More on loyalty
A reader asks:
How can you be loyal if you are a sociopath? I ask because I'm reading a lot about sociopaths and recovery from pathological relationships. And reading that being unfaithful is one characteristic.
My response:
Good question. I actually think it is very easy for a sociopath to be loyal. In some ways it's easier for them than it is for an empath to be loyal. To be truly loyal, you have to adopt a certain reality. For instance, to be patriotic you have to be "my country, right or wrong" (to take the popularly misquoted, and I think more accurate version). People loyal to Hitler had to drink the Kool-Aid, had to adopt his reality, his world view, his everything. If they didn't, then when the going got tough, they would betray him. Is that loyalty? I don't think so. But sociopaths can be this loyal if they choose. They have such a flexible sense of self and an ability to compartmentalize that together allow them to adopt your reality or Hitler's reality or really anything they want to believe. Why would we want to do it? I don't know, why not? For me, as I said, I use it when I am trying to maintain an interpersonal relationship.
I'm not saying empaths can't be loyal. There are probably more loyal empaths than sociopaths, even per capita. I'm just saying being a sociopath doesn't preclude the possibility of displaying incredible amounts of loyalty, particularly for the "favorites" that we have chosen. There's pretty much nothing I wouldn't do for some of my loved ones -- literally. I know empaths say that a lot, but I think it's obvious why that might be even more true for a sociopath friend.
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A reader asks:
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletelol at discussing 'loyalty per capita'.
ReplyDeleteIt's easy to be loyal to people who are either influential or a consistent source of pleasure. But when they're used up, I find I'm not loyal at all. So I guess I'm not loyal.
i agree harry lime, the one that i've know could be loyal so long as it was in his best interest and he didn't get bored.
ReplyDeleteLoyalty defined by an empath? As in, never cheats, lies, or steals? No.
ReplyDeleteOft have I been with someone else, when you were with friends/at work/at home, waiting. Having drinks, drinks bought for me, having sex with other's spouses, sometimes both spouses (your doctors, conservative politicians, religious, popular, unknowns) in other cities, bars, at parties, while you were calling on the phone: leaving messages. Coming to your place after fucking someone in their car, at their house/apt., with a smile on my face, happy to see you, to fuck you and kiss you, because, "I love you."
Turning your suspicions against you, using your jealousy and anger as reasons to validate twisting your mind, mostly because I'm bored of you and your painful routine of togetherness.
Stealing your friends, your family, your money, your time, your ideas, and making them mine; with a guise of charming innocence, and subtle, honest helplessness; turning those close to you, for whatever suits my need, using your truth and a little of mine, to loosen those ties.
All of my adventures, whatever selfish want just fuels the facade of charm and makes you (and others) magically desire me more, more servile. A potent colonge (of filth) that you love, but won't admit, because you're weak, stupid, and blind.
Yet, loyalty defined by me: I will never betray the illusion, your illusion. I will stay loyal to it, no matter how brokedown and pathetic.
And, so will you, by betraying your instincts and commitments, for your addiction to me and the games I play.
Wow. You people are disgusting!!! You all should be in jail.
ReplyDeleteOn Loyalty sociopaths are no different from empaths. Both are equally disloyal and you should trust neither. Anyone who trusts an empath or a sociopath without evidence of a history is a fool.
ReplyDeleteAs far as sociopaths being willing to do anything for their loved ones, so are the majority of empaths. Sociopaths aren't the only hunters in the jungle even if they might like to believe it.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that the owner of this blog got right is that there are two main types of humans, those who are controlled by their hearts and those who are controlled by their brains. The humans who follow reason might be capable of compassion but they will not be compassionate when it puts their safety at risk. Because of this they might get perceived as sociopathic when in reality they are just being reasonable.
A sociopath is an individual who is not capable of remorse or empathy at any moment in their life. It's actually a disability rather than a logical decision. There are certain situations where empathy and remorse are in the sociopaths best interest and they just don't have it to give.
"A sociopath is an individual who is not capable of remorse or empathy at any moment in their life. It's actually a disability rather than a logical decision. There are certain situations where empathy and remorse are in the sociopaths best interest and they just don't have it to give."
