I’m the son of a preacher man. Verbosity runs in the genes.
SO THERE!!!!!
Mr. Birdick always is long winded. My trick is to take his first two sentences from each paragraph, and use that as his point. That's a absolute truth. So there.
ReplyDeleteYour mom doesn't have any complaints about my "long windedness."
ReplyDelete:-)
SO THERE!!!
You know I don't feel so bad about being hurt by a sociopath considering how you guys treat each other. I don't take it personally anymore:)
ReplyDeleteI can't say much about the topic without sounding like an idiot and giving myself a headache. I understand it more than I can communicate it. I will say that our consciousness seems to be the only thing that's constant..not in thinking but in being.
I think Cake said the same thing if I understood him/her right.
Grace
Grace: "You know I don't feel so bad about being hurt by a sociopath considering how you guys treat each other. I don't take it personally anymore:)"
ReplyDeleteWe're having a verbal orgy, can't you see?
Ukan: "My trick is to take his first two sentences from each paragraph, and use that as his point."
Dang, I would have never noticed you were being short-sighted. Impressive. Tell me more, Ukan B. Short-sighted.
DB: "Your mom doesn't have any complaints about my "long windedness.""
OH NO YOU DIDN'T.
Watch, Ukan will use his perceptive lens on you. Wait.. You're not a nutty ex-girlfriend of a sociopath.
My bad, my bad.
People here seem to have made a habit of taking the thoughts and ideas of more knowledgeable thinkers and passing them off as their own. Or, even more absurd, combining two contradictory concepts in order to sound deep but only manage to sound sophomoric.
ReplyDeleteCurrently, this is specifically directed at Zoe. You might want to take something beyond entry-level Philosophy. Your "teachings" might actually acquire some depth.
Lua said, "OH NO YOU DIDN'T.?
ReplyDeleteOH YES I DID!!!
Grace, 2 and UK telling me I'm long winded is accurate. It's true. I am. I wasn't offended in the slightest.
As for my YO MOMMA joke, well I hope it is obvious that I switched from making semi-serious comments to making stupid jokes. That's what we do in America sometimes. Go figure.
And yes 2, I am Zan.
DB:"As for my YO MOMMA joke, well I hope it is obvious that I switched from making semi-serious comments to making stupid jokes. That's what we do in America sometimes. Go figure."
ReplyDeleteBIRDICK BEING NORMAL? OH MY GOD.
I thought us sociopaths weren't capable of that.
DB:"And yes 2, I am Zan."
What?!
I never knew...
Side-note: I'm guessing Lua is 2 in another language, yet again?
no one said...
ReplyDeletePeople here seem to have made a habit of taking the thoughts and ideas of more knowledgeable thinkers and passing them off as their own. Or, even more absurd, combining two contradictory concepts in order to sound deep but only manage to sound sophomoric.
deep down i'm really shallow
Currently, this is specifically directed at Zoe. You might want to take something beyond entry-level Philosophy. Your "teachings" might actually acquire some depth.
currently??
Daniel Birdick is Zan??
ReplyDeleteDaniel Birdick said...
ReplyDeleteZoe said, “only god can perceive absolutely.”
Well I say god doesn’t perceive absolutely. So there!!!
no fair!!!!!! this may be stretching the limits of my entry-level grasp of philosophy but by definition wouldn't god have to perceive absolutely being god and all? otherwise he wouldn't be god would he?
but i agree, for all practical purposes, absolute truth is non-existent. but doesn't the fact that our relative truths overlap enough for us to communicate require the existence of some absolute truth? or is our communication an illusion?
I will say that our consciousness seems to be the only thing that's constant..not in thinking but in being.
ReplyDeleteyeah everything else is just thoughts, not real.
2: Lua is 2 in Hawaiian.
ReplyDeleteZoe: Without an external referent that all of us can “objectively” experience, god can be whatever I say he is.
