Tuesday, March 9, 2010

Double standard for empathy

Some of my readers have wondered how it can be possible to hurt a sociopath's feelings. In other worlds, given that sociopaths seem so calloused and unemotional, how can their sudden bouts of moodiness and hurt feelings be reconciled with their general icy, insensitive demeanor?

Sociopaths tend to have a double standard for lack of empathy, manipulation, bluntness, lack of manners, and generally people's inability to conform to social norms to avoid becoming a boorish leech. I am known for being very frank and upfront with people, calling things as I see them with little to no attempt to use tact, but i can get very offended when normal people do the same thing back to me. They don't do it right (without the same charm, insight, timing, or finesse), and to me it means something different than when I do it -- typically I do it with an intention to hurt. I suppose a good analogy is how the meaning and context behind a white person calling a black person "nigger" is very different than a black person calling another black person the same thing.

If you're in a seemingly loving relationship with a sociopath and he reacts with a lack of empathy at something you have said, it is probably because he is unaware of the need for empathy, or he is trying his hardest but is still coming up short, or he would try but he is too tired, or at the worst, he simply cannot be bothered to summon up the emotional reaction you seek. When people react that way to him, he correctly recognizes that there is latent hostility in the behavior. He knows how normal people treat each other. If you don't treat him that way, he will wonder why (and probably assume the worst).

I don't cry myself to sleep about people hurting my feelings or otherwise being insensitive to me -- I'm sure I deserve it most of the time. But if people are wondering how or why sociopaths could be offended by behavior that the sociopaths themselves seem to engage in almost daily, I think it is a little more complicated than a case of being able to dish it out, but not take it.

33 comments:

  1. I see what you mean but Id like to add that my take on this also is that sociopath's CAN feel, but only for themselves. They can feel very sorry for themeselves, lonely, isolated, insulted, etc. And many have a great deal of insight into the fact that who or "what" they are causes these very things, yet they are (most of them) incapeable of any lasting change. They can be very hurt indeed, if it bursts their bubble of the perfect image they have of themselves.
    PS-Thanks for the Sociopath song of day posts, u know how much I love them..Angie!
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  2. Father DearestMar 9, 2010 06:57 AM
    My wife (that's right, she's my wife now) knows how to make me feel upset, and the best way to do that is to ignore me and to be impervious to anything I say or do. In that respect I'm very childish.
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  3. I read this post with great interest. The (female) sociopath I know is quite good at pushing emotional buttons. Before I had realized that she is indeed a sociopath, she said something to me so distasteful about me and my adult son that I was absolutely furious. And interestingly she said it without any emotion whatsoever. I told her that anyone who would believe anything close to what she was saying was truly insane and what she said was absolutely disgusting. And I told her she totally pissed me off. As angry as I was, she reacted with 'I know you're pissed off, I'm just putting this out there'. No emotion. I apparently didn't hurt her feelings. That I will say was the last time I ever wanted to be with this person in any way whatsoever. What her goal was I have no clue.
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  4. Hi I can absolutely relate to this. I started giving the sociopath that works with me exactly the same treatment he gave me and other unsuspecting women, including exposing him to colleagues. He is running around complaining that he is so hurt and disappointed yet he had no problem doing this to me! what is with that? it seems to me that they are good at dishing it out but they can handle it themselves?

    M
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  5. This post was really enlightening for me. My ex used to tell me all the time "you're so angry." I never understand that until now. I suppose in his mind he could not rationalize my emotional feelings of the hurtful things he did. My backlash to his actions were not logical to him. And yes, now that I think about it, many times my reaction was inspired by a desire to make him feel as hurt as I did.

    This made me "an angry person" in his mind.

    Interesting.
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  6. Your ex may or may not have been hurt; an effective way of controlling people is to convince them that their feelings of anger or hurt are ridiculous and childish, as a way of ensuring they won't question the actions one may have committed to bring about said emotions.
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  7. i am pretty sure it is not the feelings that are hurt, it is the game. if i tell a lie and am caught, i react in an angry way and turn it around on the person. how dare you not trust me? why would you do this? etc etc....then the person ends up apologizes for even doubting me. my feelings arent hurt that i was caught but i'm pissed that all the groundwork i just set up may be in danger....so i just don't feel safe.
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  8. i could be wrong but it seems that in possibly many cases, people with S traits are reactive to untruths in the moment.
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  9. Second time on this website. Found it two weeks ago and finally found the right time and mood to visit again. For my first post (I hope more come in the future), I just wanted to state that I am incredibly appreciative to all of the contributors, with special thanks to "me" the blogger.

    I feel like this is the first time in my life I've had any form of therapy for what I now know is sociopathy.