ReplyDeleteAnd, that's when they fake it, right? Fake empathy and remorse, in order to disarm? I mean, it's not like they're just walking around blind and "bumping into walls"....
Interesting! It's John Douglas, the author. I have Anatomy of Motive around here, somewhere.
ReplyDeleteNow, I'd like to see John Douglas give the criminal breakdown for UKan. That would be fascinating.
Daft,
ReplyDeleteAre you changing teams - going "narcissitic" on sociopathworld?
How's the gambling?
Any youtube videos worth sharing?
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ReplyDeleteHi this is lucyx. Someone imitated me on the previous post, all that stuff about hooking and working in a shop. I didn't mind at all and it gave me a laugh too. But I did think there was a silent sporting agreement we won't imitate eachother, because if we start doing that it'll become too chaotic. So Harry Lime if it was you, it was funny and harmless (and very childish) but you are naughty and shouldn't do it any more!
ReplyDeleteI just read ME's comments about loyalty and, bless his heart, but I don't think he understands the inner meaning of loyalty very well. You can adopt any reality in which you are loyal, but the problem is that loyalty is not a theoretical thing, it only exists when it is needed, and it is only needed when there is a lot of stress on 'reality'. The thing about adopted realities is they are very flimsy. OK when the sun is shining but not so reliable when the rain is pouring.
ReplyDeleteLoyalty isn't needed when the sun is shining ME. I think you see loyalty as something 'theoretical' that you convince the other person of. I think this is another case of a really central sociopath trait and belief: that not being caught in a lie is the same as telling the truth
luv lucyx
Harry Lime said "It's easy to be loyal to people who are either influential or a consistent source of pleasure. But when they're used up, I find I'm not loyal at all. So I guess I'm not loyal."
ReplyDeleteBravo Harry Lime for plain speaking. I value you because I get it that you would not get anything out of being here to dress things up, or make yourself look better to empaths. What purpose would it serve you, since there is no way to get into anyone's pants from here? Not all sociopaths are like that though, but you are. The value for you is speaking things as they are to you, in a way you can't do everywhere else in your life. That makes you interesting to other people because truth is always interesting and fantasies and lies rarely so.
ME does try to show things in a positive light but he's still interesting because I think I understand he has some 'political' motivations. He wants equality for sociopaths in the same way gays won it. I don't think what he wants is at all achievable since the only people who know sociopaths are scientists who hate them, their victims who hate them, and their children and spouses who hate them (lol).
luv lucyx
Lucy said...
ReplyDelete"I think this is another case of a really central sociopath trait and belief: that not being caught in a lie is the same as telling the truth"
Lucy, unless you're speaking in absolutes such as, "He grabbed the money," what's the difference between honesty and a lie? Isn't it the perspective of the viewer? For example, one person might see so-and-so take the money, and honestly declare, "He stole the money, that bastard," while another might honestly say, "He took the money to put it in the safe."
What's the difference? One of them would undoubtedly be wrong. Does that make one of them a liar? Or both of them liars for speaking when they don't really know with 100% certainty what happened?
What's the difference between the sociopath saying, "He stole your money, Lucy," and an empath saying the same thing? Is it that the sociopath knows he doesn't know, and so chooses which version of the story he wants to adopt and present to you?
What if the sociopath believes it? Does it matter if he intentionally adopted that view, because he doesn't have a strong sense of self to force him to view things a certain way?
These aren't rhetorical questions. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
i like the points made by both john douglas and peter pan, because ultimately, others should have to earn your trust to begin with and it does depend on who's making the "loyalty" call.
ReplyDeleteDaft,
ReplyDeleteThat was a great link. I liked this one, too... by the same actor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o92psSmcmHo
loyalty is confused with entitlement when a sociopath.
ReplyDeletethey expect it, they dont aspire to being worthy of it.
and when they have it from you, you are in serious serious trouble.
exactly @ anonymous above.
ReplyDeletesociopaths are not loyal. they simply go through phases of obsession where they nearly worship someone. they get quickly bored and it's always about what's in it for them. loyalty at times requires self-sacrifice. sociopaths don't understand self-sacrifice, because their quest is always self-serving.
they demand loyalty, but seldom give it.
Dan Messe
ReplyDelete