Your second question is the reason I said to 2 that I wouldn’t conflate objective truth with absolute truth. Objective truth=collective reality, practically speaking. It is too easy to get all metaphysical when you bandy about terms like absolute truth. Too much intellectual baggage.
ReplyDeletedeep down i'm really shallow
At least you're willing to admit it.
currently??
An unintelligible comment usually doesn't say much about a person as a whole or whatever changes they may undergo. You're probably just experiencing that pseudo-intellectual phase that all adolescents undergo in an attempt at establishing their individuality.
im Zan!
ReplyDeleteEven with the passive agressive snipes, sporadic flaming, and the chip on UKan's shoulder, you guys are the most collectively intelligent and wellspoken group of people I've come across. Granted Mr. Birdick and M.E. (and recently Zoe, 2 and Grace) seem to be the most consistent about it, to the point where I wonder if Birdick is M.E., but everyone contiributes a higher percentage of above average content than the general population would to this discussion.
ReplyDeleteI often notice empaths shy away from conversations like the ones that usualy take place on this site. They get squeamish when you discuss or question their morals and personal beliefs. It's a shame because those things are so fun to talk about and debate.
And yes UKan, Mr. Birdick is longwinded, but it's a rare occasion when he's simply blowing smoke.
good job sucking cock, Cake. you do a marvelous job of it!
ReplyDeleteHi Zan!!
ReplyDeleteIs that really you Zan? I don't trust these people.
Cake, don't believe the hype from the above...it's cool to be nice sometimes...I'm sure by tomorrow you'll be back to your normal self.
See my empath stuff comes out...I don't like to see people's feelings hurt.
Grace
ps watching Through the Wormhole on the Science Channel...They say God might be a mathematician. I believe it! In a parallel universe I could be a sociopath and either one of you turkeys could be an empath..imagine that~
I could be a god and you could be a sociopath and I could throw you in a blackhole, imagine that.
ReplyDeleteImposter!
ReplyDeleteGrace.
Daniel Birdick said...
ReplyDeleteZoe: Without an external referent that all of us can “objectively” experience, god can be whatever I say he is.
so we're making the same point really though you seem to object to my use of the word god. :)
Your second question is the reason I said to 2 that I wouldn’t conflate objective truth with absolute truth. Objective truth=collective reality, practically speaking. It is too easy to get all metaphysical when you bandy about terms like absolute truth. Too much intellectual baggage.
maybe so. i see objective truth as shared reality, like you, but it's still skewed by perception. i see absolute truth as what is really there. we think of one reality but there are really two.. perceived reality and an absolute one.
if we can't sense it in anyway or interact with it, then it doesn't exist, as you already pointed out. so only perceived reality can exist for us. and since we each perceive uniquely there is no absolute truth, only a shared reality based on whatever beliefs we subscribe to.
we experience reality through our senses so we know that there is something out there, but what we experience is limited by our senses so we don't what it actually is. we are part of absolute reality but exist mentally as individuals in perceived reality. i guess that's where it gets all weird and metaphysical. we don't really know how we're a part of absolute reality. but we're in it.
no one said...
ReplyDeleteAn unintelligible comment usually doesn't say much about a person as a whole or whatever changes they may undergo. You're probably just experiencing that pseudo-intellectual phase that all adolescents undergo in an attempt at establishing their individuality.
are you old and jaded, no one? it must suck to die before you're dead.
are you old and jaded, no one? it must suck to die before you're dead.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your concern, Zoe, but better to be old and jaded than young and ignorant.
Good play no one.
ReplyDeleteignorance is bliss.
ReplyDeleteLMFAO!
ReplyDeleteIf you are constantly creating your own reality aren't you susceptible to self-delusion? Might you think you are in a good situation because you "feel" it is right? Can't you be making a mistake and get screwed by your own self? I'm only asking because I'm sure I've done it and felt foolish after realizing that my amazing truth, which was enjoyable in the moment, came to fuck me in the ass when the real truth reared its head.
ReplyDelete