    Thank you.
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  10. aspie....

    is it really an untruth? i mean it is 'my' reality...a reality that i have created for my 'victim.' what i have been considering lately is, if it is a game that i have to win, am i really winning in the end? "cheaters never win" and i get that statement, am i cheating to win? is it a win at all? or can i consider it a win if it is my reality? i mean isnt the reality the most important? if there is no real win, does it become boring?
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  11. when people react that way to him, he correctly recognizes that there is latent hostility in the behavior. he knows how normal people treat each other. if you don't treat him that way, he will wonder why (and probably assume the worst)

    It's useful for anyone to know how to recognize hostility or passive aggression in order to weed out potential threats/interlopers. Though, there's a difference between recognizing intent and actually being affected by it. My reactions toward hostility are more of a strategic move rather than one based on having been hurt or offended.

    Outward displays of anger are chiefly used to intimidate and establish an external semblance of self-dignity and pride to the "offender", while sadness/tears are used as a method of gaining sympathy and guilt. But, then there are other times where I am genuinely irritated, though that has less to do with feeling hurt than it does with being frustrated when things don't go according to plan.
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  12. hi sociogirl

    what i meant, and maybe you understood and im not getting it, is, that people with s traits are excellent readers of people, they can see what motivates people, and often these things are delusions, untruths. And I think the s traited react to these often with strategy to achieve an ends.
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  13. I don't really get my feelings hurt, but I get angry and frustrated. I won't mope around if someone calls me a fat, bald loser, even if I was one. I might get angry with them for thinking they're entitled to treat me that way, but that's it. In my mind, I'm entitled to treat others however I want, because I always have a reason for everything I do. That reason is justification enough for me. Other people's reasons seem shallow, fake, and misguided to me, so their mistreatment always seems arrogant, stupid, and completely unjustified. I guess it feels like a homeless guy telling me I'm not working hard enough, even if they're right.

    In my mind, I'm the only judge. Everyone else is a monkey until they prove otherwise, if they ever do. That includes people who are smarter than I am. When people prove themselves to me, I can take their criticisms to heart without any ill feelings at all. Actually, I usually feel grateful that they'd risk telling me something that might piss me off.

    Mind you, the above only applies if I think they actually mean it. The behavior has to be abnormal for their baseline attitude, or else it's just noise. Someone who obviously thinks everyone is dumb, calling me dumb with the level of intensity I'd expect from them, wouldn't really phase me, even if they've never overtly called anyone dumb before.
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  14. aspie....i think tho that one with S traits can see through what others think they are hiding about themselves. we can see their true state. the ugly truth. i believe that is why we tend to be "more intelligent" than others. we can read people, see facial expressions (in a microsecond) and read body language and just completely see to the root of a person.

    no one likes to hear the truth, but if you would walk up to someone and completely analyze them to their face and give them what you see, they are astounded at how you even knew that about them. i can say the nice flattering things to inflate the persons ego or if i don't like them completely deflate them as a person (which i sometimes enjoy doing) but for the most part, i go for the flattery because it gets me further.
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  15. @sociogirl - i'm curious how your ability to read and use that information is different than an empaths? i'm not a gifted empath, but i can pretty reliably read people i'm close to, good traits and bad. and could i use that info to hurt? i'm pretty sure my husband would say that i used to use it all the time when we fought (couple's therapy, fighting fair, blah, blah, blah)!

    on the other hand, i often ask for painful truths from empathic friends because i know i need the information to grow. so what's the difference between empaths and sociopaths in this skill?

    -Laine
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  16. I think this reading ability just comes with awareness. When you are present in the moment, you see what happens in the moment. It's like everything is slowed way down and one can see logical flows. You can see how people look at you and influence it rapidly in instant response with a simple designed look back.

    I believe for many the truth is often painful. One of the reasons this is is because we often may be somewhat responsible for our suffering or issues or whatever and it's the last thing anyone with a well defended ego wants to hear.
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  17. awareness....yes. but i also know many are not as aware. their time doesn't slow down to know their next few moves...they are not aware what their companion is thinking and feeling and they are not zoning in on the weakness of others waiting to play their game. many are not bored with the usual crowd (friends) and they are not waiting to indulge themselves in a tangled web for pure enjoyment.
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  18. so it sounds like what you are describing is a kind of awareness with purpose or direction and a view based off of it
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  19. it seems that people with S traits have trust issues... i can relate to that

    sociogirl, i recall u said in another post that you have always been the way you are

    so you have never had any traumatic experiences or been abused/victimized right?
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  20. me said....

    "but if people are wondering how or why sociopaths could be offended by behavior that the sociopaths themselves seem to engage in almost daily, i think it is a little more complicated than a case of being able to dish it out, but not take it."

    maybe it is because an S is reacting to an Ns defended construct while the N is reacting to the Ss prying and illuminating. So to the S, the N is insulting when the N says you are doing this and that and you suck because to the S, this illuminating makes sense and it has truth.. so to the S the N is just mad at having been exposed and is acting like a brat, maybe.
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  21. so the only difference between Ns and Ss being aware is that Ss intend to use their awareness for self gain?

    i'm curious that it seems many posters assume Ns never scheme or manipulate. i think this gets to the core of my confusion of what defines a sociopath. many behaviors i see described are things i've done, and i in no way see myself as an S. i'm wondering what is technically sociopathic and what's just intelligent people dealing with the general population.

    could an S also be angered when their tactics are used against them because it indicates that they read the situation wrong, that maybe they weren't the smartest kid in class at that moment?
    -Laine
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  22. aspie, no i have never been traumatized or abused.

    laine...heres the thing...imagine a game of chess...can u make the winning move right away or do u figure out your moves as well as your opponents? i read my person, find strengths and weakness' then from there see what angle i will take. when an N person is manipulating we'll say at work...u want to manipulate your coworker (competetion) so that you will get the promotion then the N is done with that person.

    what i do is very calculated and takes time and dedication and its only for i guess entertainment purposes rather than personal gain on my part.
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  23. @sociogirl...so to me it sounds like (reads like, whatever) the main difference is motivation? I would manipulate a situation to get on a preferred team or sit next to a certain guy or get a better job assignment - just a few examples. but you would manipulate the situation just for giggles?

    which brings me to something i was thinking about yesterday...do you feel joy, wonder, awe? i don't just mean in human interactions. nature or art often inspires these emotions in me.
    -Laine
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  24. laine....i can't speak for others but unfortunetly no, i have never had a "pure" emotion. i have never had a hobby or interest and have never been (in anothers words) "on fire" for something. i remember talking to my mother about it growing up, i thought i was "defective" as a person. why was i so different from the rest of my family? then once it had a name or label, i realized it may not be a bad thing and perhaps i should become better at it, lol...so thats what i did!
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  25. what is it about parasite photos that i find SO titillating?
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  26. better yet, what is it about the word titillating that i find so titillating? wha hahahah!!
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  27. @sociogirl...does your manipulation of people or situations bring you pleasure? do you feel sexual passion (and feel free to ignore that if it's too personal)?

    i find it interesting that you thought you were 'defective'. that seems to indicate a level of understanding of yourself and others that seems incompatible with sociopathy. i thought most socios would naturally assume there was something defective with everyone else. emotional detachment is not a symptom that is associated only with sociopathy. what other things made this label feel more fitting?
    -Laine
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  28. i wasn't "sad" about being defective, just knew i wasn't like others. i didn't and don't "feel." after i realized this, i started to think about it. i had motivations for showing an emotion. even at a young age. i just wasn't as aware i was doing it.
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  29. i understand that you weren't 'sad', but you use the word 'defective', which indicates you didn't just realize you were different but that you were also 'broken' or 'wrong'. i'm surprised you didn't come to the conclusion that everyone else was 'defective', and you were the only one who could see it.

    i do think children are capable of this. in fact i think the narcissim of early childhood lens itself to this quite nicely. for instance i quite convinced myself in kindergarten that my teacher was an idiot, and i was probably smarter than many adults. of course i still think that...
    -Laine
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  30. lol funny you should say that....i didnt speak to my teacher for the entire year for the same reason. i guess thinking back now, i had many situations like that. i guess i just don't care enough to think about motivations from so long ago. i'm more here and now.
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  31. "for instance i quite convinced myself in kindergarten that my teacher was an idiot, and i was probably smarter than many adults. of course i still think that"

    how do you think and still think you are smarter than them?
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  32. @aspie - i find the general level of knowledge in the average person to be appalling. but worse is the lack of desire to learn and just *think* about something, anything. so many people are quite happy to reguritate whatever pap they've been fed by the media (or church or authority figures, even school) without ever questioning. that's why i think i'm smarter.

    i will also be the first to point out that i often fall victim to this same mistake. but instead of getting defensive and digging my heels in, i want someone to point out where i've made the error (admittedly i don't always like it in the *moment*...) so i can examine my biases.

    maybe i'm not smarter, but when i look back on disagreements i had with teachers (and others) before i had some wisdom earned from experience, i still think many of those teachers were petty and short-sighted.
    -Laine
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  33. Interesting observation. I experienced this quite a lot when I was with a sociopath. She would say hurtful things, things most would avoid saying due to their hurtful nature, as simply matter of fact, that she was just being honest. When I showed my hurt through anger, I was looked at like a crazy person and called "abusive." When I said legitimate complaints about her, she would take them extremely personally like I was attacking her character.
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